NationStates Jolt Archive

For a while now, The United States has been pumping money, militatry equipment and sometimes troop into the nation of Israel. There are many Americans who wish we would stop this. I'm one of them. I mean we're basically propping them up! We don't prop any of our other allies up. Also, Israel has a very capable militatry (6 Day War), so it's not like it's a weak country. I think it's about time we cut the funds and force Israel to start standing on it's own two feet. What do yall think?

Israel pays for whatever arms they get from the US -their ams manufacturing industry just can't sustain the demand withing the country.
The U.S. doesn't prop anyone else up? please, that's laughable.

I agree.

Besides, if Isreal wasn't dependant on the US, they wouldn't have to bow down to our policies, and maybe we'd be able to make a truely Jewish state.

They can stand on their own feet already, that's not the point. The point is that they don't act like a civilised Western country should: They assassinate people, they bulldoze civilian homes, they ignore UN resolutions and so on and so forth.
The US is the one thing that protects them from having to face up to the rules other states abide by, and I think that needs to stop in the interest of some sort of peace process in the Middle East.

They can stand on their own feet already, that's not the point. The point is that they don't act like a civilised Western country should: They assassinate people, they bulldoze civilian homes, they ignore UN resolutions and so on and so forth.
The US is the one thing that protects them from having to face up to the rules other states abide by, and I think that needs to stop in the interest of some sort of peace process in the Middle East.
Agreed.

I entirely disagree, we prop up all of our allies. South Korea is protected from North Korea with American service personnel for more than fifty years solid. West Germany had American personnel to defend against a Soviet attack throughout the entire cold war. Supplies, monies and equipment are sold at discount prices to our allies for their protection everywhere in the world.

Israel is an ally, and they are surrounded by an enemy, no different than either example above.

Isn't it funny that only in the "occupied territories" can Arabs vote in free and fair elections...

West Germany had American personnel to defend against a Soviet attack throughout the entire cold war.
Hmm...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundeswehr

Whatever the purpose of the US Troops in Germany was (and is), it's not to defend Germany. For that, the Bundeswehr was available.

One explanation I heard was that those troops were a guarantee to European Allies that the US would indeed join a war if the USSR attacked. By having those guys there, and Soviet attack would necessarily involve US Forces, thus forcing the USA to get involved.

AFAIK, 75,603 US Servicemen and -women are deployed in Germany at this time. Hardly enough to defend against a few million Soviets.

Stop wasting tax dollars on Israel, or on any other countries defenses, period.
If our private arms industry wants to sell them stuff, fine, whatever. But keep the people’s money out of it.
I don’t even care if Israel does need to be propped up. It can fucking burn for all I care.

Hmm...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundeswehr

Whatever the purpose of the US Troops in Germany was (and is), it's not to defend Germany. For that, the Bundeswehr was available.

One explanation I heard was that those troops were a guarantee to European Allies that the US would indeed join a war if the USSR attacked. By having those guys there, and Soviet attack would necessarily involve US Forces, thus forcing the USA to get involved.

AFAIK, 75,603 US Servicemen and -women are deployed in Germany at this time. Hardly enough to defend against a few million Soviets.
Aren't nearly half the US servicemen and -women being withdrawn from Europe? The Economist mentioned some kind of massive withdrawal.

OT: seeing as you're into Economics too, can you recommend any good overview book on economic theories, particularly capitalism?

Hmm...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundeswehr

Whatever the purpose of the US Troops in Germany was (and is), it's not to defend Germany. For that, the Bundeswehr was available.

One explanation I heard was that those troops were a guarantee to European Allies that the US would indeed join a war if the USSR attacked. By having those guys there, and Soviet attack would necessarily involve US Forces, thus forcing the USA to get involved.

AFAIK, 75,603 US Servicemen and -women are deployed in Germany at this time. Hardly enough to defend against a few million Soviets.

What part of Europe do you think Germany is not a part of? The Americans were in Western Germany for the exact reasons you stated, AND that the Soviets would know that they couldn't invade Europe without also fighting the Americans, I fail to see how you think this means they weren't helping to 'protect' Western Germany. They were in Germany because it was next to Eastern Germany and the Wall since shortly after WWII.

Israel pays for whatever arms they get from the US U.S. Aid To Israel .... Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers

$134,791,507,200

Source: http://www.wrmea.com

Aren't nearly half the US servicemen and -women being withdrawn from Europe? The Economist mentioned some kind of massive withdrawal.
Rummy and his mates are pushing for it, they want bases closer to the hotspots (and I assume in places where they won't be questioned...like Uzbekistan), but I haven't heard anything concrete for a while. Not that I actually keep up to date with it.

OT: seeing as you're into Economics too, can you recommend any good overview book on economic theories, particularly capitalism?
Hmm, depends on what sort of economics you want to get into. If you want to prepare for uni courses, I'd recommend first-year textbooks (like "Microeconomics" by Bernanke and "Macroeconomics" by Taylor).
If you're more into the political economy stuff, there's lots. Keynes' "General Theory", various books by Mises and Hayek, Friedman's "Free to Choose" of course, and anything by Amartya Sen.

The Americans were in Western Germany for the exact reasons you stated, AND that the Soviets would know that they couldn't invade Europe without also fighting the Americans, I fail to see how you think this means they weren't helping to 'protect' Western Germany.
Oh, you just made it sound like the US was the sole protector of Germany, that's all. I just wanted to prevent any misunderstandings.

They can stand on their own feet already, that's not the point. The point is that they don't act like a civilised Western country should: They assassinate people, they bulldoze civilian homes, they ignore UN resolutions and so on and so forth.
The u.n. is a kangaroo court when it comes to anti-israel legislation. There are many more egregious human rights violators in the world than Israel, yet israel is constantly condemned. Assassination of terrorist leaders is a policy that all democracies fighting the war on terror would do well to adopt, and when militant groups set up operations in civilian homes they invite action in civilian areas. the palestinians bring their hardships on themselves.

The US is the one thing that protects them from having to face up to the rules other states abide by, and I think that needs to stop in the interest of some sort of peace process in the Middle East.

Israel is held to a double standard in this area. She is the victim of unending terrorist attacks and condemned when she defends herself. The united states should be proud that it remains an ally of Israel. American support of free societies such as Israel against terrorism and islamofascism make me proud to be an american.

U.S. Aid To Israel .... Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers

$134,791,507,200

Source: http://www.wrmea.com
Really, that much? :eek: Its not much of the US's total GDP, but still an immense waste of capital better used improving areas of the US that could do with fixing, like its public school system.

...
Oh, you just made it sound like the US was the sole protector of Germany, that's all. I just wanted to prevent any misunderstandings.

Then I apologize for that post and thank you for the clarification, I certainly did not mean to imply that the Americans were the sole protector. I have a great amount of respect for the German Military, during the cold war and now.

Hmm, depends on what sort of economics you want to get into. If you want to prepare for uni courses, I'd recommend first-year textbooks (like "Microeconomics" by Bernanke and "Macroeconomics" by Taylor).
If you're more into the political economy stuff, there's lots. Keynes' "General Theory", various books by Mises and Hayek, Friedman's "Free to Choose" of course, and anything by Amartya Sen.
Hmm well I'll only be doing uni courses next year, so text books are redundant at this point. Perhaps academic articles on it? I would like to bolster my knowledge on it and study the relative merits of each system.

For a while now, The United States has been pumping money, militatry equipment and sometimes troop into the nation of Israel. There are many Americans who wish we would stop this. I'm one of them. I mean we're basically propping them up! We don't prop any of our other allies up. Also, Israel has a very capable militatry (6 Day War), so it's not like it's a weak country. I think it's about time we cut the funds and force Israel to start standing on it's own two feet. What do yall think?


I think its better to be "propping" up a very strategic ally, then lets say...terrorists? granted israel is not a weak country, but only because we have given them aid for so much..If we cut it off right now..in a few years Israel would be no more...thats just how it is...I think that it would be the worst possible idea to stop aiding Israel..if we do..then i am moving from this country over there and join the IDF...if they let me of course :P

-1 for yes and +1 for no, i misread the question and thought it said, "Should the US continue to support Israel?" :headbang:

Anyway, Israel does pay for some of the equipment it gets from the US. I also believe in the importance of Israel as a strategic ally so no the US shouldn't stop supporting Israel.

American support of free societies such as Israel against terrorism and islamofascism make me proud to be an american.Proud?
I don't really care if you love your income Taxes paying for Israel Terrorism.. But it in a fair and perfect system.. It would be only your income Taxes and not mine.(for the foreign Aid of your Choice)

..just like It would be Fair that all the Chicken-Hawks are sent to the war first..

U.S. Aid To Israel .... Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers

$134,791,507,200

Source: http://www.wrmea.com


and thats over the last...60 yrs??? so that not too much...what about the aid we have given europe? asia? s. america? africa? what about useless spending on beaucractic crap..what about all the money we waste paying our crooked politcians? what about money we waste on lost of other crap? what about all the money we lose per year from free trade and globalization? and all you care about is one little middle eastern state? get your head out of you ass and look and see where the real problem is...The US gov't refusing to stand up to problems and just throws money at it hoping to solve it that way

first of all, you have a few of your facts mixed up. there are no american troops aside from un peacekeepers. if you would like to stop funding to israel, ok. but, if you may or may not no, israel is one of the largest exports of techknowladgy to the us and europe. who do you think made such viris stoppers as pc cillin, adware se, and others. also, israelis wrote the program to several im services such as msn and icq. they sold the program to aol. leading cancer reaserch is done there on american money. wanna die of cancer so you can save a few more tax dollars? go ahead.
also, propping israel up militarily so they can survive? first of all, the israeli military is made up of mostly israeli made weapons. the american weapons are bought by israel, we don't give them to israel. in case you havn't noticed, our economy isn't that great. we would not be GIVING away a two million dollar jet, we would sell it to them. so next time, check yourself b4 you write something at like 1:00 am

.. and look and see where the real problem is...The US gov't refusing to stand up to problems and just throws money at it hoping to solve it that waylike I said 2 min ago... the real problem is that my Income tax is paying for the tanks and bombs being used in a vicious blood-bath.. a useless Never-ending struggle... people is being killed with my Money...

All I want is a system in which we can Choose directly who get (or does not get) Foreign aid from my side...

I do not want Palestinean blood in my hands..

what about the aid we have given europe?

WHAT AID!? Aid=/=Trade.

WHAT AID!? Aid=/=Trade.


lets see we built all of europe back after ww2..oh what about heloing out in the balkans like yugoslav..in the form of military intervention..and so much other bs.

lets see we built all of europe back after ww2..oh what about heloing out in the balkans like yugoslav..in the form of military intervention..and so much other bs.
Is it still giving aid to these regions?

Israel is an ally, and they are surrounded by an enemy, no different than either example above.
Except that West Germany and South Korea were/are not serial human rights abusers who ignore every UN resolution against them.

lets see we built all of europe back after ww2..oh what about heloing out in the balkans like yugoslav..in the form of military intervention..and so much other bs.

Ohhhhhh right, the Marshall plan. Of course, in which the United States gained nooooo economic gains whatsoever :rolleyes:

The Balkans? You want to claim credit for the Balkans!
Ok then... good job you did at that rate!

I think Israel is hostage to US foreign policies more than US being a hostage to Israel's foreign policies.

Hmm well I'll only be doing uni courses next year, so text books are redundant at this point. Perhaps academic articles on it? I would like to bolster my knowledge on it and study the relative merits of each system.
Hmm, I'm afraid in early Uni courses you wouldn't be doing much debate on Capitalism vs Socialism. It's mostly things like demand curves and such...interesting, but not debate-worthy.

But yeah, try "Whither Socialism?" by Jo Stiglitz. Current, and about as radical as modern mainstream economics gets. :p
And he's won the Nobel Price, so that's okay. As for academoc articles, just have a look at the various Economics Journals. Not necessarily exciting, most of it, but it keeps you up to date with the discipline.

Hmm, I'm afraid in early Uni courses you wouldn't be doing much debate on Capitalism vs Socialism. It's mostly things like demand curves and such...interesting, but not debate-worthy.

But yeah, try "Whither Socialism?" by Jo Stiglitz. Current, and about as radical as modern mainstream economics gets. :p
And he's won the Nobel Price, so that's okay. As for academoc articles, just have a look at the various Economics Journals. Not necessarily exciting, most of it, but it keeps you up to date with the discipline.
Thanks, I'll check it out :) I plan on taking theoretical modules later in my course to study some of the debate-worthy aspects of the discipline.