NationStates Jolt Archive


The meaning of the word "faith"

Kzord
26-01-2006, 22:32
When you tell someone that you have faith in them, it means that you trust them. It doesn't mean that you believe in their existence despite a lack of reasonable evidence.

I have to wonder if that was what "faith in God" originally meant - trust in God, and then the meaning was changed after people started to point out the lack of evidence.
Legless Pirates
26-01-2006, 22:34
Ah... but can you trust something you don't know exists?
Maegi
26-01-2006, 22:37
Ah... but can you trust something you don't know exists?

I don't know that I exist, and I manage to trust myself pretty well.
Discendenza
26-01-2006, 22:39
what is wrong with believing and not seeing...like Santa....he doesn't come if you don't believe in him...
Eli Sheol
26-01-2006, 22:40
Ooooo.. Existential.
Briantonnia
26-01-2006, 22:41
Faith - the belief in a thing (or things) for which there is an absence of proof.

Like where the socks go from the washing machine when they disappear. Theres no proof its pixies with a foot fetish that steal them, but faith wins through anyday :)
Legless Pirates
26-01-2006, 22:43
I don't know that I exist, and I manage to trust myself pretty well.
If you didn't exist there would be no you to trust anyone, so there :p
Kzord
26-01-2006, 22:45
Ah... but can you trust something you don't know exists?

Erm... trying to turn this into a "should one believe in God?" thread? I was talking about the word "faith".

...Not that I really expected it to stay on that topic for more than two pages at the most before descending into an "existence of God" debate...
Kzord
26-01-2006, 22:47
Faith - the belief in a thing (or things) for which there is an absence of proof.

Like where the socks go from the washing machine when they disappear. Theres no proof its pixies with a foot fetish that steal them, but faith wins through anyday :)

Yeah, I know what the current meaning is.

The thread is simply a random speculation about whether the meaning has changed in response to (relatively) modern skeptical attitudes.
Legless Pirates
26-01-2006, 22:48
Erm... trying to turn this into a "should one believe in God?" thread? I was talking about the word "faith".

...Not that I really expected it to stay on that topic for more than two pages at the most before descending into an "existence of God" debate...
No no.... I'm just pointing out that for a person to trust some one/God, they have to know they can rely on him/God and that he/God has to exist.

Or something..... darn weed
Maegi
26-01-2006, 22:48
If you didn't exist there would be no you to trust anyone, so there :p

This is true, but what if I don't exist in any real sense, but only as a dream?
Legless Pirates
26-01-2006, 22:51
This is true, but what if I don't exist in any real sense, but only as a dream?
Then you'd still exist, but as a dream :D
Briantonnia
26-01-2006, 22:51
Yeah, I know what the current meaning is.

The thread is simply a random speculation about whether the meaning has changed in response to (relatively) modern skeptical attitudes.

I'm not sure it has. Though I see your point on the transposition of the words 'faith' and 'trust'. But I suppose its simply because both imply a belief in something. One always belives someone is trustworthy, so one has faith in that person and/or their abilities with or without proof of that 'trust'
Kzord
26-01-2006, 22:53
No no.... I'm just pointing out that for a person to trust some one/God, they have to know they can rely on him/God and that he/God has to exist.

Oh, I agree with you, but before skeptical attitudes were a commonplace thing, people would believe that the existence of God was a known fact. Thus, they might have said "I have faith in God" meaning that they trust God.

Actually, American money actually says "In God We Trust" on it.
Legless Pirates
26-01-2006, 22:55
Oh, I agree with you, but before skeptical attitudes were a commonplace thing, people would believe that the existence of God was a known fact. Thus, they might have said "I have faith in God" meaning that they trust God.

Actually, American money actually says "In God We Trust" on it.
My point exactly. If you know he does in fact exist, you could trust him.

But existance is a big point for the skeptical.
Ekland
26-01-2006, 23:59
Faith is knowing, believing, or understanding something beyond the scope of your physical sensory. It’s a lot more common then you may think, and most of what we thing we “know” is nothing more then faith taken for granted.

For example…

*Faith understood to be such*
Person 1: Do you believe in God?
Person 2: Yes.
Person 1: Have you ever seen him?
Person 2: No, but I have faith in him.

*Faith taken for granted*
Person 2: Do you believe in the Himalayas?
Person 1: Huh, what?
Person 2: I asked if you believe in the Himalayas.
Person 1: Yeah, I guess why?
Person 2: Have you ever seen them?
Person 1: Umm, eh no…
Person 2: Then how do you know that they are real, moreover how do you know they actually aren’t like say; the Andes and everyone has been lying to you? Would it matter?
Person 1: Huh? O_o

Virtually everything we read in textbooks, everything we learned in school, everything we come to know about the world beyond us and beyond this world is taken on the basis of “faith.” Besides, say the matter at hand is Zimbabwe; sure you could look at a map and see where it is but is that really different from reading the Bible? If you get off the plane and step into Zimbabwe couldn’t you just adamantly insist that you are actually in Liberia and that everyone else is full of shit? Would it even make a difference? The land obviously exists after all, or does it?

At this point it should be fairly clear where this is leading… a Tommy Lee Jones quote of course!

“1500 years ago, everyone knew that the Earth was the center of the universe. 500 years ago, everyone knew that the Earth was flat. 15 minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll "know" tomorrow.”

:D
[NS]Simonist
27-01-2006, 00:12
When you tell someone that you have faith in them, it means that you trust them. It doesn't mean that you believe in their existence despite a lack of reasonable evidence.

I have to wonder if that was what "faith in God" originally meant - trust in God, and then the meaning was changed after people started to point out the lack of evidence.
"Faith in God" usually implies both "Faith [trust] in God's existence" and "Faith [trust] in God's capability" to a Christian. These go hand-in-hand in many instances, so why go ahead and state "Faith in God's existence and capability" when you can shorten it? One couldn't concievably have any faith/trust whatsoever in God if they didn't have the faith/trust that He exists. No, the meaning didn't change "after people starting to point out the lack of evidence", because people have been pointing out the lack of evidence from the start. Even in the highly more superstitious times there were people who weren't content with "Well we have no real explaination for this, so geez, I guess it was God". Ergo, with naysayers, you have people who have faith as an explaination to them, because it's something they lack.

Whatever.....I'm starting to ramble.....too distracted. I tried. Hope you can make sense out of that.
Willamena
27-01-2006, 00:14
Ah... but can you trust something you don't know exists?
No, but you can trust *in* something you don't know exists. Faith is a type of knowing; it is saying, "I know you can" or "I know you will". Faith in God trusts in him to be there in spirit, nothing more.

For instance, I can have faith in a friend to do the right thing. He hasn't done it yet --the deed does not exist --but I have faith.
Willamena
27-01-2006, 00:17
Oh, I agree with you, but before skeptical attitudes were a commonplace thing, people would believe that the existence of God was a known fact. Thus, they might have said "I have faith in God" meaning that they trust God.

Actually, American money actually says "In God We Trust" on it.
Haha! What makes you think there was a time before skeptics? Sorry; off-topic...

Aye, I think "In God we Trust" is in the same spirit as faith.
[NS:::]Vegetarianistica
27-01-2006, 00:20
Haha! What makes you think there was a time before skeptics?

public skeptics didn't exist until very recently.
Vegas-Rex
27-01-2006, 00:25
No, but you can trust *in* something you don't know exists. Faith is a type of knowing; it is saying, "I know you can" or "I know you will". Faith in God trusts in him to be there in spirit, nothing more.

For instance, I can have faith in a friend to do the right thing. He hasn't done it yet --the deed does not exist --but I have faith.

However, you base said faith/trust on previous occurrences. IE, I have faith/trust that the sun will rise because it has done so for the entirety of my life. I have faith/trust that ___ plan will work because I understand the situation enough to know that it will work. Faith was never about lack of proof, it was originally extrapolation from proof.
[NS]Simonist
27-01-2006, 00:27
Vegetarianistica']public skeptics didn't exist until very recently.
Absolutely untrue. They were just publically executed and/or shamed until very recently.
Kamsaki
27-01-2006, 00:28
When you tell someone that you have faith in them, it means that you trust them. It doesn't mean that you believe in their existence despite a lack of reasonable evidence.

I have to wonder if that was what "faith in God" originally meant - trust in God, and then the meaning was changed after people started to point out the lack of evidence.
It has been argued that part of Jesus's impact was designed to challenge and redefine that. In his time, faith in God would probably have been commonly a complete trust in the eventual liberation of the people of Israel from under their oppressors by His hand. In comes said liberator with the message "Sorry, it's not going to happen if all you do is sit back and wait"; promptly getting himself killed in proof of his point.

A little uncertainty does wonders for persuading people to engage constructively. Without it, people refuse to accept anything other than what they already think. I think that's in essence the difference between faith and trust. To have faith is a rational approach to a question; to believe that something is true, but to engage in this belief and constantly explore it in full understanding of its uncertain nature. On the other hand, to trust is an emotional belief in the truth in something, and as such is a stronger conviction, but somewhat inflexible to minor variations.
Melkor Unchained
27-01-2006, 10:28
Faith is and always has been "belief in the absence of evidence"--not so much 'proof' as one person suggested earlier--since 'proof' presupposes some sort of relationship between the thing being proven and reality itself [and a number of people have 'faith' in things that supposedly exist oustide of reality, such as God, who is therefore beyond the realm of 'proof' in the first place].

When you say that you "have faith" in someone the meaning is still the same; that you believe in one's ability to overcome or accomplish without having seen firsthand that the person is actually capable of whatever act you're putting faith in her for.

If, on the other hand, you have some previous knowledge of one's capabilities, saying you "have faith" in them is something of a misnomer [albeit an excusable one, since its use is usually pretty non-specific], a more meaningful and accurate way of putting it would be "I trust your abilities."
BackwoodsSquatches
27-01-2006, 11:08
what is wrong with believing and not seeing...like Santa....he doesn't come if you don't believe in him...


Thats becuase Santa isnt real either.


or:

(Alternate post)

Niether do middle aged men without viagra.