NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060126/ts_nm/mideast_dc_64;_ylt=AhibsRP8EDi_nFkRTKlDAcQUvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

The Israelis have made great moves towards peace the past few years. A cease fire was signed and the prospect was there for 2 states living side by side.

The Palestinian people damned themselves to living under perpetual war when they decided to get rid of the Mahmoud Abbas and his peaceful government. Instead they elected the Hamas, a terrorist organization that directly targets women and children by bombing buses, discos, and malls. The Palestinian people are no longer 100% innocent in my mind. They are terrorist sympathizers supporting a group that has been recognized as a terrorist organization by most of the civilized world.

You can't blame Israel for this. People talk about the occupation. It is still debatable that the occupation is legal (it was won in a war started by the Arabs so Israel has a right to keep it anywyas.) And even more importantly, Olmert, the new Israeli PM has hinted he would pull out of the West Bank similar to the moves Sharon made in Gaza. With Hamas running the show, you can bet the ranch that the pullout won't occur, especially when Hamas's goal is the destruction of Israel.

The Palestinians will have some tough years ahead. I really feel sorry for those who voted for Abbas and Peace. They don't deserve any of the hell that will come as a result of Hamas bringing war to Israel and Israel's sure response. But, it is not Israel that has condemned them, it is their fellow Palesetinians. I will say though I feel no sympathy for those who voted for Hamas. I say let Israel give those people hell.

Only thing we can do is hope and pray that something good comes out of this.

Consider that maybe the people are desperate and see Hamas as a source to get rid of the occupiers, plus in their eyes it would force Israel to listen to a group that has been making a statement for years.

Besides, Sinn Fein had the IRA for years as its militant base, and now look at how much progress has been made.

Consider that maybe the people are desperate and see Hamas as a source to get rid of the occupiers, plus in their eyes it would force Israel to listen to a group that has been making a statement for years.

Besides, Sinn Fein had the IRA for years as its militant base, and now look at how much progress has been made.

Even though Israel has been pulling out of the so-called occupied territory? Refresh my memory! Who forced the Palestinians to leave?

Even though Israel has been pulling out of the so-called occupied territory? Refresh my memory! Who forced the Palestinians to leave?

Wow, we agree on something, that doesn't happen often. Much of the "being forced out" involved Isrealis buying land from Palestinians. Purchasing, mind you, not driving them out. I believe someone mentioned on another thread the millions of Israeli Arabs that get along just fine?

Consider that maybe the people are desperate and see Hamas as a source to get rid of the occupiers, plus in their eyes it would force Israel to listen to a group that has been making a statement for years.

Besides, Sinn Fein had the IRA for years as its militant base, and now look at how much progress has been made.
Sinn Fein and IRA never wanted to destroy England. You don't negotiate and compromise with a group that wants to exterminate you. Electing Hamas has doomed the Palestinian people to greater poverty and more violence long into the future. 50% unemployment will look like prosperity when nations begin to cut funding to the Palestinians because nobody wants to fund a terrorist organization like Hamas.

Wow, we agree on something, that doesn't happen often. Much of the "being forced out" involved Isrealis buying land from Palestinians. Purchasing, mind you, not driving them out. I believe someone mentioned on another thread the millions of Israeli Arabs that get along just fine?

Yep yep and not to mention it was the ARAB WORLD that told them to leave Israel so that they could attack it. I guess they didn't want to clean up their mess afterwards.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060126/ts_nm/mideast_dc_64;_ylt=AhibsRP8EDi_nFkRTKlDAcQUvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

The Israelis have made great moves towards peace the past few years. A cease fire was signed and the prospect was there for 2 states living side by side.

The Palestinian people damned themselves to living under perpetual war when they decided to get rid of the Mahmoud Abbas and his peaceful government. Instead they elected the Hamas, a terrorist organization that directly targets women and children by bombing buses, discos, and malls. The Palestinian people are no longer 100% innocent in my mind. They are terrorist sympathizers supporting a group that has been recognized as a terrorist organization by most of the civilized world.

You can't blame Israel for this. People talk about the occupation. It is still debatable that the occupation is legal (it was won in a war started by the Arabs so Israel has a right to keep it anywyas.) And even more importantly, Olmert, the new Israeli PM has hinted he would pull out of the West Bank similar to the moves Sharon made in Gaza. With Hamas running the show, you can bet the ranch that the pullout won't occur, especially when Hamas's goal is the destruction of Israel.

The Palestinians will have some tough years ahead. I really feel sorry for those who voted for Abbas and Peace. They don't deserve any of the hell that will come as a result of Hamas bringing war to Israel and Israel's sure response. But, it is not Israel that has condemned them, it is their fellow Palesetinians. I will say though I feel no sympathy for those who voted for Hamas. I say let Israel give those people hell.

If Isreal has made stept towards peace, why are non jewish Isrealies not allowed to own land, one would think that a people that were the main target of the holcoast[6million jews were killed in death camps, and about 5 million gypses, and other not wanted groups, not that the gypses got a state]

Not that I support Hamas, who I consider looneys, but this thing Isreal does is like, a child that was raped in his childhood, grows up, and him self becomes a sexual preditor...

A lot of more Palestinians have been killed by terror then Isrealies, like the killings outside Beirut, civilians might I ad, and is it not far worse to live in a refugee camp, and get killed by tanks, then having a minimum chance of someone blowing him self up in the Bus..

Just a tiny few remarks:

- Israel didn't move a finger towards more peace. The evacuation of Gaza was a lure, they built more colonies in West Bank that what they disbanded in Gaza. Israel didn't stop bombing palestinian terrority, razing houses, on a very regular basis, even inside Gaza.

- Israel occupation is illegal according to international law. The wall was declared illegal by the international court, and several UN decisions (including some from the Security Council) require Israel to step back behind the "green line".

- The occupation policy, the checkpoints, the wall, the constant bombing, ... created a lot of misery inside Palestine. Most of the palestinian voted for the Hamas didn't do it because they support the Hamas completly, but because the Hamas is helping the poors (with money coming from... Bush's friends, the Saudi).

That said, it's a very sad day to say the Hamas coming into power. But the primary guilt is on Israel's governement. As long as they'll continue their occupation, terrorism will exist, and both Israeli and Palestinian will pay the price of blood :(

Even though Israel has been pulling out of the so-called occupied territory? Refresh my memory! Who forced the Palestinians to leave?
No one force the Palestinians to leave. In fact thousands stayed, their decendents are the 1 million "Israeli Arabs." (note how no one calls them Palestinians because it makes the PLO look bad.)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060126/ts_nm/mideast_dc_64;_ylt=AhibsRP8EDi_nFkRTKlDAcQUvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

The Palestinian people damned themselves to living under perpetual war

israel was created after ww2 for reparations, as far as i'm concerned. from what i've read they took palestinian land to form it. from what i've read the USA supports israel monetarily as well as in every other way, including militarily. from what i've read that means that israel is backed by the USA and palestine is therefore considered ruthless. israeli "troops" and palestinian "gunmen." iow, i think Americans are pretty much brainwashed about the whole thing. :cool:

That said, it's a very sad day to say the Hamas coming into power. But the primary guilt is on Israel's governement. As long as they'll continue their EXISTANCE, terrorism will exist, and both Israeli and Palestinian will pay the price of blood :(

I fixed something for you. Hamas's stated goal is the destruction of Israel and the Jewish people. Pulling out of "occupied" territories won't do shit to stop terrorism.

No one force the Palestinians to leave. In fact thousands stayed, their decendents are the 1 million "Israeli Arabs." (note how no one calls them Palestinians because it makes the PLO look bad.)
But why are they not allowed to own land?

Wouldn't be easier if were all ISrealies, but of different religion, BUT
had the same right, SOMETHING that the palestinians don't have today..

And besided white supremcists all hate you for your middle eastern appearence, be it not better to unite? And then also be stronger against other middle eastern places, like IRAN

I have to say that Hamas have been dehumanised by the Western media.

"But, it is not Israel that has condemned them, it is their fellow Palesetinians. I will say though I feel no sympathy for those who voted for Hamas. I say let Israel give those people hell."

You're no worse than Hamas are then, are you?

"Mahmoud Abbas and his peaceful government"

Avoiding the fact that it is completely corrupt and in bed with the Israeli govt.

Moreover, what isn't portrayed in the Western media is that Hamas has tryed to set up a welfare system for its people and genuinely look after them. Also, be careful not to fall into the trap that there is only one Palistinian liberation force in existence.

You can't blame Israel for this. People talk about the occupation. It is still debatable that the occupation is legal (it was won in a war started by the Arabs so Israel has a right to keep it anywyas.)
International law does not grant a victorious nation the right to hold on to occupied territory, regardless of who started the war. UN resolution 242 (passed after the Six Day War) states explcitly that "the acquisition of territory by war" is inadmissable.

And even more importantly, Olmert, the new Israeli PM has hinted he would pull out of the West Bank similar to the moves Sharon made in Gaza.
When? How much of the West Bank? Back to the (legal) 1967 borders?

With Hamas running the show, you can bet the ranch that the pullout won't occur, especially when Hamas's goal is the destruction of Israel.
Isn't that convenient!? The peace process drags on and on for years, while Israeli settlements continued to grow, a territorial settlement is offered which reneges on what was already agreed, civilians are targeted in large numbers, entire Palestinian neighbourhoods are bulldozed every so often, a huge wall is built splitting communities and cutting people of from their livelihoods .... and the Palestinian people get so fed up that they (predictably) turn to a more radical government to sort their grievances out.

.... and then Israel can say "the Palestinian government is terrorist ... we don't have to pull out of the occupied territories after all"!

And besided white supremcists all hate you for your middle eastern appearence, be it not better to unite? And then also be stronger against other middle eastern places, like IRAN
How can they unite? The Muslims want to kill the Jews, and the Jews want to live. It is as simple as that when you get to the root of the problem. Don't tell me the bullshit that it is the occupation that is why the Jews are under attack.

The Palestinians organized pogroms against the Jewish population in the 19th century. They really started gaining momentum in 1880. The Jews who lived there had BOUGHT land. They didn't take it, they bought it and owned the deeds, yet they were massacred. The pogroms continued to grow and eventually you had the 1937 Uprising where Jews were murdered much like they were during Kristlenacht and other pogroms. The Israel nation was then attacked in 1947. The Egyptians fired into Israel on almost a daily basis long before 1967. The Israelis eventually took the "occupied" territories during a war they didn't start. There was no occupation and the Arabs tried to exterminate the Jews.

I have to say that Hamas have been dehumanised by the Western media.

"But, it is not Israel that has condemned them, it is their fellow Palesetinians. I will say though I feel no sympathy for those who voted for Hamas. I say let Israel give those people hell."

You're no worse than Hamas are then, are you?

"Mahmoud Abbas and his peaceful government"

Avoiding the fact that it is completely corrupt and in bed with the Israeli govt.

Moreover, what isn't portrayed in the Western media is that Hamas has tryed to set up a welfare system for its people and genuinely look after them. Also, be careful not to fall into the trap that there is only one Palistinian liberation force in existence.

Hve you seen life of Brian? Reminds me of presant day palestinian liberation/terror/what ever the fuck.. Things pf presant day...

-who are you

*we are the peoples fron of judea

-I tought you were the judean peoples fron

*judeans peoples fron!

*We spit on the judeans peoples front

-where is the judean peoples front?

*he is sitting over there!

I would think that the rampant corruption and incompetence of the Fateh party drove people towards the Hamas more than the Israeli occupation factor.

How can they unite? The Muslims want to kill the Jews, and the Jews want to live. It is as simple as that when you get to the root of the problem. Don't tell me the bullshit that it is the occupation that is why the Jews are under attack.

The Palestinians organized pogroms against the Jewish population in the 19th century. They really started gaining momentum in 1880. The Jews who lived there had BOUGHT land. They didn't take it, they bought it and owned the deeds, yet they were massacred. The pogroms continued to grow and eventually you had the 1937 Uprising where Jews were murdered much like they were during Kristlenacht and other pogroms. The Israel nation was then attacked in 1947. The Egyptians fired into Israel on almost a daily basis long before 1967. The Israelis eventually took the "occupied" territories during a war they didn't start. There was no occupation and the Arabs tried to exterminate the Jews.

Stil its fact that some of your citizens can not buy land couse of their religion!
Or rather lack of it, you didn't say anything about that dough!

And you have not mentioned a word against europeans, even dough we have done a lot more shit against you then the arabs will ever have the means to!

And if some anti Moslem dude on the street in europe, saw a middle eastener, he would not ask you if you were a jew or moslim, but attack you based on your(i assume you have them, unless you are a convert) middle eastern fetures, like color of skin hair type etc...

You have to see further..
Arabs, and Jews can see that they look more or less the same, europeens will see that they look the same, and before you know it the world will see that they all have 2 less and arms, and one head

If it weren't for the fact that a shit load of US oil comes from Arab countries, then Bush probably would have blown the shit out of the Palestinians himself.

I ask one question to any US citizens out there, why does your government arm and rearm the Israelis, and so indirectly partially fuelling the problem?

If it weren't for the fact that a shit load of US oil comes from Arab countries, then Bush probably would have blown the shit out of the Palestinians himself.

I ask one question to any US citizens out there, why does your government arm and rearm the Israelis, and so indirectly partially fuelling the problem?

Why doesn't the Arab Street take care of the Palestinians?

Why doesn't the Arab Street take care of the Palestinians?
well.

1.Las time arab street was united was during al-saladin, after that they have sucked ass.....

2. IN all armed conflicts so far with ISreael, if you were talking about war, the other arabs have shown them selfs, as incompetentd, bad trainin por, moral, the commen soldiers hate for ones own regime.....
Also, they have been goven, second rated soviet arms, so not to pose a threat to russia later

I ask one question to any US citizens out there, why does your government arm and rearm the Israelis, and so indirectly partially fuelling the problem?
Because we don't want to see another 6 million Jews killed and that is what would've happen if Israel never got US arms.

If it weren't for the fact that a shit load of US oil comes from Arab countries, then Bush probably would have blown the shit out of the Palestinians himself.

I ask one question to any US citizens out there, why does your government arm and rearm the Israelis, and so indirectly partially fuelling the problem?

because the jews own our asses.. all our media, our government. everything.

Because we don't want to see another 6 million Jews killed and that is what would've happen if Israel never got US arms.
You never answered the thing about why only jews can own land, in the long run you are only hurting your self by beeing so narrow minded

Well, we may not like who they picked, but it was what the people wanted and that is how a democracy works! According to Mr. Bush if all countries were democracies there would be no more terrorism.. well... that was democracy in action. I guess you can't have it both ways. *shrug*

You never answered the thing about why only jews can own land, in the long run you are only hurting your self by beeing so narrow minded

Where did you get this information? Because I'm 99% sure it's false(hey, anything's possible)

Edit -
Anybody who has time may want to read the following
http://www.meforum.org/article/370

Where did you get this information? Because I'm 99% sure it's false(hey, anything's possible)
I'm sure that IDF would know that, but he doesn't talk mucg about that, and that makes it sound true, anways, I'l google it up..

Also I don't like the stance here, that is. Either support Isreal 100% or you are a terrorist...

You never answered the thing about why only jews can own land, in the long run you are only hurting your self by beeing so narrow minded


1) They won it through war, which happened BEFORE resolution 242(or w/e it was).
2) If i remember correctly, more that half of the "palestinians" are actually foreign born "freedom" fighters, so what right do they have to that land?
3)The Jews have been probably the most or one of the most persctued groups in history, it is only fair and right to let them have claim over their former kingdom.

Its times like this I wish Yeru was here to give us his insight on this situation.

I'm sure that IDF would know that, but he doesn't talk mucg about that, and that makes it sound true, anways, I'l google it up..

Also I don't like the stance here, that is. Either support Isreal 100% or you are a terrorist...

Well thats how it is anymore. I mean you are either with them or against them.

1) They won it through war, which happened BEFORE resolution 242(or w/e it was).
2) If i remember correctly, more that half of the "palestinians" are actually foreign born "freedom" fighters, so what right do they have to that land?
3)The Jews have been probably the most or one of the most persctued groups in history, it is only fair and right to let them have claim over their former kingdom.

Its times like this I wish Yeru was here to give us his insight on this situation.

I find it hard to belive that half of the palestinians are forgin born, no one would want to live under the conditons they live under.

And you defend, that jews are the only ones that can own land..

Well how would you feel if only etnich europeans, I mean we also won it through war, fought of the Huns, killed the indians, could own land in europe and north america!!!!

But i guess that would be racism, and this is not?

I'm amused by the fact that just because Hamas won the Palestinian Elections, that some people think that Israel is in mortal danger from Palestine.

I fail to see where they make this massive leap.

Perhaps someone needs to remind them that Fatah was also a terrorist organization. One that became more moderate with power. Hell, nearly everyone involved in the Palestinian Authority was considered, at one time or another, to be a member of some terrorist organization or another.

Well thats how it is anymore. I mean you are either with them or against them.

I am against anybody who encourages schoolchildren to blow up busses. I am against anybody who murders people for selling their land to people they don't like. I would hope most rational people would agree with me at least on those two counts.

3)The Jews have been probably the most or one of the most persctued groups in history, it is only fair and right to let them have claim over their former kingdom.

So I suppose that I should return my land to the Amerindians? That the non-Amerindian population of the United States should be reduced to living only a small percentage of the lands along the Eastern and Western coasts?

If it weren't for the fact that a shit load of US oil comes from Arab countries, then Bush probably would have blown the shit out of the Palestinians himself.

I ask one question to any US citizens out there, why does your government arm and rearm the Israelis, and so indirectly partially fuelling the problem?

Because they're the only democracy in the Middle East and they pay us good money.

Which puts us one step higher on the moral ladder than the French and the Russians, who only want the money.

Because they're the only democracy in the Middle East and they pay us good money.

Which puts us one step higher on the moral ladder than the French and the Russians, who only want the money.

I would hardley call Isreal a democracy, more like a class society based on religion, its like, was america a democracy when blacks were not allowed to vote

So I suppose that I should return my land to the Amerindians? That the non-Amerindian population of the United States should be reduced to living only a small percentage of the lands along the Eastern and Western coasts?


It'd be fine with me..I mean seeing as I could live where i am current as I do have a percentage of native american in me :)

From a pro-Israeli website, but nevertheless:

'Of the total land in Israel in 1997, the Israel Government Press Office statistics say 79.5% is owned by the government, 14% is privately owned by the JNF, and the rest, around 6.5%, is evenly divided between private Arab and Jewish owners.'

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_israel_land.php

I would hardley call Isreal a democracy, more like a class society based on religion, its like, was america a democracy when blacks were not allowed to vote
Wrong. Muslim citizens of Israel, and there are many, get to vote and even hold government offices. They can own property and run businesses. Israel is a pretty good example of a democratic society.

I would hardley call Isreal a democracy, more like a class society based on religion, its like, was america a democracy when blacks were not allowed to vote


How is it not a democracy? Obviously your bias against the jews is fogging your thought process. Does not Israel have a universal suffrage amongst it borders? Did it not just let the palestinians do an election..Even more i would back them in not allowing a group of terrorists to be voted into office in which would further threaten the sovergniety of the Jewish State.

It'd be fine with me..I mean seeing as I could live where i am current as I do have a percentage of native american in me :)
I wouldn't:(

I htink it is interesting that we try to put our moral ethos on a situation that we are not fully aware of. It appears to me that it is similar to two 12 year olds daring each other to cross a line etched in a field. Cross the line and I'll kick your but usually ends up with someone gettng a black eye.

Who am I t say it is wrong to fight in the manner Hamas or Israel has chose? Every major nation fights a gorilla (sp) war during any campaign. The subversion of media, the seemly random bombing of objective buildings, the endeavor to when over the minds of the opposing forces civilians.

If the civilians iin that geographic location were trully opposed to any of the military/terrorist activity that was going, they would be up in arms and taking on the fight themsleves.

Until the time that large groups of civilians are willing to grab an Ak-47 and hit the streets running, this war (if thats what it is) will continue.

I would hardley call Isreal a democracy, more like a class society based on religion
YEs that is why there are 2 Israeli Arabs holding seats on the Israeli Supreme Court.

If it weren't for the fact that a shit load of US oil comes from Arab countries, then Bush probably would have blown the shit out of the Palestinians himself.

I ask one question to any US citizens out there, why does your government arm and rearm the Israelis, and so indirectly partially fuelling the problem?
Because the Israel is a democracy, it treats it's Arab Muslim citizens well, it needs those weapons to defend itself, it helps us develop new technology, and it's generally a good ally.

YEs that is why there are 2 Israeli Arabs holding seats on the Israeli Supreme Court.


heh...but you know their bias against israel will blind them to this fact...Gosh i hate that...(even though i have an extreme bias for israel)

great, after israel dispatched yassin and his successor hamas kept their leaders identity a secret to protect him, now lets see how long they can keep the identity of the new president a secret.

You know what, if the Palestinians do any shit now it is STATE SPONSORED TERRORISM. THe Palestinians just fucked themselves.

You know what, if the Palestinians do any shit now it is STATE SPONSORED TERRORISM. THe Palestinians just fucked themselves.


hey didn't france say it would use nukes on any state that sponsors terrorism? But would they do that too the Palestinians, with a huge already pissed off muslim community in france?

hey didn't france say it would use nukes on any state that sponsors terrorism? But would they do that too the Palestinians, with a huge already pissed off muslim community in france?
I hope not - if the Palestinians were attacked with nuclear weapons, Israel and Jordan would suffer badly from radioactive fallout. :rolleyes:

I hope not - if the Palestinians were attacked with nuclear weapons, Israel and Jordan would suffer badly from radioactive fallout. :rolleyes:


yeah...actually that would be pretty bad.

I find it hard to belive that half of the palestinians are forgin born, no one would want to live under the conditons they live under.


They live under those conditions because their teachers tell them that to live there and to stick it to israel, no matter what, is being a holy martyr...and to impressionable and overly fantatic religous people, what greater honor is there than that?

You know what, if the Palestinians do any shit now it is STATE SPONSORED TERRORISM. THe Palestinians just fucked themselves.
Yep. Now the majority of Palestinians can't claim innocence when Hamas attacks Israel because the majority of Palestinians voted for them. If you blame Americans for Iraq, then you must blame Palestinians for future Hamas attacks.

You know what, if the Palestinians do any shit now it is STATE SPONSORED TERRORISM. THe Palestinians just fucked themselves.
State sponsored terrorism, so only know will the reach the level of atroceties done by the isreali army:rolleyes:

State sponsored terrorism, so only know will the reach the level of atroceties done by the isreali army:rolleyes:
Israel has been very lenient. Targeted killings instead of massive incursions to arrest or kill anyone suspected of involvement show mercy.

Israel has been very lenient. Targeted killings instead of massive incursions to arrest or kill anyone suspected of involvement show mercy.

Guess thats what happened with 2000 palestinian women and children in Beirut

Guess thats what happened with 2000 palestinian women and children in Beirut
Let me guess... Sabra and Shatila, 1982?

Let me guess... Sabra and Shatila, 1982?
something like that

something like that
The Palestinians were killed in cold blood by the Lebanese Phalangist militia of Elie Hobeika.

State sponsored terrorism, so only know will the reach the level of atroceties done by the isreali army:rolleyes:

Are you fucking KIDDING ME?
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israelpalestineterrorismchildren12913.html
http://www.house.gov/burton/RSC/PalestinianTerrorismFacts.PDF
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,96860,00.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,71044,00.html
http://www.siteinstitute.org/bin/articles.cgi?ID=news6703&Category=news&Subcategory=0
I could go on and on and on. What "atrocities" would you be speaking of that these are so far below?

I think hews and palestinaians ought to fuck each other, and the live together in the dessert and stop bothering resot of the world with this silly war









gjvflasdngersfdfds gdgfds v

wow, people are one sided here, I say at first that jews and palestinians ought to be happy at each other, couse they look the same, then you come with palestinians are all terrorist, then i have to list shit done by isreal, and then you say it aint true couse isreal is god and doesnt do shit like that, who the fuck cares, i am out of this thread, the middle east can go fuck it self.

for once i agree with you. the US media skews it to the side of israel. israel was formed out of palestine after ww2.

Guess thats what happened with 2000 palestinian women and children in Beirut
The PLO commited several massacres itself in Lebanon. So what? Nobody's hands were clean in that conflict. Let's look at how Israel has comported itself in the recent past and see how the Palestinians have responded.

1) Fake massacres like Jenin to smear Israel
2) Suicide bombings
3) Calls to destroy Israel

The PLO commited several massacres itself in Lebanon. So what? Nobody's hands were clean in that conflict. Let's look at how Israel has comported itself in the recent past and see how the Palestinians have responded.

1) Fake massacres like Jenin to smear Israel
2) Suicide bombings
3) Calls to destroy Israel

Look, these election results mean sweet f all unless the upcoming Israeli elections are being taken into account. It all depends on who gets into power on both sides.
Now you may not like it- but they voted democratically and Hamas are now their representatives. If you don't deal with them it takes away from the legitimacy of the elections and sends a very bad signal to other would be democratising Arab states.

True- Hamas needs to soften itself urgently. Only time will tell.

The DUP vowed never to talk with Sinn Fein... they did. The DUP then vowed never to share power.... they are about to. Why? Because the IRA began to soften its approach.

Look, these election results mean sweet f all unless the upcoming Israeli elections are being taken into account. It all depends on who gets into power on both sides.
Now you may not like it- but they voted democratically and Hamas are now their representatives. If you don't deal with them it takes away from the legitimacy of the elections and sends a very bad signal to other would be democratising Arab states.

True- Hamas needs to soften itself urgently. Only time will tell.

The DUP vowed never to talk with Sinn Fein... they did. The DUP then vowed never to share power.... they are about to. Why? Because the IRA began to soften its approach.
I can guarantee that the election of Hamas will cause the Israelis to elect the hardest hard liners they can find.

you're all wrong.

Vegetarianistica']you're all wrong.
No, we're all right. Even those of us who disagree. You are the one who is wrong.

I can guarantee that the election of Hamas will cause the Israelis to elect the hardest hard liners they can find.

What... you mean worse than Sharon used to be? Whats next, Satan himself?
Or maybe Michael Bolton....

What... you mean worse than Sharon used to be? Whats next, Satan himself?
Or maybe Michael Bolton....
Sharon gave up Gaza and was talking about demolishing some west bank settlements before the stroke. Nobody made him do that. He was just trying to find a way to peace for his people.

No, we're all right. Even those of us who disagree. You are the one who is wrong.

i disagree. and according to your logic, that means i'm right. :)

Vegetarianistica']i disagree. and according to your logic, that means i'm right. :)
I have no logic, therefore you are wrong. And a penguin.

I have no logic, therefore you are wrong. And a penguin.

random acts of logic. nice! :D

Sharon gave up Gaza and was talking about demolishing some west bank settlements before the stroke. Nobody made him do that. He was just trying to find a way to peace for his people.

Maybe- he might have had a change of heart- the stroke cut short any potential West Bank Plans (if it was slight of hand we'll now never know)

But Sharon was very extreme for a large part of his life. That Wall isn't exactly a Centre position. But, we'll see how the new Kadima party does. Maybe the Israelis are finally tired of constanst high tension? All societies get weary sometimes.

Maybe- he might have had a change of heart- the stroke cut short any potential West Bank Plans (if it was slight of hand we'll now never know)

But Sharon was very extreme for a large part of his life. That Wall isn't exactly a Centre position. But, we'll see how the new Kadima party does. Maybe the Israelis are finally tired of constanst high tension? All societies get weary sometimes.
The wall is a great idea. If they can't play nice together then keep them separated.

Kadima's fucked. They've lost Sharon, their only well known and charismatic member, and the election of Hamas will make everyone want a more hardline government to protect themselves.

The wall is a great idea. If they can't play nice together then keep them separated.


WTF? Did you feel the same way about Berlin? :confused:

WTF? Did you feel the same way about Berlin? :confused:
No, the people of West and East Berlin didn't want to blow each other up.

[

The Israelis have made great moves towards peace the past few years.

O thats a good one.....sidelined Arafat...have had no high level talks with Abbas, even after getting their buddies the Americans to keep Barghouti from running...more settlement building...a rush to encircle and grap East Jerusalem...

Even though Israel has been pulling out of the so-called occupied territory? Refresh my memory! Who forced the Palestinians to leave?

The Israelis. Gaza is a small area. Rather than try to protect the 8,000 settlers with 30,000 troops Sharon wanted to focus on Jerusalem and the West Bank. From the "Gross Israel" perspective it was the logical move.


Much of the "being forced out" involved Isrealis buying land from Palestinians. Purchasing, mind you, not driving them out. I believe someone mentioned on another thread the millions of Israeli Arabs that get along just fine??

6.6% according to "A Survey of Palestine, Prepared in December 1945 and January 1946 for the Information of the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry". Go look it up.

According to the US state Department, those Israeli Arabs don't "get along just fine" at all.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27929.htm


Yep yep and not to mention it was the ARAB WORLD that told them to leave Israel so that they could attack it.??

Then why were villages destroyed and the populations moved after they had been taken over by the Haggannah and not before?

The Jews who lived there had BOUGHT land. They didn't take it, they bought it and owned the deeds, yet they were massacred. .

I've mentioned a survey above. I suggest you find and read it to rid yourself of these dangerous and false notions of yours. And stop waving that flag about - you'll take somebodys eye out - possibly your own.


I find it hard to belive that half of the palestinians are forgin born, no one would want to live under the conditons they live under..

That, Sir, is because its untrue. One cannot just waltz into the West Bank since 67.


Because they're the only democracy in the Middle East and they pay us good money...

Hamas was democratically elected by the way, and it is America that has the money, not Israel.

Vegetarianistica']for once i agree with you. the US media skews it to the side of israel. israel was formed out of palestine after ww2.

Not true, unless you want to disregard the fact that Palestine was formed out of the Ottoman empire after WW1.

Guess thats what happened with 2000 palestinian women and children in Beirut
Those were Lebanese Christians who carried out the killings, not the IDF. Get a fucking clue please.

WTF? Did you feel the same way about Berlin? :confused:the berlin wall was built to keep people from getting out. the israeli fence is intended to keep people from getting in.

The wall is a great idea. If they can't play nice together then keep them separated.

Kadima's fucked. They've lost Sharon, their only well known and charismatic member, and the election of Hamas will make everyone want a more hardline government to protect themselves.
The wall was good, but Kadima has other people. The main Labor person who joined was Former PM and Foreign Minister Shimon Peres (he is a recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize.) He is well liked by everyone in Israel. I think Netanyahu will make a run at it on Likud. When he was in power, there was peace.

The wall was good, but Kadima has other people. The main Labor person who joined was Former PM and Foreign Minister Shimon Peres (he is a recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize.) He is well liked by everyone in Israel. I think Netanyahu will make a run at it on Likud. When he was in power, there was peace.
If I were betting I'd put my money on Likud winning big and Kadima not doing too well. Pity, a party killed in it's infancy. What's your opinion?

If I were betting I'd put my money on Likud winning big and Kadima not doing too well. Pity, a party killed in it's infancy. What's your opinion?
Well polls before the Palestinian election said Kadima in a landslide, this is as of about a week ago. The people liked the way the party was going even without Sharon. Ehud Olmert, the new PM proposed a possible withdrawal of the West Bank. With Hamas in power things change. I now am hoping for likud and Benjamin Netanyahu. Bibi wasn't looking good in the polls though, but Israel might go with him after recent events.

You know what, if the Palestinians do any shit now it is STATE SPONSORED TERRORISM. THe Palestinians just fucked themselves.

Hehehe, like that ever made any difference when it came to Hamas..lol

Listen, it was a democratic vote. Democracy in action. Just because you didn't like who they picked, tough!

It's not exactly like the hard-liners in Israel (a.k.a Zionists) who run for office don't think the exact same way that Palestine doesn't have a right to exist. As far as I'm concerned both Israel and Palestine deserve each other, they are in many ways made of the same cloth. Just a personal opinion, but based on an educated one.

Hehehe, like that ever made any difference when it came to Hamas..lol

Listen, it was a democratic vote. Democracy in action. Just because you didn't like who they picked, tough!

It's not exactly like the hard-liners in Israel (a.k.a Zionists) who run for office don't think the exact same way that Palestine doesn't have a right to exist. As far as I'm concerned both Israel and Palestine deserve each other, they are in many ways made of the same cloth. Just a personal opinion, but based on an educated one.
I have no problem with the Palestinians voting, but now the excuse that it is just a minority supporting terrorism can be taken for the BS it really is. This vote affirms the Palestinians' want to destroy the Jewish people (as is stated in Hamas's charter.)

Being a Zionist doesn't make you a hardliner. A Zionist is just someone who supports the idea of a state of Israel. Plenty of Zionists support a 2 state solution. That would be like me calling you a hardliner just for voting different than me. It shows a true lack of understanding on the issue too.

As for them living together. The Israelis wanted that originally. David Ben Gurion pleaded with the Arabs to not leave their homes when the Mufti told them to leave and pave the way for the Arab armies to kill all the Jews and finish Hitler's job (they actually had Nazi war criminals in their ranks for this job.) The Arabs decided to refuse to live side by side with the Jews and tried to kill my people. They failed miserably to say the least.

How does it show education on your part when you make a point that they can easily lie together when history has shown the Palestinians to be unwilling to do so. Israelis are now unwilling to do it too, but can you blame them? They've been living with the fear that one of them will walk onto a bus and blow himself up.

You know what the world needs?

Denazification. Worked wonders in Germany - no longer does anyone there believe that one side can be all-out righteous and the other all-out evil.

But that's what this entire conflict is based on. So, I say, bomb the living shit out of both of them, and then pacify them good.

Oh, and personally I think Hamas cannot do whatever it wants. There are too many pressures on it to behave sensibly, not least because Israel is so much stronger than they are.
If Netanyahu got elected on the other hand, there is nothing at all that would stop his sorry arse from living out his megalomaniac fantasies. I am a lot more worried of a Likud PM than a Hamas one.

Didn't a certain president (http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:BrQBtuCCA03nzM:jovan.ru/pics2/gwb/bush.gif) say that we will stop terrorism with democracy? How does he explain this and Iran(not that that is terrorism)?

Anyways, this just shows that that all these years of being blasted by anti-semites for "occupying" a place that is ours and the Palestinians are innocent and the majority want peace is a load of bull dookey. This isn't a minority that wants the US and Israel destroyed. It's a majority. Don't believe me? Watch the Palestinian children celebrate terrorist attacks (on Israel and the US) and get candy.

Didn't a certain president (http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:BrQBtuCCA03nzM:jovan.ru/pics2/gwb/bush.gif) say that we will stop terrorism with democracy? How does he explain this and Iran(not that that is terrorism)?

You do know that there is a Political Faction of Hamas and a Militant Faction of Hamas right?

And they have no relations with each other and have different viewpoints on Israel?

Democracy fails again.

Democracy fails again.
Why?
This is obviously what the Palestinians think: Fatah has failed, time to try out the other guys, those who would finish infrastructure projects free of charge when the PA had run out of money again (and you know where that money went).

Really, this is the result of years of the Israelis discrediting the Palestinian Authority, not talking to them, not listening to them and bullshitting all over the Palestinian people. Why would anyone be surprised that Fatah gets voted out?

Didn't a certain president (http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:BrQBtuCCA03nzM:jovan.ru/pics2/gwb/bush.gif) say that we will stop terrorism with democracy? How does he explain this and Iran(not that that is terrorism)?


I say this one is a real election, but you can't use Iran as an example. The Iran elections weren't real, they were discredited by most observors as rigged. I mean the opposition party was banned from participating so that isn't an election. It would be like claiming Hillary CLinton as the elected President in an election where Republicans and any other party outside of the democrats was banned.

Why?
This is obviously what the Palestinians think: Fatah has failed, time to try out the other guys, those who would finish infrastructure projects free of charge when the PA had run out of money again (and you know where that money went).

Really, this is the result of years of the Israelis discrediting the Palestinian Authority, not talking to them, not listening to them and bullshitting all over the Palestinian people. Why would anyone be surprised that Fatah gets voted out?

I agree with this post but it is still a shocker that Fatah won. But yea, your right in what you said though.

Hamas's Charter (Peaceful my ass)

Hamas's charter: The martyrs' oath


"Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious...The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised...

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine. The Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times...

It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned...

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kassam and his brethren the fighters, members of Muslim Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Muslim Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1968 and after...

The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: 'The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him...'
Resisting and quelling the enemy become the individual duty of every Muslim, male or female. A woman can go out to fight the enemy without her husband's permission, and so does the slave: without his master's permission...

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with...

The day The Palestinian Liberation Organization adopts Islam as its way of life, we will become its soldiers, and fuel for its fire that will burn the enemies...

The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion... It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions...

We should not forget to remind every Muslim that when the Jews conquered the Holy City in 1967, they stood on the threshold of the Al-Aqsa Mosque and proclaimed that 'Mohammed is dead, and his descendants are all women.'

Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Muslim people. 'May the cowards never sleep.'"

Hamas are no more terrorists than the french resistance were. If my country was occupied by a hostile invader I would do anything and kill anyone to gain freedom. Hamas is perfectly justified in anything they do while the israelies occupy palestinian land. even if they were to destroy all israel in a nuclear attack it would not be unreasonable because israel is the aggressor.

It is sad really because I like jews and hate islam but israel has become unspeakably evil.

We should not forget to remind every Muslim that when the Jews conquered the Holy City in 1967, they stood on the threshold of the Al-Aqsa Mosque and proclaimed that 'Mohammed is dead, and his descendants are all women.'
I wonder whether that really happened. Almost sounds like it, considering the way things were whipped up back then.

Hamas's Charter (Peaceful my ass)
The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: 'The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him...'
Resisting and quelling the enemy become the individual duty of every Muslim, male or female. A woman can go out to fight the enemy without her husband's permission, and so does the slave: without his master's permission...

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with...


So...am I reading this right? They're PUSHING for judgement day? I don't know whether to laugh or support them in anticipation of God coming down and bitch slapping the lot.

Hamas are no more terrorists than the french resistance were. If my country was occupied by a hostile invader I would do anything and kill anyone to gain freedom. Hamas is perfectly justified in anything they do while the israelies occupy palestinian land. even if they were to destroy all israel in a nuclear attack it would not be unreasonable because israel is the aggressor.

It is sad really because I like jews and hate islam but israel has become unspeakably evil.

I like your reasoning:rolleyes: So if we were to decimate the entire arab world in a nuclear holocaust it would not be unreasonable because they were the aggressor?

I say this one is a real election, but you can't use Iran as an example. The Iran elections weren't real, they were discredited by most observors as rigged. I mean the opposition party was banned from participating so that isn't an election. It would be like claiming Hillary CLinton as the elected President in an election where Republicans and any other party outside of the democrats was banned.
Ok, bad example. I never really followed the Iranian election.

I am a Zionist and believe fully in the right to exist of a Jewish state. I think that Israel was put in the wrong place: it should have been placed in Alaska. A place very few people live and not very many care about.

And I still love how everyone is jumping to conclusions about how Hamas will act. That's something stupid and foolish. We'll know how Hamas acts as the new leader of the PA, when they act. Not before.

And I also love how many people love democracy, until someone they don't like gets elected.

Posted in another thread, but it applies:

The problem of accepting a former (actually, current) terrorist orginization as a plotical entity is interesting -as much if not more in attitude and name as in practice.
We, the lookers-on should not make this transition harder by constantly declaring our conviction that such a thing is impossible. I think it is possible, though not agreeable to my sentiments, and hard to reconcile with, considering Hamas's very recent history. However, I think Israel needs to face a future in which Hamas and other terrorist groups grab a foothold in mainstream politics, and if their actions show them worthy, be prepared to negotiate with them too, despite the bloody associations tied to the very name of Hamas.

Terrorism = the continued extermination of brown skinned people by zionist scumbags. Hitler was 50 years ahead of his time.

I am a Zionist and believe fully in the right to exist of a Jewish state. I think that Israel was put in the wrong place: it should have been placed in Alaska. A place very few people live and not very many care about.

And I still love how everyone is jumping to conclusions about how Hamas will act. That's something stupid and foolish. We'll know how Hamas acts as the new leader of the PA, when they act. Not before.

And I also love how many people love democracy, until someone they don't like gets elected.

I agree with you for the most part. We'll just have to wait and see what happens. Hamas is a complex organisation, maybe they can control themselves and the palestinians better then the old PA could? And Maybe Israel will deal with them after this democratic election?

Remember kids, this is a complicated issue and one of the least black-and-white situations I know of in the world. There are few good guys and many bad guys on both sides, and both sides are guilty of horrible acts of inhumanity. Let's just hope the israelis and the palestinians can find some common ground, and maybe even peace somewhere down the road... But don't get overly pessimistic just yet.

It's not exactly like the hard-liners in Israel (a.k.a Zionists) who run for office don't think the exact same way that Palestine doesn't have a right to exist.
This is a huge misnomer. Hard-liners =/= Zionists.

I am a Zionist. Anyone that believes in the state of Israel as a homeland for Jews is a Zionist. "Zionist" is not a prejorative, it is the name of the movement that founded Israel, and most Israelis consider themselves as part of its continuing legacy. Stop this gross misuse, it is based in ignorance.

I am a Zionist and believe fully in the right to exist of a Jewish state. I think that Israel was put in the wrong place: it should have been placed in Alaska. A place very few people live and not very many care about.

1. Many people and cute seals live there.
2. People do care about it.
3. The thing is, we'd probably terraform the place and make it a Hawaiian paradise.

Terrorism = the continued extermination of brown skinned people by zionist scumbags. Hitler was 50 years ahead of his time.
I think you confused Zionists with the government of Sudan and the Janjaweed.

Hamas are no more terrorists than the french resistance were. If my country was occupied by a hostile invader I would do anything and kill anyone to gain freedom. Hamas is perfectly justified in anything they do while the israelies occupy palestinian land. even if they were to destroy all israel in a nuclear attack it would not be unreasonable because israel is the aggressor.

It is sad really because I like jews and hate islam but israel has become unspeakably evil.
Invaders? Really? Considering Palestinians are really just Egyptian, Jordanian, and Syrian squatters and as someone said, the land was taken from the losers of war.

Didn't a certain president (http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:BrQBtuCCA03nzM:jovan.ru/pics2/gwb/bush.gif) say that we will stop terrorism with democracy? How does he explain this and Iran(not that that is terrorism)?


The president was giving benefit of the doubt and hoping that Palestines want peace.

Pretty optimistic of him, that's for sure.

1. Many people and cute seals live there.
2. People do care about it.
3. The thing is, we'd probably terraform the place and make it a Hawaiian paradise.

Eh... fewer people there than there are here in Montana. And Alaska's a lot bigger, too. And, most importantly, if there were an Israelaska, it would be a card carrying member of OPEC. Now you can't hate that, now can ya?

Oh, and it would be much easier to contain the terrorist activities of a handful of the tens of thousands of white folk in Alaska than it is to contain those of the more numerous terrorists among the millions of Palestinians.

Vegetarianistica']israel was created after ww2 for reparations, as far as i'm concerned. from what i've read they took palestinian land to form it. from what i've read the USA supports israel monetarily as well as in every other way, including militarily. from what i've read that means that israel is backed by the USA and palestine is therefore considered ruthless. israeli "troops" and palestinian "gunmen." iow, i think Americans are pretty much brainwashed about the whole thing. :cool:

Did you know the United States gave Palestine over 450 milllion in aid last year ? Palestine's government is largely dependent on foregin aid to survive.. The US does not JUST support Israel (though we do, unlike Europe). and most of that land used to create the state of Israel was largely already bought up by Zionists after WW2. Though of course some land like Jerusalem(half) was taken... the rest was lost when the palestineans violated international law themselves and attacked a sovergin (sp) nation.

Hamas are no more terrorists than the french resistance were. If my country was occupied by a hostile invader I would do anything and kill anyone to gain freedom. Hamas is perfectly justified in anything they do while the israelies occupy palestinian land. even if they were to destroy all israel in a nuclear attack it would not be unreasonable because israel is the aggressor.

It is sad really because I like jews and hate islam but israel has become unspeakably evil.
No, the French resistance weren't known for shooting women and children in cold blood as they drove to the polls to vote. The French resistance wanted to liberate an actual nation, not a made up one like Palestine. The French Resistance didn't bomb busses and markets full of civilians and families.

Hamas is an organization devoted to Jewish genocide. They're carrying on the same tradition as the Mufti of Jerusalem and Hitler. In fact, Palestinian graffiti often features swastikas and other Nazi themes.

Anyone who sympathizes with Hamas is either a complete moron, or a Jew hater on the same level as the degenerate Nazi scum that civilized nations once eradicated.

No, the French resistance weren't known for shooting women and children in cold blood as they drove to the polls to vote. The French resistance wanted to liberate an actual nation, not a made up one like Palestine. The French Resistance didn't bomb busses and markets full of civilians and families.

Hamas is an organization devoted to Jewish genocide. They're carrying on the same tradition as the Mufti of Jerusalem and Hitler. In fact, Palestinian graffiti often features swastikas and other Nazi themes.

Anyone who sympathizes with Hamas is either a complete moron, or a Jew hater on the same level as the degenerate Nazi scum that civilized nations once eradicated.

Well said Drunk commies :)

Why?
This is obviously what the Palestinians think: Fatah has failed, time to try out the other guys, those who would finish infrastructure projects free of charge when the PA had run out of money again (and you know where that money went).

Really, this is the result of years of the Israelis discrediting the Palestinian Authority, not talking to them, not listening to them and bullshitting all over the Palestinian people. Why would anyone be surprised that Fatah gets voted out?
I'm not surprised, but I do believe that with Hamas in power the Palestinians will make absolutely no progress toward peace, will almost undoubtedly make attacks agains Israel that will result in retaliation like never before seen, and will alienate the donor nations that keep the Palestinian beggar nation fed.

Well said Drunk commies :)
thanks

Well said Drunk commies :)

I concur.:)

I'm not surprised, but I do believe that with Hamas in power the Palestinians will make absolutely no progress toward peace, will almost undoubtedly make attacks agains Israel that will result in retaliation like never before seen, and will alienate the donor nations that keep the Palestinian beggar nation fed.

Considering that Palestinian funding is almost surely going to dry up because of who is in power.

Considering that Palestinian funding is almost surely going to dry up because of who is in power.
It won't dry up completely, but it is certain to decrease. The reason why cash won't be completely cut off is to try to reduce the possibility of Iran or the al Saud buying influence with Hamas through donations. Still, the Palestinians are going to look back on these days of 50% unemployment in Gaza and generalized poverty throughout their territories and think of them as the good old days as their economy withers from a decrease in foreign aid.

Stil its fact that some of your citizens can not buy land couse of their religion!
Or rather lack of it, you didn't say anything about that dough!

And you have not mentioned a word against europeans, even dough we have done a lot more shit against you then the arabs will ever have the means to!

And if some anti Moslem dude on the street in europe, saw a middle eastener, he would not ask you if you were a jew or moslim, but attack you based on your(i assume you have them, unless you are a convert) middle eastern fetures, like color of skin hair type etc...

You have to see further..
Arabs, and Jews can see that they look more or less the same, europeens will see that they look the same, and before you know it the world will see that they all have 2 less and arms, and one head

*Sigh*...Jesus, let me be the one to explain things to you.

Most Jews ARE Europeans...the only ones that arnt, are called sephardic, but they are a small minority. The rest, are white europeans, simply they are not christian, just jewish. Like me, for example. I am an American, with a Prussian (German) background. I have light blonde hair, green eyes, am 6'3 with light skin (before I moved to South Florida) and am Jewish for as far back as I know. Likewise, most Israelis are IMMIGRANTS from either a) America, which in turn were immigrants from Europe or b) Russia, which for the most part, unless they are from the central Asian parts of the soveit union, are white also. Anyway, my point is that MOST jews are white, and if you go to Israel, you will see, in my opinion, more (white) Russian looking people than anything. The only Jews that look like arabs are the middle eastern ones (again, sephardic) or the ones that have recently mixed with middle easterns.

*Sigh*...Jesus, let me be the one to explain things to you.

Most Jews ARE Europeans...the only ones that arnt, are called sephardic, but they are a small minority. The rest, are white europeans, simply they are not christian, just jewish. Like me, for example. I am an American, with a Prussian (German) background. I have light blonde hair, green eyes, am 6'3 with light skin (before I moved to South Florida) and am Jewish for as far back as I know. Likewise, most Israelis are IMMIGRANTS from either a) America, which in turn were immigrants from Europe or b) Russia, which for the most part, unless they are from the central Asian parts of the soveit union, are white also. Anyway, my point is that MOST jews are white, and if you go to Israel, you will see, in my opinion, more (white) Russian looking people than anything. The only Jews that look like arabs are the middle eastern ones (again, sephardic) or the ones that have recently mixed with middle easterns.

Sepharidim basically are the majority these days.
Next time, look a bit closer.
They don't necessarily live in the most touristy areas.

Sepharidim basically are the majority these days.
Next time, look a bit closer.
They don't necessarily live in the most touristy areas.

Actually, your 100% wrong. Sepharidim are not even close to the majority.

They are tiny tiny small percentage of Jews. Look it up.

dosn't anyone belive in hard statistics and supporting evidence these days ? ... the fact of tha matter is, Election of Hamas is worse for the Palestinean people then for Israel or the general peace process, UNLESS they moderate their tone and disarm.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11056698/

Actually, your 100% wrong. Sepharidim are not even close to the majority.

They are tiny tiny small percentage of Jews. Look it up.Jews of middle eastern and Spanish descent are definately the majority in Israel right now. I don't see why it matters in any case. Here's Israel's statistics website -I'm suire its there somewhere, though I don't feel like finding it.

http://www1.cbs.gov.il/reader/cw_usr_view_Folder?ID=141


Anyhow, with this morning's news that Hamas plans to base new laws on Sharia, overhaul the education system to seperate girls and boys, introduce more Islamic curricula, and unite all the militant factions into an "army", I don't feel very encouraged.

Not to mention that they've just said "to hell with your support and money" to Europe and the U.S. - Is Hamas living in a fantasy world? the palestinian government is run almost entirely on inernational aid, and they depend on Israel itself for infrastructure, electricity, and hospitals. Hamas is definately kidding themselves if they think they can go it alone. Its simple: where will the money come from?

Fatah started out as notorious terrorists.

This isnt surprising, and is probably good news for both israel and palestine.

No, the French resistance weren't known for shooting women and children in cold blood as they drove to the polls to vote. The French resistance wanted to liberate an actual nation, not a made up one like Palestine. The French Resistance didn't bomb busses and markets full of civilians and families.

Hamas is an organization devoted to Jewish genocide. They're carrying on the same tradition as the Mufti of Jerusalem and Hitler. In fact, Palestinian graffiti often features swastikas and other Nazi themes.

Anyone who sympathizes with Hamas is either a complete moron, or a Jew hater on the same level as the degenerate Nazi scum that civilized nations once eradicated.
*applauds*

Actually, your 100% wrong. Sepharidim are not even close to the majority.

They are tiny tiny small percentage of Jews. Look it up.
They are the minority of all Jews worldwide. There are only 3 at my temple, one of whom is our Rabbi. But, in Israel, the majority are Sephardic. The reason for this is because of all the Jews that were kicked out of Arab countries and made refugees (they aren't refugees now because Israel accepted them.) Israel brought them in through actions like Operation Magic Carpet.

Excellent...Fatah was bad, but Hamas is just terrible. They don't care about Palestine, or freedom, or anything else. Hamas is motivated by one thing, the eradication of Israel as a state and by extenstion the Jews that live there. They are virulently anti-Jewish and intolerant of anyone who disagrees with their narrow interpretation of Islam, and are undoubtedly going to use Palestine as a springboard for more attacks against Israel.

Jews of middle eastern and Spanish descent are definately the majority in Israel right now. I don't see why it matters in any case. Here's Israel's statistics website -I'm suire its there somewhere, though I don't feel like finding it.

http://www1.cbs.gov.il/reader/cw_usr_view_Folder?ID=141


Anyhow, with this morning's news that Hamas plans to base new laws on Sharia, overhaul the education system to seperate girls and boys, introduce more Islamic curricula, and unite all the militant factions into an "army", I don't feel very encouraged.

Not to mention that they've just said "to hell with your support and money" to Europe and the U.S. - Is Hamas living in a fantasy world? the palestinian government is run almost entirely on inernational aid, and they depend on Israel itself for infrastructure, electricity, and hospitals. Hamas is definately kidding themselves if they think they can go it alone. Its simple: where will the money come from?

I do not think the people will tolerate islamic law. Not to mention, there could be a massive palestinian backlash.

People, i really hate to say this, but a Civil War is not out of the question.

Fatah started out as notorious terrorists.

This isnt surprising, and is probably good news for both israel and palestine.Its true enough that Fatah started out as notorious terrorists, and still have a rabidly militant wing, but I fail to see haow this is a good thing. I's simply a progression.

Having palestinian factions shooting at each other, and at their own party's leaderships is not a good thing. Having their government commited to Islamafy the territory's schools and legal system is not a good thing. Having a government that still has Israel's destruction in its founding charter is not a good thing. Having a movement so naive and inexperienced to the point that they are begging their opposition to help them out, in government, is not good. Having them refuse international aid that their governemtn and society depend on is not a good thing.

They are the minority of all Jews worldwide. There are only 3 at my temple, one of whom is our Rabbi. But, in Israel, the majority are Sephardic. The reason for this is because of all the Jews that were kicked out of Arab countries and made refugees (they aren't refugees now because Israel accepted them.) Israel brought them in through actions like Operation Magic Carpet.

Right, I was thinking word wide. And also, I was thinking about immigration from the former Soviet Union and America (those Jews would, most likely be white Jews) and forgot about the arab Jews Israel brought it.

When I went to Israel, they told me, if I'm not mistaken, that the Sephardim are dumb, usually poor, and that they are a burden on the white Jews to support. Needless to say the Jews that told me this were Ashkenazi, lol. Anyway, any input to whether or not this is true?

I do not think the people will tolerate islamic law. Not to mention, there could be a massive palestinian backlash.
Maybe, but Hamas just won a landslide victory with the slogan of "Islam is the answer". So erm, you can't say that they don't have a mandate.

Maybe, but Hamas just won a landslide victory with the slogan of "Islam is the answer". So erm, you can't say that they don't have a mandate.

Uhh.... yea and the Corruption of Fatah had nothing to do with it.

When I went to Israel, they told me, if I'm not mistaken, that the Sephardim are dumb, usually poor, and that they are a burden on the white Jews to support. Needless to say the Jews that told me this were Ashkenazi, lol. Anyway, any input to whether or not this is true?Lets not kid ourselves, there's plenty of racism in Israel right now directed toward Jews form mizrahi origin. Sephardim are largely more recent immigrants to Israel than European Jews, and encounter all the problems that that entails. They arrived in Israel in huge waves as they were encouraged to emmigrate in the 60s and 70s and obviously had to be superficially integrated into an Israeli society, and infrastructure that was already heavily burdened.

Poverty, ridicule, and rejection by the more venerable members of Israeli society have perpetuated their situation. The 'pioneers' that started the zionist movement were Ashkenazis from Russia and Europe mostly, and these are the people that have the longest history of presteige in government and the military historically. Mizrahim are closing that gap however - for example, the new leader of the Labour party, Amir Peretz, was born in Morocco. Like all social inequalities it is a slow process of integration. Now, that's a gross simplification - but I suggest you start a thread about Israeli sociology if youy're interested - its pretty off-topic here.

Its true enough that Fatah started out as notorious terrorists, and still have a rabidly militant wing, but I fail to see haow this is a good thing. I's simply a progression.

Having palestinian factions shooting at each other, and at their own party's leaderships is not a good thing. Having their government commited to Islamafy the territory's schools and legal system is not a good thing. Having a government that still has Israel's destruction in its founding charter is not a good thing. Having a movement so naive and inexperienced to the point that they are begging their opposition to help them out, in government, is not good. Having them refuse international aid that their governemtn and society depend on is not a good thing.


As the PLO/Fatah matured, it learned that politics with israel was more effective than suicide bombings.

I expect that anyone who thinks israel should refuse to make peace now that hamas has been formally elected also believes that israel should refuse to make peace with fatah, because of thier links to terrorism.

Palestinians have seen, through sharon's surprise pullout, that they can get back the land israel is occupying. The gaza pullout changed a lot of things in the israeli palestinian conflict, and its hard to take seriously anyone who ignores that.

Hamas must be given, for some period of time, the benefit of the doubt, the stakes are too high not to.

As the PLO/Fatah matured, it learned that politics with israel was more effective than suicide bombings. to a degree. lets not forget that the Al-Aqsa brigades are still part of the Fatah movement,, and have been responsible for very recent suicide bombs. Arafat himself never renounced his intimate ties to terrorism.

I expect that anyone who thinks israel should refuse to make peace now that hamas has been formally elected also believes that israel should refuse to make peace with fatah, because of thier links to terrorism.

Palestinians have seen, through sharon's surprise pullout, that they can get back the land israel is occupying. The gaza pullout changed a lot of things in the israeli palestinian conflict, and its hard to take seriously anyone who ignores that.It changed the reality on the ground, but in terms of serious and innovative attitude shift I don't think so - Israel has been willing to give up the west bank and gaza in principle for over a decade. The major shift is from negotiated to unilateral action, not to the concept of pulling out of the occupied territories. By endorsing Hamas, palestinians are sending a message of increased hostility toward Israel, not increased hope for cooperating in the wake of the pullout.

Hamas must be given, for some period of time, the benefit of the doubt, the stakes are too high not to.I agree completely. We must judge Hamas' governement by their actions, and take direction from there.

I think the United States and Europe should just stay out of the whole Israel-Palestine thing. Those people have hated each other for thousands of years, and Condoleeza Rice isn't gonna change that no matter how hard she tries.