NationStates Jolt Archive

Just want to hear what you have to say about this..
Well, seen as a lot of wars and other stuff that are not that happy, happen couse of religion, wouldn't it be great to ban this shit, all together..
Look at Palestine, you would never be able to tell the difference between a Isreali, and a Palestinian... But they don't have the same religion, and they fight...
The same goes for the Balkans, first it was splint in to east and west, by the two churches of the time. Then as the Ottomans came, Islam came to, this only to add to the confusion. I know this as I am from former jugo....
And lets face it, I can't see if someone is Bosniak[like my self], Croat or Serb....
And I am sure there are a lot of other things like this in the world, that I don't know about that are more or less the same thing..

So, what if org. Religion was banned, and anyone could belive what ever the fuck they wanted in, as long as they bothered no one...

I know, couse I'm from there that so much shit happened to the former jugoslavia couse of religion..

Like fundamentalists from all sides.. like Cetniks, Ustasa, those who of own free will followed Alija...

Etc....

These three evil men, Miloseivc Izetbegovic, and Dudman I think...
All got the same blod, the same people to kill each oter..

Therefore, what do you think, would banning religion, to some degree help..

In my opinion I wish we could but it wouldnt be a good move. Freedom etc etc

So how would we go about enforcing the ban?

So how would we go about enforcing the ban?
Thought police. Duh.

So how would we go about enforcing the ban?
Yes, we would!

So how would we go about enforcing the ban?
Well, we could make all religious people register their faith for a couple of generations. Then we round up all living religious people and their children, take them to labor camps. Make them work in order to pay back what their kind have taken from society. Then we either watch them die from exhaustion, kill them in medical experiments, or just gas 'em.

Well, we could make all religious people register their faith for a couple of generations. Then we round up all living religious people and their children, take them to labor camps. Make them work in order to pay back what their kind have taken from society. Then we either watch them die from exhaustion, kill them in medical experiments, or just gas 'em.

Phew, and there I as worrying that it might be overly brutal.

Your talking about taking away ones freedoms. Unless you want to be as bad as extremists then i would say just let religion stay.

And you can't say that Isralies and Palastinians look the same because they don't. They are distict facial features that are found on Isralies that are not found on Palastinians and vice verca. There are many cultural differences also (and not just the religious ones) between the two groups of people.

collapsing institutions doesn't stop people from being idiots.

Yes, we would!

Try again. The operative word was 'How?'

No, it wouldn't solve anything.

First of all, assholes will be assholes. You can't legislate goodness. Either people will fight about religion, or they will fight about something else.

Second, wars are about power and about resource control. Religion is a convenient mask for greedy leaders. Removing it won't make them less greedy, however.

Third, it's impractical. How can you ban something intangible?

Fourth, even if it weren't impractical, it's against your stated goal. If you really want to let people "belive what ever the fuck they wanted in, as long as they bothered no one" then you'd leave the religious alone. They aren't the problem. The criminals are.

Well, we could make all religious people register their faith for a couple of generations. Then we round up all living religious people and their children, take them to labor camps. Make them work in order to pay back what their kind have taken from society. Then we either watch them die from exhaustion, kill them in medical experiments, or just gas 'em.
That plan seems a bit, final doesn't it?

It would probably make the world a better place in the long run, but the shear amount of problems in the short term make it fairly difficult.

Your talking about taking away ones freedoms. Unless you want to be as bad as extremists then i would say just let religion stay.

And you can't say that Isralies and Palastinians look the same because they don't. They are distict facial features that are found on Isralies that are not found on Palastinians and vice verca. There are many cultural differences also (and not just the religious ones) between the two groups of people.

Well, they are both western semites, more or less, they are as different as a norwegian and a sweeds[no offense to norwegians and sweeds, you havn't killed each other for a while now;) ]

No, it wouldn't solve anything.

First of all, assholes will be assholes. You can't legislate goodness. Either people will fight about religion, or they will fight about something else.

Second, wars are about power and about resource control. Religion is a convenient mask for greedy leaders. Removing it won't make them less greedy, however.

Third, it's impractical. How can you ban something intangible?

Fourth, even if it weren't impractical, it's against your stated goal. If you really want to let people "belive what ever the fuck they wanted in, as long as they bothered no one" then you'd leave the religious alone. They aren't the problem. The criminals are.

yes but when the mask is lifted people will see the truth and belive in less bullshit

What level of organization would be banned? Could people still start and gather and something like a church (which needs a bit of organization to fund and maintain).

Just want to hear what you have to say about this..
Well, seen as a lot of wars and other stuff that are not that happy, happen couse of religion, wouldn't it be great to ban this shit, all together..
Look at Palestine, you would never be able to tell the difference between a Isreali, and a Palestinian... But they don't have the same religion, and they fight...
The same goes for the Balkans, first it was splint in to east and west, by the two churches of the time. Then as the Ottomans came, Islam came to, this only to add to the confusion. I know this as I am from former jugo....
And lets face it, I can't see if someone is Bosniak[like my self], Croat or Serb....
And I am sure there are a lot of other things like this in the world, that I don't know about that are more or less the same thing..

So, what if org. Religion was banned, and anyone could belive what ever the fuck they wanted in, as long as they bothered no one...

I know, couse I'm from there that so much shit happened to the former jugoslavia couse of religion..

Like fundamentalists from all sides.. like Cetniks, Ustasa, those who of own free will followed Alija...

Etc....

These three evil men, Miloseivc Izetbegovic, and Dudman I think...
All got the same blod, the same people to kill each oter..

Therefore, what do you think, would banning religion, to some degree help..
Nope, because it will be Unconstitutional... Remember, the Seperation of Church and State works both ways. Government cannot regulate nor dictate policy to Religion as Religion cannot do the same to Government.

yes but when the mask is lifted people will see the truth and belive in less bullshit

Nope. Sheep will be sheep. You may be able to rally them into action by exposing "the truth," but the effects will only last as long as the adrenaline does. Then they'll be looking for a new leader, who will mislead them in a different fashion. So goes it.

That plan seems a bit, final doesn't it?

True, but it is a solution.

It would be a good thing to get rid of religion entirely, but that is not possible or feasable.

Even if we did get rid of religions, people will just invent new ones. Eventually Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, etc.. will fade away just like the Greek and Roman religions with their multiple gods. Our distant Super-Great Grandchildren will be sitting there reading about how unorthodox our religions were to the ones they have.

Gee... and people insists there is no anti-religion sentiment here. :rolleyes:

What level of organization would be banned? Could people still start and gather and something like a church (which needs a bit of organization to fund and maintain).
at the lever of church, mosque, tempel,whatever it would not be banned, but there would be made efforts to limit, and destroy any political power...
There would not be allowed at any level higher then church etc..
Only local religion would be allowed, as this cant do harm, i mean if people want to wed, and mary in a church, who are we to care, but no organization that controls all these churches and shit
There would be life time prison sentences if someone used it as a way of targeting people of an other religion, or talking and spreading word about acts of terrorism against the secular goverment, also, it would be toled people, in areas, where religion is a mayor problem, like balkans and palestine, to give their children nutral names, like not to call them St.Hamster jesus2 or mohammed2, or, you know names that are quite religion made.....

at the lever of church, mosque, tempel,whatever it would not be banned, but there would be made efforts to limit, and destroy any political power...
There would not be allowed at any level higher then church etc..

And again I ask: how do you plan to enforce this? Crack SWAT teams absailing through stained-glass windows or down the Minarrets?:rolleyes:

Even if it didn't, it would make me freakin' delirious with glee!

That plan seems a bit, final doesn't it?
Hey, it's a good solution to the problem.

And again I ask: how do you plan to enforce this? Crack SWAT teams absailing through stained-glass windows or down the Minarrets?:rolleyes:

Something like that, they would have choppers, and be on alert 24/7:D

True, but it is a solution.
Damn you Randomlittleisland! You're too quick.

It would be a good thing to get rid of religion entirely, but that is not possible or feasable.

Even if we did get rid of religions, people will just invent new ones. Eventually Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, etc.. will fade away just like the Greek and Roman religions with their multiple gods. Our distant Super-Great Grandchildren will be sitting there reading about how unorthodox our religions were to the ones they have.


What is the basis for morality, if this 'good' thing of getting rid of religion were accomplished???

well, how would you enforce this, and make it not to extreme, but not to relaxed? This banning religion thing, I would ban all things like, burkas, oversized crosses, and the likes

What is the basis for morality, if this 'good' thing of getting rid of religion were accomplished???
YOu mean what? What would people think happened to them when they died?

Something like that, they would have choppers, and be on alert 24/7:D
ha "The God Squad"

as an israeli i must say that israelies and palestinians don't look the same... don't say things based on you'r thoughts.


Just want to hear what you have to say about this..
Well, seen as a lot of wars and other stuff that are not that happy, happen couse of religion, wouldn't it be great to ban this shit, all together..
Look at Palestine, you would never be able to tell the difference between a Isreali, and a Palestinian... But they don't have the same religion, and they fight...
The same goes for the Balkans, first it was splint in to east and west, by the two churches of the time. Then as the Ottomans came, Islam came to, this only to add to the confusion. I know this as I am from former jugo....
And lets face it, I can't see if someone is Bosniak[like my self], Croat or Serb....
And I am sure there are a lot of other things like this in the world, that I don't know about that are more or less the same thing..

So, what if org. Religion was banned, and anyone could belive what ever the fuck they wanted in, as long as they bothered no one...

I know, couse I'm from there that so much shit happened to the former jugoslavia couse of religion..

Like fundamentalists from all sides.. like Cetniks, Ustasa, those who of own free will followed Alija...

Etc....

These three evil men, Miloseivc Izetbegovic, and Dudman I think...
All got the same blod, the same people to kill each oter..

Therefore, what do you think, would banning religion, to some degree help..

What is the basis for morality, if this 'good' thing of getting rid of religion were accomplished???
The basis of morality would be sympathy and love for one's fellow human. I'm an atheist, but I'm an ethical person. Why? Because I respect people enough not to steal from them, rape them, or kill them without having the threat of hell held over my head.

Damn you Randomlittleisland! You're too quick.

MUWHAHAHAHAHA!!!! I am a l33t h0l0c4u5t r3f3r3nxor!!1!:p

YOu mean what? What would people think happened to them when they died?

No, day to day morality. Is it survival of the fittest, or what ever the law states?

There seems to be several current governments and recent ones that have attempted to remove organised religion, particularly communistic ones. They seem to have varying levels of success, but none appear to be 100%. Even the brutal North Koreans cannot stop the peasant Christians, not to mention the cruel Chinese government enforcers.

Edit:

http://www.kcgm.org/north_korea.htm

Every election cycle, the percentage of atheists who vote for conservative candidates increases by a point or so, up toward 35% as of 2004...

In other words, banning religion isn't going to make installing communism or radical socialism any easier for you.. people aren't going to be tools of the State, no matter what you tell them.. human nature is pleasantly surprising sometimes.. :)

Just want to hear what you have to say about this..
Well, seen as a lot of wars and other stuff that are not that happy, happen couse of religion, wouldn't it be great to ban this shit, all together..
Look at Palestine, you would never be able to tell the difference between a Isreali, and a Palestinian... But they don't have the same religion, and they fight...
The same goes for the Balkans, first it was splint in to east and west, by the two churches of the time. Then as the Ottomans came, Islam came to, this only to add to the confusion. I know this as I am from former jugo....
And lets face it, I can't see if someone is Bosniak[like my self], Croat or Serb....
And I am sure there are a lot of other things like this in the world, that I don't know about that are more or less the same thing..

So, what if org. Religion was banned, and anyone could belive what ever the fuck they wanted in, as long as they bothered no one...

I know, couse I'm from there that so much shit happened to the former jugoslavia couse of religion..

Like fundamentalists from all sides.. like Cetniks, Ustasa, those who of own free will followed Alija...

Etc....

These three evil men, Miloseivc Izetbegovic, and Dudman I think...
All got the same blod, the same people to kill each oter..

Therefore, what do you think, would banning religion, to some degree help..


Not at all. Most of those conflicts are of historical and ethnic basis. Even if you could magically wave a wand and produce an international power capable of weilding such magical powers, the conflicts would continue.

The basis of morality would be sympathy and love for one's fellow human. I'm an atheist, but I'm an ethical person. Why? Because I respect people enough not to steal from them, rape them, or kill them without having the threat of hell held over my head.


Right, but down to the harder questions, social engineering, euthanasisa, abortion. How do you decide? You say love for one's fellow human. In abortion do you love the unborn or the privacy of the mother. It really isn't as simple as you make it out to be.

as an israeli i must say that israelies and palestinians don't look the same... don't say things based on you'r thoughts.
Are you both not western semites?
I know that jews split, on sefards and something else..

I mean, you are not more different then two neigbouring european nations?

Not at all. Most of those conflicts are of historical and ethnic basis. Even if you could magically wave a wand and produce an international power capable of weilding such magical powers, the conflicts would continue.
Yeah, but in Jugoslavia religion was used to give atantion to these nearly forgotten conflicts!!!

Are you both not western semites?
I know that jews split, on sefards and something else..

I mean, you are not more different then two neigbouring european nations?
*sigh*
why? why do people have to poke wasp's nests? it's not like you don't know what's going to happen.

What is the basis for morality, if this 'good' thing of getting rid of religion were accomplished???
My basis of morality? My basis of morality lies in what I believe is right, instead of letting a religious institution tell me what is right. This does not make me any less ethical, it just gives me more freedom to think about subjects/issues without having to worry about irrevalent religious laws or customs.

Sure, Religion has its benefits. Gives people a moral base. But people can have a moral base without having to believe in a higher being.

IMO religion causes more problems than it is worth.

There seems to be several current governments and recent ones that have attempted to remove organised religion, particularly communistic ones. They seem to have varying levels of success, but none appear to be 100%. Even the brutal North Koreans cannot stop the peasant Christians, not to mention the cruel Chinese government enforcers.

Edit:

http://www.kcgm.org/north_korea.htm

Generally speaking government suppression of religion can work pretty well as long as the state is functioning well. In China the main reason for the current Christian revival is that the population is losing confidence in the government and politics in general and are looking for something else to have faith in.

What is the basis for morality, if this 'good' thing of getting rid of religion were accomplished???Kant's categorical imperative, Hobb's contract theory, utility theory, etc
Are are dozens if not hundreds of non-religious ethics systems.

disbanding the KKK isn't going to stop the existence of bigotted assholes. religion doesn't make people stupid, that's just a convenient scapegoat.

Well, it's not like we'd lose tax money.

Well, it's not like we'd lose tax money.
We would, my anti church/mosque SWAT unti would need money, and laots of choppers:D

See you can't ban Religion what you have to do is wait for Religion to kill itself here are some facts in 1990 the atheist pop was 5% as of 200 we are now 10% of the world.

heres a link to a paper I did

http://www.geocities.com/moyopopos/A_Thought_on_Life.doc

myspace.com/sodomojo533

Carl Sagan kicks ass bible thumpers so go and prey to your "God" they say he spreads love but all I see is hate from the bible

yes but when the mask is lifted people will see the truth and belive in less bullshit

"see the truth?" "believe in less bullsh*t?" _HA_ !!! welcome to humanity, dear soul, welcome! it's about time you got a wakeup call !! people don't see truth unless it's given in lies.. and people love nothing more than bullshit. / getting rid of religion is not going to solve the human problem. it's not going to solve anything.. and it will probably make things worse. in this country at least, we like our freedom. despite what people might say, this country is one of the freest in the world. you can't ban people's rights to religion in this country.. that's the very REASON it was FOUNDED !!! there's plenty of sociology and psychology on the web. go find it!! :p

My basis of morality? My basis of morality lies in what I believe is right, instead of letting a religious institution tell me what is right. This does not make me any less ethical, it just gives me more freedom to think about subjects/issues without having to worry about irrevalent religious laws or customs.

Sure, Religion has its benefits. Gives people a moral base. But people can have a moral base without having to believe in a higher being.

IMO religion causes more problems than it is worth.

What you belive is right. Yup, good definition. Without religion to interfere you draw from your culture, to decide right from wrong. Given human nature, what direction do you think morality will slide. It will naturally move toward a culture of no restraint. We all know we need limits and discipline, that we are not willing to hold ourselves accountable for. Perhaps religion's value is not fully disclosed?

Carl Sagan kicks ass bible thumpers so go and prey to your "God" they say he spreads love but all I see is hate from the bible

what a disgustingly small-minded individual you must be.

the bible was re-written by the ROMANS.. and many others who wanted to trick the common people into doing what they wanted.. more control, etc. so get your facts straight and quit being such a flaming lunatic about it.

disbanding the KKK isn't going to stop the existence of bigotted assholes. But it would help in stopping them from perpetrating organized hate crimes. If they all have to go at in singularly, it'll be a lot less effective.

Disbanding the republican party won't stop prevent there are people that have those republican ideals, but it'll stop them from getting into government. Same for democrats if you like. Or liberals, or whatever.

Generally speaking government suppression of religion can work pretty well as long as the state is functioning well. In China the main reason for the current Christian revival is that the population is losing confidence in the government and politics in general and are looking for something else to have faith in.

I have a strong suspicion that 'the state is functioning well' is sort of hard to measure, and usually means a certain degree of freedom for the individual, including the right to hold and maintain an organisation based on beliefs.

Vegetarianistica']what a disgustingly small-minded individual you must be.

the bible was re-written by the ROMANS.. and many others who wanted to trick the common people into doing what they wanted.. more control, etc. so get your facts straight and quit being such a flaming lunatic about it.

But it is the re written he was talking about, i don't see anyone use the real one!!!!

Just want to hear what you have to say about this..
Well, seen as a lot of wars and other stuff that are not that happy, happen couse of religion, wouldn't it be great to ban this shit, all together..
Look at Palestine, you would never be able to tell the difference between a Isreali, and a Palestinian... But they don't have the same religion, and they fight...
The same goes for the Balkans, first it was splint in to east and west, by the two churches of the time. Then as the Ottomans came, Islam came to, this only to add to the confusion. I know this as I am from former jugo....
And lets face it, I can't see if someone is Bosniak[like my self], Croat or Serb....
And I am sure there are a lot of other things like this in the world, that I don't know about that are more or less the same thing..

So, what if org. Religion was banned, and anyone could belive what ever the fuck they wanted in, as long as they bothered no one...

I know, couse I'm from there that so much shit happened to the former jugoslavia couse of religion..

Like fundamentalists from all sides.. like Cetniks, Ustasa, those who of own free will followed Alija...

Etc....

These three evil men, Miloseivc Izetbegovic, and Dudman I think...
All got the same blod, the same people to kill each oter..

Therefore, what do you think, would banning religion, to some degree help..

How did a lack of religious difference work out in Rwanda and the Sudan? People will find reasons to fight. Skin color is an easy reason. Religion is an easy reason. For a very long time it has been to the benefit of government to use differences in people to promote imperialism. France did it in Rwanda. Muslims and Isrealis do it in the Middle East. Britain did it in Ireland and Scotland. Religion isn't the problem. Corrupt leaders is. And if you're looking for support in banning them, tell me where to sign.

But it is the re written he was talking about, i don't see anyone use the real one!!!!

oh yeah. well, the bible's pretty blood-thirsty and all that. i'm not religious myself.. more spiritual, really. but i don't think the problem is organized religion.. i think it's people's mentalities. people want to be told what to do, they want to not do it, and they like to feel guilty about it. hence, religion.

See you can't ban Religion what you have to do is wait for Religion to kill itself here are some facts in 1990 the atheist pop was 5% as of 200 we are now 10% of the world.

heres a link to a paper I did

http://www.geocities.com/moyopopos/A_Thought_on_Life.doc

myspace.com/sodomojo533

Carl Sagan kicks ass bible thumpers so go and prey to your "God" they say he spreads love but all I see is hate from the bible

Unless you're twelve, I would give that paper an F. It's very poorly written among other things.

Given human nature, what direction do you think morality will slide. It will naturally move toward a culture of no restraint.

Good.

Unless you're twelve, I would give that paper an F. It's very poorly written among other things.

Ohhh! A name!

*steals identity*

I have a strong suspicion that 'the state is functioning well' is sort of hard to measure, and usually means a certain degree of freedom for the individual, including the right to hold and maintain an organisation based on beliefs.

Ouch, nice one. I think I'm going to have to concede this point and admit that it is probably impossible to ban religion for any length of time.

Vegetarianistica']oh yeah. well, the bible's pretty blood-thirsty and all that. i'm not religious myself.. more spiritual, really. but i don't think the problem is organized religion.. i think it's people's mentalities. people want to be told what to do, they want to not do it, and they like to feel guilty about it. hence, religion.

People want to avoid responsibility, that's the problem. Political correctness has become a new scapegoat for that very reason. Look at the behavior of large corporations and you'll see a perfect example of what people do when they organize for any reason. Sure, you get a few that are really for the betterment of humanity, but for the most part when people group up it's an excuse to act like asses and not take responsibility for your actions.

Good.

So, when someone wants your kidneys....and they are stronger than you?

So, when someone wants your kidneys....and they are stronger than you?
and people would kill each other over this had there been no relgion

People want to avoid responsibility, that's the problem. Political correctness has become a new scapegoat for that very reason. Look at the behavior of large corporations and you'll see a perfect example of what people do when they organize for any reason. Sure, you get a few that are really for the betterment of humanity, but for the most part when people group up it's an excuse to act like asses and not take responsibility for your actions.

YES!!! thanx for that. :D

Ouch, nice one. I think I'm going to have to concede this point and admit that it is probably impossible to ban religion for any length of time.

You may have conceded that it is impossible to successfully ban religion for any length of time (I'm not sure that I agree with that one), but that is not the same as conceding that it would be not in the best interests of the government or the people to attempt such a ban. Two very different issues.

As for the first issue, supposing a government were brutal and inhumane enough, it might be possible to stamp out a religion. It is thought that Christianity in northern Africa was completely stamped out by the Moorish invasion. Christians that were not slaughtered by the invasion were systematically exterminated by the new 'government'.

Edit: or forced to convert to Islam, which, I suppose, is still a religion.

As for the second issue, supposing that removing religion was possible, whether it would be in the best interests of both the government and the people....that is possibly a more interesting area of debate, and perhaps a better one for the thread.

and people would kill each other over this had there been no relgion

Follow along. Someone said anarchy would be good and he pointed out what anarchy would actually be.

Religion's not exactly the only thing standing between us and having our kidneys stolen, anway. We need to move towards a society with no restraint, not actually get there.

Follow along. Someone said anarchy would be good and he pointed out what anarchy would actually be.
I'm following along!
And Anarchy, and no religon are not the same thing, If there is a God I think he would want people to stop worhiping, and killing in his name..

Other then that even in the book of revelations it says, that god shal be with man, and no tampels shal be in the new jerusalem, as there is no need for them

http://www.strangepersons.com/images/content/8531.jpg

Religion's not exactly the only thing standing between us and having our kidneys stolen, anway. We need to move towards a society with no restraint, not actually get there.

Religion is not protecting us. Restraint is. I was thinking that you were in favour of less restraint. Just how much less do you reckon would be enough?

I'm following along!
And Anarchy, and no religon are not the same thing, If there is a God I think he would want people to stop worhiping, and killing in his name..

Other then that even in the book of revelations it says, that god shal be with man, and no tampels shal be in the new jerusalem, as there is no need for them

They didn't say no religion. Look at the post they were replying to. It wasn't just an assessment of the thread it was a reply to a particular point that said anarchy would be good. Religion had nothing to do with the point. So, no, you are NOT following along.

Given human nature, what direction do you think morality will slide. It will naturally move toward a culture of no restraint.
good

See, no restraint, not no religion. All caught up now?

Yep organised religion is awful! I mean all those Soup Kitchens feeding people out of church basements, the groups of mission teams that go and help clean up and rebuild after hurricanes/floods/etc, the church run homeless shelters, the orphanages, and I could go on; all these things are so horrible. I can't believe that churches and organised religions even still exist after doing do much bad in this world.


To my knowledge (and I have done some studying/researching religions) there is no religion in the world that advocates wars and killings as appropriate actions. It is kind of like saying that the gun killed someone. A person had to pull the trigger of a gun just as a person has to twist the religion to make the killing acceptable.

They didn't say no religion. Look at the post they were replying to. It wasn't just an assessment of the thread it was a reply to a particular point that said anarchy would be good. Religion had nothing to do with the point. So, no, you are NOT following along.

any further talk of anarchy could be posted in the thread marked riot, were people talk about what they would do if there was anarchy

Religion is not protecting us. Restraint is. I was thinking that you were in favour of less restraint. Just how much less do you reckon would be enough?

You don't think religion has anything to do with why people voluntarily restrain themselves? :rolleyes:

any further talk of anarchy could be posted in the thread marked riot, were people talk about what they would do if there was anarchy

They were simply following the point to its logical conclusion. A perfectly reasonable debate topic. People pretend like if we just take away social restraints people will skip down the street holding hands and singing songs and planting flowers. In practice that is not what happens.

Just want to hear what you have to say about this..
Well, seen as a lot of wars and other stuff that are not that happy, happen couse of religion, wouldn't it be great to ban this shit, all together..
Look at Palestine, you would never be able to tell the difference between a Isreali, and a Palestinian... But they don't have the same religion, and they fight...
The same goes for the Balkans, first it was splint in to east and west, by the two churches of the time. Then as the Ottomans came, Islam came to, this only to add to the confusion. I know this as I am from former jugo....
And lets face it, I can't see if someone is Bosniak[like my self], Croat or Serb....
And I am sure there are a lot of other things like this in the world, that I don't know about that are more or less the same thing..

So, what if org. Religion was banned, and anyone could belive what ever the fuck they wanted in, as long as they bothered no one...

I know, couse I'm from there that so much shit happened to the former jugoslavia couse of religion..

Like fundamentalists from all sides.. like Cetniks, Ustasa, those who of own free will followed Alija...

Etc....

These three evil men, Miloseivc Izetbegovic, and Dudman I think...
All got the same blod, the same people to kill each oter..

Therefore, what do you think, would banning religion, to some degree help..
No... No it wouldn't solve anything. We are animals, through and through, forged by evolution into the most successful predators and genetic proliferators on Earth. To that end we are something special, but hardly unique; Merecats wage war for fuck's sake! We just turned it into an art and practice it for the shear unadulterated hell of it. The fact is that we were killing each other in a time when humans were so few and far-between that competition over resources and territory was nonexistent and when communication hadn't even developed enough to allow disputes over such things as religion. The earliest human skeletons were found with spearheads in their ribcages, since then along with the exponential growth of humans has grown the number of corpses riddled with wounds from ever more advanced weapons.

It's exactly this kind of ignorant, shortsighted, scapegoating and denial of the ugliness of our nature that retards the moral conscience and forbids progress. Stop blaming everything you don’t understand or agree with for the world’s problems, stop bullshitting yourself and everyone else, and take a little sliver of responsibly for the fucked up state of the world. Then, once you realize the single greatest and most despicable thing you will ever discover in this world is you and your fellow man, you can exercise your moral conscience and set an example of decency in this world.

Fuck, the message of Christianity was to Love your fellow man, to be patient, kind, humble, truthful and forgiving. To master yourself, to chain the animal that wants fuck and kill and dominate other animals at whatever cost, to be mindful of the consequences of your actions and not better yourself by screwing over every poor bastard you meet. Notice that I said “was” the message of Christianity; only a fool would claim that such a message is still alive and well today. If you want to know why the world is so fucked up, it’s because we have embraced what the Jew’s called the yetzer ra (the selfish, animalistic nature of man that seeks to fulfill our own wants and needs without regards to moral consequence) and relegated our yetzer tov (the moral conscience) to a state of shallow pretence and mock civility.

If God is love, and hell is the absence of God then the phrase “going to hell in a hand basket” sums up the state of the world rather well. Now where the fuck is my apocalypse?

Okay. let's think about this. For thousands and thousands of years there have been people willing to die for their religious beliefs. They call these martyrs!

Now whenever someone attempts to get rid of these religious beliefs, this is called religious oppression. Religious oppression has a way of causing religious people to become very very pious, unto the point where they go on like "I was put on this earth to save God's true religion!" and so on.

Attempting to ban organized religion will not only result in an increase in piety, but also an increase in religions taking up arms against a source of religious oppression, causing yet another holy war. Holy wars have often been caused by the same basic stimulus: TRYING TO BAN RELIGION.

Not only would banning religion be an incredibly crappy move, but religions have a bad habit of coming out on top at the end of these conflicts. And even if the ban was successful, in a thousand years or more this struggle would be coated in just as much religious mythology as the legends of Christ are so surrounded with legendary mythtalk today.

You can't ban religion because the entire point of religion, in its basest nature, is to defy banment. That's why the mormon religion got started! In defiance of all the other Christian religions that they felt were full of crap. That's why Smith got his butt shot off. Because other religions or nonreligions didn't like his religion and tried to ban it.

There has to be a better way of dealing with the problems presented by organized religion than trying to get rid of it.

wars are a result of intolerence and extremism, with many people using religion as an excuse.

christianity teches forgivness and love your neighbour, yet is twisted round to make it sound like war is a good thing.

ban religion and people will find another 'reason' to fight.

and of course wars may break out over the religious ban......

You may have conceded that it is impossible to successfully ban religion for any length of time (I'm not sure that I agree with that one), but that is not the same as conceding that it would be not in the best interests of the government or the people to attempt such a ban. Two very different issues.

As for the first issue, supposing a government were brutal and inhumane enough, it might be possible to stamp out a religion. It is thought that Christianity in northern Africa was completely stamped out by the Moorish invasion. Christians that were not slaughtered by the invasion were systematically exterminated by the new 'government'.

Edit: or forced to convert to Islam, which, I suppose, is still a religion.

As for the second issue, supposing that removing religion was possible, whether it would be in the best interests of both the government and the people....that is possibly a more interesting area of debate, and perhaps a better one for the thread.

I never said that it was a good idea because I don't beleive it would be. I fully support everyone's right to hold and express whatever beleifs they like.

Well, we could make all religious people register their faith for a couple of generations. Then we round up all living religious people and their children, take them to labor camps. Make them work in order to pay back what their kind have taken from society. Then we either watch them die from exhaustion, kill them in medical experiments, or just gas 'em.
That plan seems a bit, final doesn't it?

A fundamentalist is a fundamentalist is a fundamentalist is a ...

Atheist fundies are as bad as any other kind. Give them the chance, and they'd annihilate people who disagree with them, just like Christian fundies, the Muslim fundies, the Hindu fundies, the Jewish fundies, the Buddhist fundies, and all the political fundies like Snatzis, Stalinists, and all the rest.

And we're meant to believe atheist fundies are the enlightened and intelligent future, to save us from the religious fundies of the past. It's all humbug. There is a kind of mindset that could turn any idea or attitude into a reason to take a fundamentalist stance against the rest of the world. And always the results are the same. They turn into Daleks, screaming "Exterminate! "Exterminate!"

It would be a good thing to get rid of religion entirely, but that is not possible or feasable.

Even if we did get rid of religions, people will just invent new ones. Eventually Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, etc.. will fade away just like the Greek and Roman religions with their multiple gods. Our distant Super-Great Grandchildren will be sitting there reading about how unorthodox our religions were to the ones they have.

Yep, already we have science and science fiction and new age fairies in the garden and celebrities and sports heroes.

Banning religion a bad idea? Do you see how things are now? Well they would be so much more worse. Instead of having a majority of happy religious people, we would have underground relgious movements..There would be non-stop guerilla warfare on the part of fanatics and so on. Also look at the communists...I mean they tried it and look at all the brutality that has happened to people in russia, china,korea and so on. I mean i believe in china, you still can be put to death for trying to be a christian. So obviously this takes away from basic human rights. All around bad bad bad idea

Banning religion a bad idea? Do you see how things are now? Well they would be so much more worse. Instead of having a majority of happy religious people, we would have underground relgious movements..There would be non-stop guerilla warfare on the part of fanatics and so on. Also look at the communists...I mean they tried it and look at all the brutality that has happened to people in russia, china,korea and so on. I mean i believe in china, you still can be put to death for trying to be a christian. So obviously this takes away from basic human rights. All around bad bad bad idea
what about my human right of not beeing killed by fanatics, its a choice, and one has gotta go

what about my human right of not beeing killed by fanatics, its a choice, and one has gotta go

Fanatics? Like the people that would ban religion? Not all fanatics are religious nor will they ever be.

"What about my human right to not be killed by drivers? It's a choice and one has got to go."

You're more likely to be killed in a car accident than by a religious fanatic by about, oh, I don't know, a few thousand times.

what about my human right of not beeing killed by fanatics, its a choice, and one has gotta go

far as i know, we can't choose how we die. but i can say that if religion was banned, there'd be a whole lot of deaths because of it. imagine "banning" television. it would have a similar effect.. though probably banning religion would be much more bloody.

It would be a good thing to get rid of religion entirely, but that is not possible or feasable.

Even if we did get rid of religions, people will just invent new ones. Eventually Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, etc.. will fade away just like the Greek and Roman religions with their multiple gods. Our distant Super-Great Grandchildren will be sitting there reading about how unorthodox our religions were to the ones they have.

If something like Gassputia's idea were to happen, some of our distant successors would likely end up reviving the big religions of today anyway because they've become to so disenchanted with whatever belief-system is prevalent in their day much as the Ancient Greek and Roman pagan religions are experiencing a revival today.

I feel really sorry for the Hellenic recons in Greece. They are effectively banned from practicing their religion (the ancient native religion of Greece itself!) by the monolithic Orthodox state religion, flying in the face of the UN Human Rights charter that Greece signed. What they are experiencing is fairly close (though milder) to what would happen if a ban on 'organised' religion weere to take place, and I find the thought to be disgusting, quite frankly. People wouldn't stop believing and they wouldn't stop organising, they'd just do it where you couldn't see it.

Banning anything does not solve any problems. Prohibition breeds crime, If you make something illegal which people want then you create a criminal class and an additional burden of enforcement. Also, in a democracy or republic or other non-totalitarian/authoritarian government to take an action such as this would be also banning people from free assembly and freedom of association. I think it is perfectly reasonable to enforce seperation of church and state laws / policies (if that is what you are after), as they are defensible (much like regulation of lobbyist or other influence peddling) but I don't see how an open and free society could justify banning organized religion. Much more effective would be to eliminate special benefits and priviledges for religious organizations (open meetings, etc.), encouraging public awareness of all aspects of the operations of religious organizations, and setting examples to the youth of the country to make religion "not cool" to them. However much of that would be unnecessary if you simply eliminated the power and influence of religous organizations on secular politics and public policy.

Falkeep
Libertarian Monarchist

You don't think religion has anything to do with why people voluntarily restrain themselves? :rolleyes:

On the contrary, religion does have quite a lot to do with restraint, but I would not go so far to say that organised religion is protecting us (not while we have an adequate law system), only that it may help restraint. But it isn't required for restraint.

Edit: Perhaps that is one of the great battles of humanity, the struggle to find a good balance between personal freedom (a basic human desire) and personal security (another basic human desire). Restraint is obviously needed for security, but too much is just asking for a fight, and thus is not in the best interests of security.

I once heard someone say that what we need for the modern generation is a good old war again. Obviously a ridiculous statement, and yet I think I can see what such a statement means. It is probably about restoring the balance.

Back to religion, it seems to have been on both sides of that balance, criticised by both those who wanted more freedom, and by those who wanted more restraint, e.g. those who hate war.

Seeing I am a bosnian refugee, it was the religous fanatics that wanted to kill me, cars have never wanted to do that to me...

And if you banned religion, they would want to kill you less? I think you're a little bit off on that one.

Banning org. religion ignores the real solution which is recognizing that all religions are in their essense the same, come from the same Creator and have as their fundmental truths the same principles.


When the Day-Star of Wisdom rose above the horizon of God's Holy Dispensation it voiced this all-glorious utterance: They that are possessed of wealth and invested with authority and power must show the profoundest regard for religion. In truth, religion is a radiant light and an impregnable stronghold for the protection and welfare of the peoples of the world, for the fear of God impelleth man to hold fast to that which is good, and shun all evil. Should the lamp of religion be obscured, chaos and confusion will ensue, and the lights of fairness and justice, of tranquillity and peace cease to shine. Unto this will bear witness every man of true understanding. *126*

(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 125)