NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm not interested in who is "for" or "against" abortion. I'm far more curious as to what you consider a good reason to get one.

So what exactly constitutes what you would consider a reason for abortion that should be legal? Try to be detailed. Here's mine.

Legal


Carrying the baby to a term that it could survive may kill the mother.
The mother has become pregnat due to any type of unconsenting sex. (rape, molestation)
Mother is mentally unfit to carry (not take care of) the child.


Illegal


Mother can't keep her legs shut.
Mother doesn't want to be "bothered" with a baby.
Mother isn't financial ready for a baby. (shouldn't be getting pregnat then)
Mother and Father aren't together any more. (too bad, get child support, lock him up if he won't pay)
Mother has too many children already. (shoulda kept your legs shut)
Mother's job may be affected. (should've thought of that ahead of time, shouldn't you?)



I don't mind a womans right to choose is she is in danger, or pregnat through no fault of her own, however choosing to be a slut isn't a good enough reason to have an abortion.

And I'd like to add to this, I've missed PLENTY an opportunity to get laid because I had the intelligence to think beyond that night, and decided a baby was way more of a burden than having to go home and rub one off once again.

3) Thou Shalt not Covet thy neighbour's threads. For the love of spam, seeing four hundred threads about guns, Bush, and Euro-Ameri centrism gets boring. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=464525)


Obey thy Law!

Obey thy Law!
Go away. *sticks tongue out*

Whenever the mother wants it.

People don't get pregnant because they want an abortion. An abortion is not a good experience, even for the most vile crackwhore. Having to have an abortion is IMHO enough of a punishment already for "not keeping your legs shut".

I believe an abortion should be accompanied by counseling and education (if needed).
The option should be open to anyone who feels they need it.

Whenever the mother wants it.

People don't get pregnant because they want an abortion. An abortion is not a good experience, even for the most vile crackwhore. Having to have an abortion is IMHO enough of a punishment already for "not keeping your legs shut".
If I ever killed someone because I was driving drunk, it would haunt me till the day I died. So by your estimation, I shouldn't go to jail if that ever happened, because killing someone is punishment enough?

Nice logic Forrest. :rolleyes:

Whenever the mother wants it.

People don't get pregnant because they want an abortion. An abortion is not a good experience, even for the most vile crackwhore. Having to have an abortion is IMHO enough of a punishment already for "not keeping your legs shut".

What he said.

*snip*So all women who have sex but don't want children are sluts? What about the married ones, or those in long-term relationships?

Children are really not for all people, and that's not because they "just can't be bothered". A child completely changes your life, your identity - everything.

If I ever killed someone because I was driving drunk, it would haunt me till the day I died. So by your estimation, I shouldn't go to jail if that ever happened, because killing someone is punishment enough?

Nice logic Forrest. :rolleyes:
1. Forrest = Eutrusca. You're getting your posters mixed up
2. Fallacious logic

Legal:
The pregnant woman feels that an abortion is necessary for her overall well-being, mentally, emotionally, physically, financially... it's up to her to decided what that entails.

Illegal:
The woman is being coerced or forced into having an abortion. Legal action should be taken to prevent this if possible.

Well, I'm not sure that would fall under 'illegal' exactly... More like it should be illegal to force someone into having an abortion against their will. Though actually figuring out if that's happening and then preventing it could be a problem. Bah! Whatever.

Children are really not for all people, and that's not because they "just can't be bothered". A child completely changes your life, your identity - everything.

So then maybe they shouldn't engage in activity that leads to having children...

1. Forrest = Eutrusca. You're getting your posters mixed up
2. Fallacious logic
I meant Forrest Gump.

Whether having an abortion in a particular situation is a good decision is a totally different question from whether the state should make that decision for someone.

So all women who have sex but don't want children are sluts? What about the married ones, or those in long-term relationships?

Children are really not for all people, and that's not because they "just can't be bothered". A child completely changes your life, your identity - everything.
So then you think ahead, get on birth control, used condoms, get your tubes tied, get a vasectomy, or GOD FORBID, be abstinent until you are ready for a kid, or equipped properly to prevent one.

I meant Forrest Gump.
Forrest Gump turned out to actually be pretty smart IMHO. Or at least accompllish alot with his life. So I'd accept that as a compliment!

So then maybe they shouldn't engage in activity that leads to having children...

You do realize that not all sex is done to have children. Just because the activity leads up to it does not mean that they do so just for kids. And plenty of people get pregnent even when they use protection.

Oh, and to add to my post (well, Neu Leonstein's really, I just quoted & nodded) above:

While I would think it to be self-evident, this is NS General, so just to be utterly clear: Of course abortions should be avoided if possible, first and foremost by making sure people (esp. kids) use contraceptives, secondly by giving pregnant women the option of considering to give the child up for adoption - and btw, "giving them the option" should mean exactly that, and not "pressuring them into it".

So then you think ahead, get on birth control, used condoms, get your tubes tied, get a vasectomy, or GOD FORBID, be abstinent until you are ready for a kid, or equipped properly to prevent one.Of course you do. But despite your best intentions, condoms/the pill/etc can fail; that's not your fault. I don't know about sterilisations where you are, but here you can't get them until you're 25 unless you're prepared to pay shitloads :rolleyes: And even then you have to go through a whole myriad of bullshit.

But the myriad of bullshit will be worth it. I fully intend to get sterilised on my 25th birthday.

So then maybe they shouldn't engage in activity that leads to having children...So an entirely normal couple who don't want children should behave differently from an entirely normal couple who do. There are other, non-penetrative things such couples can do, of course, but nothing expresses love like real sex. It's not all about procreation. Even the Christian bible acknowledges that, I believe.

Do you consider teen pregnancies as going under #3 on legal? If not, add teen pregnancies to legal as they almost always ruin the girl's life.

The vast majority do not go to college, and more than half drop out of junior/ high school. They're 80% likely to draw on welfare, and less likely to get married later on.

Not only will the girl's life be ruined, but the child is more likely to be born disabled, perform worse in school, and be involved in juvenile delinquency.

Outlawing abortion for teens just isn't a good idea.

I disagree on most of your illegal reasons list too, but I'm sure others will pick at those.

For proof consult these 2 links:

http://womensissues.about.com/od/statistics/a/teenpregstats.htm
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/files/portal/medicalinfo/teensexualhealth/fact-pregnancy-teens-us.xml

Legal: In all cases.
Illegal: Never.

I will go a step further and say that if an unmarried couple become pregnant, and the man offers to pay for an abortion and the woman refuses- she has given up any legal right to receive child support.

I am sure I will incur flame filled responses, but that's the way I see it.

As someone else already pointed out, the question of what I personally think is a good reason is not the same as what I think should be legal.

Legal:
1st trimester - any reason. In fact, a woman at this stage shouldn't even be asked why she is doing it, unless the information is somewow necessary or she is participating in a voluntary survey.
2nd trimester - just about any reason, but it should be more highly regulated and should be recommended by a doctor.
3rd trimester - serious medical risk to the mother or defects in the fetus.


Personal:
1. Medical necessity
2. Serious genetic disorders/deformities that will make it impossible for any child born to live a fulfilling life

Personal, but more iffy and probably case-specific to the person:
1. Rape/incest. If you know you are incapable of loving/taking care of a child, or the pregnancy itself is causing mental harm, then abortion is probably the way to go.


Extremely iffy:

I'm torn on which is worse, knowing that you can't take care of a child and thus getting an abortion, or knowing that you can't take care of a child and thus carrying to term and giving it up for adoption. Neither is a good solution. The best situation, obviously, would be that no one who can't/won't take care of a child would ever get pregnant. But bringing a child into the world with the express purpose of putting it into the adoption/foster/orphanage system isn't really a responsible thing to do.

If I ever killed someone because I was driving drunk, it would haunt me till the day I died. So by your estimation, I shouldn't go to jail if that ever happened, because killing someone is punishment enough?

Nice logic Forrest. :rolleyes:
That really is quite a silly thing to say.

There is something inherently bad about running someone over. You end a life.
Not so with abortion - all I meant to say was that it's hardly like women enjoy having abortions. If they can at all avoid it, I think they will.

Legal: In all cases.
Illegal: Never.

So you think you could have an abortion two seconds before natural birth would occur?

Whenever the mother wants it.

People don't get pregnant because they want an abortion. An abortion is not a good experience, even for the most vile crackwhore. Having to have an abortion is IMHO enough of a punishment already for "not keeping your legs shut".
People make choices all the time. Sometimes they make bad choices. Sometimes that choice is not to use contraception. Why should we fail to protect the potential child, but instead protect the mother's ability to continue making bad choices?

So you think you could have an abortion two seconds before natural birth would occur?

Now that would be one ultra spiteful mother...

So you think you could have an abortion two seconds before natural birth would occur?

Hmmm...I see your point, although it comes close to a straw man streach of circumstances.

I will amend my statement to be that abortion should be legal in all cases until..say...the third trimester, for lack of a specific developmental event, as I am not all that knowlegable on the specifics of what happens when. From then on, only in cases of medical necessity, such as threatening the mother's life.

People make choices all the time. Sometimes they make bad choices. Sometimes that choice is not to use contraception. Why should we fail to protect the potential child, but instead protect the mother's ability to continue making bad choices?

Bad choices are not against the law. If they were, we'd have a LOT more laws.

Why should we fail to protect the potential child, but instead protect the mother's ability to continue making bad choices?
You know that doesn't make any sense. The "potential child"?

I think the choices of a fully-grown, human individual are still a little more important than the interests of "potential" things.

I don't mind a womans right to choose is she is in danger, or pregnat through no fault of her own, however choosing to be a slut isn't a good enough reason to have an abortion.

And what, pray tell, council of learned men will determine what defines "slut" in women?

Hmmm...I see your point, although it comes close to a straw man streach of circumstances.

I will amend my statement to be that abortion should be legal in all cases until..say...the third trimester, for lack of a specific developmental event, as I am not all that knowlegable on the specifics of what happens when. From then on, only in cases of medical necessity, such as threatening the mother's life.


I didnt see the need for you to explain that. It was evident that you just meant it should never be illegal ......not having an abortion 2 seconds before birth is just a given I would hope.

People make choices all the time. Sometimes they make bad choices. Sometimes that choice is not to use contraception. Why should we fail to protect the potential child, but instead protect the mother's ability to continue making bad choices?
And sometimes they use it religiously and it still fails. What then--are they just fucked?

Why should we fail to protect the potential child, but instead protect the mother's ability to continue making bad choices?

Every sperm is a "potential child".

Remember what you've said next time you're touching your naughty bits.

And what, pray tell, council of learned men will determine what defines "slut" in women?
Anyone woman who has sex with either Fiddles, TSI, Harlesburg, myself, Red Arrow, or Drunk Commies.

Anyone woman who has sex with either Fiddles, TSI, Harlesburg, myself, Red Arrow, or Drunk Commies.

lol....sorry but thats a really good reply.

IMO, abortions are a large part of Darwinism. i say 'hooray!' ;)

So all women who have sex but don't want children are sluts? What about the married ones, or those in long-term relationships?

Children are really not for all people, and that's not because they "just can't be bothered". A child completely changes your life, your identity - everything.
Whats the problem with adoption? Theres tons of anti-abortion groups who'll be happy to take your kid, maybe even pay for any hospital fees, just so you don't kill it.

And sometimes they use it religiously and it still fails. What then--are they just fucked?
People make it sound like having a kid is a horrible thing.

People make it sound like having a kid is a horrible thing.
I know it would be for me right now.

I'm male though, so I wouldn't be having it myself but that's beside the point...

Whats the problem with adoption? Theres tons of anti-abortion groups who'll be happy to take your kid, maybe even pay for any hospital fees, just so you don't kill it.
Problems with adoption...
Well, lets see there's... the potential financial obligations as she could still be held responsible if a legal adoption doesn't take place, the desire to not subject someone to being an orphan, the wish to not get fat, the wish to have a beer without being charged with child abuse (which can be done if she's pregnant), wanting to avoid damage to her body, not wanting streach marks, hell, even not wanting her vagina to become larger. There are tons of reasons.

Whats the problem with adoption? Theres tons of anti-abortion groups who'll be happy to take your kid, maybe even pay for any hospital fees, just so you don't kill it.Apart from the potential physical, mental and personal problems that can be associated with pregnancy, in some years, the kid may wish to meet you. In some cases of adoption, that is no problem. However, depending on circumstances, it could be very messy - not just for the mother and/or father, but for the kid itself.

People make it sound like having a kid is a horrible thing.It isn't for some people, obviously, but it really is for some. The thought of ever being a mother disgusts me. To each their own.

Vegetarianistica']IMO, abortions are a large part of Darwinism. i say 'hooray!' ;)
:confused:
I'm not sure I see the connection...

Legal: Basically up until the middle of the third trimester. Any reason. No justification needed.

Illegal: Thereafter, except in extreme cases of deformity or danger to the mother.

An "unborn child" is not a child. Simple as that.

Yes: I know some of you dissagree.

No: I don't really care. Up until the point where you can show me scientific evidence that there is a physical trait that defines People-ness and that it appears at a specific time, I'll draw an arbitrary line based on the point at which the fetus has developed a fully-functional central nervous system and an awareness of pain, at which point it can suffer and shouldn't have to (until then there is no pain, so I don't really give a fuck). Until that point it's a matter of personal judgement, which means you shouldn't be judging for somebody else.

:confused:
I'm not sure I see the connection...

uhhh.. you're proving my point wonderfully. :p

I've seen a few arguements on this thread, I haven't seen them all; but I'd like to point something out. Unless you personally have been involved in an unplanned preganancy, you have no right to comment on the changes it has for others.

Some people make honest mistakes. I think it's kind of dumb to have sex expecting to avoid a child, personally, but that's my opinion. I act according to it. I also realize that everyone else has opinions, too. Recreational sex is appealing to some. Not to me, not to many people, but it is to some.

That happens to be their right. I don't care if your religion prohibits it. I don't care if you don't like it. It's their right. I've heard sex is fun. If I found the right person, I don't know what I'd do, honestly. Many of my friends have sex. One of them has had an unplanned pregancy. She decided to get it aborted. She couldn't ruin her life to have a baby. I think she made the right choice. I hope she's more careful in the future.

I don't think people should look at an unplanned pregnancy as a punishment. I can thing of a million things a birth should be; but a punishment is definitely not one of them. I also don't think "well, they should've used contraception." or "well, they should've been steralized" is a logical thing, either. That's a bit silly. If everyone having recreational sex had to get steralized first, we wouldn't have a population! These aren't just the sluts or non-religious, either. They aren't just the stupid kids. I'm talking about average kids for the most part. Several are smart. Some are going to top colleges. A couple are going to be doctors in the future! I don't think it's a problem, either. It's their right as living beings to have sex, and they're excersing that right.

Teens aren't going to sterilize themselves. Some teens use contraception. Contraception can fail. Condoms aren't 100% effective. Those're just some base things to consider. Not all people who have sex want babies. Just because sex can lead to babies doesn't mean it's bad to do outside of procreational purposes.

I know my opinions aren't absolute, either. Just as I said above; I have opinions just as everyone else has opinions. I just think it's a horrible situation to be put in and I hope none of the people who are claiming to be high and mighty and saying only girls and women who can't keep their legs closed get abortions. It's ignorant, it's defaming, and it just isn't true.

Legal:
The pregnant woman feels that an abortion is necessary for her overall well-being, mentally, emotionally, physically, financially... it's up to her to decided what that entails.

Illegal:
The woman is being coerced or forced into having an abortion. Legal action should be taken to prevent this if possible.

Well, I'm not sure that would fall under 'illegal' exactly... More like it should be illegal to force someone into having an abortion against their will. Though actually figuring out if that's happening and then preventing it could be a problem. Bah! Whatever.
Agreed across the board

Vegetarianistica']IMO, abortions are a large part of Darwinism. i say 'hooray!' ;)
Not really the main actor in darwanism is natural selection. Human created events are not usualy considered under the natural catagory (though they can be as we are part of nature)

Though most of us understand that darwanism is not current evolutionary theory

And sometimes they use it religiously and it still fails. What then--are they just fucked?
I didn't mention that case on purpose. My point is only that people make choices and that those choices have consequences. Choosing contraception and having it fail is one of the times that I wouldn't be opposed to my better half opting for the abortion. It's when we make the choice to avoid contraception and have the pregnancy, that the most innocent among us should be protected.

Though most of us understand that darwanism is not current evolutionary theory

that's theoretical.

Legal:
The pregnant woman feels that an abortion is necessary for her overall well-being, mentally, emotionally, physically, financially... it's up to her to decided what that entails.

Illegal:
The woman is being coerced or forced into having an abortion. Legal action should be taken to prevent this if possible.

Well, I'm not sure that would fall under 'illegal' exactly... More like it should be illegal to force someone into having an abortion against their will. Though actually figuring out if that's happening and then preventing it could be a problem. Bah! Whatever.

AGREED!!! Except I'd like to add that financial issues should be taken into consideration as well. I don't think it's fair to bring a child into the world if you can't afford to give it the proper care it deserves. Speaking from real life experience... although I can afford a moderately comfortable lifestyle right now, I know that I couldn't afford to support a baby as well. And for the record I'm not a "slut" but were I to become pregnant despite all of the precautions I currently take, I would definately consider an abortion.

I'm not interested in who is "for" or "against" abortion. I'm far more curious as to what you consider a good reason to get one.

So what exactly constitutes what you would consider a reason for abortion that should be legal? Try to be detailed. Here's mine.

Legal


Carrying the baby to a term that it could survive may kill the mother.
The mother has become pregnat due to any type of unconsenting sex. (rape, molestation)
Mother is mentally unfit to carry (not take care of) the child.


Illegal


Mother can't keep her legs shut.
Mother doesn't want to be "bothered" with a baby.
Mother isn't financial ready for a baby. (shouldn't be getting pregnat then)
Mother and Father aren't together any more. (too bad, get child support, lock him up if he won't pay)
Mother has too many children already. (shoulda kept your legs shut)
Mother's job may be affected. (should've thought of that ahead of time, shouldn't you?)



I don't mind a womans right to choose is she is in danger, or pregnat through no fault of her own, however choosing to be a slut isn't a good enough reason to have an abortion.

And I'd like to add to this, I've missed PLENTY an opportunity to get laid because I had the intelligence to think beyond that night, and decided a baby was way more of a burden than having to go home and rub one off once again.


My, we have an awfully low opinion of women (in general) and even lower view of those that get abortions.

About half of all U.S. women will have an abortion at some point in their lives.

Grow up and get a little perspective. Women are intelligent and moral decision-mkaers, just like you. They aren't all "sluts" and "nuts."

I didn't mention that case on purpose. My point is only that people make choices and that those choices have consequences. Choosing contraception and having it fail is one of the times that I wouldn't be opposed to my better half opting for the abortion. It's when we make the choice to avoid contraception and have the pregnancy, that the most innocent among us should be protected.

Approxiately 6 in 10 women who have abortions were using contraceptives when they became pregnant.

Whats the problem with adoption? Theres tons of anti-abortion groups who'll be happy to take your kid, maybe even pay for any hospital fees, just so you don't kill it.

1. There are hundreds of millions of orphans worldwide that need adoption.

2. Nine months of pregnancy carries significant physicial, emotional, social, and financial costs and risks.

are you asking what I think personally is a good reason to get an abortion, or what I think should be the legal reasons that a person would be able to get an abortion, because I have vastly different answers for both.

are you asking what I think personally is a good reason to get an abortion, or what I think should be the legal reasons that a person would be able to get an abortion, because I have vastly different answers for both.
I'm asking what is supposed to make this thread "different from the average"?
I'm just seeing the same old play between "All women are sluts" and "All women are precious, beautiful angels of love."
Why can't we just compromise and kill everybody?

I'm asking what is supposed to make this thread "different from the average"?
I'm just seeing the same old play between "All women are sluts" and "All women are precious, beautiful angels of love."
Why can't we just compromise and kill everybody?
because it would make a big mess? ;) oh, and God said not to........yeah........

When she doesn't want a parasitic being growing inside her body.

oh, and God said not to........yeah........

Wow, four pages before the fictional old man in the sky got brought into this mess. I guess this thread is different. Usually we get enough of the g-word in the first page of an abortion thread to make me want to start burning bibles.

When she doesn't want a parasitic being growing inside her body.
A fetus =/= a tapeworm. It's not parasitic per se, her body tries to feed it. It's not taking stuff from her body against its will(her will maybe, but not its. Which is probably what you were refering too.)

Wow, four pages before the fictional old man in the sky got brought into this mess. I guess this thread is different. Usually we get enough of the g-word in the first page of an abortion thread to make me want to start burning bibles.
hey I was responding to someone who wanted to kill everybody, and besides I was kinda being sarcastic, believe me I was trying to find out which answer the OP wanted...........

if it's my own personal "what's a good reason to kill a baby?" answer then it's one thing, if it's "what should be legal?" that is a whole different thing, see God doesn't even fit into my "what should be legal?" answer.

because it would make a big mess? ;) oh, and God said not to........yeah........
Yeah, but God said a lot of things, he didn't seriously want us to pay attention to all of them. The Bible is like the US Consitution, it is merely a set of guidelines by which people could govern their affairs, if they really wanted to.
You do have a point about the mess though: when everyone is dead, there will be no cleaning staff left to neaten the place up. Maybe I should reexamine my plan . . .

Yeah, but God said a lot of things, he didn't seriously want us to pay attention to all of them. The Bible is like the US Consitution, it is merely a set of guidelines by which people could govern their affairs, if they really wanted to.
You do have a point about the mess though: when everyone is dead, there will be no cleaning staff left to neaten the place up. Maybe I should reexamine my plan . . .
yeah, it's like if God gave us free will though then He should have known that some of us would use it to do stuff he didn't really like, I mean He is God, He should have known something would happen.............;)

oh, off topic..........sorry............

1. There are hundreds of millions of orphans worldwide that need adoption.

2. Nine months of pregnancy carries significant physicial, emotional, social, and financial costs and risks.
The millions of orphans worldwide are mostly in countries such as China who have an extreme population surplus. In the US and European countries, the problem is a lot more manageable. I don't see what the difference would be. Instead of having government sponsored abortion clinics all over the place, we'd have government sponsored orphanages.

The millions of orphans worldwide are mostly in countries such as China who have an extreme population surplus. In the US and European countries, the problem is a lot more manageable. I don't see what the difference would be. Instead of having government sponsored abortion clinics all over the place, we'd have government sponsored orphanages.

I've already voiced my opinion on the adoption vs. abortion issue, but I just have to add this now.

I didn't know abortions were availible for free anywhere. I kinda doubt that they are. The certainly are not in my state (Florida). But the cost to raise the millions of orphans who are not aborted each year would be astronomical. It would dwarf the prison system, welfare, and the armed services combined.

I saw the first "bad reason" and turned off. Anyone who pulls the old "OMG SLUTZZ" reasoning doesn't deserve to be engaged in a debate.

Here's my good reason to have an abortion: She wants to. The end.

A fetus =/= a tapeworm. It's not parasitic per se, her body tries to feed it. It's not taking stuff from her body against its will(her will maybe, but not its. Which is probably what you were refering too.)
According to The Aberystwyth Medical Dictionary (http://www.aber.ac.uk/~mpgwww/Edu/Para_ism/PaIsmTxt.html) it fits the medical definition of parasite.

As long as I've been posting on this thread, I don't think I actually ever explained my views.
Personally, I believe that abortion is wrong under any cirsumstance, except possibly if the mother's life is threatened due to my own personal religious beliefs.
Legally, I understand that this is impossible as well as irrational to attempt to implement. People have the right to make their own decisions based on their beliefs. Therefore, I believe that the best way to approach abortion as a government is to:
-provide government funded abortion for victims of sexual crimes and minors
-legalise any abortion up to the first 2 trimesters
-strictly mandate any abortion in the third trimester to direct threats to the health of the mother
-provide government funded alternatives to abortion and publicise them

The millions of orphans worldwide are mostly in countries such as China who have an extreme population surplus. In the US and European countries, the problem is a lot more manageable. I don't see what the difference would be. Instead of having government sponsored abortion clinics all over the place, we'd have government sponsored orphanages.

I see. The babies are the wrong color. They fact that we already have more than we can care for is irrelevant. We want more white babies.

You are either male or too young to understand the difference between abortion and carrying a baby to term and giving it up for adoption.

Why should a woman be forced to undergo those physical, emotional, social, and financial costs and risks to carry a baby to term?

As long as I've been posting on this thread, I don't think I actually ever explained my views.
Personally, I believe that abortion is wrong under any cirsumstance, except possibly if the mother's life is threatened due to my own personal religious beliefs.
Legally, I understand that this is impossible as well as irrational to attempt to implement. People have the right to make their own decisions based on their beliefs. Therefore, I believe that the best way to approach abortion as a government is to:
-provide government funded abortion for victims of sexual crimes and minors
-legalise any abortion up to the first 2 trimesters
-strictly mandate any abortion in the third trimester to direct threats to the health of the mother
-provide government funded alternatives to abortion and publicise them

Yurrah for you. You basically agree with our current Roe v. wade based system.

According to The Aberystwyth Medical Dictionary (http://www.aber.ac.uk/~mpgwww/Edu/Para_ism/PaIsmTxt.html) it fits the medical definition of parasite.

Look at it more closely...
Parasitism is, like most other animal associations defined in terms of two different species, who form a regular association, although this seems sensible, and it does exclude consideration of the mammalian foetus as being parasitic upon its mother, there are some very interesting immunological parallels between the mechanisms the foetus uses to avoid being rejected by the immune response of its mother and the ways in which the parasites of mammals seek to avoid their hosts immune response. *snip*

Yurrah for you. You basically agree with our current Roe v. wade based system.
I don't think the government provides enough good alternatives to abortion. People are so busy trying to illegalise abortion, they don't think proactively.

I see. The babies are the wrong color. They fact that we already have more than we can care for is irrelevant. We want more white babies.

You are either male or too young to understand the difference between abortion and carrying a baby to term and giving it up for adoption.

Why should a woman be forced to undergo those physical, emotional, social, and financial costs and risks to carry a baby to term?
If we enacted legislation to limit the number of babies you can have, that would also solve a lot of problems. But anyone who tried to do that would get called a Nazi because people are too concerned with clinging to every right they have then to take action for the greater good.

If we enacted legislation to limit the number of babies you can have, that would also solve a lot of problems. But anyone who tried to do that would get called a Nazi because people are too concerned with clinging to every right they have then to take action for the greater good.

Gee, it's tough living in a Constitutional republic.

WE tend to value our freedom and rights.

If we enacted legislation to limit the number of babies you can have, that would also solve a lot of problems. But anyone who tried to do that would get called a Nazi because people are too concerned with clinging to every right they have then to take action for the greater good.

Well, now that's a hell of an idea. Say everyone is allowed to have two children. I don't want any. So I sell my right to two children to someone who desperately wants them for megabucks. THEN, I have all the sex I want. A girl gets knocked up- "sorry honey, you can't have the baby, my quota is already used up." Perfect!
[/sarcasm]

0_o Why do people care so much? It’s just a damn lump of cells right? Who the fuck gives a damn? Abortion is good for the economy. Unwanted children take my shit, damn it! The less the better.

A child should be able to be aborted at any time. Even in the third trimester, for any reason.
I don't think the government provides enough good alternatives to abortion. People are so busy trying to illegalise abortion, they don't think proactively.Ah, the abortion picketers. They're fun to laugh at.
If we enacted legislation to limit the number of babies you can have, that would also solve a lot of problems. But anyone who tried to do that would get called a Nazi because people are too concerned with clinging to every right they have then to take action for the greater good.You do realize that limiting personal rights for the “greater good” is fascism, don‘t you? Fuck that. Telling a woman she can only have a certain number of kids is just as bad as telling her she can’t have an abortion.

The way I see it:

If we can't use a lump of cells to recreate an organ for someone who is going to die, we can't use a lump of cells to birth a screaming, vomiting child. Abortions should never be forced and never be prohibited. The longer one waits to get an abortion, the more harmful it is to the mother, anyway, so that should be enough to make people consider it early if at all.

can I perform post natal abortions on anyone I find bothers me or causes me inconvience? (it would be really handy!) :D

can I perform post natal abortions on anyone I find bothers me or causes me inconvience? (it would be really handy!) :D

Well, anything's possible if you sleep with the right person. Mrs. Cartman got Bill Clinton to legalize 40th trimester abortions.

Gee, it's tough living in a Constitutional republic.

WE tend to value our freedom and rights.
From a personal perspective, you're correct. From the governments point of view, you have to do what would benefit the most people for the longest amount of time.

From a personal perspective, you're correct. From the governments point of view, you have to do what would benefit the most people for the longest amount of time.

From the US government's point of view, it must obey the Constitution and must honor it's citizen's fundamental liberties, such as reproductive rights.

It is no more correct to place a limit on the number of children a person can have than it is to ban abortion. Both violate reproductive rights protected by the 5th and 14th Amendments.

Look at it more closely...
If you read more closely still, you'll realise it's excluded mammal foetuses from an exclusion which states a parasite must be of a separate species.

Vegetarianistica']that's theoretical.
Well duh being the THEORY of evolution (I hope that was a bad joke)

And I'd like to add to this, I've missed PLENTY an opportunity to get laid because I had the intelligence to think beyond that night, and decided a baby was way more of a burden than having to go home and rub one off once again.
Have you ever heard of condomns? Quite useful little things, you know.

So then maybe they shouldn't engage in activity that leads to having children...
Have YOU ever heard of condoms? Quite useful they are.

Whats the problem with adoption? Theres tons of anti-abortion groups who'll be happy to take your kid, maybe even pay for any hospital fees, just so you don't kill it.
Adopted kids are 6 times more suicidal than others, they are 5 times more likely to get mental problems, they are much more likely to commit crimes etc etc. I'm not saying adoption is bad or wrong, just giving some information people should know about.

I'll try to find that study in English.

Approxiately 6 in 10 women who have abortions were using contraceptives when they became pregnant.
So that makes it 4 in 10 that chose not to, right?

(snip)....

And I'd like to add to this, I've missed PLENTY an opportunity to get laid because I had the intelligence to think beyond that night, and decided a baby was way more of a burden than having to go home and rub one off once again.


What exactly was the point of this? No-one's impressed you know.

Whenever the mother wants it.

People don't get pregnant because they want an abortion. An abortion is not a good experience, even for the most vile crackwhore. Having to have an abortion is IMHO enough of a punishment already for "not keeping your legs shut".
What about the Father(exculding rape etc.)? he should get a say. It's he's child to. and don't give me that It's the womend right to choose stuff. I demand equal rights. and the child is more importtant, anyway if the mother can't raise it, give it to the father or put it up for adobtion.

This thread makes me want to cry. Honestly. Talking about children as if they were nothing more than parasitic inconveniences. Anyone making such a post is clearly not (and probably never should be) a parent.

Abortion is a medical procedure, and like every other medical procedure, it should be made an option to licensed physicians, and never be outlawed.

Using abortion as a form of birth control is an abomination.

I had to get into this once with my sister and her family and it got kinda ugly but here is my 2 cents worth. While I might not personally make the choice for someone to have an abortion, it is not my choice to make. Sorry if it sounds cruel, but I long ago learned that reasonable debate is not possible with moralists. Anyway, the hard-line stance I found myself forced to adopt is that a fetus meets the biological definition of a parasite. Whether it is old enough to be "viable outside of the womb" or not, as long as it is inside the womb it is a parasite, not a person, and the mother has the right to determine for herself if she wants to have that parasite within her or if she wants to get rid of it as she might want to rid herself of a tapeworm. I am much more concerned about babies that are born to a family that does not want them and find subjecting an innocent being to such a life to be cruel and indefensible. Also, everyone I have ever spoken with who is against freedom of choice for women, in the end admits that it is on the basis of their personal morals and beliefs (and sometimes nothing more than what they WANT to believe rather than what they actually believe) stemming from their religious beliefs so, making a choice to deny another another the right to make a good OR bad decision for themselves and to live with the consequences of their decisions (including guilt or remorse).

Now to follow up on the living with the consequences of their personal decisions, if a woman makes a choice to have a child on her own and/or against the wishes of the father or anyone else, she had no right to ask the father, etc. for financial support (unless the conception was the result of a crime against the woman, i.e. she had no choice in deciding what happened to her). If she cannot support a child she chooses by herself to have then she needs to give up the baby. On the other hand, if a mother is forced to have a baby that she does not want, she should have no burden to be financially responsible for the child or even to raise it if she doesn't want to. Those burdens should fall on those who choose to make decisions for other people. If a country should choose to make abortions illegal, then everyone who thinks that they should be illegal should be required to give 25% of their net (not gross, not after taxes) income to a fund to support unwanted children who have been brought into the world by their choices which they inflict upon others.

Falkeep
Libertarian Monarchist


The only valid purpose of law is to protect people from each other, not to protect people from themselves. The only valid purpose for government is to enforce laws which protect people from each other and to do those things which individuals cannot do.

Rascism makes no sense to me. There are so many perfectly valid reasons for despising people that if you are reduced to using the color of their skin for an excuse you just aren't trying hard enough.

This thread makes me want to cry. Honestly. Talking about children as if they were nothing more than parasitic inconveniences. Anyone making such a post is clearly not (and probably never should be) a parent.

Abortion is a medical procedure, and like every other medical procedure, it should be made an option to licensed physicians, and never be outlawed.

Using abortion as a form of birth control is an abomination.

A child is not a parasite, a fetus is. It may seem cold but this is the medical definition.

A child is not a parasite, a fetus is. It may seem cold but this is the medical definition.Indeed. Additionally, abortion is rarely used as a form of birth control; as The Cat-Tribe pointed out, about 60% of abortions are from women who got pregnant while using birth control. Ergo, they have already made an active attempt to prevent pregnancy. It just didn't work.

Ironically, this thread seems to have evolved into an average abortion thread.

Carry on.

No, it started as the average abortion thread. One insensitive jerk of a man blaming it all on women for being such greedy pleasure loving whores, commanding them to keep their legs shut if they don't want to be baby machines.

No, it started as the average abortion thread. One insensitive jerk of a man blaming it all on women for being such greedy pleasure loving whores, commanding them to keep their legs shut if they don't want to be baby machines.

Mind you they're usually slightly more discreet until a few pages in.

Mind you they're usually slightly more discreet until a few pages in.
This is true.

A child is not a parasite

HA! Don't have kids, do ya? ;) :D

Mother can't keep her legs shut.
Mother doesn't want to be "bothered" with a baby.
Mother isn't financial ready for a baby. (shouldn't be getting pregnat then)
Mother and Father aren't together any more. (too bad, get child support, lock him up if he won't pay)
Mother has too many children already. (shoulda kept your legs shut)
Mother's job may be affected. (should've thought of that ahead of time, shouldn't you?)

Dude... what the U£("&£(" is wrong with yoU??!??!?!?! Contraception doesnt always work ya damned republican.
Reason 3 is a perfectly valid reason, the child might have a crap life, which is worse than none.
I agree with reason 2, adoption is best in this case.
Reason 1,5... (Gets shotgun) some people deserve this soooooo bad...
Contraception doesnt always work duuuuh
reason 6... Uuum... im borderline on this. It depends on the job and the prospects.

A baby cannot learn anything in the womb, therefore it has no knowledge.
As it has no knowledge in my opinion it has no rights.

'Should've kept her legs shut'...

What the hell kind of Draconian society is this?

Sex isn't just for procreation; there is a certain amount of pleasure and health benefits to be derived from it.

Yes there are irresponsible people, but such people are common place no matter where you go in life.

What is moral ro one person may be immoral or amoral to another. It is wrong of us to force our views onto someone else simple because we think they are wrong due to misguided beliefs that have been dictated through religious conditioning.

Legal/Illegal - As long as it's not the third trimester (since the unborn fetus has the greatest chance of survival outside the womb at that point and it has developed the majority of its vital organs and such), we really shouldn't have a say in it.

Further, by that point anyway, medical reason aside, since they are usually valid, the woman should've made up her mind, if not, by the third trimester, it's kind of obvious she intends to keep it.

Legal: In all cases.
Illegal: Never.

I will go a step further and say that if an unmarried couple become pregnant, and the man offers to pay for an abortion and the woman refuses- she has given up any legal right to receive child support.

I am sure I will incur flame filled responses, but that's the way I see it.

I whole-heartedly concur.

Anyone woman who has sex with either Fiddles, TSI, Harlesburg, myself, Red Arrow, or Drunk Commies.
He actually speaks the truth.

I'm not interested in who is "for" or "against" abortion. I'm far more curious as to what you consider a good reason to get one.

So what exactly constitutes what you would consider a reason for abortion that should be legal? Try to be detailed. Here's mine.

Legal


Carrying the baby to a term that it could survive may kill the mother.
The mother has become pregnat due to any type of unconsenting sex. (rape, molestation)
Mother is mentally unfit to carry (not take care of) the child.


Illegal


Mother can't keep her legs shut.
Mother doesn't want to be "bothered" with a baby.
Mother isn't financial ready for a baby. (shouldn't be getting pregnat then)
Mother and Father aren't together any more. (too bad, get child support, lock him up if he won't pay)
Mother has too many children already. (shoulda kept your legs shut)
Mother's job may be affected. (should've thought of that ahead of time, shouldn't you?)



I don't mind a womans right to choose is she is in danger, or pregnat through no fault of her own, however choosing to be a slut isn't a good enough reason to have an abortion.

And I'd like to add to this, I've missed PLENTY an opportunity to get laid because I had the intelligence to think beyond that night, and decided a baby was way more of a burden than having to go home and rub one off once again.

What a total insult to women.

About half of all U.S. women will have an abortion at some point in their lives.

6 in 10 women who have abortions were using contraceptives when they became pregnant

6 in 10 women who have abortions in the US already have one or more children.

Perhaps women aren't mindless sluts that must be taught to keep their legs shut or have their rights taken away.

And I'd like to add to this, I've missed PLENTY an opportunity to get laid because I had the intelligence to think beyond that night, and decided a baby was way more of a burden than having to go home and rub one off once again.


This is my favourite bit; only an actual real-life moron would consider this an appropriate or impressive sign-off.