NationStates Jolt Archive

Surprise, surprise.

The Europeans investigate...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/25/international/europe/25cia.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print

Told you so. Sounds like the rendition program was real (and we already knew that), but these people were on their way to somewhere else, not to any "secret prison" in Europe.

STRASBOURG, France, Jan. 24 - An inquiry by the Council of Europe into allegations that the C.I.A. has operated secret detention centers in Eastern Europe has turned up no evidence that such centers ever existed, though the leader of the inquiry, Dick Marty, said there are enough "indications" to justify continuing the investigation.

The report added, however, that it was "highly unlikely" that European governments were unaware of the American program of renditions, in which terrorism suspects were either seized in or transferred through Europe to third countries where they may have been tortured. Drawing from news reports, Mr. Marty contended that "more than a hundred" detainees have been moved anonymously and illegally through Europe under the program.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. The investigation is not even complete.

However, it would change very little if the prisons were never found - the renditions are still highly illegal and deplorable.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. The investigation is not even complete.

However, it would change very little if the prisons were never found - the renditions are still highly illegal and deplorable.

Can't prove a negative Fass. It's on the Europeans to prove the secret prisons existed. Otherwise, they never did. Or did you miss logic class?

Can't prove a negative Fass. It's on the Europeans to prove the secret prisons existed. Otherwise, they never did. Or did you miss logic class?

If Christians can't prove God exists, then he doesn't exist?

If Christians can't prove God exists, then he doesn't exist?
Sounds like science and logic, not faith, to me.

Are you saying that the existence of secret prisons is a matter of faith, like the Easter Bunny?

If Christians can't prove God exists, then he doesn't exist?

For reasons that arent clear to me, religous people would argue thats very different.

Exactly, this is something that needs hard evidence. God needs no such proof. You either believe or you don't. I really hope tat this is all for naught. It's depressing to know that your government enjoys torturing people.

Oh that's all right then: they weren't being tortured in Europe, they were just stopping here on their way to be tortured elsewhere. :rolleyes:

Can't prove a negative Fass. It's on the Europeans to prove the secret prisons existed. Otherwise, they never did. Or did you miss logic class?
Say there's a shooting. The Police know the guy who did it, and he knows he did it, but when it comes to court they don't have the evidence and he's found not guilty.

Does that mean he didn't do it?

Can't prove a negative Fass. It's on the Europeans to prove the secret prisons existed.

Which part of "the investigation is not complete" did you not understand?

Otherwise, they never did. Or did you miss logic class?

Oh, the irony of those two phrases juxtaposed almost makes me giggle.

Say there's a shooting. The Police know the guy who did it, and he knows he did it, but when it comes to court they don't have the evidence and he's found not guilty.

Does that mean he didn't do it?
Yes, until proven otherwise.

Otherwise, until you prove God doesn't exist, you had better get on your knees and pray to Him.

If Christians can't prove God exists, then he doesn't exist?
Well that's what I've been saying all along.

Yes, until proven otherwise.

Otherwise, until you prove God doesn't exist, you had better get on your knees and pray to Him.
No, it doesn't change the fact that he did it, you can't change things that have happened. You can try and convince people it didn't

It just means that he did a good job of not leaving enough evidence.

Can't prove a negative Fass.

and yet...

Yes, until proven otherwise.

Otherwise, until you prove God doesn't exist, you had better get on your knees and pray to Him.

you want us to prove a negative.

Who failed his logic class now?

Surprise, surprise.

The Europeans investigate...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/25/international/europe/25cia.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print

Told you so. Sounds like the rendition program was real (and we already knew that), but these people were on their way to somewhere else, not to any "secret prison" in Europe.

I fail to see your point? The investigation is not yet complete, and there are "enough 'indications' to justify continuing" it, apparently?

so, DK, are you incapable of reading or just delusionally hopeful? cause this is 1)a preliminary report based largely on publicly available sources, 2)still finds the allegations credible, 3)is gathering more data, and 4)states that they know that some people know more than they are telling but have refused to do so, probably because of pressure from the u.s.

First we have

Sounds like science and logic, not faith, to me.

Are you saying that the existence of secret prisons is a matter of faith, like the Easter Bunny?

And then...

Yes, until proven otherwise.

Otherwise, until you prove God doesn't exist, you had better get on your knees and pray to Him.

Y'know, being a patriot is one thing, but blind nationalism isn't good for anybody. Your arguments are riddled with contradictions and fallacies and you've only made a few posts.

Look, DK, it seems to me that you enjoy the whole right wing patriot thing (and thats cool), but you shouldn't let your political stance control you. The fact is that things aren't looking great for the U.S. in this situation, that doesn't call for captain DK to swing on in to the rescue to beat of the "European finger-pointers". What it does call for is inquiry, serious inquiry.

Wasn't it one of your original presidents (jefferson?) who said the greatest patriot is a dissident. The powers that be have to be held accountable for their actions. Being as lucky as they are to be in charge of a democratic state, they are accountible to the U.S. public. That's you DK. If you refuse to contemplate the possibility of U.S. war crimes, you are directly damaging the foundation of freedom upon which you stand.

Maybe the U.S. didn't do any of this, maybe they did. Either way, they must be investigated, and the investigation must be taken seriously.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. The investigation is not even complete.

However, it would change very little if the prisons were never found - the renditions are still highly illegal and deplorable.

...your first sentence applies also to WMD... inasmuch as there is no possible way we've checked all of Iraq.

Sounds like science and logic, not faith, to me.

Are you saying that the existence of secret prisons is a matter of faith, like the Easter Bunny?

No, though I am not surprised that my point evaded you. According to your previous statement, if something cannot be proven to exist (secret prisons), then they do not exist. Therefore, if something cannot be proven to exist (God, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus), then they do not exist.

Yes, until proven otherwise.

So the man on trial didn't kill the victim until evidence is found to show that he did, at which point he suddenly retrospectively did kill the man?

Day 0: man killed. Joe Bloggs didn't kill him.
Day 1: investigation begins. No evidence found. Joe Bloggs didn't kill him.
Day 2: evidence is found. Joe Bloggs did kill him.

Legal reasoning is a very different thing from logic, and it doesn't pay to muddle the two.

...your first sentence applies also to WMD... inasmuch as there is no possible way we've checked all of Iraq.

Hence why you should have had proof before going in. But you didn't. So, no, this is nothing like the WMD.

Surprise, surprise.

The Europeans investigate...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/25/international/europe/25cia.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print

Told you so. Sounds like the rendition program was real (and we already knew that), but these people were on their way to somewhere else, not to any "secret prison" in Europe.

Well I feel better. No secret prisons. They were just shipped out and tortured elsewhere. I can sleep soundly now. :)

Hence why you should have had proof before going in. But you didn't. So, no, this is nothing like the WMD.
It's the same idea.

Saddam would have to prove a negative.

Here, the investigators would have to prove a negative.

Exactly the same.

But I thought us Americans tortured anyone we liked, whenever we felt like it? Why would we need to fly them off to be tortured elsewhere when we obviously have a troture room in every garage in America?

But I thought us Americans tortured anyone we liked, whenever we felt like it? Why would we need to fly them off to be tortured elsewhere when we obviously have a troture room in every garage in America?

Basement. I mean... um... what was the question again?

;)

It's the same idea.

Saddam would have to prove a negative.

Exactly. Why the US demands on Iraq were illogical. The US should have had proof, as theirs was the positive to prove, before going in. But they didn't.

Here, the investigators would have to prove a negative.

Finding the prisons is proving a negative? Really, that comment about logic class is something you should have told yourself. :rolleyes:

It's the same idea.

Saddam would have to prove a negative.

Here, the investigators would have to prove a negative.

Exactly the same.

I think you have a very perverted view of burden of proof. Here, the investigators have to prove that the secret prisons existed, otherwise, the US cannot be held accountable for them. In the case of Iraq, the US had to prove that the WMDs existed, otherwise, Saddam could not be held accountable for them. But neither mean that they did not exist.

But I thought us Americans tortured anyone we liked, whenever we felt like it? Why would we need to fly them off to be tortured elsewhere when we obviously have a troture room in every garage in America?

outsourcing.

you see, offshore torture facilities use cheaper labor which also is already skilled at the job. and they have more recent equipment than american ones, which makes it more profitable to do there than it is to update the old ones here.

besides, karimov is offering group discounts on boiling people alive. we'd be insane not to take advantage of that.

I think you have a very perverted view of burden of proof. Here, the investigators have to prove that the secret prisons existed, otherwise, the US cannot be held accountable for them. In the case of Iraq, the US had to prove that the WMDs existed, otherwise, Saddam could not be held accountable for them. But neither mean that they did not exist.
I'm saying by Fass' standards, the investigators would have to prove that the prisons did not exist.

I'm saying by Fass' standards, the investigators would have to prove that the prisons did not exist.

No. By my standards, the investigation would have to be concluded.

No. By my standards, the investigation would have to be concluded.

:)

First we have



And then...



Y'know, being a patriot is one thing, but blind nationalism isn't good for anybody. Your arguments are riddled with contradictions and fallacies and you've only made a few posts.
No, let's be fair. A broader appreciation of DK's posts is necessary ... and upon review, it turns out that the VAST MAJORITY of DK's posts qualify as
riddled with contradictions and fallacies.
But the investigation is still under way .... ;)

In Italy, prosecutors have charged 22 people identified by authorities there as CIA operatives with snatching a militant imam and flying him to Egypt to be tortured. In Germany, authorities are investigating the case of a Lebanese-born German citizen who accuses American agents of spiriting him from Macedonia to an Afghan interrogation facility, then releasing him after five months when they realized they had the wrong man.

The report also cites a case in which Swiss spies intercepted a fax from Egyptian diplomats in Cairo to the Egyptian Embassy in London making apparent reference to U.S.-run detention facilities in Eastern Europe. The group Human Rights Watch has alleged that secret CIA sites operated in Romania and Poland. Those governments have opened investigations. The issue of CIA sites in Eastern Europe first surfaced in a report in the Washington Post in November.

...

Wonder how Maher Arar's doing ....

outsourcing.

you see, offshore torture facilities use cheaper labor which also is already skilled at the job. and they have more recent equipment than american ones, which makes it more profitable to do there than it is to update the old ones here.

besides, karimov is offering group discounts on boiling people alive. we'd be insane not to take advantage of that.
Well, I guess I can't argue with that logic. But damnit, there are plenty of Americans willing to do the job! Damn outsourcing! :headbang:

...your first sentence applies also to WMD... inasmuch as there is no possible way we've checked all of Iraq.

The difference being that the investigations in Iraq are over, the orginized search for WMD's is terminated, and it seems as there are no indications that Iraq actually had those weapons at the time of the invasion.

Well, I guess I can't argue with that logic. But damnit, there are plenty of Americans willing to do the job! Damn outsourcing! :headbang:
Not enough torture at home for you? :cool: