NationStates Jolt Archive

What do you think?

Please try to keep posts informed and dont just say "omg bush suxx0rz"

As for me, I think it is. For some strange reason, I think the Iraqi war is all about the oil-- purely economic with no regard for the iraqi welfare. I think Bush just needed a cover to get oil, and Saddam was right there. He tries to make it sound like the US is doing good, but since things kind of backfired (aka no WMD's) he has had to stay in Iraq to do somthing instead of just getting in, getting the oil, and getting out like he should have if that was just what he was doing. No real need to have been in there all this time. Also, one of the charecteristics of Imperialism is racism, and while it isnt blatently obvious, I think the whole "It's our duty as americans to help less fortunate countries" is a nice way of saying Americans are better than everyone else-- a better race, if you will, so it's our duty to help those poor pther countries who don't know better.

Oh well, thats my two cents! :D

I don't think the US is imperialist. We don't actually create collonies overseas. I've heard some people argue that our imperialism is more subtle, but they've failed to convince me that it's actually imperialism. It always seems to me that they're moving the goalposts to justify their position.

I also don't believe that Iraq was primarily about oil. Sure oil will always be somewhat of a factor whenever you deal with that region, but I think the war was primarily ideological. Bush and company decided that spreading democracy to the middle east would be good for business and bad for terrorism. They just didn't take into account the problems involved in spreading democracy.

we've been imperialist since 1898. thank you, teddy rooselvelt(sp?).

how long until we end up like europe? the british, not the french. No, the helpful other power, no the why-the-hell-are-we-participating-in-anything other power.

name a "territory" of the u.s. colonies=imperialism, 200 years too late.

we've been imperialist since 1898. thank you, teddy rooselvelt(sp?).

how long until we end up like europe? the british, not the french. No, the helpful other power, no the why-the-hell-are-we-participating-in-anything other power.

name a "territory" of the u.s. colonies=imperialism, 200 years too late.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't US possesions like Puerto Rico periodically vote on whether to remain part of the US? How is that imperialistic?

Not imperialist, just idiotic in its foreign policy.
Imperialism would at least be an excuse for what Washington is doing, but in actuality its just ideology driven bullshit.

Not imperialist, just idiotic in its foreign policy.
Imperialism would at least be an excuse for what Washington is doing, but in actuality its just ideology driven bullshit.
Imperialism is ideologically driven. Its the highest form of nationalism.

economic imperialism. but, to be honest, it's necessary. i agree, what we are doing isn't great, but if we weren't the imperialist we were our economy would be far weaker, and the nation would be worse off... pretty much every arguement anyone can make demonizing the United States can be argued against because, to be totally honest, nearly everything we've done has been in our best interest. but, the thing is. do you think that is any justification for what we've done? i'm still trying to decide.

puerto rico is the only one. samoa, usvi, no votes.

puerto rico in congress is a joke. you can't vote on it, but it affects you. your vote is chuckled at.

puerto rico voted to stay out twice, if i'm correct

What do you think?

Please try to keep posts informed and dont just say "omg bush suxx0rz"

As for me, I think it is. For some strange reason, I think the Iraqi war is all about the oil-- purely economic with no regard for the iraqi welfare. I think Bush just needed a cover to get oil, and Saddam was right there. He tries to make it sound like the US is doing good, but since things kind of backfired (aka no WMD's) he has had to stay in Iraq to do somthing instead of just getting in, getting the oil, and getting out like he should have if that was just what he was doing. No real need to have been in there all this time. Also, one of the charecteristics of Imperialism is racism, and while it isnt blatently obvious, I think the whole "It's our duty as americans to help less fortunate countries" is a nice way of saying Americans are better than everyone else-- a better race, if you will, so it's our duty to help those poor pther countries who don't know better.

Oh well, thats my two cents! :D

Well this is my two cents. Your a noob liberal, who desperately needs to be informed about life. Also your an idiot, and more importantly, your another one of those feeble little minds who have been taken over by hollywood and their teachings, all in all, unless you come around 180 degrees, there is no hope for you.

And thats my two cents!

economic imperialism. but, to be honest, it's necessary. i agree, what we are doing isn't great, but if we weren't the imperialist we were our economy would be far weaker, and the nation would be worse off... pretty much every arguement anyone can make demonizing the United States can be argued against because, to be totally honest, nearly everything we've done has been in our best interest. but, the thing is. do you think that is any justification for what we've done? i'm still trying to decide.
Who is to say that imperialism is even wrong?

Who is to say that imperialism is even wrong?

The weak cultures that are imperialized. :p

that was four cents. maybe we can save up for a whole dollar bill someday!

no, that wasn't a rash response to a n00b with different views. he's not right, but not retarded and brainwashed, like some of us. :rolleyes:

i am stupid for posting this

Imperialism is ideologically driven. Its the highest form of nationalism.Imperialism is supposed to benefit the motherland. We fuck ourselves in that ass in matters of foreign policy. Either it’s the most idiotic imperialism ever, or it’s a different ideology, that being the neo-con “spreading democracy” thing.

Those morons don’t even realize democracy isn’t a goal, it’s a means to an end. It doesn’t automatically fix all or even most of a country’s problems, especially when its population is too ignorant to possibly come to an informed or reasonable consensus. Saddam will be better than whatever government emerges in Iraq.

The weak cultures that are imperialized. :p
Or other empires ;)

Well this is my two cents. Your a noob liberal, who desperately needs to be informed about life. Also your an idiot, and more importantly, your another one of those feeble little minds who have been taken over by hollywood and their teachings, all in all, unless you come around 180 degrees, there is no hope for you.

And thats my two cents!

Fact. GWBush took America into a war based on lies.... WMD's
Fact. The largest companies to have benefitted from the Iraqi war are controlled by G Bush snr's best buddies...

Fact. If there was no oil in Iraq... the Americans would not be there at all...
Fact. Why did GWBush allow all of Bin Ladens relatives to leave the US, when all flights apart from military ones were grounded.


I know I am new to all this, but where do you get off calling someone an idiot? He asked you replied no need for abuse, or is that a lesson you learned from Bush and Chaney, call everyone who disagrees an idiot?

Your "facts" are anything but.

Imperialism isnt nessiaeraly (sp?) colonization.

Basiclly, it's the seizure of a smaller country by a larger one.

Sounds like colonization?
That's because colonization = imperialism, but not really the other way around.
There are four types of imperialism.

Form | Definition
1) Colony =*A country or territory goverened by a foreign power.
2) Protectorate =*A country or territory with its own internal
government but under control of an
outside power.
3) Sphere of Influence = *An area in which an outside power claims exclusive
investment or trading rights.
4) Economic Imperialism=* An independent but less developed country controlled by private business intrests


Hopefully that clears thing up. Iraq sounds a bit like a Protectorate, dosn't it?

Aren't protectorates usually colonies that are given more freedom?

Keeping the main past debates a side;


An EMPIRE is defined as when once a state over-reaches it's boarders via economic, cultural{also thier ethos/govt. type} or military means, that any, some or all of these over-flow into other States and excibit direct influence on that States soverign actions.

Yes, the US falls into that. It should come as no suprise to anyone outside U.S. media that this is true, it's a NEUTRAL fact, please strip it of it's connitations, that America has been since it's civil war Imperialist in nature - that is to say, expansionist in all of the above factors, Economic, Cultural and Military.

Again, before we start saying 'This is a terrible thing!' or 'Why should the US tell anyone else what to do?' , the debate has to come from the fact that this is how things stand.

And the fundemental reason any nation over-flows thier boarders tends to simply that they can and have the courage/gaul to do so directly.

Fact. GWBush took America into a war based on lies.... WMD's
Fact. The largest companies to have benefitted from the Iraqi war are controlled by G Bush snr's best buddies...

Fact. If there was no oil in Iraq... the Americans would not be there at all...
Fact. Why did GWBush allow all of Bin Ladens relatives to leave the US, when all flights apart from military ones were grounded.


I know I am new to all this, but where do you get off calling someone an idiot? He asked you replied no need for abuse, or is that a lesson you learned from Bush and Chaney, call everyone who disagrees an idiot?

I'm gonna have to question some of your "facts" here, buddy.

First of all, lots of people have benefited from this war, hell people benefit from all wars, wars our good for our economy, they make money, how do you think we got out of the great depression, so there goes anything else you were gonna say with that.

And also, you have no idea if he lied, he could have recieved false intel, or the iraqis moved their weapons out of the country into another arab country, or little green men from mars came down, or he did lie. My point is, you have no idea. And you, nor I will probably EVER have any idea.

Also, on your third fact, how the hell do you know we wouldnt be there if there was no oil there, and what kind of dictionary did you look like for the word fact. This is not a fact at all, its your opinion...lol....:rolleyes: :p

For the whole Bin Lades relatives thing, from what I understand this is something that Moore put in Farenheit 911 and either lied about, or changed the story to his likings, or invented it. I have not seen any evidence aside from his "movie" that talks about this otherwise.

And lastly, what are you assuming with Osama Bin Ladens family? That Bush was in on the whole 911 thing? That Bush supports Osama? Wtf are you playing at?

Oh and by the way, the whole idiot thing and attacking noobs I learned from Cheney during the 2004 vice presidential debates. He ate Edwards for lunch, mwahahah

America is Imperialist in every sense. They are the new Rome and the word has to recongise this.

They conquer to sustain themeselves similiar to what the Romans did then they over strech themselves and that starts their Empire cylces decline, America has been an Empire since the 1950s since their unofficially over 300 conficts america has fought.

Romans leaders of technology in the Ancient world, America leading the way via space and creation of the information highway.

Military might, americas is unrivalled in technology and the costs that their are willing to wage that war at.

Their colonies as some may say either don't exist or are a fraud well we know they have satellites (nations) and install governments that are favourable to them in many nations, the age of the CIA ego maniac period.

Economically america is far the superior than any other nation and their dominance of that can be seen in the worlds largest companies which are american, Wal mart, General Motors and Ford. Their GDP/sales is larger than the next three nations combined which are Japan, Germany and France.


Of course america is the new rome, the only reason why americans don't see themselves as the leaders of the world is because of your history where you guys fought the imperialism which you have now become. The rebel nation as it were, you don't accept that you have become what your indepence and most of your culture comes from.

Too those who say i may be liberal or a bish basher i am in your america a Republican or a stauch liberal here in order words a capitialist republican.

That is my opinion a 15 year old kid from the greatest nation on earth Australia writting in the greatest city in the world sydney.

See my posts above where I talk about his "facts"

nevermind, you deleted your post, lol.

I'm gonna have to question some of your "facts" here, buddy.

First of all, lots of people have benefited from this war, hell people benefit from all wars, wars our good for our economy, they make money, how do you think we got out of the great depression, so there goes anything else you were gonna say with that.

And also, you have no idea if he lied, he could have recieved false intel, or the iraqis moved their weapons out of the country into another arab country, or little green men from mars came down, or he did lie. My point is, you have no idea. And you, nor I will probably EVER have any idea.

Also, on your third fact, how the hell do you know we wouldnt be there if there was no oil there, and what kind of dictionary did you look like for the word fact. This is not a fact at all, its your opinion...lol....:rolleyes: :p

For the whole Bin Lades relatives thing, from what I understand this is something that Moore put in Farenheit 911 and either lied about, or changed the story to his likings, or invented it. I have not seen any evidence aside from his "movie" that talks about this otherwise.

And lastly, what are you assuming with Osama Bin Ladens family? That Bush was in on the whole 911 thing? That Bush supports Osama? Wtf are you playing at?

Oh and by the way, the whole idiot thing and attacking noobs I learned from Cheney during the 2004 vice presidential debates. He ate Edwards for lunch, mwahahah

OK accepted, opinion not fact. But in the UK we are in a similar boat, we were lied to by Tony Blair about the WMD and he got his info from both Itelligence sevices.

But honestly do you really believe that if there was no Oil the US would still be there?

Plus wht the Fek is a noob anyway lol

Fels'].

Economically america is far the superior than any other nation and their dominance of that can be seen in the worlds largest companies which are american, Wal mart, General Motors and Ford. Their GDP/sales is larger than the next three nations combined which are Japan, Germany and France.

Combine the EU countries, and figures show something very different though.

As for why the USA rejects its imperialism, its nothing to do with shame. Its more to do with stealth. Only a fool overtly acts in an imperialist manner nowadays. Rather, its to covertly spread its influence. Tell people you're not an empire, and they might just believe you.

For the whole Bin Lades relatives thing, from what I understand this is something that Moore put in Farenheit 911 and either lied about, or changed the story to his likings, or invented it. I have not seen any evidence aside from his "movie" that talks about this otherwise.

And lastly, what are you assuming with Osama Bin Ladens family? That Bush was in on the whole 911 thing? That Bush supports Osama? Wtf are you playing at?

Oh and by the way, the whole idiot thing and attacking noobs I learned from Cheney during the 2004 vice presidential debates. He ate Edwards for lunch, mwahahah

Moore didn't exactly make it up, just misinterpreted it. Osama's family are friends of the Bushies, that's part of how Osama got his training, but once Osama became a terrorist both groups officially disowned him. Letting his family go avoided the instinct to blame Saudi Arabia, but it didn't help Osama.

We are an imperialist nation. We're enforcing our political ideas and most likely economic ideas as well (capitalism and democracy, anyone?) on to Iraq.

That's like the whole point of the Iraq War really. It's all basically imperialism but in the new dawn. It's sort of less obvious, really.

That's why some of them do not want us to be there. That's why we have insurgents over there trying to kill American troops, as well as those that are allied with us -- the United Kingdom or Britain.

OK accepted, opinion not fact. But in the UK we are in a similar boat, we were lied to by Tony Blair about the WMD and he got his info from both Itelligence sevices.

But honestly do you really believe that if there was no Oil the US would still be there?

Plus wht the Fek is a noob anyway lol

Lol...alright, and sorry for yelling at you.

Heres my point. You, nor I, nor 99% of the people on this earth know if Bush/Blair lied, got bad intel, or there really was wmd but it was moved out before we got there. We really dont know, so to automatically assume he lied is very...baby-ish.

And yes I honestly beleive we would still be there even if there was no Oil there. Liberals and opponents of the Iraq war call it the new Veitnam war...well there was no oil in Veitnam yet we were there. Hmm...could it really be that we are actually trying to do some good?

LOL...and a noob is short for a newbie which is something new at something, for instance, you at this forum, :p :D lol.

Thanks, ooerr Im a noob lol

Combine the EU countries, and figures show something very different though.

Of course, but the EU would then have to work which involves Europeans loses their unique culture and the French and the English cooperating.

Needless to say I wont hold my breath.

But, on a friendlier note, lol. I really think that the EU is bad for Europe. I honestly dont think countries that, since the begging of Europe have been killing each other, can all combine, but more importantly, I think it will really kill European culture. Anyway I know that if I was a Euro I would definatly want to try to stay out of the EU, like Switzerland. Thats just my opinion and I do recognize all the great things that could happen for Europe should it really work.

That is my opinion a 15 year old kid from the greatest nation on earth Australia.
A fifteen year old with a poor grasp of history.

We actually called ourselves imperialists at the dawn of the twentieth century. If we are imperialist, it certainly didn’t’ begin in 1950.

Thanks, ooerr Im a noob lol

did you read my reply?

Micheal moore is so bad or sorry so good at distorting fact from fiction but it is still gets the message out their no matter how blurred, and the americans are hated around Middle east becuase of their involvement in saudi arabia, troops on their soil, now iraq, their capitialist ways, the stealing from palestine and supporting a nation that has no right to exist. And don't forget arrogance

Of course, but the EU would then have to work which involves Europeans loses their unique culture and the French and the English cooperating.

Needless to say I wont hold my breath.

But, on a friendlier note, lol. I really think that the EU is bad for Europe. I honestly dont think countries that, since the begging of Europe have been killing each other, can all combine, but more importantly, I think it will really kill European culture. Anyway I know that if I was a Euro I would definatly want to try to stay out of the EU, like Switzerland. Thats just my opinion and I do recognize all the great things that could happen for Europe should it really work.

there are many of us "simple folk" in the UK who are terrified of the rights that we have fought for over centuries being eroded by a faceless unaccountable EU dictatorship.

I'm gonna have to question some of your "facts" here, buddy... For the whole Bin Lades relatives thing, from what I understand this is something that Moore put in Farenheit 911 and either lied about, or changed the story to his likings, or invented it. I have not seen any evidence aside from his "movie" that talks about this otherwise.


Yeah I just looked into this, I sort of assumed it actually happened, but can't find any evidence in an actual newspaper. Hmm :confused: However, do still think we went to war on a false prospectus. I'm not going to get into whether Bush did that purposely, or if he didn't have the right advice, or who might have lied to him, etc etc... besides we've got enough of that to deal with over here w/ Blair :rolleyes: .

Of course, but the EU would then have to work which involves Europeans loses their unique culture and the French and the English cooperating.

Needless to say I wont hold my breath.

But, on a friendlier note, lol. I really think that the EU is bad for Europe. I honestly dont think countries that, since the begging of Europe have been killing each other, can all combine, but more importantly, I think it will really kill European culture. Anyway I know that if I was a Euro I would definatly want to try to stay out of the EU, like Switzerland. Thats just my opinion and I do recognize all the great things that could happen for Europe should it really work.
I have the confidence in it to believe it will work. It may, in the end, preserve rather than kill our cultures, by giving each nation huge economic clout. Nations that would otherwise be dominated by more powerful nations, like China or the USA, economically speaking anyway. So I hope it will work.

Fels']Micheal moore is so bad or sorry so good at distorting fact from fiction but it is still gets the message out their no matter how blurred, and the americans are hated around Middle east becuase of their involvement in saudi arabia, troops on their soil, now iraq, their capitialist ways, the stealing from palestine and supporting a nation that has no right to exist. And don't forget arrogance

Fuck you.

Who the hell are you to say Israel has no right to exist.

Go shack up with Ahmejardsakjdfjkldaslfk, whatever that piece of shit arab nazi's name is.

there are many of us "simple folk" in the UK who are terrified of the rights that we have fought for over centuries being eroded by a faceless unaccountable EU dictatorship.
Then leave the EU and form your own economic/political union.

The european union is a joke unless the british join

Fels']The european union is a joke unless the british join
Are you trying to make me laugh?

Then leave the EU and form your own economic/political union.

There are some of us in the UK who want to do just that,

I have the confidence in it to believe it will work. It may, in the end, preserve rather than kill our cultures, by giving each nation huge economic clout. Nations that would otherwise be dominated by more powerful nations, like China or the USA, economically speaking anyway. So I hope it will work.

Well...as your friend I say I hope it works out for you and your country, as an ugly American I say I hope it fails and we continue dominating...MWAHAHAH......and also I really feel its better for the individual cultures if it fails. AND I forgot to mention this. I think its gonna kill the North/West when they have to bring the former Soviet bloc/balkans up to date with the North/West.....Will be like a big German reunification....and West Germany still hasnt recovered economically from that. Think about that....

There are some of us in the UK who want to do just that,
I would agree to it. I mean, it would restore Britain's status and give it the freedom it so wants. It would also get rid of a very unwilling partner in the EU.

Are you trying to make me laugh?

Dont listen to that bastard...hes a fucking pig that needs to go live with the arabs. Israel has no right to exist...fuck him.

Well...as your friend I say I hope it works out for you and your country, as an ugly American I say I hope it fails and we continue dominating...MWAHAHAH......and also I really feel its better for the individual cultures if it fails. AND I forgot to mention this. I think its gonna kill the North/West when they have to bring the former Soviet bloc/balkans up to date with the North/West.....Will be like a big German reunification....and West Germany still hasnt recovered economically from that. Think about that....
Its working quite well actually, so far. The new states are picking up very fast, and the old ones haven't made any losses.

Why does irsael have the right to exist, why and don't tell because of the Holocaust, i mean really why they stole from people who have an equal case to own that land and not be bitch slapped by a UN then has ignored them. Why do you think the middle east hates irsael because they stole their land. You cannot by any ones standard do that, you don't tell me that i am a nazi you retard look at facts not the person behind them.

Its working quite well actually, so far. The new states are picking up very fast, and the old ones haven't made any losses.

If you say so.

I'm not trying to be an asshole...I'm really just taking your word for it, lol.

Then I guess things are going well, and hopefully they continue to:)

I don't want to seem cruel, but Israel has absolutely no right to exist. At all. I'm all for Jewish people, but the Allies didn't have to steal land from Palestine just to kiss their ass. Maybe I don't really know the history of it, if anyone wants to correct me?

If you say so.

I'm not trying to be an asshole...I'm really just taking your word for it, lol.

Then I guess things are going well, and hopefully they continue to:)
Right now the problem is in which direction do we go? More expansion or more integration? Or maybe both. Once we get that worked out, the EU will continue empowering itself. Becoming deeper rather than wider is what it should do now. It may one day take on Norway and Russia, when its more organised. I don't see it failing though. We can't afford that, not with China and India on the rise.

the jews fled irsael during the dispersion and then the whole thing happened in WW2 and america felt bad because they were close to becoming a facist state madision square garden 20,000 people gathered under neath the nazi ideal, it was a very popular ideal.

Fels']The european union is a joke unless the british join

:headbang:

We did join. In 1975, just so you know. Anyway, if we hadn't joined, the thing wouldn't have been a joke but sure it wouldn't have been as strong politically/economically. That's the problem though, we can't seem to agree on anything important n keep arguing over regulations etc.

I think a lot people get scared at the very mention of the name 'European Union', bcos its called a Union, people tend to think its a (favourite phrase) superstate i.e. very integrated but that's not the case. Also French & Germans, although they're more willing than us to give up certain things, certainly don't want to be just Europeans. Everyone has various identities: town, country, cultural etc.

Well, I hope it all works out. Couldn't care less if we had the Euro or the Pound, really. (Feel free to abuse me for that bit)

An Americanized twist on Imperialism?

I don't want to seem cruel, but Israel has absolutely no right to exist. At all. I'm all for Jewish people, but the Allies didn't have to steal land from Palestine just to kiss their ass. Maybe I don't really know the history of it, if anyone wants to correct me?

I agree. I don't hate Jewish people or anything, but I do believe that there was no right for the Allied forces to have taken land from Palestine and designating it as a new country. Yes, that's pretty much why Palestinians are fighting with the Israelis so much.

That's also a big reason why a lot of the Middle Eastern countries hate us, as in the United States. We our aiding Israel. They have high-tech weapons that we, Americans, gave them. What do the Palestinians have? Rocks.

Fels']the jews fled irsael during the dispersion and then the whole thing happened in WW2 and america felt bad because they were close to becoming a facist state madision square garden 20,000 people gathered under neath the nazi ideal, it was a very popular ideal.

OMG....we have hundreds of millions of people in our country, and becuase a group of nazis came together in new york you say we almost became facist and it was a very popular idea???? Gimme a fucking break.

Fels']Why does irsael have the right to exist, why and don't tell because of the Holocaust, i mean really why they stole from people who have an equal case to own that land and not be bitch slapped by a UN then has ignored them. Why do you think the middle east hates irsael because they stole their land. You cannot by any ones standard do that, you don't tell me that i am a nazi you retard look at facts not the person behind them.

Well, you have to remember, no one said the Palestinians had to leave. They were welcome to stay where they were. But, they started blowing stuff up, and here we are today.

At this point, it doesn't really matter if it's wrong or right. It's happened. However, I do think that they needed a place to call home. Jewish people aren't part of only a religion, they're a race. They've faced persecution everywhere. Not just the holocaust, but in Russia and most other places. We picked that land for them because it was near where the bible said they belonged. They had ties there. They just needed a place to call their own. Personally, I think the Palestinians could've acted a little better and SHARED their land. *gasp!* Sharing, what a concept!!!!

No, America is not being imperialistic. If we were, trust me, a debate wouldn't be needed to figure it out.

i am 15, i wasn't born and i hate the british i am and irish catholic, german descendant of australias most famous bushranger and a republic i say the Commonwelath should be disbanded. i HATE the queen no offence and i believe that China and India will see the rise in australia.

Fels']i am 15, i wasn't born and i hate the british i am and irish catholic, german descendant of australias most famous bushranger and a republic i say the Commonwelath should be disbanded. i HATE the queen no offence and i believe that China and India will see the rise in australia.
Why should it be disbanded?

I'm gonna have to question some of your "facts" here, buddy.

First of all, lots of people have benefited from this war, hell people benefit from all wars, wars our good for our economy, they make money, how do you think we got out of the great depression, so there goes anything else you were gonna say with that.

And also, you have no idea if he lied, he could have recieved false intel, or the iraqis moved their weapons out of the country into another arab country, or little green men from mars came down, or he did lie. My point is, you have no idea. And you, nor I will probably EVER have any idea.

Also, on your third fact, how the hell do you know we wouldnt be there if there was no oil there, and what kind of dictionary did you look like for the word fact. This is not a fact at all, its your opinion...lol....:rolleyes: :p

For the whole Bin Lades relatives thing, from what I understand this is something that Moore put in Farenheit 911 and either lied about, or changed the story to his likings, or invented it. I have not seen any evidence aside from his "movie" that talks about this otherwise.

And lastly, what are you assuming with Osama Bin Ladens family? That Bush was in on the whole 911 thing? That Bush supports Osama? Wtf are you playing at?

Oh and by the way, the whole idiot thing and attacking noobs I learned from Cheney during the 2004 vice presidential debates. He ate Edwards for lunch, mwahahah


Ok, this dude is probably THE BIGGEST douche bag in the history of douche bags. He claims that no one has facts, but rather opinions. WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOUR STUPID ASS COMMENTS ARE!!! With that in mind lets look at his "informed" opinions on this subject. First he claims that a lot of people are benefiting from this war. Ok, he just proved everyones point that the US has alterior motives other than democracy and WMD's when it comes to Iraq. So he'll probably write back saying that thats not a bad thing. Ok, fine, making a profit is not a bad thing but invading countries and killing tens of thousands of people automatically makes it a bad thing. This war is an empirical example of what capitalism does and how it adversely affects humankind. In fact Ayn Rand a starch conservative has talked about how "capitalism is the only moral system, because every other one deprives man of his rights and liberties." This sort of argument that many capitalists and conservatives is contradictory. Capitalism ultimately leads to the taking away of others rights in order to increase profits or meet the bottomline. Therefore capitalism in its truest form cannot possibly be the most moral system. Now that I'm done on my capitalism rant, i would like to clarify that i don't think that the only alternative is marxism or communism; however i do feel that capitalism is in the same league as both. Anyways, his second point. He says that there is no way of knowing whether Bush knowingly lied about the WMDs , well ok, but he is also not the most intelligent person. But the facts are that the Bush Admin. has pushed for the invasion of Iraq for years. One hard fact is that of the Downing Street memos which were passed to Tony Blair and his admin. which said that Bush and his peeps were preparing a war against Iraq and that they needed any evidence they (the British) had in order to sell this invasion to the US public and to the UN. Another hard fact is that top members of the Bush Admin. have been publishing and writing about how the US needs to invade Iraq for many years. The Project for a New American Century is an organization aimed at promoting the hardline policies that we see today. The organization is compromised of many high profile Bush Cabinet members including Cheney and Rumsfeld. Now this fool (the sheepfucker..I mean sheepfarmer or the dude who i'm quoting) probably is going to say "So what?" Well here is why this is important, Einstein. You see, if Bush and top government officials are promoting the Iraq invasion for years and then they finally get up to a position of power in which they can, they are going to fuckin do you what they want! So, if these war mongers wanted the war so badly (say for helping the military industrial complex (which they have strong connections) or maybe they want to utilize the oil?) they're gonna find a fuckin way which doesn't make theories of conspiracies too far-fetched. So since the rest of your last post was pretty much nonsense and your own opinion on michael moore i think i'll just leave it at that. I think i pretty much proved my point AND owned your dumbass. So moral of the story kids, you can make outlandish claims, but don't be a douche bag and use profanity as a last ditch effort because you are too stupid to articulate an opposing viewpoint. Oh ya and also Cheney is a fu:headbang: ckin robot, there is no way that his non existent charisma beat John Edwards. But i'll give that Cheney is an intelligent guy, evil, but intelligent.

Peace

NO actually it was a very popular idealism in america, with the movie the Great dictator charlie chaplin the president himself said no matter what the film must be shown. That film was about jew perscution and america believe in the idea of the jews financial world concept.

I don't want to seem cruel, but Israel has absolutely no right to exist. At all. I'm all for Jewish people, but the Allies didn't have to steal land from Palestine just to kiss their ass. Maybe I don't really know the history of it, if anyone wants to correct me?

I don't know much of the history either. The way I see it, both sides have a claim to be there, I don't know how good a claim. Obviously it'd be good if they could just get along as one country, 'Palestisrael', but since that doesn't look likely I don't see what they can do.

However, I would like to take both the Israeli and Palestinian leaders to a little room, bang their heads together really hard, and shout, "do you know how STUPID you look to everyone? GET IT SORTED OUT, YOU FOOLS!" It'd help my feelings, anyway ;) .

ok the commonwealth is bad because indepence is what all colonies must eventually achieve and so long as their is a commonwealth the british are imperial masters, in australia one of our great prime ministers was thrown out not by the people or government but by the queens representive

Well, you have to remember, no one said the Palestinians had to leave. They were welcome to stay where they were. But, they started blowing stuff up, and here we are today.

At this point, it doesn't really matter if it's wrong or right. It's happened. However, I do think that they needed a place to call home. Jewish people aren't part of only a religion, they're a race. They've faced persecution everywhere. Not just the holocaust, but in Russia and most other places. We picked that land for them because it was near where the bible said they belonged. They had ties there. They just needed a place to call their own. Personally, I think the Palestinians could've acted a little better and SHARED their land. *gasp!* Sharing, what a concept!!!!

No, America is not being imperialistic. If we were, trust me, a debate wouldn't be needed to figure it out.

I completely disagree with you. Imperalism is generally very, very subtle in this day in age, as has been pointed out in other posts. Also, how would you the place where you live to be sectioned off to Muslims and named Palestine? Bonus points if where you live is also generally the most religious place in the world for both your religion and theirs. I don't think that would be so great, eh? The muslims also had ties there, yet we pretty much kicked them off their land. Sure, they coulda stayed, but Jews <i>are</i> a race, and generally not very accepting/tolerant to other cultures. Stereotypes yes, but I'm all for stereotypes too.

Well, you have to remember, no one said the Palestinians had to leave. They were welcome to stay where they were. But, they started blowing stuff up, and here we are today.

At this point, it doesn't really matter if it's wrong or right. It's happened. However, I do think that they needed a place to call home. Jewish people aren't part of only a religion, they're a race. They've faced persecution everywhere. Not just the holocaust, but in Russia and most other places. We picked that land for them because it was near where the bible said they belonged. They had ties there. They just needed a place to call their own. Personally, I think the Palestinians could've acted a little better and SHARED their land. *gasp!* Sharing, what a concept!!!!

No, America is not being imperialistic. If we were, trust me, a debate wouldn't be needed to figure it out.

Jews are not a race.

I am Jewish. My family comes from Prussia, Austria, and Russia.

I have light blonde hair (used to be white blonde) green eyes, long face, and stand 6'3, I used to be pale before I lived in South Florida...lol.

Another kid I know whos Jewish is about 5"2, dark black hair, round face, dark brown eyes, tannish skin (naturally) and has background from Hungary.

Now there are also Black Jews in Ethiopia that are Africans. I dont have to describe their characteristics you know what Africans look like.

So how can you say we are a race????

Ok, this dude is probably THE BIGGEST douche bag in the history of douche bags. He claims that no one has facts, but rather opinions. WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOUR STUPID ASS COMMENTS ARE!!! With that in mind lets look at his "informed" opinions on this subject. First he claims that a lot of people are benefiting from this war. Ok, he just proved everyones point that the US has alterior motives other than democracy and WMD's when it comes to Iraq. So he'll probably write back saying that thats not a bad thing. Ok, fine, making a profit is not a bad thing but invading countries and killing tens of thousands of people automatically makes it a bad thing. This war is an empirical example of what capitalism does and how it adversely affects humankind. In fact Ayn Rand a starch conservative has talked about how "capitalism is the only moral system, because every other one deprives man of his rights and liberties." This sort of argument that many capitalists and conservatives is contradictory. Capitalism ultimately leads to the taking away of others rights in order to increase profits or meet the bottomline. Therefore capitalism in its truest form cannot possibly be the most moral system. Now that I'm done on my capitalism rant, i would like to clarify that i don't think that the only alternative is marxism or communism; however i do feel that capitalism is in the same league as both. Anyways, his second point. He says that there is no way of knowing whether Bush knowingly lied about the WMDs , well ok, but he is also not the most intelligent person. But the facts are that the Bush Admin. has pushed for the invasion of Iraq for years. One hard fact is that of the Downing Street memos which were passed to Tony Blair and his admin. which said that Bush and his peeps were preparing a war against Iraq and that they needed any evidence they (the British) had in order to sell this invasion to the US public and to the UN. Another hard fact is that top members of the Bush Admin. have been publishing and writing about how the US needs to invade Iraq for many years. The Project for a New American Century is an organization aimed at promoting the hardline policies that we see today. The organization is compromised of many high profile Bush Cabinet members including Cheney and Rumsfeld. Now this fool (the sheepfucker..I mean sheepfarmer or the dude who i'm quoting) probably is going to say "So what?" Well here is why this is important, Einstein. You see, if Bush and top government officials are promoting the Iraq invasion for years and then they finally get up to a position of power in which they can, they are going to fuckin do you what they want! So, if these war mongers wanted the war so badly (say for helping the military industrial complex (which they have strong connections) or maybe they want to utilize the oil?) they're gonna find a fuckin way which doesn't make theories of conspiracies too far-fetched. So since the rest of your last post was pretty much nonsense and your own opinion on michael moore i think i'll just leave it at that. I think i pretty much proved my point AND owned your dumbass. So moral of the story kids, you can make outlandish claims, but don't be a douche bag and use profanity as a last ditch effort because you are too stupid to articulate an opposing viewpoint. Oh ya and also Cheney is a fu:headbang: ckin robot, there is no way that his non existent charisma beat John Edwards. But i'll give that Cheney is an intelligent guy, evil, but intelligent.

Peace

Didnt even read it, just looked at the first line and knew you were a moron. I never said what I said were facts, I was just saying what he said WERE NOT facts, idiot.

Fels']ok the commonwealth is bad because indepence is what all colonies must eventually achieve and so long as their is a commonwealth the british are imperial masters, in australia one of our great prime ministers was thrown out not by the people or government but by the queens representive
Seeing as Britain created the nation, I see no reason why it should relinquish control.

Ok, this dude is probably THE BIGGEST douche bag in the history of douche bags. He claims that no one has facts, but rather opinions. WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOUR STUPID ASS COMMENTS ARE!!!

This is really not the best way to start your carrer. Flamming people like this does nothing but bring trouble.

Jews are not a race.

I am Jewish. My family comes from Prussia, Austria, and Russia.

I have light blonde hair (used to be white blonde) green eyes, long face, and stand 6'3, I used to be pale before I lived in South Florida...lol.

Another kid I know whos Jewish is about 5"2, dark black hair, round face, dark brown eyes, tannish skin (naturally) and has background from Hungary.

Now there are also Black Jews in Ethiopia that are Africans. I dont have to describe their characteristics you know what Africans look like.

So how can you say we are a race????
Aren't hebrews the race, Jews the faith?

Jews are not a race.

I am Jewish. My family comes from Prussia, Austria, and Russia.

I have light blonde hair (used to be white blonde) green eyes, long face, and stand 6'3, I used to be pale before I lived in South Florida...lol.

Another kid I know whos Jewish is about 5"2, dark black hair, round face, dark brown eyes, tannish skin (naturally) and has background from Hungary.

Now there are also Black Jews in Ethiopia that are Africans. I dont have to describe their characteristics you know what Africans look like.

So how can you say we are a race????

Excuse me. I meant the particular branch of Judaism that resides in that area, the Hebrews. Thank you for catching that.

Ok, this dude is probably THE BIGGEST douche bag in the history of douche bags. He claims that no one has facts, but rather opinions. WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOUR STUPID ASS COMMENTS ARE!!! With that in mind lets look at his "informed" opinions on this subject. First he claims that a lot of people are benefiting from this war. Ok, he just proved everyones point that the US has alterior motives other than democracy and WMD's when it comes to Iraq. So he'll probably write back saying that thats not a bad thing. Ok, fine, making a profit is not a bad thing but invading countries and killing tens of thousands of people automatically makes it a bad thing. This war is an empirical example of what capitalism does and how it adversely affects humankind. In fact Ayn Rand a starch conservative has talked about how "capitalism is the only moral system, because every other one deprives man of his rights and liberties." This sort of argument that many capitalists and conservatives is contradictory. Capitalism ultimately leads to the taking away of others rights in order to increase profits or meet the bottomline. Therefore capitalism in its truest form cannot possibly be the most moral system. Now that I'm done on my capitalism rant, i would like to clarify that i don't think that the only alternative is marxism or communism; however i do feel that capitalism is in the same league as both. Anyways, his second point. He says that there is no way of knowing whether Bush knowingly lied about the WMDs , well ok, but he is also not the most intelligent person. But the facts are that the Bush Admin. has pushed for the invasion of Iraq for years. One hard fact is that of the Downing Street memos which were passed to Tony Blair and his admin. which said that Bush and his peeps were preparing a war against Iraq and that they needed any evidence they (the British) had in order to sell this invasion to the US public and to the UN. Another hard fact is that top members of the Bush Admin. have been publishing and writing about how the US needs to invade Iraq for many years. The Project for a New American Century is an organization aimed at promoting the hardline policies that we see today. The organization is compromised of many high profile Bush Cabinet members including Cheney and Rumsfeld. Now this fool (the sheepfucker..I mean sheepfarmer or the dude who i'm quoting) probably is going to say "So what?" Well here is why this is important, Einstein. You see, if Bush and top government officials are promoting the Iraq invasion for years and then they finally get up to a position of power in which they can, they are going to fuckin do you what they want! So, if these war mongers wanted the war so badly (say for helping the military industrial complex (which they have strong connections) or maybe they want to utilize the oil?) they're gonna find a fuckin way which doesn't make theories of conspiracies too far-fetched. So since the rest of your last post was pretty much nonsense and your own opinion on michael moore i think i'll just leave it at that. I think i pretty much proved my point AND owned your dumbass. So moral of the story kids, you can make outlandish claims, but don't be a douche bag and use profanity as a last ditch effort because you are too stupid to articulate an opposing viewpoint. Oh ya and also Cheney is a fu:headbang: ckin robot, there is no way that his non existent charisma beat John Edwards. But i'll give that Cheney is an intelligent guy, evil, but intelligent.

Peace


SUPERB, sir! I salute you! :D
Let's see if he replies...

Britain, colonized australia but it was created by the convicts the ones abused by the british we want it back.

The jews are a race and culture that is a lie, race is a social not biological concept so you are a race and i go to a school which is the heartland of jews in australia they argee with me.

Fels']Britain, colonized australia but it was created by the convicts the ones abused by the british we want it back.

The jews are a race and culture that is a lie, race is a social not biological concept so you are a race and i go to a school which is the heartland of jews in australia they argee with me.
You want it back? Britons demanding Australia back from Britain. Umm, no. Sorry. Convicts, or not, its nationals descended from Britain and built the nation in Britain's name.

Aren't hebrews the race, Jews the faith?

SOMEBODY SEES THE LIGHT!!!!!!

I love you man.

The Hebrews were the middle easterns that adopted Judaism. They are still in our world today and are called Sephardic Jews though they are a very small minority now a days. Most Jews now a days are European Jews, whether that be Northern Euro, Southern, Eastern, or Western....

tongue tied

I completely disagree with you. Imperalism is generally very, very subtle in this day in age, as has been pointed out in other posts. Also, how would you the place where you live to be sectioned off to Muslims and named Palestine? Bonus points if where you live is also generally the most religious place in the world for both your religion and theirs. I don't think that would be so great, eh? The muslims also had ties there, yet we pretty much kicked them off their land. Sure, they coulda stayed, but Jews <i>are</i> a race, and generally not very accepting/tolerant to other cultures. Stereotypes yes, but I'm all for stereotypes too.

Well, I was brought up in a tolerant family, so I wouldn't mind, as long as the motives were in the right place. If it were solely for economic gain, there'd be a problem. But if there were reasonable reasons, such as in Israel, then sure. (However, due to my highly patriotic nature, I'd move back into US territory, but I wouldn't mind having to do so) ((Actually, I'd move cause there's a thunderstorm in the middle of winter, and I just wanna get outta here))

Excuse me. I meant the particular branch of Judaism that resides in that area, the Hebrews. Thank you for catching that.

Yeah well in reality most of the Jews in Israel NOW A DAYS are Euros or Americans. the two biggest groups are American immigrants and Russian immigrants...and a bunch of immigrants from other Euro countires. The hebrew race kinda died out a long time ago...there arnt that many left, they are called sephardic and are a minority in Judaism.

Jews are racist people, i say this because you excluded others from your faith superior to us in some way, racist and i am a tolerant too i am really tolerant but jews are racist

Yeah well in reality most of the Jews in Israel NOW A DAYS are Euros or Americans. the two biggest groups are American immigrants and Russian immigrants...and a bunch of immigrants from other Euro countires. The hebrew race kinda died out a long time ago...there arnt that many left, they are called sephardic and are a minority in Judaism.

Hmmm....good point. But then again, some one above pointed out that race is more defined by culture. If that's correct, than what I originally said still works.

Yeah well in reality most of the Jews in Israel NOW A DAYS are Euros or Americans. the two biggest groups are American immigrants and Russian immigrants...and a bunch of immigrants from other Euro countires. The hebrew race kinda died out a long time ago...there arnt that many left, they are called sephardic and are a minority in Judaism.
So what would most people in Israel be?

Fels']Britain, colonized australia but it was created by the convicts the ones abused by the british we want it back.

The jews are a race and culture that is a lie, race is a social not biological concept so you are a race and i go to a school which is the heartland of jews in australia they argee with me.

Its very much biological. Its in our DNA and genetic make up. Its not just a product of socialogy.

Jews are not a race. We are followers of a religion.

Fels']Jews are racist people, i say this because you excluded others from your faith superior to us in some way, racist and i am a tolerant too i am really tolerant but jews are racist

That's a pretty heavy generalization.

What do you think?

Please try to keep posts informed and dont just say "omg bush suxx0rz"

As for me, I think it is. For some strange reason, I think the Iraqi war is all about the oil-- purely economic with no regard for the iraqi welfare. I think Bush just needed a cover to get oil, and Saddam was right there. He tries to make it sound like the US is doing good, but since things kind of backfired (aka no WMD's) he has had to stay in Iraq to do somthing instead of just getting in, getting the oil, and getting out like he should have if that was just what he was doing. No real need to have been in there all this time. Also, one of the charecteristics of Imperialism is racism, and while it isnt blatently obvious, I think the whole "It's our duty as americans to help less fortunate countries" is a nice way of saying Americans are better than everyone else-- a better race, if you will, so it's our duty to help those poor pther countries who don't know better.

Oh well, thats my two cents! :D

No

And even if an alterior motive was oil profit (which I highly doubt... it's really helped us a lot...), the fact is that taking down Saddam and giving Iraqis the freedom to choose their own leaders was a good deed.

oh, and we didn't "get the oil"... or have you seen oil tankers going from Iraq to the US?

So what would most people in Israel be?

American or Russian immigrants, those are the biggest groups of immigrants.

I was just there over Christmas break. Theres a huge Russian influence there, just ask the guy selling the vodka, lol.

The first wave was Jewish survivors of WWII, the second wave was Jews moving there to defend Israel from the A-rabs when they declared war on Israel, and the third wave was when the Soviet Union broke up...that wave is still going on. But during all these waves Jewish immigration from America to Israel was continuing in a semi steady wave.

They exlcude from others i am a friend to many jews my neighbour is a jew but they are racist more so then any other culture in Oz we accept all people but the jewish community here does not accept us and ours,

Evidence of racism the leading jewish preist here sad that to those jews who marry outside of judaism are finishing hilters works because they were killing the race, tell me that is exlcusion right.

The irish have been just as abused so i am not a radicial but in oz the orthodox jew are racist

Hmmm....good point. But then again, some one above pointed out that race is more defined by culture. If that's correct, than what I originally said still works.

Race is your race..it has nothing to do with culture. Culture has to do with ethnic groups like Germans and Dutch and Scandanavians and all that, whom are different culturally, but racially Germans and Dutch and Scandanavians are the same.

Race is your race..it has nothing to do with culture. Culture has to do with ethnic groups like Germans and Dutch and Scandanavians and all that, whom are different culturally, but racially Germans and Dutch and Scandanavians are the same.
Yep, germanic origin.

Race is a man made thing so to those who say it is not, we all come from africa, if you are anative american asia, etc

Fels']They exlcude from others i am a friend to many jews my neighbour is a jew but they are racist more so then any other culture in Oz we accept all people but the jewish community here does not accept us and ours,

Evidence of racism the leading jewish preist here sad that to those jews who marry outside of judaism are finishing hilters works because they were killing the race, tell me that is exlcusion right.

The irish have been just as abused so i am not a radicial but in oz the orthodox jew are racist

First of all...it has nothing to do with being racist...the Orthodox Jews just dont want people joining Judaism unless they are serious about it...which makes perfect sense. The non Orthdox Jews, like me, could care less. Youv got it all wrong and are blowing it way out of proportion.

Who is to say that imperialism is even wrong?
i guess that's something an individual must decide.
it's not a black and white issue

Fels']Race is a man made thing so to those who say it is not, we all come from africa, if you are anative american asia, etc
That is a gross over-simplification and a denial of evolutionary traits we gained over thousands of years.

Yep, germanic origin.

That was for you...with the Dutch, lol. Afrikaan if I'm not mistaken is how you guys say it, right.

Race is your race..it has nothing to do with culture. Culture has to do with ethnic groups like Germans and Dutch and Scandanavians and all that, whom are different culturally, but racially Germans and Dutch and Scandanavians are the same.

All right. I'll go with that, makes sense to me.

Finishing hitlers work does not talk about commitement to religion now does it sorry for being rude but i was hurt by that i was rasied that all are equal no matter what and him saying that hurt really bad.

All right. I'll go with that, makes sense to me.

Glad I could help. :)

That was for you...with the Dutch, lol. Afrikaan if I'm not mistaken is how you guys say it, right.
Afrikaans yeah...I have a little british and greek blood too, so essentially I am more or less WASP :p

Fels']Finishing hitlers work does not talk about commitement to religion now does it sorry for being rude but i was hurt by that i was rasied that all are equal no matter what and him saying that hurt really bad.
You really have to toughen up a little and face reality.

Afrikaans yeah...I have a little british and greek blood too, so essentially I am more or less WASP :p

haha....well I am definalty not wasp...German blood, Jewish religion...nothing British or protestant about me lol.

haha....well I am definalty not wasp...German blood, Jewish religion...nothing British or protestant about me lol.
Not Protestant either myself...but my family mostly is. :p You're WSJ I guess, White saxon jew :p

Fels']Finishing hitlers work does not talk about commitement to religion now does it sorry for being rude but i was hurt by that i was rasied that all are equal no matter what and him saying that hurt really bad.

Dude...go get a farm, havest some balls and a brain, and if youd like me and Europa can come over a "toughen you up" a little.

i am young i will toughen up.

Not Protestant either myself...but my family mostly is. :p You're WSJ I guess, White saxon jew :p

WSJ, got a nice ring to it :rolleyes: lol :p Are you Catholic, then?

Fels']i am young i will toughen up.

Good...trust me...the stuff im telling you is not lies, its the truth.

There is no Jewish plot, Jews are not racist, though many, way too many for my liking are flaming liberals, and the only reason religious Jews dont want other people joining Judaism, is because they only want people who are serious about it to do it.

WSJ, got a nice ring to it :rolleyes: lol :p Are you Catholic, then?
More or less. I have my own views on Christianity, even some pagan/agnostic ideas, but yeah mostly Catholic.

The Atlantian islands you are the type of guy that has no life and if one does exist is then it is worthless you are the people in this world that are a disgrace i am bored in sydney with bad weather we joined at school you really should go get a life in the real world instead of paying out a kid, low life scum.

Fels']Jews are racist people, i say this because you excluded others from your faith superior to us in some way, racist and i am a tolerant too i am really tolerant but jews are racist

SHUT YOUR MOUTH KID. DON'T YOU SPOUT YOUR RACIST JUNK HERE. IF YOU WERE REALLY TOLERANT YOU WOULDN'T BE SAYING ANY OF THAT TRASH. HOW DARE YOU.

i used to be like you kid. thought i knew everything. though i was right, all the time. well i wasn't, and neither are you. GROW UP.

I HATE RACISM. IF YOU'RE RACIST GET OUT.

More or less. I have my own views on Christianity, even some pagan/agnostic ideas, but yeah mostly Catholic.

Yeah...well my best friends are Catholic and they are good people...nice conservative religion, conservative pope, much better than the people out in my home state (California) that represent Judaism....flaming liberal atheist Jews...they are the ones pushing for all the left wing legistlation out there....gives Jews a bad name.

SHUT YOUR MOUTH KID. DON'T YOU SPOUT YOUR RACIST JUNK HERE. IF YOU WERE REALLY TOLERANT YOU WOULDN'T BE SAYING ANY OF THAT TRASH. HOW DARE YOU.

i used to be like you kid. thought i knew everything. though i was right, all the time. well i wasn't, and neither are you. GROW UP.

I HATE RACISM. IF YOU'RE RACIST GET OUT.

Dude..its not that big of a deal..he just doesnt know...so I told him what the deal is.

Relax....and plus...what he was saying wasnt racism...it was just uninformed garbage that would at most be a little bit anti semetic...but who cares...no use getting worked up over it....live and let live.

That is the problem we can't speak about why not, why can't we speak about it, it is not taboo and must be dicussed so get over yourself and by they way i don't care about your shitty life go away back to whatever hole you came from i was voicing my opininon and i was wrong and The Atlantian islands prved that to me.

Fels']The Atlantian islands you are the type of guy that has no life and if one does exist is then it is worthless you are the people in this world that are a disgrace i am bored in sydney with bad weather we joined at school you really should go get a life in the real world instead of paying out a kid, low life scum.

Huh....well I'm not really sure what to make of all that. But if it was telling me to get a life, well its 8 34 on a tuesday night...and I have homework...lol...sorry if im not out hitting the beach. Idiot....lol.

Fels']That is the problem we can't speak about why not, why can't we speak about it, it is not taboo and must be dicussed so get over yourself and by they way i don't care about your shitty life go away back to whatever hole you came from i was voicing my opininon and i was wrong and The Atlantian islands prved that to me.

I gotta ask, are you bipolar?

SHUT YOUR MOUTH KID. DON'T YOU SPOUT YOUR RACIST JUNK HERE. IF YOU WERE REALLY TOLERANT YOU WOULDN'T BE SAYING ANY OF THAT TRASH. HOW DARE YOU.

i used to be like you kid. thought i knew everything. though i was right, all the time. well i wasn't, and neither are you. GROW UP.

I HATE RACISM. IF YOU'RE RACIST GET OUT.
And you are going to force him out? :rolleyes:

Dude..its not that big of a deal..he just doesnt know...so I told him what the deal is.

Relax....and plus...what he was saying wasnt racism...it was just uninformed garbage that would at most be a little bit anti semetic...but who cares...no use getting worked up over it....live and let live.

yeah... there was no use in getting worked up when hitler starting talking about the jews either... you start saying junk, and eventually you start beleiving it yourself, beleive me, i know.

don't make anything of it i am bipolar and have narcosist tenderies plus dislexyia

First of all...it has nothing to do with being racist...the Orthodox Jews just dont want people joining Judaism unless they are serious about it...which makes perfect sense. The non Orthdox Jews, like me, could care less. Youv got it all wrong and are blowing it way out of proportion.

I live in South Florida (like you), and just today I heard a friend of mine remark "My rabbi was ranting about how I shouldn't marry out of Judaism because we have to preserve our race!" She goes to a non-orthodox temple, too. I also have a lot of Jewish friends, being in South Florida and such, and know from experience that most Jews are generally very exclusive. I really don't think he's blowing it out of proportion that much.

And you are going to force him out? :rolleyes:

Everyone is so damn sensitive...why dont they just relax...its just a dumb little kid...who cares....I'm Jewish...I'm not offended...it wasnt even racism....jesus, people need to chilll

Not being a smartass, but:

Omg GWBush ish teh sux0r unt ish teh n00bish prez :D

now that I got THAT out of my system, political views!:

Our government is corrupt
-----
We should recreate our form of government, we are the only gov't that has lasted more than 200 years without changing, it is NOT working.
-----
I AM NOT A TERRORIST FOR HAVING SUCH POLITCAL VIEWS, QUIT SPYING ON ME J00 PUNK a$$ n00bs!

For governmental references, this is a terrorist: :mp5: or this :sniper:

Can I get a amennnn----a?!?!

: raises his hand high :

oh...wait....im sorry, this thread is about imperialism....sure, the US gov't can be imperialist at times, and they can get away with it too.... using certain excuses like philanthropy....or...better known as claiming to know what is best for mankind. or my personal favorite...vengance against terrorism, but the US, the only rule is no rules.

(Don't think I am some criticizing canadian, or european, I am from the US)

Now, can I get an AMEN!?!?!!

yeah... there was no use in getting worked up when hitler starting talking about the jews either... you start saying junk, and eventually you start beleiving it yourself, beleive me, i know.

Only weak minds do.

I read Mein Kampf and I am not a Nazi, nor have I fallen to any Nazi propaganda.

Everyone is so damn sensitive...why dont they just relax...its just a dumb little kid...who cares....I'm Jewish...I'm not offended...it wasnt even racism....jesus, people need to chilll
Agreed. I just found it humorous that someone would ordain themselves as the watchguard of the forums, as the person who says what goes or not. Any opinion is entitled to being expressed, racist or not. That doesn't mean its going to go without comment.

I live in South Florida (like you), and just today I heard a friend of mine remark "My rabbi was ranting about how I shouldn't marry out of Judaism because we have to preserve our race!" She goes to a non-orthodox temple, too. I also have a lot of Jewish friends, being in South Florida and such, and know from experience that most Jews are generally very exclusive. I really don't think he's blowing it out of proportion that much.

Key word..Rabbi...it doesnt matter if its a non orthodox temple, the guys obviously religious if hes a rabbi, and those are the religious Jews views...that want to keep Judaism to the people who will actually practice it.

Have you ever heard a non religious Jew say that?

Yeah...well my best friends are Catholic and they are good people...nice conservative religion, conservative pope, much better than the people out in my home state (California) that represent Judaism....flaming liberal atheist Jews...they are the ones pushing for all the left wing legistlation out there....gives Jews a bad name.
Its a little stagnant in some ways though. I like most of its conservative elements (save views on women and gay people...that could do with some change), but in some ways its beginning to die. Its not adapting to modern days. I would hate for it to lose its traditions, and become some commercial entity, yet it needs to figure out some way to have the best of both worlds; a high following and keeping its traditions.

Agreed. I just found it humorous that someone would ordain themselves as the watchguard of the forums, as the person who says what goes or not. Any opinion is entitled to being expressed, racist or not. That doesn't mean its going to go without comment.

Exactly...its like that law you guys have in Central/Northern Europe where you cant deny the holocaust...kinda stupid if you ask me. In America, you can deny the holocaust, then once you do, your deemed an outcast from soceity, a neo nazi, and an idiot, all without limiting your freedom of speech :p

Its a little stagnant in some ways though. I like most of its conservative elements (save views on women and gay people...that could do with some change), but in some ways its beginning to die. Its not adapting to modern days. I would hate for it to lose its traditions, and become some commercial entity, yet it needs to figure out some way to have the best of both worlds; a high following and keeping its traditions.

I know exactly what you mean...and I actually read a book on just that...even though it was a fiction story..its called Angels and Demons by Dan Brown, its the prequel to the Da Vinci Code and its even better.

I know exactly what you mean...and I actually read a book on just that...even though it was a fiction story..its called Angels and Demons by Dan Brown, its the prequel to the Da Vinci Code and its even better.
Agreed. Read both as well. They are good. They highlight both its traditions and its faults. It would be a shame for those traditions to die. Sort of like with Europe; it would be a shame for its cultures to die.

YES! Most of the Jews I know aren't that religious and still refer to themselves as Jewish and are not expecting to marry out of their religion! This is why I think of Judaism as a race, most aren't into actually practicing the religon, they are just into it because that's the way they feel they were born. Atheist jew is pretty redundant, in my opinion. Maybe I don't know about the true intricacies of Jewish culture, but as an outsider, that's how I see it.

Just to make clear i am not dumb and i work in parliament house so one i know polictics and am in that enviroment i am also a member of the young liberals at the UNSW a uni whre i am the youngest member, i am 15/16 more over 16. so please don't call me dumb i prefer special or disabled.

Exactly...its like that law you guys have in Central/Northern Europe where you cant deny the holocaust...kinda stupid if you ask me. In America, you can deny the holocaust, then once you do, your deemed an outcast from soceity, a neo nazi, and an idiot, all without limiting your freedom of speech :p
Exactly, with the free market exchange of ideas.

Fels']Just to make clear i am not dumb and i work in parliament house so one i know polictics and am in that enviroment i am also a member of the young liberals at the UNSW a uni whre i am the youngest member, i am 15/16 more over 16. so please don't call me dumb i prefer special or disabled.
You are serious? :confused:

yes

YES! Most of the Jews I know aren't that religious and still refer to themselves as Jewish and are not expecting to marry out of their religion! This is why I think of Judaism as a race, most aren't into actually practicing the religon, they are just into it because that's the way they feel they were born. Atheist jew is pretty redundant, in my opinion. Maybe I don't know about the true intricacies of Jewish culture, but as an outsider, that's how I see it.

Thats because maybe their parents are religious and tell their child that from an early age.

Also, when you say most arnt into actually practicing the religion, your just stating your opinion...unless you have some statistics.

Also, an Atheist Jew is not redundant at all, in my opinon.

If your parents are Catholic but your not very religious, your still catholic, or atleast born a catholic......

Why would i not be serious
:confused:

Fels']yes
So you would actually rather be called special or disabled, even if neither of these are true, as euphemisms for dumb? Are you brainwashed by PC or something?

Well, in my opinion, it's time the world drafted up a Monroe Doctrine of sorts against the United States.

You are serious? :confused:

Lol..I'm afraid to say anything more about him, im begining to think hes retarded...

How does he not even know his own age?

Also...I agree about European culture and I too think the Catholic church needs to do something to attract more church goers...its basically dying and and it needs to do something to bring itself back, that, hopefully, will not be succumbing to liberalism.

Doctors told my parent i would never read, i could not even write so copyed during anything the person next to me and drew it like art, i was reading after training to read year six which was remarkable so i am special.

Fels']Just to make clear i am not dumb and i work in parliament house so one i know polictics and am in that enviroment i am also a member of the young liberals at the UNSW a uni whre i am the youngest member, i am 15/16 more over 16. so please don't call me dumb i prefer special or disabled.

Jesus, no wonder Englands going to hell.


Edit: Just kidding.

Australia

Lol..I'm afraid to say anything more about him, im begining to think hes retarded...

How does he not even know his own age?

Also...I agree about European culture and I too think the Catholic church needs to do something to attract more church goers...its basically dying and and it needs to do something to bring itself back, that, hopefully, will not be succumbing to liberalism.
Same here :confused:

I think it will find a way, in time. It needs to lighten up its stance on women and gay people, that would boost its following greatly. I am afraid it'll instead take up this new "corporate church" notion, and sell itself out. Become a business instead of a Church.

This argument is stupid, and unless either of us can add talking points, it shouldn't be continued. From what I see, as an (unbiased?) atheist living in a pretty large Jewish community, I think it is very fair to call Judaism a race.

Same here :confused:

I think it will find a way, in time. It needs to lighten up its stance on women and gay people, that would boost its following greatly. I am afraid it'll instead take up this new "corporate church" notion, and sell itself out. Become a business instead of a Church.

Well I'm not really sure what its stances are on women now a days....but for gays I know their stance and I mean....I can understand why you wouldnt like that stance, but it is in the bible so they do have a reason they are like that.

It is cruel to call someone a retard specially when they have those issues and i am serious not bullshit i am confused about my age because i am turning 16 in 2 and half months

This argument is stupid, and unless either of us can add talking points, it shouldn't be continued. From what I see, as an (unbiased?) atheist living in a pretty large Jewish community, I think it is very fair to call Judaism a race.

You can call it whatever you want. But I am just telling you we are not a race. There are black Jews, Indian Jews, Arab Jews, White Jews.....its just not a race man.

Why doesn't my church let gays in besides the bible we know that one like why.

Fels']It is cruel to call someone a retard specially when they have those issues and i am serious not bullshit i am confused about my age because i am turning 16 in 2 and half months

Then you are 15.

Thats because maybe their parents are religious and tell their child that from an early age.

Also, when you say most arnt into actually practicing the religion, your just stating your opinion...unless you have some statistics.

Also, an Atheist Jew is not redundant at all, in my opinon.

If your parents are Catholic but your not very religious, your still catholic, or atleast born a catholic......
Depends...if you change religion, or denounce your official one, you're no longer a Catholic really.

Ok then sorry i will say i am 15 but i prefer 16 because it is so close i can touch it.

Depends...if you change religion, or denounce your official one, you're no longer a Catholic really.

Right, and if you convert, or drop Judaism....your no longer a Jew.

What I meant was just if you dont do anything with your religion...you just leave it. Your Catholic but your not practicing. Same with Judiasm, unless you denounce it or convert.

Well I'm not really sure what its stances are on women now a days....but for gays I know their stance and I mean....I can understand why you wouldnt like that stance, but it is in the bible so they do have a reason they are like that.
It uses the Bible as a social policy tool really. All Churches do. Furthermore, its changed its attitude on other ideas, like Papal infallibility. Nothing is carved in stone.

Only weak minds do.

I read Mein Kampf and I am not a Nazi, nor have I fallen to any Nazi propaganda.

so, basically, just because you did not play into racism that means that anyone else who did is "weaker"? great job.

Since when does the color of your skin matter? Race isn't just skin color. Do you honestly think of Judaism as having as much diversity as say, Christianity? Seriously?

You as it says on the back it remains necessary reading for those who seek to understand the Holocaust...... for those who care to safeguard democracy

Since when does the color of your skin matter? Race isn't just skin color. Do you honestly think of Judaism as having as much diversity as say, Christianity? Seriously?

Hah, and to add to that, a couple of friends of mine and I have set out on a quest to find a black jew, but to no avail...

i mean to say Ham-o the book is

so, basically, just because you did not play into racism that means that anyone else who did is "weaker"? great job.

Yeah...if you fall victim to shit like that...then your mind is weak. Yeah I would say thats about right.

I, of course, mean Neo-Nazism not Nazism in Germany in the 1930s, the German people were not weak for accepting Nazism...they wanted an alternative to the Communists that seemed like they were gonna take over Germany, and Germany was in ruins...thus Hitler rode in like a shinning white knight. Little did they know.....

OMG race is socialogy not biology it does not matter what the colour of your skin is, think of it this way we are all mongrels or muts

Yeah...if you fall victim to shit like that...then your mind is weak. Yeah I would say thats about right.

I, of course, mean Neo-Nazism not Nazism in Germany in the 1930s, the German people were not weak for accepting Nazism...they wanted an alternative to the Communists that seemed like they were gonna take over Germany, and Germany was in ruins...thus Hitler rode in like a shinning white knight. Little did they know.....
Indeed. I guess you meant that you're not prone to any ideas that appear written in "authoritative" books. I'm the same that way. I rarely simply agree with what a book says and always question it.

Fels']OMG race is socialogy not biology it does not matter what the colour of your skin is, think of it this way we are all mongrels or muts
Not really. Race is both sociology (ie the greater subdivision of cultures) and biology (ie racial divisions by colour and racial subdivisions by specific groups within each race).

Hah, and to add to that, a couple of friends of mine and I have set out on a quest to find a black jew, but to no avail...


http://www.palestinefacts.org/images/ethiopian_jews.jpg

There you go, quest ended.

It uses the Bible as a social policy tool really. All Churches do. Furthermore, its changed its attitude on other ideas, like Papal infallibility. Nothing is carved in stone.

Yeah...but its in the bible...homosexuality...its not just a catholic church policy...religious Jews are against it too because its in the bible.

short answer. yes. they yanks are imperialistic

Yeah...but its in the bible...homosexuality...its not just a catholic church policy...religious Jews are against it too because its in the bible.
The Bible has always been subject to editing as a public policy tool, from ancient times.

Indeed. I guess you meant that you're not prone to any ideas that appear written in "authoritative" books. I'm the same that way. I rarely simply agree with what a book says and always question it.

Yeah..Although, Mein Kampf was very interesting....it gave alot of background to WWII and the holocaust. The reasonings behind both of them, etc. It also has reasons for hating the Jews, some real reasons and some made up...but all in all, I suggest anyone with a strong mind read it.

Yeah..Although, Mein Kampf was very interesting....it gave alot of background to WWII and the holocaust. The reasonings behind both of them, etc. It also has reasons for hating the Jews, some real reasons and some made up...but all in all, I suggest anyone with a strong mind read it.
Agreed. Some of the reasons were valid, but a lot of the stuff was fabrications of Hitler's mind. I would read it to see how he thought.

The Bible has always been subject to editing as a public policy tool, from ancient times.

You may be right for Christianity, but not for Judaism....Judaism sticks to the old bible and the old ways so thats why the religious Jews dont like homosexuality. For Christianity I dont know, I doubt thats gonna change...i mean its not like the churchs views on women...its actually in the bible stating that homosexuality is a sin...it kinda is cast in stone...whether you want to beleive it or not is another thing....but i just cant see the church changing over that. You know?

Not really. Race is both sociology (ie the greater subdivision of cultures) and biology (ie racial divisions by colour and racial subdivisions by specific groups within each race).

there ain't no races in any meaningful biological sense.

You may be right for Christianity, but not for Judaism....Judaism sticks to the old bible and the old ways so thats why the religious Jews dont like homosexuality. For Christianity I dont know, I doubt thats gonna change...i mean its not like the churchs views on women...its actually in the bible stating that homosexuality is a sin...it kinda is cast in stone...whether you want to beleive it or not is another thing....but i just cant see the church changing over that. You know?
True, I doubt that the Church would change its view easily on the whole matter. The thing is, in Christianity the New Testament more or less unravels the old one. So people conveniently take Old Testament ideas, and inject them into the NT, for whatever purpose suits them. So yes, I remain Christian, but I am not also gonna fall for whatever editing was done to the Bible.

there ain't no races in any meaningful biological sense.
People's bodies and physiques don't adapt to their environments then?

I don't think the US is imperialist. We don't actually create collonies overseas.

aside from those colonies we have overseas, anyway...

and what do seas have to do with anything? failure to cross oceans never stopped the mongols or the russians.

I, of course, mean Neo-Nazism not Nazism in Germany in the 1930s, the German people were not weak for accepting Nazism...they wanted an alternative to the Communists that seemed like they were gonna take over Germany, and Germany was in ruins...thus Hitler rode in like a shinning white knight. Little did they know.....

ugghhh. . . EM, don't read past this point: you know what i'll say

After the Great Depression, Germany was pushed into a downward spiral by the treaty of Versailles. It was cheaper to put money on your walls than real paper. The Weimar republic was weak. The major manufacturing area, military and civilian (Ruhr valley), was shut down and then heavily policed. Hitler hijacked the national socialist party for his own needs. Hitler promised meat on every table, and delivered. He didn't come out and say, "Hey lets blame Jews" and everyone accepted it. He slipped it under the rug while everyone loved him. There is a difference between nazis and germans.

now that thats done;
. . .It also has reasons for hating the Jews, some real reasons and some made up . . .I suggest anyone with a strong mind read it.

real and made up? mein kampf? why the book exists is for studying a dangerously powerful man.
read it. ok. nothing it explains can't be found in other places.

there ain't no races in any meaningful biological sense.

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=healthNews&storyID=2006-01-20T171854Z_01_N20332650_RTRIDST_0_HEALTH-SMOKING-DC.XML

thats pretty biological if you ask me./

In answer to the original queation, yes. Just ask Jacobo Arbenz, or Salvador Allende. Oh wait, Allende's dead...for some reason

People's bodies and physiques don't adapt to their environments then?

adapt? as in 'get used to breathing at higher altitudes'? happens all the time.

what does that have to do with the existence or non-existence of race?

True, I doubt that the Church would change its view easily on the whole matter. The thing is, in Christianity the New Testament more or less unravels the old one. So people conveniently take Old Testament ideas, and inject them into the NT, for whatever purpose suits them. So yes, I remain Christian, but I am not also gonna fall for whatever editing was done to the Bible.

Right..and I understand that, but my point is that the whole gay thing has nothing to do with christian editing for the new testament...because its in the old testament which is not (to my knowllege) edited and changed...which is the whole point of Judaism.

adapt? as in 'get used to breathing at higher altitudes'? happens all the time.

what does that have to do with the existence or non-existence of race?
Hardly the case. As in getting used to more exposure from the sun by a darkening of the skin, or getting used to higher levels of cold by building greater fat deposits.

Right..and I understand that, but my point is that the whole gay thing has nothing to do with christian editing for the new testament...because its in the old testament which is not (to my knowllege) edited and changed...which is the whole point of Judaism.
Who exactly wrote it in though? The Bible isn't a work of singular creation.

and what do seas have to do with anything? failure to cross oceans never stopped the mongols or the russians.

did i miss the part about mongols invading america?

aside from those colonies we have overseas, anyway...


yeah, other than puerto rico, american samoa, the u.s.v.i., oman, u.a.e, iraq, all of south and central america. . .

ugghhh. . . EM, don't read past this point: you know what i'll say

After the Great Depression, Germany was pushed into a downward spiral by the treaty of Versailles. It was cheaper to put money on your walls than real paper. The Weimar republic was weak. The major manufacturing area, military and civilian (Ruhr valley), was shut down and then heavily policed. Hitler hijacked the national socialist party for his own needs. Hitler promised meat on every table, and delivered. He didn't come out and say, "Hey lets blame Jews" and everyone accepted it. He slipped it under the rug while everyone loved him. There is a difference between nazis and germans.

now that thats done;


real and made up? mein kampf? why the book exists is for studying a dangerously powerful man.
read it. ok. nothing it explains can't be found in other places.

You basically argued for me. Everything you said in your big paragraph I am totally agreeing with, lol. I dont know what your doing...I totally agree with all that. I said they were NOT weak for accepting Nazism....I agree with what you said. Also, some of the reasons Hitler gave for hating Jews were valid reasons although not valid to an extent to kill someone, just valid to dislike someone.

And there is a difference between reading a book about the holocaust and getting into the mind of the man who thought it up (sort of) and his reasons for it.

You basically argued for me. Everything you said in your big paragraph I am totally agreeing with, lol. I dont know what your doing...I totally agree with all that. I said they were NOT weak for accepting Nazism....I agree with what you said. Also, some of the reasons Hitler gave for hating Jews were valid reasons although not valid to an extent to kill someone, just valid to dislike someone.

And there is a difference between reading a book about the holocaust and getting into the mind of the man who thought it up (sort of) and his reasons for it.
He sort of owned himself :p

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=healthNews&storyID=2006-01-20T171854Z_01_N20332650_RTRIDST_0_HEALTH-SMOKING-DC.XML

thats pretty biological if you ask me./

but not very racial. africans are the most genetically diverse group of people on the planet. american blacks are but a small sample of that. and while they form their own genetic population at this point, the existence of genetic differences between populations says nothing about the existence of race.

Who exactly wrote it in though? The Bible isn't a work of singular creation.

Well thats not known....people either beleive that God wrote it, or he put the idea in Moses head and Moses wrote it...or it was written by a group of Jewish high priests...no one knows..thats where faith comes in. But it was written thousands of years ago and hasnt really changed, unlike the new testament which has.

but not very racial. africans are the most genetically diverse group of people on the planet. american blacks are but a small sample of that. and while they form their own genetic population at this point, the existence of genetic differences between populations says nothing about the existence of race.
It does suggest the existence of subraces though, as in divisions of a singular race.

He sort of owned himself :p

I guess, lol.

Well thats not known....people either beleive that God wrote it, or he put the idea in Moses head and Moses wrote it...or it was written by a group of Jewish high priests...no one knows..thats where faith comes in. But it was written thousands of years ago and hasnt really changed, unlike the new testament which has.
Which is why I don't put much faith into the OT. Its far too fickle. In any case, whatever the truth may be (unless its uncovered), the Church is going to stay the way it is, for better or for worse.

Hardly the case. As in getting used to more exposure from the sun by a darkening of the skin, or getting used to higher levels of cold by building greater fat deposits.

what about it? or are you going to claim there are hundreds of races?

what about it? or are you going to claim there are hundreds of races?
Not hundreds, but perhaps dozens. They are groups of individuals that share common biological traits arising from evolution. Don't wanna call them a subrace? Fine, you're choice. That is what it is in the end though.

It does suggest the existence of subraces though, as in divisions of a singular race.

no, it indicates that relatively distinct genetic populations exist. but that isn't exactly news.

no, it indicates that relatively distinct genetic populations exist. but that isn't exactly news.
Different words for the same thing in the end. :rolleyes:

Which is why I don't put much faith into the OT. Its far too fickle. In any case, whatever the truth may be (unless its uncovered), the Church is going to stay the way it is, for better or for worse.

Yeah...well thats where I see the opposite. I put faith in the OT and not the NT, because it the OT was written so long ago and we dont know how it was written, thus I have faith it was, atleast in some way the word of God, and it has not been edited by men, where as Christianity is also the word of God, but I beleive edited by man.

I put more faith in having faith that it was not edited/written by man, I guess is my point.

Yeah...well thats where I see the opposite. I put faith in the OT and not the NT, because it the OT was written so long ago and we dont know how it was written, thus I have faith it was, atleast in some way the word of God, and it has not been edited by men, where as Christianity is also the word of God, but I beleive edited by man.

I put more faith in having faith that it was not edited/written by man, I guess is my point.
Understood. Anyway, lets get back on topic (or as close on topic as we're gonna get :p)

Understood. Anyway, lets get back on topic (or as close on topic as we're gonna get :p)

Lol...back on the topic that has nothing to do with the OT. Got it.:p

Not hundreds, but perhaps dozens. They are groups of individuals that share common biological traits arising from evolution. Don't wanna call them a subrace? Fine, you're choice. That is what it is in the end though.

subrace would be a level under race. we don't have races, therefore we don't have subraces either. we have populations and ethnic groups.

racial 'theories' typically hold that there are between 4 and 6 races - black, white, asian, austronesian, and sometimes bushman and american indian. when we start allowing any of the various genetic difference between people and groups to count as racial distinguishers, we will have something on the order of 6 billion races.

the concept is vacuous. it prioritizes a tiny number of visibile variations and attaches great social significance to them. but we could choose any number of other genetic variations and claim that any number of different races exist, covering all sorts of combinations of people as they are classed into the 'regular' races.

subrace would be a level under race. we don't have races, therefore we don't have subraces either. we have populations and ethnic groups.

Isn't ethnic group essentially a euphemism for race/subrace? (it is called the Human race, so it could well have sub-races)

Isn't ethnic group essentially a euphemism for race/subrace?

no. unless the irish are a race, anyway. and the hadza, the ukranians, the kurds, the canadians, and the yoopers.

no. unless the irish are a race, anyway. and the hadza, the ukranians, the kurds, the canadians, and the yoopers.
Ethnic group as in caucasian, african, afro-american, asian and so on...these are still widely in use.

Ethnic group as in caucasian, african, afro-american, asian and so on...these are still widely in use.

except for african american, those aren't ethnic groups. my examples were ethnic groups (though some of them would divide down even more than i did).

except for african american, those aren't ethnic groups. my examples were ethnic groups (though some of them would divide down even more than i did).
These are also usually called ethnic groups, but I see what you mean (ethnic strictly means national, so it would be a better interpretation really). My point is, aren't such groupings such as caucasian, african, asian, hispanic and so on a euphemistic attempt to divide humans into various racial groupings? Its the same thing in the end. They are, nevertheless, accepted and widely used.

These are also usually called ethnic groups

only by the confused

My point is, aren't such groupings such as caucasian, african, asian, hispanic and so on a euphemistic attempt to divide humans into various racial groupings?

they are explicitly attempts to divide people racially. caucasian, in particular, comes from a very specific racial 'theory' based on a rather strange set of quasi-platonic ideals and a bit of creative biblical literalism. they are also completely meaningless except in a social context.

they are explicitly attempts to divide people racially. caucasian, in particular, comes from a very specific racial 'theory' based on a rather strange set of quasi-platonic ideals and a bit of creative biblical literalism. they are also completely meaningless except in a social context.
Indeed. Its still accepted and used nonetheless, even though people shy away from using its exact synonym; races. In any case, I am going to do some reading on the matter and see what conclusions I'll come to.

Is the USA Imperialist? I wish. Alot of modern-day lefties rip on ol' Teddy Roosevelt for turning America into an empire in the early 20th century. For God's sake we took some pinprick islands in the middle of nowhere. And the largest ones we even gave back! And you want to compare this to Britain, Spain, or France? Even the DUTCH had a larger empire than America has ever had!

Is the USA Imperialist? I wish. Alot of modern-day lefties rip on ol' Teddy Roosevelt for turning America into an empire in the early 20th century. For God's sake we took some pinprick islands in the middle of nowhere. And the largest ones we even gave back! And you want to compare this to Britain, Spain, or France? Even the DUTCH had a larger empire than America has ever had!

actually, it started way back with the revolution. one of the complaints was about the proclamation of 1763, limiting expansion. most of the u.s. mainland is part of the empire. and 'giving back' isn't exactly what i would use to describe the huge amount of influence they've retained and used over those more distant places ever since.

Korrithor IS right.

We took Pacific islands that had populations less than my hometown.

Samoa had a few options, be absorbed by the Empire where the sun never set ( Great Britain, now United Kingdom ), taken and plundered of anything there originally and conscripted into a large military force by Prussia ( Yes people, Prussia existed up till the fancy little treaty to end WWI was signed ), or by a much less country that hasn't done a lot but use the islands has a defensive/offensive outpost for about 2,000 Trainees.

God forbid the Americans take an island.

But noooooo, let us forgive the French and the British for the countless lives they wasted that wern't even from THEIR OWN SOIL.

The French and Indian War - Thousands of Indians died.

The non-stop wars over India - Several Hindus and Muslims died.

And not to mention the Dutch. Yes, let us never mention the people who started the Slave trade. The ones that cheated native peopls out of their homelands.

But yes, this sounds mistakenly like America with the American-Indian Wars. That is perhaps the only thing I find dark about American history.

But I take it that the only reason why people bash on America is because they are the only nation to have ever only kept Democracy as their goal and form of Government and not have used any other forms.

Simplified version -

People don't bash on the Europeans because they were never Democratic when they took these lands and caused more deaths than any American war ( except the Civil War ) combined. I guess it is fine to excuse them for not being more Democratic and having some half-assed Monarchy in Britain, and some fucked up twisted half sister version of the British Parliament in France, and for possibly being the only nation to have tried every single drug LEGALLY all the way up to it's own Royal Chambers.

It is just much more easier to bash on a nation who has always stood for Democracy but yet holds a few territories through-out the world.

actually, it started way back with the revolution. one of the complaints was about the proclamation of 1763, limiting expansion. most of the u.s. mainland is part of the empire. and 'giving back' isn't exactly what i would use to describe the huge amount of influence they've retained and used over those more distant places ever since.

So me and my people are opressed and should revolt from the evil Sith Empire and form the Flat River Republic? Okay.

Korrithor IS right.

We took Pacific islands that had populations less than my hometown.

Samoa had a few options, be absorbed by the Empire where the sun never set ( Great Britain, now United Kingdom ), taken and plundered of anything there originally and conscripted into a large military force by Prussia ( Yes people, Prussia existed up till the fancy little treaty to end WWI was signed ), or by a much less country that hasn't done a lot but use the islands has a defensive/offensive outpost for about 2,000 Trainees.

God forbid the Americans take an island.

But noooooo, let us forgive the French and the British for the countless lives they wasted that wern't even from THEIR OWN SOIL.

The French and Indian War - Thousands of Indians died.

The non-stop wars over India - Several Hindus and Muslims died.

And not to mention the Dutch. Yes, let us never mention the people who started the Slave trade. The ones that cheated native peopls out of their homelands.

But yes, this sounds mistakenly like America with the American-Indian Wars. That is perhaps the only thing I find dark about American history.

But I take it that the only reason why people bash on America is because they are the only nation to have ever only kept Democracy as their goal and form of Government and not have used any other forms.

Simplified version -

People don't bash on the Europeans because they were never Democratic when they took these lands and caused more deaths than any American war ( except the Civil War ) combined. I guess it is fine to excuse them for not being more Democratic and having some half-assed Monarchy in Britain, and some fucked up twisted half sister version of the British Parliament in France, and for possibly being the only nation to have tried every single drug LEGALLY all the way up to it's own Royal Chambers.

It is just much more easier to bash on a nation who has always stood for Democracy but yet holds a few territories through-out the world.
Umm, are you on some kind of drug or something? Do you honestly think that European colonists evaded criticism? Or any colonists for that matter, be they Middle Eastern, Far Eastern or Western? Get off your bloody high horse and face reality. No imperial force so far has eluded criticism, and neither will the USA.

Additionally, if you wanna really get technical, slavery dates all the way back to the ancient Egyptians and Romans. So lets not blame the Dutch for the idea.

So me and my people are opressed and should revolt from the evil Sith Empire and form the Flat River Republic? Okay.

maybe, maybe not. frankly, i don't think you understand the term 'empire'.

Is the US Imperialist?

As for me, I think it is.
Allow me to respond with a somewhat lengthy quotation from the book I've just completed, Imperial Grunts: The American Military on the Ground, by Robert D. Kaplan:

"By the turn of the twenty-first century the United States military had already appropriated the entire earth, and was ready to flood the most obscure areas of it with troops on a moment's notice."

Making reference to a huge map in the Pentagon, Mr. Kaplan continues, "The Pentagon divided the planet into five area commands ... Northern Command, or NORTHCOM; Southern Command, or SOUTHCOM; European Command, or EUCOM; Central Command, or CENTCOM; and Pacific Command, or PACOM."

"This map left no point of the earth's surface unaccounted for. After I saw this map in the Pentagon, I stared at it for days on and off, tranfixed. How could the U.S. not constitute a global military empire? I thought."

"Imperialism is but a form of isolationism, in which the demand for absolute, undefiled security at home leads one to conquer the world, and in the process to become subject to all the world's anxieties. That is why empires arise at the fringes of consciousness, half in denial."

"Empires are works in progress, with necessity rather than glory the instigator of each outward push. The Venetian conquest of Dalmatia in 1000 began as an expedition against pirates, just as Venice's later conquest of the Morea, the Cyclades, and the Dodecanese in Greece was a defensive measure against a Turkish advance from the West. The British acquired Bermuda in 1684 to guard a stretch of the Atlantic. They took Trincomalee in Ceylon in 1795 to help guard India, and the Yemeni port of Aden in 1839 to have a coaling station for their ships en route to India through the Suez Canal."

"The American Empire progressed likewise. 'As both a dream and a fact the American Empire was born before the United States,' writes Bernard De Voto, the lyrical historian of westward expansion. Following their initial settlement, and before their incorporation as states in the Union, the western territories were nothig less than imperial possessions of Washington, D.C."

"The embryonic nation that hugged the eastern seaboard of North America had found it intolerable that the guns of European powers should be at its rear: the French in the Mississippi Valley, the Spanish in the Southwest, the British in Canada and the Northwest."

"...While the entire planet was a battle space for the American military, I would learn the the fewer troops that policed it the better. Small, light and lethal units of soldiers and marines, skilled in guerrilla warfare and attuned to the local environment in the way of the nineteenth-century Apaches, could accomplish more than dinosauric, industrial age infantry divisions."

"What would the United States have become without Adolf Hitler and Hideki Tojo? It was those dictators, and the men around them, who forced the U.S. out of its self-imposed isolation in order to meet the security threat posed by Nazism and Japanese militarism. The unintended consequences of successfully meeting those challenges include the encampment of the Soviet Red Army in the heart of Europe and a civil war in China that brought a communist regime to power: new threats which led to further American expansion."

"Four decades later, the victory over communism, like the victories over the Nazis and Japanese, led to more unintended consequences. Breaking the will of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan in the 1980s meant the arming of radical Islamic guerrillas, who subsequently turned against the great power that had helped sustain them: the United States. Henceforth, Islamic terrorism became the sharp edge of a seeping anarchy that followed in the wake of the collapse of the Soviet empire in Eurasia, and of the decomposition of states created by European empires on other continents."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't US possesions like Puerto Rico periodically vote on whether to remain part of the US? How is that imperialistic?

was pompeii part of the roman empire? i'm fairly sure they didn't feel particularly opressed or coerced into anything.

Fact. GWBush took America into a war based on lies.... WMD's
Fact. The largest companies to have benefitted from the Iraqi war are controlled by G Bush snr's best buddies...

Fact. If there was no oil in Iraq... the Americans would not be there at all...
Fact. Why did GWBush allow all of Bin Ladens relatives to leave the US, when all flights apart from military ones were grounded.


I know I am new to all this, but where do you get off calling someone an idiot? He asked you replied no need for abuse, or is that a lesson you learned from Bush and Chaney, call everyone who disagrees an idiot?

Call anyone who disagrees an idiot a republican Bush thing? how many times have democrats used idiots on republicans?

P.S. nobody should call anyone an idiot, we all have our views right or wrong but they are our views.

What do you think [about the US being imperialist]?
Even American history books say we are.
Even Americans say we are.
Even I say we are.
No, we don't have colonies.
We just shove our stick in everyone's pie.

I agree that it doesn't take colonies to be imperialist; any country ruled by financial monopolies will necessarily have a foreign policy that--by peaceful means or warlike--seeks to extend that country's domination over wealth and markets in every corner of the globe. This is true of the U.S., Japan, Australia, etc.

But for the record, the U.S.'s colonies include Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, and Hawai'i. There are also the oppressed nations within the U.S.--the American Indian nations, the Blacks, the Latinos, the Arab-Americans, etc.

Yes, Puerto Rico holds votes on the nation's status. These votes are held in a country dominated by the U.S. Navy presence, and under conditions where patriots are imprisoned or killed (as Filiberto Ojeda Rios was killed by an FBI raid last year) for advocating independence.

In Algeria, which had a legal status equal to the departments on the French mainland, the way Hawai'i has a legal status equal to other U.S. states, participants in French-organized plebiscites consistently voted against independence for more than a decade. By the time the French were forced to grant independence, it was obvious to all that the vast majority of Algerians opposed the French occupation.

Iraq did seam to me to be more economic interest than humanitarian interest.

Well imperialism is simply the the policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations. I'm sorry to say but political hegemony is exactly what the US's campaign in Afganistan and Iraq is, whether it be democracy or despotism the US is forcing it's own political views upon a foreign sovereign nation and forcing them to be run by this system alone. Imperialism is most often related to lack of regard for the sovereignty of nations, and quite frankly the US doesn't care about anyones sovereignty, except when it relates to their own of course. No matter how bad Iraq was under Saddam or Afganistan was under the Taliban, breaching their sovereignty by aggressively invading and annexing their country, and therefore subjugating their people into forced democratic rule is imperialism. Forced democracy is no democracy at all.

I agree that it doesn't take colonies to be imperialist; any country ruled by financial monopolies will necessarily have a foreign policy that--by peaceful means or warlike--seeks to extend that country's domination over wealth and markets in every corner of the globe. This is true of the U.S., Japan, Australia, etc.

But for the record, the U.S.'s colonies include Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, and Hawai'i. There are also the oppressed nations within the U.S.--the American Indian nations, the Blacks, the Latinos, the Arab-Americans, etc.

Yes, Puerto Rico holds votes on the nation's status. These votes are held in a country dominated by the U.S. Navy presence, and under conditions where patriots are imprisoned or killed (as Filiberto Ojeda Rios was killed by an FBI raid last year) for advocating independence.

In Algeria, which had a legal status equal to the departments on the French mainland, the way Hawai'i has a legal status equal to other U.S. states, participants in French-organized plebiscites consistently voted against independence for more than a decade. By the time the French were forced to grant independence, it was obvious to all that the vast majority of Algerians opposed the French occupation.
Go back to school. You obviously skipped history class too many times.

puerto rico is the only one. samoa, usvi, no votes.

puerto rico in congress is a joke. you can't vote on it, but it affects you. your vote is chuckled at.

puerto rico voted to stay out twice, if i'm correct

Yes, but no.

They had three options: Apply for statehood, remain a territory, or become independent. Both times PR chose to remain a territory.

They love the economic breaks of being a territory and if they became a state they would have to pay federal taxes. Basically, PR like mooching off of the US federal gov't.

Has anyone counted how many countries the US has bases in now vs. how many nations England, France, Spain or Rome had bases in at their height? The US doesn't actually claim the land but controls the governments and economies of more contries than any of the great empires.

Who put Saddam in power? Who put in and supported nearly every despot leader of the 20th century? And those that weren't US puppets are smeared while the others are honored.

Has anyone counted how many countries the US has bases in now vs. how many nations England, France, Spain or Rome had bases in at their height? The US doesn't actually claim the land but controls the governments and economies of more contries than any of the great empires.

Who put Saddam in power? Who put in and supported nearly every despot leader of the 20th century? And those that weren't US puppets are smeared while the others are honored.
Saddam put himself in power. Saddam was actually on our shitlist until he started a war with Iran who was even deeper on our shit list after the Iranian Hostage thing. Reagan made the mistake of desciding between the lesser of 2 evils, and now here we are having this conversation.

Saddam put himself in power. Saddam was actually on our shitlist until he started a war with Iran who was even deeper on our shit list after the Iranian Hostage thing. Reagan made the mistake of desciding between the lesser of 2 evils, and now here we are having this conversation.

Saddams first outings were CIA backedSee Article (http://www.upi.com/inc/view.php?StoryID=20030410-070214-6557r).

Secondly he was on the "good" list from 1976 when Kissinger withdrew funding from Kurdish rebels and left them on the Iraqi side of a sealed Turkish border.

They had three options: Apply for statehood, remain a territory, or become independent. Both times PR chose to remain a territory.

that's not quite accurate.

for example, the second vote was seen as a bit of a sham and the option that won was 'none of the above' in a wonderful bit of protest voting.

I don't know if I'd say the US is really an empire in the conventional sense. It doesn't really conquer and hold territory the way the Romans did, for example, but is more of an economic "empire". Still, that aspect could easily morph into outright imperialism, so I wouldn't dismiss it as harmless.

And no, I highly doubt the US attacked Iraq simply to "spread democracy". If, as often argued, human nature is quite rotten, it seems unlikely that anything a government would do would be purely benevolent. The economic motives are there and rather obvious.