NationStates Jolt Archive

The elderly parking lot attendant wasn't in a good mood! Neither was Sam Bierstock.

It was around 1 a.m., and Bierstock, a Delray Beach, Fla. eye doctor, business consultant, corporate speaker and musician, was bone tired after appearing at an event.

He pulled up in his car, and the parking attendant began to speak. "I took two bullets for this country and look what I'm doing," he said bitterly.

At first, Bierstock didn't know what to say to the World War II veteran. But he rolled down his window and told the man, "Really, from the bottom of my heart, I want to thank you."

Then the old soldier began to cry.

"That really got to me," Bierstock says.

Fast-forward to today.

Bierstock, 58, and John Melnick, 54, of Pompano Beach - a member of Bierstock's band, Dr. Sam and the Managed Care Band - have written a song inspired by that old soldier in the airport parking lot. The mournful "Before You Go" does more than salute those who fought in WWII. It encourages people to go out of their way to thank the aging warriors before they die.

"If we had lost that particular war, our whole way of life would have been shot," says Bierstock, who plays harmonica. "The WWII soldiers are now dying at the rate of about 2,000 every day. I thought we needed to thank them."

The song is striking a chord. Within four days of Bierstock placing it on the Web http://www.beforeyougo.us/ the song and accompanying photo essay have bounced around nine countries, producing tears and heartfelt thanks from veterans, their sons and daughters and grandchildren.

"It made me cry," wrote one veteran's son. Another sent an e-mail saying that only after his father consumed several glasses of wine would he discuss "the unspeakable horrors" he and other soldiers had witnessed in places such as Anzio, Iwo Jima, Bataan and Omaha Beach. "I can never thank them enough," the son wrote. "Thank you for thinking about them."

Bierstock and Melnick thought about shipping it off to a professional singer, maybe a Lee Greenwood type, but because time was running out for so many veterans, they decided it was best to release it quickly, for free, on the Web. They've sent the song to Sen. John McCain and others in Washington.

Already they have been invited to perform it in Houston for a Veterans Day tribute - this after just a few days on the Web. They hope every WWII veteran gets a chance to hear it.

If the first link doesn't work for you, please try http://www.managedmusic.com/beforeyougo.html

Whatever country the WWII veterans you know may be from, take a moment and thank them in whatever way you can manage. I suspect that it won't be much longer before there won't be any still around for us to thank.

They've already been thanked plenty. This last minute rush to appease one's own guilty conscience I hope will not catch on. They deserve more dignity than that.

They've already been thanked plenty. This last minute rush to appease one's own guilty conscience I hope will not catch on. They deserve more dignity than that.
Admit it Fass, you view any praise directed towards soldiers as "fellating the military" as you so aptly put it in another thread.

Bierstock, who plays harmonica.

The harmonica. What a great instrument to use in tribute. The bloody harmonica.

Admit it Fass, you view any praise directed towards soldiers as "fellating the military" as you so aptly put it in another thread.

No.

Admit it Fass, you view any praise directed towards soldiers as "fellating the military" as you so aptly put it in another thread.
I think it'd be easier to just say Fass is bitter (for whatever reason) and can't hide it very well. I've never met such a negative person in my life.

Admit it Fass, you view any praise directed towards soldiers as "fellating the military" as you so aptly put it in another thread.

*lol
He did? I love that... I'll have to write it down somewhere.

But do you honestly want me to thank my violent, abusive, arrogant and deluded grandfathers for defending Hitler's regime?

*lol
He did? I love that... I'll have to write it down somewhere.

But do you honestly want me to thank my violent, abusive, arrogant and deluded grandfathers for defending Hitler's regime?
Wow, maybe that should be amended to read "anyone on the winning side"

But do you honestly want me to thank my violent, abusive, arrogant and deluded grandfathers for defending Hitler's regime?

Hush, now. Don't interrupt the one side-centric feast. You might be called "negative," and that would truly be a shame.

Hush, now. Don't interrupt the one side-centric feast. You might be called "negative," and that would truly be a shame.

I've been called ugly, stupid and undisciplined today. Negative won't be the worst ;)

Well, if Hitler hadn't been stopped by the many soldiers that fought WW II in Europe, Sweden would be a Nazi paradise at this time, and Fass, at an early age, would have been packed off to a concentration camp to be gassed.

But on average, Fass has little positive to say about soldiers - and those soldiers who did something back then that today saved his life are barely worth mention.

I've been called ugly, stupid and undisciplined today. Negative won't be the worst ;)

Oh, don't be so certain. It will surely be like a scarlet letter branded to your chest.

Well, if Hitler hadn't been stopped by the many soldiers that fought WW II in Europe, Sweden would be a Nazi paradise at this time, and Fass, at an early age, would have been packed off to a concentration camp to be gassed.

But on average, Fass has little positive to say about soldiers - and those soldiers who did something back then that today saved his life are barely worth mention.

Appeal to some sort of emotion, "omg, you could have been this and that or whatever, but you probably wouldn't even have been born had history been changed in such a tremendous way, but let's pretend so that I can try to appeal to some flawed reasoning why you should be accosting these old people and ridding them of their dignity so that you may appease the guilty conscience I demand you have for things I just invented, because I wish to think I am a better person for having appeased mine." *yawn*

Appeal to some sort of emotion, "omg, you could have been this and that or whatever, but you probably wouldn't even have been born had history been changed in such a tremendous way, but let's pretend so that I can try to appeal to some flawed reasoning why you should be accosting these old people and ridding them of their dignity so that you may appease the guilty conscience I demand you have for things I just invented, because I wish to think I am a better person for having appeased mine." *yawn*
Ah, I love the smell of petty one sidedness in the morning.

Ah, I love the smell of petty one sidedness in the morning.

That does explain a certain something about your posting history.

I think it'd be easier to just say Fass is bitter (for whatever reason) and can't hide it very well. I've never met such a negative person in my life.


Right! lmfao!

MIB I'd like you to meet MIB...


A tribute to one of the nastiest, rudest most negative NS general posters:

SHUT UP FOREIGNER! ;)

I'm biased in the first place, considering I hate love stories. Add gay cowboy sex, and Heath Ledger, and I'd probably rather scratch through a brick wall with my fingernails.

Let me just right out and say it. I'm the flag waving nationalistic prick that all the Dems love to hate. If it's good for my country, I say do it. If someone is trying to hurt my countrymen and women, nail the motherfucker to a stake and cut off their eyelids.

No, Hell no, no freakin way, not a snowballs chance in hell. She is an evil slimy bitch.

Clear enough for ya? :D


And that was like page one of a search on your posts. There now, you've met someone more negative than any emo or goth kid I've ever talked to.


As for the tribute song to the WWII soldiers around the world, it was so full of it. Trying to say that they silently turned grey while never askign to be recognized for what they did? yeah right. Just reading the article Eut posted it says "I took two bullets for this country" wah wah wah. you knew the risks when you signed up and you have had plenty of thanks over the years.

I'll have to agree with Fass here though...

I have never ever felt the need to honour, respect or somehow mystify people who went to war, no matter on which side. They would've had their reasons, and so they did it. Had I been in their situation, I probably would've done the same.

Maybe this comes from coming from Germany, where being a veteran is not a good thing, and does not give you a free ride on the Bus...but Allied Vets need to suck it up a notch or two, and be glad they're having such an easy time as it is.

They aren't dying quickly enough to suit me. Miserable old coots.

The harmonica. What a great instrument to use in tribute. The bloody harmonica.
At least it wasn't a squeezebox.


http://pyracy.com/gallery/data/thumbnails/1/Squeezebox.jpg

They aren't dying quickly enough to suit me. Miserable old coots.

You

Don't get to talk again.

You

Don't get to talk again.
Says you.

Says you.

When someone insults veterans of WWII, which includes members of my own family, I think I get some right there. How dare you insult those brave men. You're not fit to even shine their boots.

When someone insults veterans of WWII, which includes members of my own family, I think I get some right there. How dare you insult those brave men. You're not fit to even shine their boots.
Hey, I have at least one veteran of WWII in my family? Do I get to insult them?

Get off it already. They did what anyone else would have done, and they don't deserve any sort of special treatment whatsoever.

When someone insults veterans of WWII, which includes members of my own family, I think I get some right there. How dare you insult those brave men. You're not fit to even shine their boots.
How dare you tell me I "don't get to talk again"? Who're you? My mother?

*lol
He did? I love that... I'll have to write it down somewhere.

But do you honestly want me to thank my violent, abusive, arrogant and deluded grandfathers for defending Hitler's regime?

Maybe they fought for their country, like countless other germans, and countless other HUMANS, regardless of the politics behind it. The Germans werent Nazis, it was just that the Nazis were Germans.

How dare you tell me I "don't get to talk again"? Who're you? My mother?

What happens when she says yes? :p

What happens when she says yes? :p
Fat chance as she's swimming with the fishes, so to speak.

you knew the risks when you signed up and you have had plenty of thanks over the years.

Someone, NOT POINTING ANY FINGERS, might be a little rusty on there history. You didnt exactly "sign up" for WWII, idiot.

Someone, NOT POINTING ANY FINGERS, might be a little rusty on there history. You didnt exactly "sign up" for WWII, idiot.
Well, lots of people did. Smart guy.

Maybe they fought for their country, like countless other germans, and countless other HUMANS, regardless of the politics behind it. The Germans werent Nazis, it was just that the Nazis were Germans.

Trust me, those two were.
No, nothing to be proud of.

Well, lots of people did. Smart guy.

And lots of people DIDNT, dumb guy...so whats your point.

[QUOTE=Neu Leonstein]Maybe this comes from coming from Germany[QUOTE]

It does.

Trust me, those two were.
No, nothing to be proud of.

Ok, then they were, but my point was that just because someone fought in the German army or even LIVED during the Nazi days, does not make them a Nazi. Look at the Pope.

Someone, NOT POINTING ANY FINGERS, might be a little rusty on there history. You didnt exactly "sign up" for WWII, idiot.


you're right - I am not a history major and have a poor memory anyway. So waht? That doesn't make my point any less valid? No, it doesn't.

Look MIB, another very negative person, just like you.

They aren't dying quickly enough to suit me. Miserable old coots.
Wow, thanks for totally destroying any hope I had for the human race.

Wow, thanks for totally destroying any hope I had for the human race.

Yeah, I dont know what the hell that guys problem is. He must have sand in his vagina.

you're right - I am not a history major and have a poor memory anyway. So waht? That doesn't make my point any less valid? No, it doesn't.

Look MIB, another very negative person, just like you.

It makes it a lot less valid...you said they should stop complaining or whatever because they signed up...I said NO they were (not all) forced to be in the war. So that makes it ALOT less valid, in fact, it basically changes everything.:rolleyes:

Whilst apologising for my earlier remark, which was typed in the heat of the moment, I would still like to know what exactly you have against veterans to put forward such an argument? Have you been personally wronged by one, BOP?

It makes it a lot less valid...you said they should stop complaining or whatever because they signed up...I said NO they were (not all) forced to be in the war. So that makes it ALOT less valid, in fact, it basically changes everything.:rolleyes:

okay that was a small part of my point and thats it. The main part was the song saying they never complained and silently grew gray never asking for
any recognition. BS! And those that were drafted i feel sorry for but they are hardly heros as theyy were forced to fight. They can complain about having been drafted though, but they could have bailed so it's thaier fault for following orders. Still a valid point so :p You're wrong!

You really need to quit your crying though. Cheer up spunky.

Ok, then they were, but my point was that just because someone fought in the German army or even LIVED during the Nazi days, does not make them a Nazi. Look at the Pope.
Yeah, we realize that. I bare no ill will to german vets who unwillingly for a government they didn't really support (although as a Jew, it has irked me that Europeans and organizations in a position to do something (the Catholic Church is the biggest that comes to mind), unlike the regular civillian, often did little.


If someone helped defend your country and the free world in a very clear-cut way, why not honor them? It was an incredible feat...not that I would personally even think of joining the army today, but WWII vets deserve respect. It has nothing to do with whether or not they had to do it. Many people are FORCED into situations(Anne Frank?) yet we remember them for the way they handled their troubles, not whether they took those trouble upon themselves or they were thrust upon them.

And lots of people DIDNT, dumb guy...so whats your point.


His point is that I am right about people having signed up lack of ability to think guy.

Ok, then they were, but my point was that just because someone fought in the German army or even LIVED during the Nazi days, does not make them a Nazi. Look at the Pope.

The pope might not be the best example here ;)
And yes, I know that not all Germans were Nazis... I grew up in the place.
But with very few examples, all Germans were either active Nazi supporters or "Mitlaeufer" (roughly translates as followers. People who aren't normally active and just follow what the neighbours are doing)

Yeah, we realize that. I bare no ill will to german vets who unwillingly for a government they didn't really support (although as a Jew, it has irked me that Europeans and organizations in a position to do something (the Catholic Church is the biggest that comes to mind), unlike the regular civillian, often did little.


If someone helped defend your country and the free world in a very clear-cut way, why not honor them? It was an incredible feat...not that I would personally even think of joining the army today, but WWII vets deserve respect. It has nothing to do with whether or not they had to do it. Many people are FORCED into situations(Anne Frank?) yet we remember them for the way they handled their troubles, not whether they took those trouble upon themselves or they were thrust upon them.

Wow, this could be the first time we have ever agreed on anything. You are exactly right, great post!

P.S. The Catholic Church during WWII was evil, they knew what was going on and didnt do shit, they were a bunch of bastards, but, are not even near the same people in the Catholic Church today, whom I have no problem with(my best friends are Catholic, I too am Jewish)

The pope might not be the best example here ;)
And yes, I know that not all Germans were Nazis... I grew up in the place.
But with very few examples, all Germans were either active Nazi supporters or "Mitlaeufer" (roughly translates as followers. People who aren't normally active and just follow what the neighbours are doing)

First of all...when people supported the Nazis (during the Nazis come to power) they had NO idea what was coming...even during the war the people still didnt know about the holocaust ( the general population), secondly, I'm pretty sure, though not positive that you had to be a member of the Nazi party in order to actually do anything in the Reich back then.

Whats wrong with the Pope?

His point is that I am right about people having signed up lack of ability to think guy.

What the hell are you talking about?

The Catholic Church during WWII was evil, they knew what was going on and didnt do shit, they were a bunch of bastards, but, are not even near the same people in the Catholic Church today, whom I have no problem with(my best friends are Catholic, I too am Jewish)
Actually, the Catholics in Germany were one of the more vocal dissident groups.
It was the Protestants who thought the whole idea was great. Must be from too much venerating Martin Luther.

The Pope on the other hand...well, I guess being in Italy must have had something to do with it.

Wow, this could be the first time we have ever agreed on anything. You are exactly right, great post!

P.S. The Catholic Church during WWII was evil, they knew what was going on and didnt do shit, they were a bunch of bastards, but, are not even near the same people in the Catholic Church today, whom I have no problem with(my best friends are Catholic, I too am Jewish)

Thanks, and it is true the Catholic Church has changed some. However, thier utter reluctance to advocate condoms as a last resort to stop AIDS (naturally they'd prefer you didn't put yourself in a situation to contract it at all) and other resistance to changing issues show that, as in many cases in history, change can be glacial with that institution.

*Blinks* Did we decide to refight WWII in this thread when I wasn't looking?

Actually, the Catholics in Germany were one of the more vocal dissident groups.
It was the Protestants who thought the whole idea was great. Must be from too much venerating Martin Luther.

The Pope on the other hand...well, I guess being in Italy must have had something to do with it.

When I said the Catholic Church...I actually physically meant the Vatican...sorry I didnt mean the Christian people...just the Catholic government. Sorry for that.

Thanks, and it is true the Catholic Church has changed some. However, thier utter reluctance to advocate condoms as a last resort to stop AIDS (naturally they'd prefer you didn't put yourself in a situation to contract it at all) and other resistance to changing issues show that, as in many cases in history, change can be glacial with that institution.

Well its in their religion that they dont want people to have premarital sex....I mean you and I know that your not going to stop people from doing that, but maybe the Church just has more hope for humans than we do.?

Well its in their religion that they dont want people to have premarital sex....I mean you and I know that your not going to stop people from doing that, but maybe the Church just has more hope for humans than we do.?
I realize that...however, you can be a strong advocate of no premaritial sex and still say to people: "But if you MUST be a satanic, hell-bound sinner...use a condom":p

First of all...when people supported the Nazis (during the Nazis come to power) they had NO idea what was coming...even during the war the people still didnt know about the holocaust ( the general population), secondly, I'm pretty sure, though not positive that you had to be a member of the Nazi party in order to actually do anything in the Reich back then.

Whats wrong with the Pope?

Correct, people didn't know. Most of them didn't. And yet, there were a small number of resistance groups within Germany. for example the White Rose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weisse_Rose) who knew about the Holocaust and tried to inform the public. It was possible to get the knowledge, it's just that the vast majority of people didn't care about the truth half as much as they did wbout their own safety.

No, you didn't have to be a member of the Nazi party. Membership was never compulsory. If you wanted a career anywhere, though, a membership was vital. And it did bring a great deal of advantages in everyday life, for example holidays abroad.

The pope? I grew up a Catholic in Germany, so I got a good dose of this man when he was still Cardinal in Germany. that was one of the main reasons why I'm no longer Catholic today...

*Blinks* Did we decide to refight WWII in this thread when I wasn't looking?
If so, can we choose sides? I want to be Ethiopia. This time, we'll kick some butt!

Correct, people didn't know. Most of them didn't. And yet, there were a small number of resistance groups within Germany. for example the White Rose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weisse_Rose) who knew about the Holocaust and tried to inform the public. It was possible to get the knowledge, it's just that the vast majority of people didn't care about the truth half as much as they did wbout their own safety.

No, you didn't have to be a member of the Nazi party. Membership was never compulsory. If you wanted a career anywhere, though, a membership was vital. And it did bring a great deal of advantages in everyday life, for example holidays abroad.

The pope? I grew up a Catholic in Germany, so I got a good dose of this man when he was still Cardinal in Germany. that was one of the main reasons why I'm no longer Catholic today...

Well you can only expect people to look out for themselves (the general German public) before looking after other people. I mean come on...if you tried to do anything anti Nazi, you were killed.

Also thats what I meant when I said "to do anything in the Reich" you had to be a member of the Nazi party.

Wait, I'm lost, whats so bad about this guy, he seems alright to me.

Wait, I'm lost, whats so bad about this guy, he seems alright to me.
He's ultra-conservative, anti-women's rights, anti-gay right's, anti-abortion and all that, plus his general demeanour made him rather unpopular, even in conservative Southern Germany.

What the hell are you talking about?

forget it, I never really expected you to be able to understand. let's just say you were wrong and leave it at that.

He's ultra-conservative, anti-women's rights, anti-gay right's, anti-abortion and all that, plus his general demeanour made him rather unpopular, even in conservative Southern Germany.

I see nothing wrong with that.

(EXCEPT anti-women's rights) As for being anti-gay and anti-abortion, hes the freaking pope, what do you expect! All devout religous catholics are anti gay anti abortion. For being anti gay, more power to them...I hope they take a louder stance against gay rights, as for being anti abortion...well im not really sure what to think against abortion since im not a woman, but i am looking at it from the view of the unborn child so i am most likely anti abortion. So again, more power to him.

forget it, I never really expected you to be able to understand. let's just say you were wrong and leave it at that.

Dude, go get a horse and live in the mountains.

I realize that...however, you can be a strong advocate of no premaritial sex and still say to people: "But if you MUST be a satanic, hell-bound sinner...use a condom":p

No they cant do that, because then they are still accepting it, just not approving it. Thats like saying, "dont kill". But since your gonna kill use a silencer.

Well you can only expect people to look out for themselves (the general German public) before looking after other people. I mean come on...if you tried to do anything anti Nazi, you were killed.

Hang on.... wasn't this thread about people who didn't, or supposedly didn't, look out for themselves first and did get in the line of fire?



Wait, I'm lost, whats so bad about this guy, he seems alright to me.

True... he has kept very quiet since he was ordained.
He had a very bad reputation in Germany (deservedly so, imo), for being one of the toughest harliners concerning women in the church (no priesthood, in his time not even assistance with the service, I remember one sermon about the values of home and hearth...), he almost managed to destroy in a very Bush-like manner the eucemism between Catholic church and Lutheran chruch that has been painstakingly built by some dedicated individuals on both sides for many years.....
But he seems to be doing no worse than the previous pope right now, I'll give him that.

Dude, go get a horse and live in the mountains.


No you would probably buck me off. Oh wait nevermind you said horse, not jackass.

Dude, go get a horse and live in the mountains.
If I know Su, he'd probably prefer to get a mountain and live dressed in a horse suit. Anyway, why are you so high-and-mighty?

If I know Su, he'd probably prefer to get a mountain and live dressed in a horse suit. Anyway, why are you so high-and-mighty?


damn, you DO know me!

Hang on.... wasn't this thread about people who didn't, or supposedly didn't, look out for themselves first and did get in the line of fire?




True... he has kept very quiet since he was ordained.
He had a very bad reputation in Germany (deservedly so, imo), for being one of the toughest harliners concerning women in the church (no priesthood, in his time not even assistance with the service, I remember one sermon about the values of home and hearth...), he almost managed to destroy in a very Bush-like manner the eucemism between Catholic church and Lutheran chruch that has been painstakingly built by some dedicated individuals on both sides for many years.....
But he seems to be doing no worse than the previous pope right now, I'll give him that.

Well all that is news to me, but the previous pope was a great guy. A amazing Pope (from a non catholic point of view) and a model human. What dont you like about that late John Paul II?

No you would probably buck me off. Oh wait nevermind you said horse, not jackass.

Omg what is this, third grade?

If I know Su, he'd probably prefer to get a mountain and live dressed in a horse suit. Anyway, why are you so high-and-mighty?

I was born that way, whats your deal?

Omg what is this, third grade?


Well I was tryign to raise the bar from your initial insults and I thought I would start out slow so that you could keep up.

I calls 'em likes I sees 'em.

I see nothing wrong with that.

(EXCEPT anti-women's rights) As for being anti-gay and anti-abortion, hes the freaking pope, what do you expect! All devout religous catholics are anti gay anti abortion. For being anti gay, more power to them...I hope they take a louder stance against gay rights, as for being anti abortion...well im not really sure what to think against abortion since im not a woman, but i am looking at it from the view of the unborn child so i am most likely anti abortion. So again, more power to him.

Wrong.
I went to a Catholic school and was taught by nuns, who generally were definitely pro gay rights and in exceptional cases pro choice. They didn't appreciate the idea of abortion as a form of contraceptive, and would encourage to rather take a different option (adoption), but in case of rape for example they were pretty outspoken to allow abortion. Some of them also rallied for women to be allowed to become priests, and to abolish celibacy in priesthood.

While I agree that they were very liberal in their opinions for nuns, I can tell you first hand that one of the biggest problem of the Catholic church today is that they long ago lost contact with their own base. The pope has no idea what Catholics in Germany believe in, and Catholics in Germany regard the pope more and more as a simple figurehead without real influence on their daily life.

Wrong.
I went to a Catholic school and was taught by nuns, who generally were definitely pro gay rights and in exceptional cases pro choice. They didn't appreciate the idea of abortion as a form of contraceptive, and would encourage to rather take a different option (adoption), but in case of rape for example they were pretty outspoken to allow abortion. Some of them also rallied for women to be allowed to become priests, and to abolish celibacy in priesthood.

While I agree that they were very liberal in their opinions for nuns, I can tell you first hand that one of the biggest problem of the Catholic church today is that they long ago lost contact with their own base. The pope has no idea what Catholics in Germany believe in, and Catholics in Germany regard the pope more and more as a simple figurehead without real influence on their daily life.

1. those nuns were very liberal for catholic nuns and should not be used to generalize for catholics.
2. You are right about the pope.

1. those nuns were very liberal for catholic nuns and should not be used to generalize for catholics.

All devout religous catholics are anti gay anti abortion.

No true Scotsman, eh? ;)
Or are you trying to say that the nuns were not devout or not religious?

No true Scotsman, eh? ;)
Or are you trying to say that the nuns were not devout or not religious?

I was trying to say that they just happend to have very liberal ideas for a religious catholic.

Then again.....what if they werent nuns.....

I was trying to say that they just happend to have very liberal ideas for a religious catholic.

Then again.....what if they werent nuns.....

*lol
Trust me, they were.
They were liberal, yes. But not "very liberal". I've seen convents and monasteries that were more liberal than that of my school. A friend of mine went to a school run by Benedictine monks. The abbot was a huge AC/DC fan, and regularly played their songs with the school band. He was playing base guitar.

Gave some thought to Fass' commentary on continuing to honor WW II veterans.

We talk a lot about heroes and heroism today. In doing so we denigrate the term. Heroism, properly speaking, is rare. Everybody I've met who fought in World War II (and incidentally, all war veterans I know), fought because he wanted to, but of course combat duty does not necessarily involve death. That it involves the chance of death in the line of duty is perhaps commendable, but it is not heroic. The term "above and beyond the call of duty" is indefinable, since anything that you can do is what you should do.

Lord Nelson defined the heroic death at Trafalgar. He was convinced - correctly - that his wound was mortal. As he lay there on the deck, his repeated words were "Thank God I have done my duty!" He fought because it was his duty to fight, and he died doing his duty. This is heroism. Signing up for combat pay is not.

Gave some thought to Fass' commentary on continuing to honor WW II veterans.

We talk a lot about heroes and heroism today. In doing so we denigrate the term. Heroism, properly speaking, is rare. Everybody I've met who fought in World War II (and incidentally, all war veterans I know), fought because he wanted to, but of course combat duty does not necessarily involve death. That it involves the chance of death in the line of duty is perhaps commendable, but it is not heroic. The term "above and beyond the call of duty" is indefinable, since anything that you can do is what you should do.

Lord Nelson defined the heroic death at Trafalgar. He was convinced - correctly - that his wound was mortal. As he lay there on the deck, his repeated words were "Thank God I have done my duty!" He fought because it was his duty to fight, and he died doing his duty. This is heroism. Signing up for combat pay is not.

Seconded.
Although I have a vague feeling that we will disagree on the definition of the term "duty" ;)

I'll honour my dead grandfather - he was a marine and fought all over the world, but he didn't really talk about his time at war. He didn't even tell my dad much about it. That's the thing in Britain - most people didn't really go on about the war and how they were veterans, they just tried to get on with life and forget about it.

My great uncle, however, was an exception. He manned a machine gun emplacement - not exactly a particuarly heroic job when your enemies have simple rifles, but he used to constantly boast about how many people he killed. I will not honour him. Simply being a veteran doesn't mean you are due respect - you have to have done your duty in an honourable way.

Gave some thought to Fass' commentary on continuing to honor WW II veterans.

We talk a lot about heroes and heroism today. In doing so we denigrate the term. Heroism, properly speaking, is rare. Everybody I've met who fought in World War II (and incidentally, all war veterans I know), fought because he wanted to, but of course combat duty does not necessarily involve death. That it involves the chance of death in the line of duty is perhaps commendable, but it is not heroic. The term "above and beyond the call of duty" is indefinable, since anything that you can do is what you should do.Heroism is not rare, it's very common, however it's not always reported. people can do 'Heroic' things that affect a few people while others can do the same that affect a Nation. A Firefighter is doing what he is paid to do, yet to a child, pulled out of a burning building, that person is a Hero. A Security Guard at a hospital is getting paid for the work she wanted to do, but when a crazed woman bannished a gun in the Emergency Room, she calmly set herself between her and the patients, also a 'Heroic' thing to do (and true to.)

As for these Veterans, yes, they signed up willingly, but most signed up to fight an enemy that threatened not just the people in Europe, but may even threaten the Americas. most left family behind to help strangers they never met and others had to find different ways to help because they were deemed 'unfit' for duty. There was a WAR going on, so those that signed up willingly also signed up knowing where they were going, yet they still did so, knowing that there was a great chance they wouldn't return.
Lord Nelson defined the heroic death at Trafalgar. He was convinced - correctly - that his wound was mortal. As he lay there on the deck, his repeated words were "Thank God I have done my duty!" He fought because it was his duty to fight, and he died doing his duty. This is heroism. Signing up for combat pay is not.so Lord Nelson wasn't paid for his service to Queen and Country? Somehow I don't think so.

I think you belittle him as well as all those who died doing their "duty" if you define Heroics by wether or not one receives a "paycheck" and don't forget, as Commander, he got a percentage for all ransoms his fleet receives from capturing enemy ships and cargo.

Heroism is not rare, it's very common, however it's not always reported. people can do 'Heroic' things that affect a few people while others can do the same that affect a Nation.

As for these Veterans, yes, they signed up willingly ...
Most WWII veterans weren't volunteers; they were drafted.

I'm a great admirer of "everyday heros," those who struggle through life on a daily basis against great odds to make a life for themselves and their families. Some of the single mothers I've known had more courage in their little fingers than many of the publicly acclaimed "heroes" I've seen lionized over the years.

Most WWII veterans weren't volunteers; they were drafted.

I'm a great admirer of "everyday heros," those who struggle through life on a daily basis against great odds to make a life for themselves and their families. Some of the single mothers I've known had more courage in their little fingers than many of the publicly acclaimed "heroes" I've seen lionized over the years.
I thought so, but wasn't sure, hence the word "Most". Thanks for the info.

Actually, the Catholics in Germany were one of the more vocal dissident groups.
It was the Protestants who thought the whole idea was great. Must be from too much venerating Martin Luther.

The Pope on the other hand...well, I guess being in Italy must have had something to do with it.
To be precise half the prodestant chruch thought it was a great idea, the other formed another church against the Nazis, while the other half formed something like The National Christian church or something while at first The Roman Catholic Church and Nazis fomed an agreement of basically live n let live though that broke down quite quickly, mainly due to Hitlers dislike of christianity and the fact that Priests began speaking out against him in services.

Most WWII veterans weren't volunteers; they were drafted.
Maybe in the U.S. they were. That doesn't hold true wherever you go, though. You're speaking a little too glibly to be taken at your word.

Maybe in the U.S. they were. That doesn't hold true wherever you go, though. You're speaking a little too glibly to be taken at your word.
Well, they also were in the Soviet Union, and in later years in Germany as well. Which makes for the majority I think - particularly considering that the Chinese peasants were probably not given much of a choice either.