NationStates Jolt Archive

We really ought to be worried about this trend. College grads aren't any better off than high school grads when it comes to problem solving. Must be all those liberal elective classes in alternate life styles and such that we discuss regularly.

From the USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-01-19-college-tasks_x.htm)...

WASHINGTON (AP) — Nearing a diploma, most college students cannot handle many complex but common tasks, from understanding credit card offers to comparing the cost per ounce of food.

We don't need no education,
We don't need no thought control.
No dark sarcasm in the classrom,
Teachers leave our kids alone.
Hey, teachers! Leave our kids alone
I couldn't resist :D

We really ought to be worried about this trend. College grads aren't any better off than high school grads when it comes to problem solving. Must be all those liberal elective classes in alternate life styles and such that we discuss regularly.

From the USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-01-19-college-tasks_x.htm)...
Actually, it could be solved with PBL - Problem Based Learning.

We really ought to be worried about this trend. College grads aren't any better off than high school grads when it comes to problem solving. Must be all those liberal elective classes in alternate life styles and such that we discuss regularly.

From the USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-01-19-college-tasks_x.htm)...

Most education in most parts of the world consists of unquestioning acceptance of fact, memorization of the same, and parroting it back on tests and papers.

People learn to "reference" and "quote" the old ideas instead of asking questions and demanding proof.

If you question the interpretion of the causes of WW I that your history professor lays out, you're going to fail the class.

Well, as long as US universities continue to be rated the best, I'm not all that worried.

I'll dismiss it as anti-Americanism.

Well, as long as US universities continue to be rated the best, I'm not all that worried.

I'll dismiss it as anti-Americanism.
And precisely which ones would that gross overstatement cover? The elite few that constitute 'Ivy League'? :rolleyes:

And precisely which ones would that gross overstatement cover? The elite few that constitute 'Ivy League'? :rolleyes:
I think the real difficulty is in getting students interested. I haven't looked at the study, but I'm going to be that students studying sciences are a whole lot better at both mathematical and literacy tasks. The ones that get a degree in economics, sociology, or education are probably the ones that have difficulty in completing complex tasks.

And precisely which ones would that gross overstatement cover? The elite few that constitute 'Ivy League'?
Michigan State and Michigan University are what I'm aiming for.
If I can get accepted, I hope to transfer to Cornell.

They're not bad colleges.

I generally find the whole idea that this thread covers as a gross overstatement.
Its anti-Americanism, in my opinion.

There's stupid people everywhere, yes, even in Canada.
Not to mention I can't understand New Foundlanders...Newfies...whatever.

We really ought to be worried about this trend. College grads aren't any better off than high school grads when it comes to problem solving. Must be all those liberal elective classes in alternate life styles and such that we discuss regularly.

From the USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-01-19-college-tasks_x.htm)...
Is there any point in time where you arn't trolling liberals?

I think the real difficulty is in getting students interested. I haven't looked at the study, but I'm going to be that students studying sciences are a whole lot better at both mathematical and literacy tasks. The ones that get a degree in economics, sociology, or education are probably the ones that have difficulty in completing complex tasks.
I'm convinced that you have to have some innate ability to think your way out of a wet paper bag to begin with.

If you're rock stupid in that regard, no amount of education is going to make a difference.

Is there any point in time where you arn't trolling liberals?
I'm a fisherman, sue me. Hooked you, though. Be glad I'm a catch and release guy.

from understanding credit card offers to comparing the cost per ounce of food.

I don't blame them - credit card offers are stupidly complex and made to screw you over (hence why you should never get a credit card), and ounces are part of an arcane system of measurements that never made sense in the first place. Doing it in kilogrammes is a cinch, and they should no longer support the inferior "imperial" "system."

Doesn't take Americans, credit cards or imperial measurements.

I used to ask students this: You take out a loan of 100,000 DM at 10% interest p.a.
You repay 500 DM a month. How long will it approximately take to repay the loan?

The answers I got varied between 10 and 50 years.

In good old Europe.

I don't blame them - credit card offers are stupidly complex and made to screw you over (hence why you should never get a credit card), and ounces are part of an arcane system of measurements that never made sense in the first place. Doing it in kilogrammes is a cinch, and they should no longer support the inferior "imperial" "system."
Metric is just a crutch for people that can't count higher than ten. Price per unit is a thing that anyone should understand. Even you metricists should be able to figure out what the price per ounce is, unless you use Kronas or some other obscure currency.

Doesn't take Americans, credit cards or imperial measurements.

I used to ask students this: You take out a loan of 100,000 DM at 10% interest p.a.
You repay 500 DM a month. How long will it approximately take to repay the loan?

The answers I got varied between 10 and 50 years.

In good old Europe.
Compounded or simple?

Compounded or simple?
That certainly complicates things *there goes my simple equation*
But with simple I believe it would take you 18 years, four months?

Metric is just a crutch for people that can't count higher than ten.

Powers of ten, if you please.

Price per unit is a thing that anyone should understand. Even you metricists should be able to figure out what the price per ounce is, unless you use Kronas or some other obscure currency.

Oh? So let's say we have something you bought in pounds, but you have the per unit price in ounces. How many ounces in a pound? It's ridiculous. If you simply state what it is in (kilo)grammes, you actually know how much it weighs, and don't have to think of whether it is fluid ounces or whatever.

That certainly complicates things *there goes my simple equation*
There's always a catch. An auto loan is likely to be simple interest, but a credit card is certainly compound. Hell, figuring compound interest is what calculators are good at, right?

Compounded or simple?

You serious?

The answer is never. You don't even pay off the interest, neither compounded nor simple. Work it out.

Oh? So let's say we have something you bought in pounds, but you have the per unit price in ounces. How many ounces in a pound? It's ridiculous. If you simply state what it is in (kilo)grammes, you actually know how much it weighs, and don't have to think of whether it is fluid ounces or whatever.

You would love the US then. Liquid soap for dishwashers is now labeled at the store in a unit price that is "amount of money per use". Same for laundry detergent (wet or dry), so you can accurately compare how many times you can run the washer for a set amount of money.

Powers of ten, if you please.



Oh? So let's say we have something you bought in pounds, but you have the per unit price in ounces. How many ounces in a pound? It's ridiculous. If you simply state what it is in (kilo)grammes, you actually know how much it weighs, and don't have to think of whether it is fluid ounces or whatever.
If one has grown up with ounces, they should have some familiarity with those amounts. It's no different than reading or speaking a language.

If one has grown up with ounces, they should have some familiarity with those amounts. It's no different than reading or speaking a language.
Perhaps they only teach division by ten in Europe...

You would love the US then. Liquid soap for dishwashers is now labeled at the store in a unit price that is "amount of money per use". Same for laundry detergent (wet or dry), so you can accurately compare how many times you can run the washer for a set amount of money.

Oh, it's the law here. Items sold in such a way must have a per unit price posted next to their package price. So, the US is not so tempting in that department.

If one has grown up with ounces, they should have some familiarity with those amounts. It's no different than reading or speaking a language.

You'd think so, but then not even the people at NASA manage to convert correctly.

We really ought to be worried about this trend. College grads aren't any better off than high school grads when it comes to problem solving. Must be all those liberal elective classes in alternate life styles and such that we discuss regularly.

From the USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-01-19-college-tasks_x.htm)...

No. It's not the liberal arts classes that does it. In fact, that's probably the last thing that helps.

The thing is, college isn't really about education. It's mostly just used as vocational training. Think about it. No matter how much math you learn in becoming an engineer, you're still not going to be any better of when trying to distinguish fact from fiction from editorializing when reading a newspaper article.

It's the study of humanities that prepares people for these tasks, not business, engineering, or pre-med classes. Those classes have their place, but they're vocational training. Not education.

No. It's not the liberal arts classes that does it. In fact, that's probably the last thing that helps.

The thing is, college isn't really about education. It's mostly just used as vocational training. Think about it. No matter how much math you learn in becoming an engineer, you're still not going to be any better of when trying to distinguish fact from fiction from editorializing when reading a newspaper article.

It's the study of humanities that prepares people for these tasks, not business, engineering, or pre-med classes. Those classes have their place, but they're vocational training. Not education.
one thing I have noticed about the people in college. A lot of them are going for a degree in psycology or sociology, or some bs like that. When you try to talk to them about current events, or politics, or anything intellectual, they just stand there with a blank look, and go "DUHhhh." But if you ask them who won on "Dancing with the stars" or who is married to who in Hollywood, well, then its like they got a phD in it or something. Its scary how some college students dont even know basic geography, or even government people, like the Vice Pres or sec. of state!

I'm a fisherman, sue me. Hooked you, though. Be glad I'm a catch and release guy.
Didn't you see the sign? No fishing.

I wonder as to the validity of this study. How are the questions worded and what is the format?

I just find it extremly hard to believe that

Almost 20% of students pursuing four-year degrees had only basic quantitative skills. For example, the students could not estimate if their car had enough gas to get to the service station.

C'mon. A 10 year old can tell you if you have 3 gallons of gas left, and your car averages 25mpg, that you wont make it 100 miles (your next stop).

Michigan State and Michigan University are what I'm aiming for.
If I can get accepted, I hope to transfer to Cornell.

They're not bad colleges.

I generally find the whole idea that this thread covers as a gross overstatement.
Its anti-Americanism, in my opinion.

There's stupid people everywhere, yes, even in Canada.
Not to mention I can't understand New Foundlanders...Newfies...whatever.
Wow, I made no mention of people being stupid everyone and you take it completely out of context. :rolleyes: git...

Further, I merely felt that you were overrating many colleges in the US which wouldn't be offering the same level of academic education as some of the more revered ones in the US.

It isn't Anti-Americanism; the person was expressing an opinion based on information (s)he had read. Whether or not it is true is debateable, but they made their point based on information, ironically enough provided by an American news source. I wasn't aware of America media being so 'Anti-American'... :rolleyes:

Metric is just a crutch for people that can't count higher than ten. Price per unit is a thing that anyone should understand. Even you metricists should be able to figure out what the price per ounce is, unless you use Kronas or some other obscure currency.

Most like an excused for the US not to join 2006 - it the US isn't socially 30 years behind the rest of the world - interms of adopting international standards, its easily 60 years behind.

You'd think so, but then not even the people at NASA manage to convert correctly.

NASA = Need Another Seven Astronauts

Wow, I made no mention of people being stupid everyone and you take it completely out of context. :rolleyes: git...

Further, I merely felt that you were overrating many colleges in the US which wouldn't be offering the same level of academic education as some of the more revered ones in the US.

It isn't Anti-Americanism; the person was expressing an opinion based on information (s)he had read. Whether or not it is true is debateable, but they made their point based on information, ironically enough provided by an American news source. I wasn't aware of America media being so 'Anti-American'... :rolleyes:

Babe, its the typical knee jerk reaction of a seppo - when ever a flaw is shown in the 'almight, fabulous, bleeeding edge, never does anything wrong' US system - there is a jihad declared by the wide asses over there as they run after us 'damn foreigners' whilst trying to juggle their super size McDonalds meal.

Its the US, land of self delusion, extreme patrioticism, and stupidity that never seems to amaze the rest of the world.

Babe, its the typical knee jerk reaction of a seppo - when ever a flaw is shown in the 'almight, fabulous, bleeeding edge, never does anything wrong' US system - there is a jihad declared by the wide asses over there as they run after us 'damn foreigners' whilst trying to juggle their super size McDonalds meal.

Its the US, land of self delusion, extreme patrioticism, and stupidity that never seems to amaze the rest of the world.

And that, my dear, is flamebaiting.

Knock it off.

I don't get it.

If the US Post-Secondary educational system is so inept, why do tens of thousands of international students come to be educated in the US every year?

I don't get it.

If the US Post-Secondary educational system is so inept, why do tens of thousands of international students come to be educated in the US every year?

Because the facilities are good - because these universities are well funded by donations by 'rich fucks' - where as in New Zealand, the 'rich fucks' will say, 'its not my fucking responsibility to donate to universities! I pay taxes, thats what they should be used for!" and thus, we don't have money floating around like they do in the US.

That, and the fact that you completely neglect the fact that you never actually define what a good university is; alot of this 'best university' shit is based around the name, more than the quality of the teaching.

In New Zealand there is a lot of hoo-ha made about Massey University - but the reality is, its no better than Victoria, Canterbury or Lincoln.

And that, my dear, is flamebaiting.

Knock it off.

How so? some Americans do need to be pulled down a few notches, and realise that the US isn't gods gift to earth.

im confused. you think that colleges and universities should be teaching basic life skills like price comparison shopping and credit card offers but blame it on soft life skill type classes being offered?

higher education doesnt COVER "how far will my car go before it's empty?". you have to learn that on your own.

The American university system is still the best in the world. Though I admit I was amused when I read this article, because the question automatcially poped into my mind, "So do they imply then that previous graduates or the current 'adult' population of the US can do those tasks as well?"

I don't think it's anti-americanism, I DO look at it as another "Oh noes! Our education system is going to hell in a handbasket because our kids can't perform X task. Back in MY day, we could do X task blindfolded with our hand tied behind our back as we walked to school through the snow, up hill, both ways! These kids today are just dumb and don't know how to work hard."

But it WOULD be fun to check and see how many people in the US can do such things, or the complex tasks that college students do while at college.

The American university system is still the best in the world. Though I admit I was amused when I read this article, because the question automatcially poped into my mind, "So do they imply then that previous graduates or the current 'adult' population of the US can do those tasks as well?"

I don't think it's anti-americanism, I DO look at it as another "Oh noes! Our education system is going to hell in a handbasket because our kids can't perform X task. Back in MY day, we could do X task blindfolded with our hand tied behind our back as we walked to school through the snow, up hill, both ways! These kids today are just dumb and don't know how to work hard."

But it WOULD be fun to check and see how many people in the US can do such things, or the complex tasks that college students do while at college.

Well, the issues they did raise show the old 'nutty professor' syndrome, and the myth that is perpetuated that those wh ohave been to college/university are pratical AND smart.

The skills which they lack are actually skills that parents should have taught them when they were young - I'm sure some of us remember going shopping with our mum or dad, and being showed how to do basic number equations in our head when purchasing vegetables etc.

Practical skills like budgeting, cooking, cleaning etc. are the job of the parent, not the education system - the day people start expecting the educaitopn system to teach such skills, is the day we might as well hand our kids over to the government, and let nanny state do the work.

Well, the issues they did raise show the old 'nutty professor' syndrome, and the myth that is perpetuated that those wh ohave been to college/university are pratical AND smart.
And once again people confuse intelligence with experiance and wisdom. Intelligence tells you it's raining, experiance tells you what happens if you stay in the rain, and wisdom tells you that it would be wise to get the hell out of the rain then.

College provides advanced training to stimulate itelligence and provide experiance in certain fields, but wisdom and further experiance takes time.

And no, I didn't mean you, yourself, confused them, but the folks in the article certainly did.

Whether or not it is true is debateable, but they made their point based on information, ironically enough provided by an American news source. I wasn't aware of America media being so 'Anti-American'...
Again:
I generally find the whole idea that this thread covers as a gross overstatement.

But, I must address your idea of an American news not being, "anti-American." You see here, the phrase, "anti-American" isn't just used by right wing loonies. The source was written for a purpose, and when reading things, one is supposed to determine why the source was written. That way, we don't go blindly about following what ever is text, like somehow, if its written down, its credible.

I find the source to be based on a mustard seed of truth. The fact is, America has many people that can do basic math. America isn't full of a bunch of idiots.

Its the US, land of self delusion, extreme patrioticism, and stupidity that never seems to amaze the rest of the world.
Knee-jerk reaction.
Like that's not.
*sigh*

How so? some Americans do need to be pulled down a few notches, and realise that the US isn't gods gift to earth.
Exactly! Everyone knows that Canadians are God's gift to earth! :p just foolin' but really, I agree, and I felt that your response was more tactless than it was a flamebait, hun. I didn't see it as flamebaiting.

I find the source to be based on a mustard seed of truth. The fact is, America has many people that can do basic math. America isn't full of a bunch of idiots.
Oh and here I thought they were... :rolleyes: I still don't see your point. You're defending a broad spectrum, rather than the narrow which deserves to be defended because it is the cream of the crop.

The Progress of Math Education
Teaching Math in 1955
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is 4/5 of the price. What is his profit?

Teaching Math in 1965
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is 4/5 of the price, or $80. What is his profit?

Teaching Math in 1975
A logger exchanges a set "L" of lumber for a set "M" of money. The cardinality of set "M" is 100. Each element is worth one dollar. Make 100 dots representing the elements of the set "M". The set "C", the cost of production contains 20 fewer points than set "M." Represent the set "C" as a subset of set "M" and answer the following question: What is the cardinality of the set "P" for profits?

Teaching Math in 1985
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. Her cost of production is $80 and her profit is $20. Your assignment: Underline the number 20.

Teaching Math in 1995
By cutting down beautiful forest trees, the logger makes $20. How do you feel about this way of making a living by destroying nature? Topic for class participation after answering the question: Everyone take on the roles of the forest birds, squirrels, and trees and express how they would feel as the logger cuts down the trees. There are no wrong answers.

Teaching Math in 2005.
Invade a foreign country. Use public funds to rebuild that country. Award all contracts to Haliburton. Read the applicable laws on minority hiring for federal contractors for materials to justify giving all contracts on a no-bid basis to Haliburton.

Teaching Math in 2015
You cut down a tree and sell it for a profit of $20. Pay 10% to your Pastor. Find appropriate bible-quotes to paint on the log, and call it Intelligent Design.


It ain't the funding, it's the garbage in the curriculum.

Oh and here I thought they were... :rolleyes: I still don't see your point. You're defending a broad spectrum, rather than the narrow which deserves to be defended because it is the cream of the crop.
Yeah, I know I'm defending a broad spectrum. Of course there's people that can't do basic math and of course there's idiots. Since I believe in Dariwn's Law, we should let them sort it out themselves. About the cream of the crop thing, I believe that your refering to my opinions on American universties. Well, the fact that there are more foreigners comming to America to study than anywhere else is all I have to look at to feel at ease about any university I'll be attending.

Anyhow, this is what I was kinda irked about:
Everyone knows that Canadians are God's gift to earth!
That and the pet names. I realize your joking. I'll have to admit, most Canadian's I've met in person display that very same behavior. It was just me and my little biast against our Northern neighbors really. Always sticking that leaf in our American business! :p

Other than that, not really anything more I feel I can say. I've said it.

I thought this last time this thread was up but I didn't post-

What class or curriculum is this suggesting? That my freshman year should have included, "Calculate your mileage 101?" Most of those things I learned to do in high school, or when I got a car (which was in high school). Hell, I'm a broke dude, I was able to calculate how far a tank would take me on a car that didn't have a working odometer. I not only do price per ounce calculations but number of meals per dollar calculations because I'm a poor motherfucker.

But I didn't learn these things in college, nor did I look to learn these things in college. Like I said, most of it was learned in high school (and the nuances of weight divisions from smokin'...but that's another story).

At least when pointing to American students poor geography skills we where able to go, "Now dammit, that's a subject that is being taught, the kids shouldn't suck at that. This is a problem." But I don't know what college class is supposed to cover basic function.

Your car only has to run out of gas once for you to know how far you can go in it. This study and conclusion seems a little derailed to me, and I suspect that it's the conclusion that is what seems the most off.