NationStates Jolt Archive

Now if only they can get the PETA figures that funded them.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060120/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/ecoterrorism_investigation

WASHINGTON - Eleven people were indicted in a series of arsons, claimed by the radical groups Earth Liberation Front and Animal Liberation Front, in five Western states, the Justice Department said Friday.


The 65-count indictment said the suspects are responsible for 17 incidents in California, Colorado, Oregon, Washington and Wyoming, including sabotaging a high-tension power line, in a conspiracy that dates back to 1996. The indictment was returned Thursday by a federal grand jury in Eugene, Ore., and unsealed Friday.

Now if only they can get the PETA figures that funded them.
Are you trying to get me to resort to Prayer?

Please Ghod - Let the Feds find the money trail - and if you find it humorous, (I would) let them Follow the Money back to PETA. Amen.

How very interesting. This, after I've been convinced by the Europeans that we only prosecute "brown" terrorists. Who would have thought, Europeans being wrong about us? :D

PS, I hope they nail their asses to the wall.

Meh.

Small pickles. I would be more interesting in seeing guys like Ken Lay get nailed.....

Are you trying to get me to resort to Prayer?

Please Ghod - Let the Feds find the money trail - and if you find it humorous, (I would) let them Follow the Money back to PETA. Amen.

Don't hold your breath. There are just to many money trails in Washington. Makes it hard to find just one.

How very interesting. This, after I've been convinced by the Europeans that we only prosecute "brown" terrorists. Who would have thought, Europeans being wrong about us? :D

Such a straw man. You violate human rights of brown terrorists by not prosecuting them, and instead holding them indefinitely without legal recourse.

Please, keep up.

Terrorists who fight on the side of the animals are severely deluded. How can you think that animals are more important than people if you're a person? I can understand (but staunchly disagree with) those who advocate animal rights, but what disturbed mind could contemplate endangering the lives of people as vengeance on behalf of the animals?

Alf was a cool show. They should bring it back.

Alf was a cool show. They should bring it back.

I kill me.

Alf was a cool show. They should bring it back.

:D I think that counts as a three pointer!

Using improvised incendiary devices made from milk jugs, petroleum products and homemade timers...oh, the irony! an instrument of our nonhuman cocreatures' exploitations commercialization becomes the mean by which vengeance is taken on their oppressors.

drinking white blood equals taking part in the enslavement, rape and child murder of intelligent beings.

oh, the irony! an instrument of our nonhuman cocreatures' exploitations commercialization becomes the mean by which vengeance is taken on their oppressors.

drinking white blood equals taking part in the enslavement, rape and child murder of intelligent beings.

They washed em out first. :p

these are just the latest in a sort of random round up the feds are doing. i suspect most of them will be set free eventually, but not before they make us waste a whole bunch of resources on defense organizing. cause that's how this shit operates and has for years - when they can't stop us in the streets, they tie us up in the legal process.

the evidence that i've heard seems pretty weak - shit, they were using livejournal and myspace profiles in a couple of them. mostly they are relying on a paid informant. and we all know the fibbies have never done anything wrong when it comes to political movements and infiltrators...

i liked this bit of one of the affidavits:

"Based on the apparent connection of the above described arson/attempted arsons to the anarchist movement and Eric McDavid's participation in the anarchist movement, the JTTF attempted to interview McDavid..."

that's right, he's an anarchist and these acts were committed by anarchists, therefore he committed these acts. this argument seems to come up rather frequently from the state.

anyway, solidarity! stay strong, friends.

Yes, I hope they stay strong, get real vocal and smile for the camera.

So, you advocate the attacks on honest working people and destruction on the enviroment in the name of......defending the enviroment?

So, you advocate the attacks on honest working people and destruction on the enviroment in the name of......defending the enviroment?

what the hell are you on about?

what the hell are you on about?


Burning down car dealerships in SoCal about 2 years ago.. The chemicals that burned(they used propane and also set fire to the vehicle service center) went into the air, poisoning the area around them. When the fire departmaent came to put out the raging inferno, some of the molitov cocktails that were set exploding while they were going through the buildings. Not to mention the thousands of gallons of water that were used toput out the water and then poured into the sewer system to be drained out in the the rivers and ocean, chemicals and all.

Or the assholes in Arizona that set fire to a housing developement DURING A DROUGHT. The developement was a few hours from a city, so several workers brought trailers to stay at the work site. Smoke jumpers had to risk their lives to pull these poor souls out before they were cooked i na forrest fire meant to protect the enviroment.

I'm all for ecological awareness, but this makes absolutly no sense to me.

But then again, you're not about right and wrong, are you?

I always find it ironic that these people put more pollution in to the air and ground when they set fire to SUVs or houses than would be by years of people driving them or living in them. If you're going to help the environment, you definitely don't try to make the problem worse.

I always find it ironic that these people put more pollution in to the air and ground when they set fire to SUVs or houses than would be by years of people driving them or living in them.

really? done the relevant equations, have we?

I'd say, about damned time.

really? done the relevant equations, have we?

Would you care?

Honestly, do you ever not just dismiss an opposing view or facts as nothing more than propoganda and lies from whatever your fighting against this week?

Burning down car dealerships in SoCal about 2 years ago.. The chemicals that burned(they used propane and also set fire to the vehicle service center) went into the air, poisoning the area around them....Not to mention the thousands of gallons of water that were used toput out the water and then poured into the sewer system to be drained out in the the rivers and ocean, chemicals and all.

yeah, and? a drop in the bucket, and possibly acceptable compared to the norm. done the math yet?

When the fire departmaent came to put out the raging inferno, some of the molitov cocktails that were set exploding while they were going through the buildings.

source? cause molotovs don't work like that.

Or the assholes in Arizona that set fire to a housing developement DURING A DROUGHT. The developement was a few hours from a city, so several workers brought trailers to stay at the work site. Smoke jumpers had to risk their lives to pull these poor souls out before they were cooked i na forrest fire meant to protect the enviroment.

source?

Would you care?

Honestly, do you ever not just dismiss an opposing view or facts as nothing more than propoganda and lies from whatever your fighting against this week?

pardon me, but have we met? because you seem to be making some rather interesting claims about me, and yet i don't recall ever speaking with you before.

as for me dismissing facts, well, that's just silly.

yeah, and? a drop in the bucket, and possibly acceptable compared to the norm. done the math yet?

Ends justify the means?

Whats the norm? Don't suppose you got numbers for that.



source? cause molotovs don't work like that.

They are not supposed to work like that. But, they did because the ametuer fuckheads screwed up when they made them. Not all of the bombs were properly set and didn't explode until the fire was raging as the firefighters were trying to get the blaze under control



source?


If I do, will you accept it? Its not IndyMedia.

pardon me, but have we met? because you seem to be making some rather interesting claims about me, and yet i don't recall ever speaking with you before.

Not my first time on these boards. I've seen you before.

as for me dismissing facts, well, that's just silly.

If by "silly" you mean "regular as the tides", then yes, it is indeed "silly"

Whats the norm? Don't suppose you got numbers for that.

i'm not the one claiming that these actions cause "destruction on the enviroment" or "put more pollution in to the air and ground when they set fire to SUVs or houses than would be by years of people driving them or living in them". them's is empirical claims and therefore i naturally assume that those making them have empirical evidence to justfy holding them.

They are not supposed to work like that. But, they did because the ametuer fuckheads screwed up when they made them. Not all of the bombs were properly set and didn't explode until the fire was raging as the firefighters were trying to get the blaze under control

ah, so the issue is merely other flammable things burning in a fire. in other words, exactly what one would expect when fighting a fire at a car dealership. in any case, i don't recall hearing this detail in the media coverage of the event - so still, source?

If I do, will you accept it?

depends really. you see, initial media coverage tends to jump to the conclusion that some event is an elf action. it is quite frequently revealed later that the elf had nothing to do with it. i have no knowledge of the incident you are talking about (which immediately makes me think it was never claimed by the elf, but i might just have missed it), so i can't tell what's up in this case. but a source would let me find out.

If by "silly" you mean "regular as the tides", then yes, it is indeed "silly"

funny, cause i'm probably one of the most data-oriented people on here. perhaps your memory is deficient?

Attacks claimed by the ALF in the U.S. have been carried out at:

University of Minnesota
Cornell University
The Cavel West horse rendering plant
Emory University
Carolina Biological Supply Company
Utah State University
Michigan State University
Oregon State University
Washington State University
University of Iowa
Texas Tech University
Louisiana State University

Doesn't seem to me that these idiots (ALF) have any idea. What are they trying to acheive, because they are going about it completely the wrong way. Personally I think they should all be executed. Face it, humans are the dominant species. Anyone who says otherwise has been smoking something a little too much.

Face it, humans are the dominant species. Anyone who says otherwise has been smoking something a little too much.you are a total speciecist. just wait until animal rights are turned into law. after the vegan revolution people like you will be put in reeducationcamps.

you are a total speciecist. just wait until animal rights are turned into law. after the vegan revolution people like you will be put in reeducationcamps.

Damn right I am a speciecist, proud to be one as well. If everyone was proud of what they are, the world would be a better place. The day animals have the same rights as humans, will be a sad day. I don't hate animals at all. In fact I really like most animals. Still, saying they deserve equal rights to humans is absurd.

What are they trying to acheive, because they are going about it completely the wrong way.

if i were to hazard a guess, it would be liberating animals and using sabotage to disrupt the operations of certain organizations.

what way would you suggest for achieving these goals?

if i were to hazard a guess, it would be liberating animals and using sabotage to disrupt the operations of certain organizations.

what way would you suggest for achieving these goals?
Create an army of super-soldiers and have a revolution which will lead to the New World Order.

if i were to hazard a guess, it would be liberating animals and using sabotage to disrupt the operations of certain organizations.

what way would you suggest for achieving these goals?
As much as I hate to admit it, this guy's right. Particularly in the 20th century, much political change has been brought about by using the same tactics as the current animal rights movement. Anybody who thinks it's counter-productive is deluding themleves. If society wants to crush animal rights radicalism then we need to stop deluding ourselves of the nature oif the movement. We need to realise that in order to crush them we can't always resort to the squeaky clean, morally perfect method of enforcement. These people don't fear the law and have no regard to it, so you have to respond in a similar way. I'm sure a lot of radical activists would reevaluate their choice of career if they were given a 4AM wake up call with a gun barrel in their mouth. Or if you plant evidence on them. J Edgar Hoover saw this, and because of this he successfully crushed the Black Panthers nefore they became a serious threat.

Threats of this nature require different approaches, and people need to start realising this if they want to defeat it.

Create an army of super-soldiers and have a revolution which will lead to the New World Order.

That's your answer to everything. :rolleyes:

;)

As much as I hate to admit it, this guy's right. Particularly in the 20th century, much political change has been brought about by using the same tactics as the current animal rights movement. Anybody who thinks it's counter-productive is deluding themleves. If society wants to crush animal rights radicalism then we need to stop deluding ourselves of the nature oif the movement. We need to realise that in order to crush them we can't always resort to the squeaky clean, morally perfect method of enforcement. These people don't fear the law and have no regard to it, so you have to respond in a similar way. I'm sure a lot of radical activists would reevaluate their choice of career if they were given a 4AM wake up call with a gun barrel in their mouth. Or if you plant evidence on them. J Edgar Hoover saw this, and because of this he successfully crushed the Black Panthers nefore they became a serious threat.

Threats of this nature require different approaches, and people need to start realising this if they want to defeat it.


omg....
planting evidence?
the Panthers being a serious threat?!?

I dont even know wut to say...

That's your answer to everything. :rolleyes:

;)
It works, well maybe this time it will. Just forget to keep the super-soldiers away from the water. Away!

As much as I hate to admit it, this guy's right. Particularly in the 20th century, much political change has been brought about by using the same tactics as the current animal rights movement. Anybody who thinks it's counter-productive is deluding themleves. If society wants to crush animal rights radicalism then we need to stop deluding ourselves of the nature oif the movement. We need to realise that in order to crush them we can't always resort to the squeaky clean, morally perfect method of enforcement. These people don't fear the law and have no regard to it, so you have to respond in a similar way. I'm sure a lot of radical activists would reevaluate their choice of career if they were given a 4AM wake up call with a gun barrel in their mouth. Or if you plant evidence on them. J Edgar Hoover saw this, and because of this he successfully crushed the Black Panthers nefore they became a serious threat.

Threats of this nature require different approaches, and people need to start realising this if they want to defeat it.
In other words, in order to save America, we have to turn it into the fucking Soviet Union. Brilliant!

In other words, in order to save America, we have to turn it into the fucking Soviet Union. Brilliant!
Don't pretend that these tactics are anything new. All countries in the world, including western democracies and especially including America have a time honoured tradition of using these sort of tactics. And they've worked. There was a hell of a lot of communist militancy in America throughout the 1910s and 20s. That didn't magically disppear, the authorities had to use less orthodox methods.

Don't pretend that these tactics are anything new. All countries in the world, including western democracies and especially including America have a time honoured tradition of using these sort of tactics. And they've worked. There was a hell of a lot of communist militancy in America throughout the 1910s and 20s. That didn't magically disppear, the authorities had to use less orthodox methods.
And it was still wrong. The only way those tactics "worked" was that they helped keep those in power, in power, and they kept everyone else out.

But hey, if you want to have a government that does what you described above--midnight wake-up calls at the barrel of a gun and whatnot--then you're well on your way to it now. Forgive me if I object and perhaps decide to fight back.

J Edgar Hoover saw this, and because of this he successfully crushed the Black Panthers nefore they became a serious threat.

yeah, when i think of the greatest achievements of recent history, cointelpro springs right to the front of the pack...

Well I hope to hell that PETA's money gets tracked and that the U.S. cracks down more on eco-terrorists.

These losers make environmentalists look bad. Ideologues of any flavor are bad, but violent, uninformed ideologues are even worse.

eco-terrorists

ah, nothing like buzzwords to raise the level of discourse

ah, nothing like buzzwords to raise the level of discourse


Just calling it as I see it eh? When groups like ALF and ELF decide it's ok to burn shit "For the environment" it's no better than when radical muslims run planes into towers "For Allah", not only is it wrong because they are harming other people, it also gives a bad name to other members of their sect.

Just calling it as I see it eh? When groups like ALF and ELF decide it's ok to burn shit "For the environment" it's no better than when radical muslims run planes into towers "For Allah", not only is it wrong because they are harming other people, it also gives a bad name to other members of their sect.

so in your estimation, doing something for some cause makes it terrorism?

they are terrorists, no doubt about it and thank god the government sees it that way too:Terror laws will apply to animal rights lobby

ANIMAL rights activists who glorify militant acts against economic targets and laboratories are to face prosecution under terror laws aimed at al-Qaeda supporters.

The move, confirmed last night by Charles Clarke, the Home Secretary, means that extremists convicted under the new legislation could be jailed for seven years and suspects held without charge for up to three months...http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1841452,00.html

"ANIMAL rights activists who glorify militant acts against economic targets and laboratories are to face prosecution under terror laws aimed at al-Qaeda supporters."

dude, that's just fucked up. you british types never read any of ed abbey's books then?

I really don't understand most ALF people. They just seem to be violent people looking for an excuse to hurt people - can anyone brought up around rational people seriously think doing stuff like sending razor blades infected with AIDs to scientists who experiment on animals is moral?

Frankly if they think humans to be so inferiour to animals and want to end all medical progress which involves the deaths of some dumb mice and rabbits, then they personally probably are inferiour, and should volunteer to have medical tests run on themselves as a replacement.

so in your estimation, doing something for some cause makes it terrorism?
I'd have said spreading terror through violent means "for some cause" counts as terrorism. Very much so.

I'd have said spreading terror through violent means "for some cause" counts as terrorism. Very much so.

so the police are a terrorist organization then, yes? and the military too, obviously.

ah, nothing like buzzwords to raise the level of discourse

I think you're mad it's not a ELF/ALF approved buzz-word.

so the police are a terrorist organization then, yes? and the military too, obviously.
No i'd say the police and the military are the police and the military. The clue is in the names; you see, one's called 'the police' and the other's called 'the military'. Even if they did torch laboratories and threaten scientists' children they would still be the police and the military, on account of the authority and power society gives them.
I wasn't trying to make a blanket statement about what defines terrorism in every situation, just that given the particulars of the example we were discussing, what these animal rights groups do is terrorism. I didn't think that anyone would be that desperate to exculpate these scumbags that they'd quibble over details like that.

so the police are a terrorist organization then, yes? and the military too, obviously.

Well... You know normally the police and military are there to prevent such things. If they aren't doing that, then yes, they are a terrorist organization. In all honesty, the fools of ALF are much worse than most people realize. The harm they do to science and scientists is immeasurable (Hell, even the anti-fur fuckers who let minks out are fools because they're harming the local environment and killing the minks).

Harming innocent human beings in the name of animal rights is a travisty, and counts as terrorism in my books.

I think you're mad it's not a ELF/ALF approved buzz-word.

no, i just prefer to use words clearly, particularly in political discourse.

the fact that i approve of sabotage and property destruction in certain contexts has nothing to do with my objections to the use of 'terrorist' in a sloppy manner. 'terrorism' as a concept is messy enough as it is without further levels of silliness heaped on. there is an interesting essay (http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html) by orwell you might consider reading.

update:

a paid fbi 'confidential source' involved in many of these cases (not sure if they were involved with the case mentioned in the first post) has been outed (http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/01/332735.shtml).

update:

a paid fbi 'confidential source' involved in many of these cases (not sure if they were involved with the case mentioned in the first post) has been outed (http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/01/332735.shtml).
That's too bad.

But I guess you would rather the FBI not infiltrate groups intent on doing harm. I'll call DC and have them pull their spooks out of the Aryan Nations, Klan & Militia events. OK?

That's too bad.

But I guess you would rather the FBI not infiltrate groups intent on doing harm. I'll call DC and have them pull their spooks out of the Aryan Nations, Klan & Militia events. OK?

they have some? funny, cause last i heard they didn't even bother to follow up on the list of meeting locations they found when they accidentally caught the nazi with some ready-to-use chemical weapons in texas.

but as a general point, i am in favor of abolishing the state. so yeah, disband the fbi. and definitely keep them out of my circles. most of what she did was apparently try to get in with a bunch of above ground organizations and gatherings.

I have done a little research on these nut jobs and they do cause more harm than good. They do it only because defying the law and blaming the government is "cool". As for meat eating, whats wrong with that. Compared to being a vegitarian its a little more unhealthy but its a lifestyle choice. Being either isnt morally better.

They do it only because defying the law and blaming the government is "cool".

yes, its true. the entire anarchist movement is predicated on the cool that comes with risking life imprisonment. well spotted.

Are hot beef injections in prison allowed on a vegan diet? :D