NationStates Jolt Archive

What do you think of rap music? (the modern north american kind)

What do you think of rap music? (the modern north american kind)
Superficial, egotistical, and meaningless. Any questions?

Superficial, egotistical, and meaningless. Any questions?
Some of it's ok. Most of it has become fake-gangsta pop crap.

What do you think of rap music? (the modern north american kind)

Do I have to think anything about it?
I think it was invented to annoy people with musical taste.

Some of it's ok. Most of it has become fake-gangsta pop crap.
The stuff I had in mind when I posted that was the 50cent type bullshit. I heard a band called Fort Minor recently, and I don't mind it. It's intelligent rap, so it's ok. Still nothing I'd listen to by choice, but I can tolerate it.

What do you think of rap music? (the modern north american kind)
As opposed to - what?

The Medieval Euopean kind?

The Dynastic Egyptian kind?

What other kind is there?

not a huge fan of it, but if it is in a song with a tune and has some meaning to it, i can somewhat tolerate it.

when its basicly some guy just saying a whole bunch of words trying to rhyme them, and the words dont make sense not saying anything. thats the stuff that really irratates me.

As opposed to - what?

The Medieval Euopean kind?

The Dynastic Egyptian kind?

What other kind is there?
Probably as opposed to "old school" rap.
Run DMC, De la soul, Grandmaster Flash, etc.

or as opposed to rap from other countries.

As opposed to - what?

The Medieval Euopean kind?

The Dynastic Egyptian kind?

What other kind is there?

FFS, everyone always forgets the Neanderthal rappers.
ugh, frak mung shik flook tikka brugh, mutha fucka!

Bad server! No donut!

Rap has both good and bad artists, like any other genre. The problem lies in the fact no one ever hears of any one but the bad artists, as exhibited here. Everyone's complaint is not about rap but about the rap version of bubblegum pop, aka gangsta rap, whose only purpose is to cause drama and controversy as opposed to delivering interesting music.

I have only this to say about rap: considering the effort and skill that Beethoven, et al. poured into their music, the existence of rap is nothing short of atrocious. It is truly sickening to see the greatest works of music eschewed in favor of rap. It is undoubtedly one of the worst things, of not the worst thing, ever to happen to Western music.

not a huge fan of it, but if it is in a song with a tune and has some meaning to it, i can somewhat tolerate it.

when its basicly some guy just saying a whole bunch of words trying to rhyme them, and the words dont make sense not saying anything. thats the stuff that really irratates me.
really?? I like that. no seriouslly...Massive Attack?Telepopmusik? They do that now and then I can dig it. I like it more than the aimless "i'm a pimp,shake your ass whore, I sell drugs nigga" rap

"Intelligent" rap is all right..but me dig Massive Attack and Tele` more...

I have only this to say about rap: considering the effort and skill that Beethoven, et al. poured into their music, the existence of rap is nothing short of atrocious. It is truly sickening to see the greatest works of music eschewed in favor of rap. It is undoubtedly one of the worst things, of not the worst thing, ever to happen to Western music.
That is sad sad sad good sir/lady. You are saying that the enitre ENTIRE existence of rap is quite possibly the worst thing to happen to the whole realm of Western music? What about Cher? Britany Spears? Boy-pop-bands? Hm? No, sorry friend, I think the candy-rap is terrible, but the rap genre as a whole is what I would consider average, equally good and bad, in the sphere of western music.

It ranks above alot of pop (as it actually has some feeling in it) but below all decent music that takes more than five minutes to come up with...

It ranks above alot of pop (as it actually has some feeling in it) but below all decent music that takes more than five minutes to come up with...
Complex composition does not always equate to good music.

rap is good though it has suffered a sharp decline since 2000 in quality I think the albums slim shady and martial matters was raps high point both by my once favourite artist (whose wasn’t he)

That is sad sad sad good sir/lady. You are saying that the enitre ENTIRE existence of rap is quite possibly the worst thing to happen to the whole realm of Western music? What about Cher? Britany Spears? Boy-pop-bands? Hm? No, sorry friend, I think the candy-rap is terrible, but the rap genre as a whole is what I would consider average, equally good and bad, in the sphere of western music.

True, that is a good point.

rap is good though it has suffered a sharp decline since 2000 in quality I think the albums slim shady and martial matters was raps high point both by my once favourite artist (whose wasn’t he)

Who?

rap is good though it has suffered a sharp decline since 2000 in quality I think the albums slim shady and martial matters was raps high point both by my once favourite artist (whose wasn’t he)
Eminem/Marshall Mathers toed the line between junk and stuff worth listening to.

Eminem/Marshall Mathers toed the line between junk and stuff worth listening to.
Lose Yourself kicked ass, other than that, I'd throw his stuff in with the other 'pointless rap'

Lose Yourself kicked ass, other than that, I'd throw his stuff in with the other 'pointless rap'
Some of his newer stuff is good, alot deeper than what can be found on the Slim Shady LP and most of the Marshall Mathers LP.

Complex composition does not always equate to good music.

True, Schoenberg isn't all that appealing and it's scary how far you can get with three chords, but I prefer music that actually requires skill to make and perform. I find it much more interesting.

True, Schoenberg isn't all that appealing and it's scary how far you can get with three chords, but I prefer music that actually requires skill to make and perform. I find it much more interesting.
It takes skill to walk around upright without falling down on your ass. It takes talent to pull off what even the worst rappers do, even more talent if you have a group that uses turntables.

What do you think of rap music? (the modern north american kind)
pretty dull.

i tend not to hear lyrics in songs (just part of the general noise to me... at least till i've heard it a few times) so the whole 'rapping' thing doesn't appeal to me. and the music is generally boring, uninspired, and just lacking totally in character or spirit - at the very least that's true of modern pop-rap. if i want to listen to something with a good beat i'll listen to drum and bass thank you.

overall verdict: meh *shrugs*

I have only this to say about rap: considering the effort and skill that Beethoven, et al. poured into their music, the existence of rap is nothing short of atrocious. It is truly sickening to see the greatest works of music eschewed in favor of rap. It is undoubtedly one of the worst things, of not the worst thing, ever to happen to Western music.

Yeah, how dare them uppity darkies make their own music, when really they should be sitting in the parlour sucking at the cold dead teat of white European culture and passively consuming that which is fed to them.

Nauseatingly ostenatious, crass, mindless and inaccessible bilge.

Some of his newer stuff is good, alot deeper than what can be found on the Slim Shady LP and most of the Marshall Mathers LP.

:eek: what about the simple tune of "my name is" or "criminal" I think the deeper music is worse since it isn't the simple catchy tune that it used to be also it has more to do with fame now which as you may know not allot of people can relate too

Yeah, how dare them uppity darkies make their own music, when really they should be sitting in the parlour sucking at the cold dead teat of white European culture and passively consuming that which is fed to them.
oh leave the cultural considerations aside and just focus on what it takes to make the music.

rap: some skill, decent lyrics-writing, style and being able to talk

classical music: ability to hear a whole orchestra in your head, musical genius, and 300+ years ago transcribe music that is still thought of as... well, "classic"

even rock is better than rap in that respect cos at least the musicians actually have to be able to play an instrument and work together as a band to make music, not just talk while someone else spins someone else's record.

Nauseatingly ostenatious, crass, mindless and inaccessible bilge.
Is it just me, or does anyone else see all his points as ridiculous, trolly tripe? If the thread is about welfare, he goes off about how the governemnt shouldn't do anything and people should be responsible for themselves - like, if they are poor, it is their own fault, inarguably. Now we have a thread about rap and he goes straight for the juggular in a similar fashion.

You are just a one line train eh?

Yeah, how dare them uppity darkies make their own music, when really they should be sitting in the parlour sucking at the cold dead teat of white European culture and passively consuming that which is fed to them.

That "cold dead teat" (nice analogy:) ) that still gives rise to such literature as Fry, Ruiz Zafon and Pratchett, thatproduces innovative and retrospective music both in a classical and contemporary context, and that remains the percieved, justifiably, paragon of cultural enlightenment.

Beethoven, Bach and the Beatles, or Fiddy cent, Jay-Z and So Solid Crew?

Luther King or Churchill?

Malcolm X or Machiavelli?

Da Vinci, Botticeli, Monet and Manet, or, no, no "darky" competant artists....

True, Schoenberg isn't all that appealing and it's scary how far you can get with three chords, but I prefer music that actually requires skill to make and perform. I find it much more interesting.

Good rap is poetry, pure and simple. Lyrical genius is required to make a flowing rhyme that sounds good and says something of value. Like pretty much any other genre, the good rap is just hidden in an ugly mess of sub-par garbage that isn't worth listening to. I'm sure there were plenty of mediocre composers in the past that we don't bother knowing anymore for the same reasons.

Is it just me, or does anyone else see all his points as ridiculous, trolly tripe? If the thread is about welfare, he goes off about how the governemnt shouldn't do anything and people should be responsible for themselves - like, if they are poor, it is their own fault, inarguably. Now we have a thread about rap and he goes straight for the juggular in a similar fashion.

You are just a one line train eh?

Not overly, we have actually argued why welfare, in its most extnsive form, is irresponsible, however for the most part I frankly cannot be bothere to explain my reasoning fully, every time.

I generally assume readers will draw inferences from my concise posts, however thankyou for the "constructive" criticism, I will now endeavour to make your brain's life as easy as possible.

Beethoven, Bach and the Beatles, or Fiddy cent, Jay-Z and So Solid Crew?

...or Johnson, Morganfield, Coltrane, Davis, Saddler or Ridenhour.

Yeah, how dare them uppity darkies make their own music, when really they should be sitting in the parlour sucking at the cold dead teat of white European culture and passively consuming that which is fed to them.

Race has nothing to do with it. Rappers could be whiter than snow and rap would still suck. Note that my criticism was directed specifically at rap and not other forms of music associated with black culture (jazz and blues, for example). I am no less critical of the quintessentially white genre of country music (just as bad, if not worse than rap).

...or Johnson, Morganfield, Coltrane, Davis, Saddler or Ridenhour.

This is a rap discussion, Jazz is irrefutably brilliant, however Rap, irrespective of the manner in which it began, is now every inch a cliched as "pop", with a distinct lack of new thematic expression and vocabulary, and a stagnant, financially motivated group of artists.

Race has nothing to do with it. Rappers could be whiter than snow and rap would still suck. Note that my criticism was directed specifically at rap and not other forms of music associated with black culture (jazz and blues, for example). I am no less critical of the quintessentially white genre of country music (just as bad, if not worse than rap).

So, your problem with rap is what, exactly? That it is too simplistic? Hardly, or you'd be branding rock and folk as equally vile.

So, your problem with rap is what, exactly? That it is too simplistic? Hardly, or you'd be branding rock and folk as equally vile.

That's part of it, and yes, I do criticize rock and roll for simplicity.

This is a rap discussion, Jazz is irrefutably brilliant, however Rap, irrespective of the manner in which it began, is now every inch a cliched as "pop", with a distinct lack of new thematic expression and vocabulary, and a stagnant, financially motivated group of artists.

Indeed it is: in your defence of what I called a dead culture you named two dead composers and a defunct band.

Jazz itself has gone through a great many peaks and troughs and has produced some amazing pieces during the peaks. I can, personally, think of no truly great new jazz pieces from the last twenty years: is it too suffering from a "distinct lack of new thematic expression and vocabulary, and a stagnant, financially motivated group of artists."

It seems to me that rap is currently in something of a trough: whether it will rise again from its current relative mediocrity is a different question.

Yeah, how dare them uppity darkies make their own music, when really they should be sitting in the parlour sucking at the cold dead teat of white European culture and passively consuming that which is fed to them.

A few decades ago, they did do that -- it was called Big Band, and Jazz. They had real talent -- Louis Armstrong, Sammy Davis Jr, etc -- quite amazing. Stevey Wonder continued the swing, although venturing to rock.

But rap?

Just the fact the lyrics are testy isn't the most of it -- but the fact that it is so blatantly obvious about its degrading material, and the fact people glorify it. "Oh, but it's black culture?" Really? gansta rap, if that's reflective of blacks, makes me think a whole lot less about that race. Of course, I know better, but some don't.

But I digress.

So, how is rap, anyways? Well, let's take a look at this great Gangsta Love Song -- it will surely bring you to tears; it's really touching.

The game got switched on some Ludacris shit
So all y'all can suck my dick, BEOTCH!!


I make niggas eat dirt and fart dust
Then give you a eighty-dollar gift certificate to Pussies R' Us

I've got ho's in different area codes (area, area codes ... codes)

Some great music right there. >.>

Bernard Goldberg really put it best: "When it comes to gangsta rap and the glorification of ignorance, it's one big giant tie for last place!"



Oh, and on a side-note: You're right, I didn't edit anything. I'm not going to blotch out offensive words: You know what they are whether I blotch them or not, I'm not gonna insult your intelligence.

That's part of it, and yes, I do criticize rock and roll for simplicity.

And what of the minimalists works of Glass and Reich and their ilk?

So, how is rap, anyways? Well, let's take a look at this great Gangsta Love Song -- it will surely bring you to tears; it's really touching.

The game got switched on some Ludacris shit
So all y'all can suck my dick, BEOTCH!!


I make niggas eat dirt and fart dust
Then give you a eighty-dollar gift certificate to Pussies R' Us

I've got ho's in different area codes (area, area codes ... codes)

Some great music right there. >.>

Bernard Goldberg really put it best: "When it comes to gangsta rap and the glorification of ignorance, it's one big giant tie for last place!"

Quite so, another thing I hate about it.

And what of the minimalists works of Glass and Reich and their ilk?

From what little I've heard, which is admittedly very little, I really don't like their work. I'm simply not too familiar with it, though.

Indeed it is: in your defence of what I called a dead culture you named two dead composers and a defunct band.

Jazz itself has gone through a great many peaks and troughs and has produced some amazing pieces during the peaks. I can, personally, think of no truly great new jazz pieces from the last twenty years: is it too suffering from a "distinct lack of new thematic expression and vocabulary, and a stagnant, financially motivated group of artists."

It seems to me that rap is currently in something of a trough: whether it will rise again from its current relative mediocrity is a different question.

If you insist;
Arctic Monkeys
FFAF
Biffy Clyro
Sex Pistols
BFMV
Bloc Party

All contemporary and innovative European, well British, Europop and Eurorap are awful, artists.

Incidentally, Hip Hop is excellent, notably NWO and Public Enemy, it is merely Rap I dare to criticise, for glorifying thoroughly deplorable concepts and social conventions, and inciting mindless, automaton violence as a social norm.

From what little I've heard, which is admittedly very little, I hate their work.

So the more complex the music, the better?

Incidentally, Hip Hop is excellent, notably NWO and Public Enemy, it is merely Rap I dare to criticise, for glorifying thoroughly deplorable concepts and social conventions, and inciting mindless, automaton violence as a social norm.

Since when were Public Enemy not a rap group?

Since when were Public Enemy not a rap group?

Not a "modern" rap group as such, in terms of 21st century rap. Anyway, a friend of mine into such music attests to their being "Hip Hop", not "rap", but that may be him.

So the more complex the music, the better?

Complexity certainly helps, though it isn't the sole factor in quality.

Not a "modern" rap group as such, in terms of 21st century rap. Anyway, a friend of mine into such music attests to their being "Hip Hop", not "rap", but that may be him.

More of a 'modern' rap group than the Sex Pistols are a modern rock group (PE having released two LPs since 2000). As to whether they are a 'modern rap' group is a different question.

I have mixed feelings about rap.

i can not stand the superfical materialistic stuff like grillz by nelly

and I have yet to find a white rapper i enjoy. But I love rap that combines different vocal qualities (not womens' voices through a synthesizer ><) with original music that expresses someones emotion. its not just about money, but expression (Kanye West's "All Fall Down" comes to mind).

Rap was good until september 16 1996 when Tupac Amaru Shakur was killed and ok till march 1997 when the notorious BIG was wacked and died december 2003 when Jam Master Jay was killed and who doesn't like any rap/ hip hop can eat shit:mp5:

RIP:(
Eazy-E (Eric Wright)
Big L
Ol' Dirty Bastard
Tupac Shakur
Biggie Smalls (Christopher Wallace)
Jam Master Jay
Big Pun
MC Hammer's Bank Account
________________________
Lost but not forgotten

RIP:(
....
MC Hammer's Bank Account

Heh, I found that funny. :D

there are some good underground rap groups:

Atmosphere

Mars ILL

Brother Ali

Listener

etc.

it boils down to the greater majority of people are stupid, so it's more effective to make stupid music

it boils down to the greater majority of people are stupid, so it's more effective to make stupid music
Heh. I like that answer.

Aesop Rock. That's all that need be said.

Heh. I like that answer.

As do I. :)

Superficial, egotistical, and meaningless. Any questions?

You mean, like the rest of mainstream North American culture? People blame rap for a lot of problems, but it's only mirroring the larger aspects of the culture that it grew out of.

A few decades ago, they did do that -- it was called Big Band, and Jazz. They had real talent -- Louis Armstrong, Sammy Davis Jr, etc -- quite amazing. Stevey Wonder continued the swing, although venturing to rock.

But rap?

Just the fact the lyrics are testy isn't the most of it -- but the fact that it is so blatantly obvious about its degrading material, and the fact people glorify it. "Oh, but it's black culture?" Really? gansta rap, if that's reflective of blacks, makes me think a whole lot less about that race. Of course, I know better, but some don't.

But I digress.

So, how is rap, anyways? Well, let's take a look at this great Gangsta Love Song -- it will surely bring you to tears; it's really touching.

The game got switched on some Ludacris shit
So all y'all can suck my dick, BEOTCH!!


I make niggas eat dirt and fart dust
Then give you a eighty-dollar gift certificate to Pussies R' Us

I've got ho's in different area codes (area, area codes ... codes)

Some great music right there. >.>

Bernard Goldberg really put it best: "When it comes to gangsta rap and the glorification of ignorance, it's one big giant tie for last place!"



Oh, and on a side-note: You're right, I didn't edit anything. I'm not going to blotch out offensive words: You know what they are whether I blotch them or not, I'm not gonna insult your intelligence.

Really, is most other popular modern music much better? You know that rap artists got the idea of putting scantily clad women in their videos from rock stars, right?

You mean, like the rest of mainstream North American culture? People blame rap for a lot of problems, but it's only mirroring the larger aspects of the culture that it grew out of.

I agree wholeheartedly - see above consensus on general human stupidity. :)

Really, is most other popular modern music much better?
lyrically, yes.

Really, is most other popular modern music much better? You know that rap artists got the idea of putting scantily clad women in their videos from rock stars, right?

It certainly isn't any better. You don't see classical music with scantily clad women, though.

It certainly isn't any better. You don't see classical music with scantily clad women, though.

No you don't, but that's not really comparable. We're talking about modern mainstream music here.

Can't stand most of it, it's just well-marketed commercial crap. There are a few exceptions to this, though.

Is We Be Burnin' rap?

It certainly isn't any better. You don't see classical music with scantily clad women, though.

coughSalomecough.

Oh god, a rap topic in NS is like an anti southern rap topic in the ill community (a decent rap and hip hop forum, they control topics by making it so you need a certain amount of posts to be able to start your own topics). Anyways rap is not only ok, but I love it. Generally rap today has now been degenerated to wealth and power but this is one of the effects of capitalism. Another thing about rap is that most rap fans worth their salt will despise 50 for his egotisical attitude, him deserting the hood unless it is deemed profitable and finally his constant need for beefs. God he is the G.W.B of rap.

I don't have the time or energy to quote every dumbass comment that's been posted so I'll just fire off a few thoughts that occurred while reading this-


First and foremost-Anyone who has heard a rhythm-less uncle try and rap or a comedian try or anything like that knows that rap is in fact a skill and talent and not just 'talking.' That is a ridiculous reduction that has no foundation in reality. "Anyone" can rap in the same way that "anyone" can sing-sure, but not very well.

On the subject of difficulty-again, not as easy as it sounds. And further, as Art Blakey used to tell his young charges in the Jazz Messengers when they'd turn in complex new pieces, "Anyone can write something no one can play. It takes talent to write something people want to hear." I'd add to that, but I'll let Mr. Blakey's words soak in.

If all you've heard of rap is what you see for ten seconds before you flip the channel on MTV2 or what pours out of a car in a show that has caricatures of urban youth in it, you have no right and certainly not enough information on the subject of rap to make an informed judgement. As has been pointed out many times here, what gets airplay shouldn't be representative-that criteria tends to make all forms look bad.

Jazz did not die 20 years ago. I'm not a fan of him, but Charlie Hunter has released some well received work, Wynton Marsalis released Blood on the Fields which is up there with Charles Mingus' Epitaph, Medeski Martin and Wood have released some good albums, along with Sex Mob. Pharaoh Sanders continues to record and tour and never becomes stagnant. The World Saxophone Quartet, Chris Potter, Terence Blanchard (who was the person who told me the Blakey anecdote) etc etc.

This is probably too long for "it is te h suxors" people to read anyway, so I'll let it go.

I'll end with this-
Wu-TANG!!!

Oh god, a rap topic in NS is like an anti southern rap topic in the ill community (a decent rap and hip hop forum, they control topics by making it so you need a certain amount of posts to be able to start your own topics). Anyways rap is not only ok, but I love it. Generally rap today has now been degenerated to wealth and power but this is one of the effects of capitalism. Another thing about rap is that most rap fans worth their salt will despise 50 for his egotisical attitude, him deserting the hood unless it is deemed profitable and finally his constant need for beefs. God he is the G.W.B of rap.

Yes, blame capitalism for it's general horridness. :rolleyes:

And Cannot think of a name, For the most part I do not like rap. Some of the older songs I found at least amusing, if not to my listening pleasure (Baby got Back and Tootsie Roll, being examples).

Oh, and I agree with you on the complexity part. After all, "Perfection is not achieved when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." However, complex songs are fun to listen to, if the preformer can actually do it.

I don't have the time or energy to quote every dumbass comment that's been posted so I'll just fire off a few thoughts that occurred while reading this-

First and foremost-Anyone who has heard a rhythm-less uncle try and rap or a comedian try or anything like that knows that rap is in fact a skill and talent and not just 'talking.' That is a ridiculous reduction that has no foundation in reality. "Anyone" can rap in the same way that "anyone" can sing-sure, but not very well.

If all you've heard of rap is what you see for ten seconds before you flip the channel on MTV2 or what pours out of a car in a show that has caricatures of urban youth in it, you have no right and certainly not enough information on the subject of rap to make an informed judgement. As has been pointed out many times here, what gets airplay shouldn't be representative-that criteria tends to make all forms look bad.

This is probably too long for "it is te h suxors" people to read anyway, so I'll let it go.

I'll end with this-
Wu-TANG!!!
I'd still say that it takes more skill to sing well than it does to rap well. And I'd say it definitely takes more skill to play guitar, bass, etc and have them all work together than it does to make loud, sickeningly repetitive beats and a three-note keyboard or computer sound repeating over and over...

I'd still say that it takes more skill to sing well than it does to rap well. And I'd say it definitely takes more skill to play guitar, bass, etc and have them all work together than it does to make loud, sickeningly repetitive beats and a three-note keyboard or computer sound repeating over and over...

I agree with you wholeheartedly, however, you can't deny that at least trying to make it rhyme takes talent.

I'd still say that it takes more skill to sing well than it does to rap well. And I'd say it definitely takes more skill to play guitar, bass, etc and have them all work together than it does to make loud, sickeningly repetitive beats and a three-note keyboard or computer sound repeating over and over...

Rap's a performance, so like any other performance, you need to break it down to look at it properly; can't just say 'rap's too simplistic' etc.

The vocal skills required to perform rap... very respectable, very difficult to pick up. A lot of it's analogous to learning to sing, to inject meaning into short phrases, but the improvisation... that's another dimension, one that's _really_ special. See jazz. Musical skills wildly vary; it comes across as an afterthought, even, to some.

More importantly, rap as art; what does it reflect? What does it say to its audience? What emotions does it stimulate or articulate - what's rap's emotional and intellectual range, so to speak?

I'd question rap as art; I don't think it's got a lot of power to it as music, it's got a very limited emotional palatte, and it never seems to say anything new - it's not a form that can evoke or stimulate you in a variety of ways. Its range is fairly limited, too much of a one trick pony.

It certainly isn't any better. You don't see classical music with scantily clad women, though.

Yes you do. I do anyway. It's called Opera.

I'd still say that it takes more skill to sing well than it does to rap well. And I'd say it definitely takes more skill to play guitar, bass, etc and have them all work together than it does to make loud, sickeningly repetitive beats and a three-note keyboard or computer sound repeating over and over...
It takes more to play 'The Black Page' than to do any of that, but it doesn't make 'The Black Page' listenable.

Again, with the word of Art Blakey-
"Anyone can write something no one can play. It takes talent to write something that sounds good."

If you used difficulty as your measuring stick for music, you wouldn't have stopped at rock, and you'd be using a very superficial method to rate it.

Elgesh']
I'd question rap as art; I don't think it's got a lot of power to it as music, it's got a very limited emotional palatte, and it never seems to say anything new - it's not a form that can evoke or stimulate you in a variety of ways. Its range is fairly limited, too much of a one trick pony.
Then you fail to differentiate the various types of rap. There is gangsta rap, which is what has sadly become the mainstream for rap despite being the worst form, then there is free-style, then there is the rest. The rest is the thing you rarely hear. It is composed of different styles and themes as well though.

You complain it has a limited emotional palette. Bullshit. Well, let me take that back. "Dirt Off Your Shoulder" by Jay-Z isn't much different in emotion than "Baby Got Back" by Sir Mix-a-Lot; however, you can't tell me either are remotely similar to "Cop Killer" by Ice T. And what about Eminem's "Like Toy Soldiers" or Nas' "I Think I Can"? If you want an example of free-style, there is Jurassic 5's "D.D.T" Then what about Run-DMC or the Roots?

To insist that rap is a one trick pony is to say all types of rock are the same and are a one trick pony. Run-DMC is not Jay-Z is not DMX in the same manner that Queen is not Aerosmith is not some other big name.

As opposed to - what?

The Medieval Euopean kind?

The Dynastic Egyptian kind?

What other kind is there?

As opposed to the authentic, tribal african kind

Yes you do. I do anyway. It's called Opera.
Opera women are NOT scantily clad (thank god)

I will admit that I do listen to rap music, and tending to go towards the side of mainstream bullshit. Not completely mainstream bullshit like Ludacris (2002 to now) or 50 Cent (after Get Rich or Die Tryin), but still stuff that you might not call intelligent either. Some can be somewhat intelligent at times, other times not even close.

But, the point is this. To me, it sounds good. It's entertainment. Sometimes, I don't even pay attention to the lyrics and just hear the beat, the flow, the background production. (Unless it's Cam'Ron/Dipset, no matter how well production is, that is just pure crap lyrically.)

I come from a rural area in the Northeastern U.S., I'm white, I have well above average intelligence. I listen to rap, but that doesn't make me ignorant or suckered into being a consumerist pawn. I just buy and listen what sounds good to me.

Just a side note, 50 Cent's career has gone to hell. He sold out lyrically, to his roots, pretty much everything... in order to sell records to 17 year old white kids in the suburbs: his new next door neighbors. (Not neccessarily in Farmington, but just the suburbs in general)

You complain it has a limited emotional palette. Bullshit. Well, let me take that back. "Dirt Off Your Shoulder" by Jay-Z isn't much different in emotion than "Baby Got Back" by Sir Mix-a-Lot; however, you can't tell me either are remotely similar to "Cop Killer" by Ice T. And what about Eminem's "Like Toy Soldiers" or Nas' "I Think I Can"? If you want an example of free-style, there is Jurassic 5's "D.D.T" Then what about Run-DMC or the Roots?.

If you're into xyz, of course you'll appreciate its nuances more than a disinterested observer :) With respect though, I just don't hear what you hear (you would not believe how much I've had to sit through looking after my wee brother and cousins, growing up!); I dunno what to tell you, guy :confused:

Elgesh']
More importantly, rap as art; what does it reflect? What does it say to its audience? What emotions does it stimulate or articulate - what's rap's emotional and intellectual range, so to speak?

I'd question rap as art; I don't think it's got a lot of power to it as music, it's got a very limited emotional palatte, and it never seems to say anything new - it's not a form that can evoke or stimulate you in a variety of ways. Its range is fairly limited, too much of a one trick pony.

Hip Hop, Rap, Raggaeton, and other forms of Urban Music are very important culturally. As far as what they reflect, they reflect the life and experiences of those who rap. If you are speaking only of songs like Nelly's new gem "Grillz" (aka the worst song in history) then yes, it is easy to consider Rap vapid and dull. But I disagree with others who say that you need to venture underground to discover real talent and messages. I mean, there are mainstream artists who I believe have really rallied people around certain issues. NWA brought the realities of South Central LA to the frilly pink bedrooms of suburban white teenagers named Brittany. The conflicts between East and West coasts as well as artists involvment in gang related violence caused middle aged soccer moms to think about what an adolesence in the projects would mean for their children. Hip Hop and Rap reflect an entire culture within a greater geographic culture...an economic and social culture that existed beneath mainstream radar for a long time. And now it has been commercialized and assimilated into mainstream culture, and like any genre, will suffer because of that. Drugs, violence, death, poverty, and oppression are only so glamorous.

While I agree that Rap is often very degrading to women, I believe that we often purposefully ignore those times when it isn't. Am I the only one who cried a little when I saw the video for Common's "Come Close" -- I'm usually not so sappy...but it was so sweet.

There is actually a good amount of rap, even some of it mainstream, that promotes positive messages. Nelly? 50 Cent? They're crap and everyone knows that.

But every now and then, when I'm in da club, I want a song about shaking my ass. And thats not a crime, and thats not deplorable.

Opera women are NOT scantily clad (thank god)

Actually, often, they are quite scanitily clad.

I feel the need to interrogate this notion of 'more talent' and 'less talent,' as it is being tossed about quite a bit without an established measure, as if 'talent' is a easily measurable reservoir that can be compared across disciplines. This seems terribly arrogant (granting that my Blakey quote falls into the same trap) to be able to empiracly declare the quality of talent in this manner.

What constitutes 'more talent'? Some seem to equate that to difficulty, but that seems like a poor scale. I can practice a Paganini piece and get it right. It's difficult, it might take me a long time, but I'll be able to do it. Would you buy a recording of me doing it? Probably not, it's not the difficulty of the performance that's going to make the difference but the quality of the execution. During my time as a music major (I got my AA then switched streams) there where plenty of technically proficient players who sat in third chairs in favor of players who had to work harder at reading a piece but played it better.

Technical proficiency can be learned. Is that really talent?

What measure are you using to say that this act takes 'more talent' than that act? What unit do you use to measure talent that you can so clearly read that dipstick? Can you do it? And I mean well? Is that a good gauge (I would actually argue that it is not)?

Is it time spent? Some composers work incredibly fast. Orchestration is a formula and isn't as painstaking as you'd think. Even intricate ones work with in a set of rules and even though they are broken often you do that because you know what's going to happen. If I spent 40 years working on a piece would it be intrinsically more talented than a composer who was able to write a canon of work in that time?

As such, I dismiss the argument of 'more' or 'less' talent as being superficial and without context.

Elgesh']If you're into xyz, of course you'll appreciate its nuances more than a disinterested observer :) With respect though, I just don't hear what you hear (you would not believe how much I've had to sit through looking after my wee brother and cousins, growing up!); I dunno what to tell you, guy :confused:
Have you listened to all or even any of those songs? They are inherently different, the differences arn't little nuances. It is like saying the differences between Linkin Park and Bad Religion are "little nuances."

Rap is generally rather bland and uninteresting. What gets on my nerves much more is the excessively violent, shallow, and arrogant attitude surrounding (most of) it.

If the rap artist uses intelligent lyrics, more power to him. I'm not fond of the style, but at least they'd have my respect. It's the 'gangsta rap' advocating ignorance, pointless violence, and materialism that I hold utter contempt for.

Hip Hop, Rap, Raggaeton, and other forms of Urban Music are very important culturally. As far as what they reflect, they reflect the life and experiences of those who rap. If you are speaking only of songs like Nelly's new gem "Grillz" (aka the worst song in history) then yes, it is easy to consider Rap vapid and dull. But I disagree with others who say that you need to venture underground to discover real talent and messages. I mean, there are mainstream artists who I believe have really rallied people around certain issues. NWA brought the realities of South Central LA to the frilly pink bedrooms of suburban white teenagers named Brittany. The conflicts between East and West coasts as well as artists involvment in gang related violence caused middle aged soccer moms to think about what an adolesence in the projects would mean for their children. Hip Hop and Rap reflect an entire culture within a greater geographic culture...an economic and social culture that existed beneath mainstream radar for a long time. And now it has been commercialized and assimilated into mainstream culture, and like any genre, will suffer because of that. Drugs, violence, death, poverty, and oppression are only so glamorous.

While I agree that Rap is often very degrading to women, I believe that we often purposefully ignore those times when it isn't. Am I the only one who cried a little when I saw the video for Common's "Come Close" -- I'm usually not so sappy...but it was so sweet.

There is actually a good amount of rap, even some of it mainstream, that promotes positive messages. Nelly? 50 Cent? They're crap and everyone knows that.

But every now and then, when I'm in da club, I want a song about shaking my ass. And thats not a crime, and thats not deplorable.

Very, vrey well said. I agree 100%.

Something else that has suddenly stuck in my craw-

What is the bold and challenging subject matter that people are finding in pop music that they make such harsh comparisons?

That people want to Rock and Roll all night? And party ev-er-y day? That they like Girls Girls Girls? That are Sweet Cherry Pie? Kinda picking on cheesy metal there for a second...but-Wanting to Sex You Up? Want your sex?

Or glancing at the top 100, because at this point it's painfully clear I haven't listened to the radio in a long while...

That we should 'stick it out,' not 'forget about us.' That we should 'get together' or 'get back together' or break up or not break up or touch each other funny, or...

Where's this deep content that is exclusively lacking in rap? Or is it, like anything else, vapidness is across the board and therefore not a good exclusive criticism of rap.

Now you'll argue that there are socially conscious rock songs by groups like Bad Religon or the Dead Kennedys. I see that and call it with Public Enemy and Arrested Development.

So the content argument seems a little empty to me. (See what I did there?)

I started to get into rap when I turned 30 or so (I like to call it my mid-life crisis music). I have been missing out. There are some really good rappers out there and quite a few have some great messages in their songs. Just read the lyrics to 2pac's Changes or Nas' One Mic. There are many other examples. I agree with allcoolnames - there is a lack of substance to much of the lyrics you hear in rock and pop songs but it doesn't necessarily stop me from listening. Stop hatin', smoke a blunt and give it a shot. For a good transition album downloand the Jay-Z/Beatles mash-up album by DJ Dangermouse - The Grey Album. It is a mix of Jay-Z's Black Album and The Beatles' White Album.
http://www.illegal-art.org/audio/grey.html

Where's this deep content that is exclusively lacking in rap? Or is it, like anything else, vapidness is across the board and therefore not a good exclusive criticism of rap.



This is true. However, Rap is just as guilty of shallow content as all mainstream music. And I hate it, just as I hate most mainstream music. However, Rap sounds worse to me. Then there's also the degradation of women thing. Not all Rap is shallow or degrading to women, though. I do have respect for the exceptions. All of it sounds like crap to me, though.

This is true. However, Rap is just as guilty of shallow content as all mainstream music. And I hate it, just as I hate most mainstream music. However, Rap sounds worse to me. Then there's also the degradation of women thing. Not all Rap is shallow or degrading to women, though. I do have respect for the exceptions. All of it sounds like crap to me, though.
Should they be Girls Girls Girls, or Sweet Cherry Pie? Better off if they spanked fan girls with a fish? It's not exclusive to rap and its presence in rap is overblown, especially when taken in context of the rest of pop music and culture in general. It's a general problem and to assign it to rap is to ignore its prevelence every where else in the popular landscape.

I like old-school rap...or at least early 90's rap...

Public Enemy, Cypress Hill, Ice T, NWA....

Not much more than that. I'm open to it, though, but it seems to be one of those things (a bit like punk actually) that is only rarely done exceptionally well.

What do you think of rap music? (the modern north american kind)

The best I can say about it is that it beats the snot out of the Japanese wanna be gangsta rappers, who are just embarassing.

I do like old school rap - Run DMC, Beasty Boys, Public Enemy, and NWA.

What do you think of rap music? (the modern north american kind)

Rap, Hip-Hop and R'n'B has steadily become the worst, most talentless music there is available. It has been constantly declining for years, it no longer has any artistical value, and on top of that, it doesn't sound good either. It's cusp of crapness peaked at the MTV Music Awards when Lil Bow Wow and Paris Hilton had a contest to see who had the more expensive 'bling-bling' on.