NationStates Jolt Archive

The commies are at it again! Some might see it as an embarassment, that a small and evil country is at the lead in scientific research. How could they get so far without proper capitalism?

wormhole (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4583668.stm)

Imagine what a country with real power could achieve, in the medical field or others.

Good for them :D

Arrrr, the superiority of the planned economy, it's amazing what a society can do when everyone isn't just thinking about what they can get out it, when everything isn't a business enterprise. Even when the whole capitalist world is trying to starve you out because your economic system isn't devised towards corporate greed and mass poverty.

To be fair though...the provision of normal medical services (and indeed other services) to everyday people is quite poor, compared to Western Countries. Better though probably than that of its neighbours.

To be fair though...the provision of normal medical services (and indeed other services) to everyday people is quite poor, compared to Western Countries. Better though probably than that of its neighbours.

Indeed indeed. That will probably change if they find buyers for their knowledge. Then again, who wants to have his cancer cured by a commie doctor....:D

I think it's a good new, 'cause it proves that's possible to build an alternative to capitalism, USSR fall has convinced many, even you, that capitalism is the only way to a better life. Globalization can be managed in a cooperative way.;)

To be fair though...the provision of normal medical services (and indeed other services) to everyday people is quite poor, compared to Western Countries. Better though probably than that of its neighbours.

Life Expectancy

Cuba

total population: 77.23 years
male: 74.94 years
female: 79.65 years (2005 est.)

USA

total population: 77.71 years
male: 74.89 years
female: 80.67 years (2005 est.)

Infant Mortality

Cuba

total: 6.33 deaths/1,000 live births
male: 7.11 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 5.5 deaths/1,000 live births (2005 est.)

USA

total: 6.5 deaths/1,000 live births
male: 7.17 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 5.8 deaths/1,000 live births (2005 est.)

Source: CIA World Factbook (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html) (admittedly a publication heavily biased towards Cuba. ;))

I'm not much of a Castro fan, but I give credit where credit is due.

yeah, good 4 them

I'm not much of a Castro fan, but I give credit where credit is due.
Hmmm...interesting.

I'll leave it to NeoCon-Libertarians and Busheviks to find something wrong with it. I'll be watching with great interest. ;)

excellent.
i think the thing to take away from it is this quote:

"You are free to interview any of them.

"We are highly motivated, not by money and commercial profit, but by a commitment to saving lives. We have not lost any of them. Nobody has defected to the US."


so many staunch capitalists argue that without financial incentive to do something, nothing will get done. i have long disagreed with this, and here is, at least, some testimonial to that arguement :)


also, communism doesn't have to run on old 'heavy industry' as with the USSR. it doesn't have to kill off intellectuals - a la Mao. these are just common conceptions of the ideal in practice (sort of... technically its all just socialism) and specific reigimes. a 'knowlege-based' economy sounds highly desirable. i would assume that public education is a high priority for Castro as well?

and this
Moreover, some hospital wings have been taken over and some hotels have been closed to accommodate an influx of eye-surgery patients, following last September's launch of 'Operation Miracle' which set out to restore the eyesight of an estimated 6 million poor people in Latin America and the Caribbean who were suffering from cataracts and other debilitating eye-diseases.
is just nice :)

While a well balanced story, why does my girl cousin in Cuba who works for a government company office with computers and has a job better than mine drive a bycycle to work and asks me to send her hard currency money, eyeglasses and medicen?

Since Cuba trades with the European Union Nations,
Canada, Australia, New Zeeland, Japan, Mexico, Venezuela,
China and others including the USA.

Cuba buys hundred millions of $ Dollars worth of goods from the USA every year on a cash as you buy basis,
the only thing left of the so-called embargo is a lack of
American credits while Cuba receives credits from other nations and owes billions of $ Dollars worth to those nations.

Foreigners with hard currency money are treated better
than native Cubans, poor foreigners are treated better
than native Cubans now that Hugo Chavez of Venezuela
finances it with Venezuelan oil money.

A relative of mine who happens to be a doctor left Cuba on a raft across 90 miles of shark infested waters about 1 years ago and now works in medical clinic doing as much doctor related work as possible while studying english so he can become a fully licensed doctor in the USA.

His younger brother in Cuba also a doctor is trying desperately all the legal channels to emigrate to the USA
and wants to leave on a raft if he has no other option but
his older brother does not want him to risk it the way he did.

P.S. I read in the paper today of a Cuban doctor who defected in Mexico, I have also read of other Cuban doctors who have drowned in the sea on rafts or boats
trying to get out of Cuba.

I have also read of other Cuban doctors who have drowned in the sea on rafts or boats trying to get out of Cuba.
Hey, I respect your opinions of course...but why does it always come back to "It must be horrible because of the rafts!"?

<snip>

Since Cuba trades with the European Union Nations,
Canada, Australia, New Zeeland, Japan, Mexico, Venezuela,
China and others including the USA.

<snip>

The USA has not traded with Cuba since the Communist Revolution there. Check your sources.

BTW, Where is New Zeeland?

The USA has not traded with Cuba since the Communist Revolution there. Check your sources.
There are always ways around it.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/10/world/main679400.shtml

BTW, Where is New Zeeland?
Lay off. I think his native language is Spanish (as I understand him he's a Cuban in exile), and therefore it might not be nice to criticise him because of silly spelling mistakes.

The USA has not traded with Cuba since the Communist Revolution there. Check your sources.

BTW, Where is New Zeeland?

Zealand.

why does it always come back to "It must be horrible because of the rafts!"?
Because lots of people risking their lives to leave a country isn't what constitutes a great endorsement.

Also the huge amount of Cubans all over Florida are a living testament that something over there sucks, and in a very big way. Also I never hear of Cuba having large populations of immigrants from capitalistic countries, which it would have if those people thought that Castro's communism was a way to a better life.

Fergi America']Because lots of people risking their lives to leave a country isn't what constitutes a great endorsement.
Of course...but that does not mean that everything there is horrible. All I'm contending is that Cuba obviously has some things the government has handled very well.

And personally, a guess of mine would be that the idea of the "American Dream" also plays a big role in people trying to move to the States. Mexicans risk their lives all the time to get into the US, yet AFAIK no one has declared the horrible Mexican government the reason for that - people are more likely to blame a lack of jobs, a sluggish economy and the accompanying poverty or just the appeal of the idea that in America, everyone could strike it rich (however false that may be).

My apology to Newzealanders for mispelling thier nation's name.
La Habana Cuba

There are always ways around it.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/10/world/main679400.shtml

Thank you Neu Leonstein for proving that Cuba does
buy goods from the USA.


Lay off. I think his native language is Spanish (as I understand him he's a Cuban in exile), and therefore it might not be nice to criticise him because of silly spelling mistakes.

Thank you for the Lay off comment.

La Habana Cuba

"... Human capital is worth far more than financial capital."

If only more people thought that way...

If only more people thought that way...
...we'd be back to trading in black ivory???? Shame on you!

Hey, I respect your opinions of course...but why does it always come back to "It must be horrible because of the rafts!"?

Because nobody ever considers that the idea these Cubans have of the USA while sitting on those rafts has very little indeed to do with reality.
Same phenomenon we had in Germany when the wall was still standing. People wanted to get across into the "Golden West", because the West had everything. They never once stopped to think that "The West has everything" doesn't necessarily mean "You will get everything". A large number of people today will tell you that "If we had known how it really is, we would never have come".
The difference between Western Germany then and the USA today is that the USA is putting much more effort into PR (Nowhere is better than here, we are the <insert superlative here> in the world...)

Because nobody ever considers that the idea these Cubans have of the USA while sitting on those rafts has very little indeed to do with reality.
Same phenomenon we had in Germany when the wall was still standing. People wanted to get across into the "Golden West", because the West had everything. They never once stopped to think that "The West has everything" doesn't necessarily mean "You will get everything". A large number of people today will tell you that "If we had known how it really is, we would never have come".
The difference between Western Germany then and the USA today is that the USA is putting much more effort into PR (Nowhere is better than here, we are the <insert superlative here> in the world...)

All I can say is, as a native born Cuban my family and I including my relatives like the cuban doctor are happy to have left Cuba for the USA, another Cuban relative of mine who recently emigrated from Cuba with her husband
and young son 12 years of age, says I work at a Mc Donalds, my husband in a restaurant as a cook and to return to Cuba with Fidel, ni loca, literally translated as
not even crazy.

All I can say is, as a native born Cuban my family and I including my relatives like the cuban doctor are happy to have left Cuba for the USA, another Cuban relative of mine who recently emigrated from Cuba with her husband
and young son 12 years of age, says I work at a Mc Donalds, my husband in a restaurant as a cook and to return to Cuba with Fidel, ni loca, literally translated as
not even crazy.

See, I would say the same thing if somebody suggested I should go back to Germany after I came to Ireland 2.5 years ago. And I know a large number of people who would immediately reserve me a room in an asylum for that. But different strokes for different folks.
I never lived in Cuba, I can't say much about it apart from one thing: I've been to many places so far, and every place has advantages and disadvantages. How much you like a place depends on what you're looking for.

One minute though...isn't Cuba also riddled with government corruption, the repression of civil freedoms and a Marxist style Communist economy? From what I have heard, many Cubans hate the place.

In addition, if you're producing medicines with the scope of making profit out of them, isn't that still greed? :rolleyes: This time on part of the State though.

Of course...but that does not mean that everything there is horrible. All I'm contending is that Cuba obviously has some things the government has handled very well.

And personally, a guess of mine would be that the idea of the "American Dream" also plays a big role in people trying to move to the States. Mexicans risk their lives all the time to get into the US, yet AFAIK no one has declared the horrible Mexican government the reason for that - people are more likely to blame a lack of jobs, a sluggish economy and the accompanying poverty or just the appeal of the idea that in America, everyone could strike it rich (however false that may be).

Yes, based on the article linked from the OP, it seems that the Cuban government isn't a total failure after all...

As for Mexico, personally I do think something's wrong with their government, and I'm surprised that not many seem to speak against it. I've read (offline) some grumbling about corruption there, but no large amount of gripes, which doesn't make much sense to me. After all, that lack of jobs, sluggish economy, and poverty they have didn't just appear on their own in the absence of bad policy and/or corruption.

I think a lot of immigrants (from anywhere) end up surprised to find that the streets here aren't "paved with gold." But, in general, they don't seem to want to go back home, showing that they think that it's at least an *improvement* over their prior living conditions.

One minute though...isn't Cuba also riddled with government corruption, the repression of civil freedoms and a Marxist style Communist economy? From what I have heard, many Cubans hate the place.

In addition, if you're producing medicines with the scope of making profit out of them, isn't that still greed? :rolleyes: This time on part of the State though.
it would appear that, yes, it is greed, but its being put back into the health budget rather than just going to line the pockets of the shareholders and mean the CEOs can drive around in flashy cars... a better type of greed

it would appear that, yes, it is greed, but its being put back into the health budget rather than just going to line the pockets of the shareholders and mean the CEOs can drive around in flashy cars... a better type of greed
What if they become the sole provider of the new drugs, and form a monopoly, hence making them expensive? Even if this is still more beneficial than CEOs driving around in flashy cars, it means poorer people will still not be able to access these medications.

In addition, capitalist governments can achieve similar innovations by giving firms incentive to research. They just use a different approach.

Hey, why not use the Human Development Index as an indicator?

(2003)
USA: 0.944 (capitalists)
Cuba: 0.817 (planned economy)
Sweden: 0.949 (A mixture of capitalism and planned economy)

It seems to me that a mixed economy is the way to go if you want prosperity.

Hey, why not use the Human Development Index as an indicator?

(2003)
USA: 0.944 (capitalists)
Cuba: 0.817 (planned economy)
Sweden: 0.949 (A mixture of capitalism and planned economy)

It seems to me that a mixed economy is the way to go if you want prosperity.
Agreed.

What if they become the sole provider of the new drugs, and form a monopoly, hence making them expensive? Even if this is still more beneficial than CEOs driving around in flashy cars, it means poorer people will still not be able to access these medications.

In addition, capitalist governments can achieve similar innovations by giving firms incentive to research. They just use a different approach.
what if... what if.... so many people's fear of government is limited to the "what if" that rarely happens in western democracies :rolleyes:

the public body should have it built-in, constitutionally, by law, that they serve the public interest.
opposed to the way that corporations are bound by law to only take their own interests into consideration.

i mean here in the UK we have a practical monopoly and monopsony with the NHS regarding healthcare. it doesn't work perfectly, but the idea is sound and everyone has access to healthcare and medicines.

i know its a different approach. in some cases, a capitalist approach may work best. in others, a collectivist approach may be more suited or achieve the same (or better result) with fewer 'side-effects' (such is the case here)

Hey, why not use the Human Development Index as an indicator?

(2003)
USA: 0.944 (capitalists)
Cuba: 0.817 (planned economy)
Sweden: 0.949 (A mixture of capitalism and planned economy)

It seems to me that a mixed economy is the way to go if you want prosperity.


I think that its unfair when people compare Cuba to the US just number-to-number


people have to rememeber that Communist Cuba is a very recent country, and they inherited a poor country. Wich before was a Spanish colony, although there was a lot of money to be made, it almost never stayed in Cuba, and if it did, it went to the rich, adn the rich left with the Cuban revolution.


We have to compare the numbers in context. (the US and Sweeden are both, and while Cuba was poor, wealthy)

And if we do, the numbers show us that a planned economy can raise the HDI significantly

what if... what if.... so many people's fear of government is limited to the "what if" that rarely happens in western democracies :rolleyes:
Since when is Cuba a "Western Democracy"? :p

the public body should have it built-in, constitutionally, by law, that they serve the public interest.
opposed to the way that corporations are bound by law to only take their own interests into consideration.

i mean here in the UK we have a practical monopoly and monopsony with the NHS regarding healthcare. it doesn't work perfectly, but the idea is sound and everyone has access to healthcare and medicines.

i know its a different approach. in some cases, a capitalist approach may work best. in others, a collectivist approach may be more suited or achieve the same (or better result) with fewer 'side-effects' (such is the case here)
Oh I agree with you that a mixed economy is best, ie that some markets should have more government regulation than others, whereas others should be more free. I am just arguing from a capitalist viewpoint.

Yes, Castro is a dictator, and freedom of press is nearly inexistant in Cuba. Sure, that's not acceptable. But, what is the worse place in the island of Cuba, where human rights are less respected, where torture is frequent ? It's not Castro's prisons. It's Guantanamo Bay. Which is controled by... USA. Oh, USA is fighting terror ? But what else is Castro doing ? There never was any bombing of tourist hostels inside Cuba ? Never any bombing of civilian Cuban planes ? Never any attempt to murder their president ? Cuba was far more often targeted by terrorists than USA. And still, Castro isn't using torture. Press is censored, yes. That's unacceptable. But isn't press censored, in its own way, in USA ? Is there any newspaper or TV channel in USA defending communism ? Or defending Castro ? Or defending Chavez ?

So yes, there are a lot of problems in Cuba. Castro is not an angel. But before diabolising him, look at yourselves. Look at the policies followed by USA and its puppet countries. And you'll see that Castro's answers, even if not acceptable, or not very uncommon to western countries' answers to threats like the terrorist threat. Threats against Cuba are much more real, and yet Castro doesn't answer that much more harshly.

Now, on the economical side, look at what we have. Cuba ranks better than USA in childdeath rates. In illeteracy rates. Around the same in life expectency. But... Cuba is suffering from a decennia-long embargo (and don't tell me there is none). Cuba doesn't control the international trade currency. It doesn't have veto right in IMF, WB and WTO. It doesn't have puppet states all around the world. It doesn't receive billions of dollars each year as "repayment of the debt" from poor countries. And yet, they rank higher than USA in some fundamental fields !

So, if Cuba if far from perfect, and if Castro is a dictator, you can't either say that Cuba is a complete failure, that it doesn't work at all. Cuba is doing better than all countries did in similar situations. Cuba is doing better than USA, on healthcare and education issues. That's a fact.

Now, don't make me cry with people having to use the... bicycle ! And so ? USA (and other western countries) are destroying our planet with their insane absuive use of cars ! We do we need cars to go to work, if it's close enough ? (And remember Cuba is small...) I would be glad to use more the bike, if only there were less cars running at insane speed in the streets... and it would better for all. Less population, less traffic jams, less car accidents, ... and healthier population ;)

Cuba is a shining example of what Dr.'s are capable of subsisting on. Although in part the 6+ years of high priced schooling that US and many other national dr.'s need to incur is a way of showing the HIGH ballpark that exists, as a sign of the class division and segregation of unity of information access. That is people make you pay because they can, not because they need to.

I wonder how much more Juice Fidel has in him? I'd be interested in medical technology if I were him too.

The Cuban Embargo and such is pretty messed up, but to say the least it is competition and an attempt of the US to maintain 'western hemisphere' dominance in the monroe Doctrine. The spanish american war and the purchase of Cuba Peurto Rico, Guam, and the philipines for 20 million dollars, makes it odd how the US managed to loose dominance of these areas? If it did keep them I bet ya US would be very close to having Spanish as it's second language and Unionization of Mexico and Canada would come even easier and for that matter all of N and S america. To say the least the US didn't need Cuban sugar anymore...cubas former #1 export.. Of course the dictators the US supported befor definately didn't assist them in staying on good terms with these territories.. ultimately it was US policy and they choose that situation.

After Fidel keels over a post fidel age will most likely open cuba up to US rape once again, but maybe Cuba knows better now.. and their doctors will be able to get $$$'s if liscened or maybe they will export their community values.

All nations should see cuba as an example but lets get real if doctors can price gouge you for good eyes they will if all that your society values is the $.


I disagree with the first article blaiming castro for the 'bad economy', I think that it may be more so TRADE SANCTIONS AND AN EMBARGO FOR A COUPLE DECADES that may moreso be to blame.

Hey, why not use the Human Development Index as an indicator?

(2003)
USA: 0.944 (capitalists)
Cuba: 0.817 (planned economy)
Sweden: 0.949 (A mixture of capitalism and planned economy)

It seems to me that a mixed economy is the way to go if you want prosperity.

Don't forget the context. When the socialist revolution occured in Cuba, it was a third world country, while USA was already the richest country of the world. Don't also forget that Cuba is currently under an embargo, while USA control the currency of world trade, and is the only country with veto right inside IMF. Don't forget also that USA has its bunch of puppet states all around the world, while Cuba is alone against nearly everyone.

Scoring that high, despite all the context, is indeed very good for Cuba.

Kilobugya, I wasn't exactly saying the USA is perfect :p I am not even defending the USA, being European. I was just saying its a bit too early to begin glorifying Castro and his regime.

Since when is Cuba a "Western Democracy"? :p

lol i was speaking generally :p

Oh I agree with you that a mixed economy is best, ie that some markets should have more government regulation than others, whereas others should be more free. I am just arguing from a capitalist viewpoint.
mm and i would agree with that (i have two sets of politics: commie idealistically, but just 'left' (re: mixed economy) in RL)
nowt wrong with playing devil's advocate :)


Scoring that high, despite all the context, is indeed very good for Cuba.
*nods*

lol i was speaking generally :p


mm and i would agree with that (i have two sets of politics: commie idealistically, but just 'left' (re: mixed economy) in RL)
nowt wrong with playing devil's advocate :)
Idealistically I'd go for something alongside Plato's Republic, ie meritocratic rule by intellectuals, yet in a far more liberal, capitalist context, without the heavy state control he advocated. Currently though I would be in favour of mixed economies.

Playing the Devil's Advocate is usually a good way to test your own ideas. :)

Idealistically I'd go for something alongside Plato's Republic, ie meritocratic rule by intellectuals, yet in a far more liberal, capitalist context, without the heavy state control he advocated. Currently though I would be in favour of mixed economies.

Playing the Devil's Advocate is usually a good way to test your own ideas. :)
sounds crazy, but ok :P
and yeah playing devil's advocate with myself (that sounds crazy too heh) was how i ended up believing in communism. better that (and to be 'extreme') than just believing the BS some politician tells you and not really thinking about it...

sounds crazy, but ok :P
and yeah playing devil's advocate with myself (that sounds crazy too heh) was how i ended up believing in communism. better that (and to be 'extreme') than just believing the BS some politician tells you and not really thinking about it...
Its not that crazy, because you actually have people who know what they doing up there whilst retaining civil and certain political liberties. The Republic goes into a lot of detail about it. What we have now is crazy (ie believing the BS of sly politicians). Anyway, any good (wannabe) philosopher has to play Devil's advocate with themself. It sharpens the mind, even if it makes you seem crazy. I am digressing though...
*ends hijack*

Kilobugya, I wasn't exactly saying the USA is perfect :p I am not even defending the USA, being European. I was just saying its a bit too early to begin glorifying Castro and his regime.

Well, I was not answering to you specifically ;) And you can see from my post that I'm not glorifing Castro either...

Well, I was not answering to you specifically ;) And you can see from my post that I'm not glorifing Castro either...
Very well :)

This is a great thread very informative on both sides of the issues according to each of our diffrent views with great discussions, I plan to post more posts in the near future.
La Habana Cuba

This is a great thread very informative on both sides of the issues according to each of our diffrent views with great discussions, I plan to post more posts in the near future.
La Habana Cuba
This is the unusual situation of a thread not devolving into a bunch of off-topic nonsense (as opposed to off-topic intelligent discussions :p). Not all threads are like this :p

After I posted on this thread about my Cuban doctor

relatives and the doctor who recently defected in Mexico
I started to search through the internet on Cuban doctor

defections and found a statement by a group of Cuban

doctor defectors which I will post on here as a link,

since
thier statement is so strong that I would not personally
ever dare to post it in such away directly as I like to

post directly all my links, there is no foul language on

this link
but their statement is strong.

First I will post directly the link of the Cuban doctor

who defected in Mexico.

Posted on Mon, Jan. 16, 2006
In stopped medical Miami in MexicoWILFREDO CANCIO

ISLANDThe New HeraldAndmedical l Cuban Alcides Lorenzo,

who deserted month in Mexico the past, arrived yesterday

at Miami after crossing the border and asking for

political asylum in the United States.
Lorenzo, ex- head of the familiar medicine group in

Cuba, was released at night of Friday by the Mexican

authorities, that gave a safe-conduct to him to leave

the country. The doctor traveled immediately to the city

of Reynosa and he appeared in a American border control

post, at dawn of Sunday.
The civil employees of Immigration granted parole to him

and they set free hours later. Lorenzo did not waste

time: volume an airplane in Houston and to the the 3

edge of p.m. arrived at Miami, where several relatives

live.
' ' I am very contented, because I already could speak

with my family in Cubá', Lorenzo said last night, of 43

years, that her wife has in Havana, the White doctor

González Wake, and both smaller children of the

marriage. `` My first intention now is to obtain the

reunification familiar''.
Lorenzo declared to the New Herald that will not scrimp

efforts to denounce `` the lamentable operation of the

human resources, of doctors and nurses, in the health

system cubanó'.
After his desertion, Lorenzo sent to forts declarations

on the crisis of the system of primary attention in Cuba

as a result of international the medical missions,

mainly in Venezuela.
The prominent doctor was head of the national familiar

medicine group from 1998.

--------------------------------------------------------

Now the link to the other related story

http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/zdoctorsblamecastro.html