NationStates Jolt Archive

Disclaimer: I am in no way attempting to make one way seem better than the other, nor am I questioning anyone's faith. I am merely pointing out something I have noticed.

I've noticed something interesting about movies and stories concerning the Devil and how it relates to Christianity. The primary thing I've noticed is that the Devil is always beaten back by words and prayers and some old dude giving the right incantations in the proper order in Christo-centric films.

As a Muslim, I am taught that when it comes to the Devil, I must fight him and his minions with my body as well. Think of Rambo vs. Satan in that capacity. It's why we prepare so strongly, body and mind, for Jihad.

I'm wondering if this is just one of the fundamental differences in how we view the great Adversary, or if it is truly of the Christian belief that words will be enough. Any insight into this will be appreciated.

Well, I think that true Christians are pacifists. As Jesus was a pacificist himself. I think Christianity at it's core rejects violence. And that violence is merely another form of the devil.

I think Islam embraces violence though. Mohammed was not only a prophet, he was also a warrior, hence all the military campaigns he waged on the Arabian peninsula against pagan tribes.

This is just my perspective, I am an Agnostic by the way.

I think Islam embraces violence though. Mohammed was not only a prophet, he was also a warrior

Aye ... that may have some to do with it, though we do not venerate Mohammed as Christians do Jesus. Mohammed was just a man, nothing more or less. He sinned as we all do.

Although I do see your point.

They used to burn people at the stake and stuff for 'consorting with the devil.'

That's not so popular now. I think it had something to do with the thirty years war.

I have also heard that a lot of christians don't believe in satan anyway.

That's not so popular now.

Dang ... I bet charbroiled Satan is tastey.

They used to burn people at the stake and stuff for 'consorting with the devil.'

That's not so popular now. I think it had something to do with the thirty years war.

I have also heard that a lot of christians don't believe in satan anyway.

Well I wasn't saying that Christians are incapable of doing horrible things that Jesus would obviously condemn. I truely think they have strayed away from the true teachings of Jesus in the process and that true Christianity actually preaches against violence.

Well, I think that true Christians are pacifists. As Jesus was a pacificist himself. I think Christianity at it's core rejects violence. And that violence is merely another form of the devil.

It's true. We believe, or atleast, what I know of my own faith, that reading scripture, i.e. the Holy Word is enough to counter act Satan. This is because I'm guessing, by knowing the Word, it means that you live by it and you therefore will not succumb to the temptations of the Satan. Since the whole idea of the devil is to tempt you to do wrong, by not doing it, you are harming his whole well-being.

This is because I'm guessing, by knowing the Word, it means that you live by it and you therefore will not succumb to the temptations of the Satan.

Ok this is good. This is the line of thinking I wanted. Is there scripture to back this up?

You must forgive me ... I've never been a Christian. I know little about Christian scripture. I am, however, a complete pacifist. More than most people around here.

Well, first, you want to keep in mind that what you see in the movies is often more of a stereotype than fact. True of...well, just about anything that comes out of Hollywood.

Another thing to remember is that all Christians don't believe in exactly the same things. For instance, most Protestants don't buy in to the whole Catholic exorcism thing with the holy water and all that stuff.

Furthermore, the Book of Revelation does talk about a final battle with Satan, and there's nothing peaceful about it. The normal Christian viewpoint I encounter is that Satan is more powerful than men, but far less powerful than God. Thus, we must depend upon the Holy Spirit to keep Satan at bay and to eventually destroy him.

Disclaimer: I am in no way attempting to make one way seem better than the other, nor am I questioning anyone's faith. I am merely pointing out something I have noticed.

I've noticed something interesting about movies and stories concerning the Devil and how it relates to Christianity. The primary thing I've noticed is that the Devil is always beaten back by words and prayers and some old dude giving the right incantations in the proper order in Christo-centric films.

As a Muslim, I am taught that when it comes to the Devil, I must fight him and his minions with my body as well. Think of Rambo vs. Satan in that capacity. It's why we prepare so strongly, body and mind, for Jihad.

I'm wondering if this is just one of the fundamental differences in how we view the great Adversary, or if it is truly of the Christian belief that words will be enough. Any insight into this will be appreciated.

I think that more specifically, christians believe that alone, man cannot beat the devil. That it takes our faith in God and Jesus Christ to act as a conduit for them to give us the strength to defeat the devil.

Well, first, you want to keep in mind that what you see in the movies is often more of a stereotype than fact. True of...well, just about anything that comes out of Hollywood.

Yeah ... and I'm taking that with a very large grain of salt.

Another thing to remember is that all Christians don't believe in exactly the same things.

Right. Just like not all Muslims believe the exact same thing. Still with ya.

Furthermore, the Book of Revelation does talk about a final battle with Satan, and there's nothing peaceful about it.

Ah ... something I have not read. Mmkay.

Disclaimer: I am in no way attempting to make one way seem better than the other, nor am I questioning anyone's faith. I am merely pointing out something I have noticed.

I've noticed something interesting about movies and stories concerning the Devil and how it relates to Christianity. The primary thing I've noticed is that the Devil is always beaten back by words and prayers and some old dude giving the right incantations in the proper order in Christo-centric films.

As a Muslim, I am taught that when it comes to the Devil, I must fight him and his minions with my body as well. Think of Rambo vs. Satan in that capacity. It's why we prepare so strongly, body and mind, for Jihad.

I'm wondering if this is just one of the fundamental differences in how we view the great Adversary, or if it is truly of the Christian belief that words will be enough. Any insight into this will be appreciated.
To me, the difference seems to be the inabilty of the exttremists in any situation to draw a distinction between religion and politics. Movies are entertainment. If you wish to compare he resolve of Christians to the resolve of charectors in movies I'd suggest meting some Christians , in person, and discussing it. Or is there some reason you can't do this?

I think that more specifically, christians believe that alone, man cannot beat the devil. That it takes our faith in God and Jesus Christ to act as a conduit for them to give us the strength to defeat the devil.

Ah! Ok ...

So what you're saying here is that you, as a person, alone cannot beat back the Adversary. There must be something in place along with your own personal strength?

That helps. It helps me to understand a little of the theological differences in belief between Muslims and Christians. Thanks, LG. No wonder it says in Torah that the Jesters be the most blessed. :D

Good stuff I'm reading!

So we've established that both religions have conflict in them.

Just the difference between them is Christians think that they can only defeat the devil through their faith in God and Jesus and Islam empowers the individual to take up arms against the devil himself.

Does that sound about it?

I'd suggest meting some Christians , in person, and discussing it. Or is there some reason you can't do this?

No no .. not at all. I live in Texas. I've known Christians my whole life. But in person, it seems, that Christians are loathe to speak with non-Christians about doctrine and, in this day and age especially, to avoid Muslims.

Just the difference between them is Christians think that they can only defeat the devil through their faith in God and Jesus and Islam empowers the individual to take up arms against the devil himself.

Does that sound about it?

Sounds about right so far, yep!

Hey keruvalia, why do muslims think so highly of a meteorite?(not meant to be rude with that..just wondering..) Does it have something to do with how Muslims think that is where Ibrahim nearly sacrificed Ishmael?(instead of Isaac in Judeo-christian beleif)Just wondering

Have you tried to ask a religious leader or someone in authority? Speaking from outside both groups, it seems to me to be merely a substitution of the infidel.

Hey keruvalia, why do muslims think so highly of a meteorite?(not meant to be rude with that..just wondering..) Does it have something to do with how Muslims think that is where Ibrahim nearly sacrificed Ishmael?(instead of Isaac in Judeo-christian beleif)Just wondering

Meteorite? Whatever do you mean? Christians have Wormwood, not us.

Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his first born son. Ishmael was born first. There is no question of that. Even Torah scholars agree.

No no .. not at all. I live in Texas. I've known Christians my whole life. But in person, it seems, that Christians are loathe to speak with non-Christians about doctrine and, in this day and age especially, to avoid Muslims.


The only thing i have against muslims is the radical view of the radical few that truly deeply hate Israel, hebrews and the jewish religion...But heck i'd like to talk to a person of another faith about doctrine..its rather fun to me

Have you tried to ask a religious leader or someone in authority? Speaking from outside both groups, it seems to me to be merely a substitution of the infidel.

I wouldn't know. The word "infidel" is never once used in Qur'an.

Religious leaders are, by nature, politicians. I'd rather ask the adherents.

The only thing i have against muslims is the radical view of the radical few that truly deeply hate Israel, hebrews and the jewish religion...But heck i'd like to talk to a person of another faith about doctrine..its rather fun to me

Don't hold that against Muslims. 1.5 billion Muslims, only 150-200 thousand nutjobs.

It would be like holding all of America accountable for Tim McVeigh. Everyone has their nuts.

Meteorite? Whatever do you mean? Christians have Wormwood, not us.

Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his first born son. Ishmael was born first. There is no question of that. Even Torah scholars agree.


Well I have heard that the Black stone in Mecca is supposedly a meteorite..BUT no testing can be done on it tho.

As for the abraham thing..I don't recall that..ill have to look it up real quick..

Ok this is good. This is the line of thinking I wanted. Is there scripture to back this up?

You must forgive me ... I've never been a Christian. I know little about Christian scripture. I am, however, a complete pacifist. More than most people around here.

Never? Not even a few times? C'mon everybody's doin' it.;)

Seriously though, it's o.k. I don't have any specific scripture to back it up right now and I have to go to bed, so I'll get back to you tomorrow, no wait later today, if someone else doesn't come up with some paraphrasing.

Oh, and just wondering, what do you mean by a complete pacafist? This may get a bit off topic, but, does that mean you would never fight for any reason, or does it mean you just rather avoid conflict at all costs? That may seem a bit redundant, but what I mean is that, you would fight in the end if the conflict can't be avoided. Sorry, I'm just picking at words and phrases, it's a thing I do.

No no .. not at all. I live in Texas. I've known Christians my whole life. But in person, it seems, that Christians are loathe to speak with non-Christians about doctrine and, in this day and age especially, to avoid Muslims.

This is true of lots of Christians, which is sad, since one of the main things that Jesus taught was the importance of debate.

Disclaimer: I am in no way attempting to make one way seem better than the other, nor am I questioning anyone's faith. I am merely pointing out something I have noticed.

I've noticed something interesting about movies and stories concerning the Devil and how it relates to Christianity. The primary thing I've noticed is that the Devil is always beaten back by words and prayers and some old dude giving the right incantations in the proper order in Christo-centric films.

As a Muslim, I am taught that when it comes to the Devil, I must fight him and his minions with my body as well. Think of Rambo vs. Satan in that capacity. It's why we prepare so strongly, body and mind, for Jihad.

I'm wondering if this is just one of the fundamental differences in how we view the great Adversary, or if it is truly of the Christian belief that words will be enough. Any insight into this will be appreciated.

As a mormon, I believe nearly the same as you. We are meant to prepare for the Apocalypse spiritually, mentally, and physically. We believe that all people are the children of God, and therefore we are told not to instigate harm upon them except in cases of war or divine instruction.
We believe Christ's instructions to strive for peace, but we also believe that some things are worth fighting for. We also believe Christ's words from Matthew 10:34, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Don't hold that against Muslims. 1.5 billion Muslims, only 150-200 thousand nutjobs.

It would be like holding all of America accountable for Tim McVeigh. Everyone has their nuts.


Well its kinda the same thing when people refrence back to previous deeds by past christians or deed done by supposed "christians" today..so yeah i under stand what you mean there..what i should of said was "the only thing i have against SOME radical muslims" my bad dawg :p

I wouldn't know. The word "infidel" is never once used in Qur'an.

Religious leaders are, by nature, politicians. I'd rather ask the adherents.
Excuse my lack of manners, please. What I meant to say is, you'd both appear to prefer I, and the group to which you don't belong, not exist. I don't understand or sypathise with either of you and while I don't hate either of you I a suspicious of both groups.

I wouldn't know. The word "infidel" is never once used in Qur'an.


Just like that there is now list of seven deadly sins in the bible,but most peope nowadays are ignorant(like me sometimes)

Good stuff I'm reading!

So we've established that both religions have conflict in them.

Just the difference between them is Christians think that they can only defeat the devil through their faith in God and Jesus and Islam empowers the individual to take up arms against the devil himself.

Does that sound about it?
One thing that I would like to add, as a Christian I feel that in addition to faith, that we are expected to work to overcome temptaions and Satan in our life. As James 1:5 reminds us, faith without works is dead.

If, for example, we have a problem with alcohol, in addition to having faith that through Christ and His atonment we can overcome that problem, we need to do our part by not going to bars, getting rid of temptaions in our home (maybe a wine collectoin, beer in the fridge), etc.

Further, we are expected as Christians to make every legal effort to counteract the devil in our communities. If a strip club is being built, it takes more then just faith that it will go away (most don't get struck by lightning and burn down). We need to vote, petition, protest (again, in legal manners), boycott (especially this one), and let our voices be heard.

True, eventually Christ will destroy the wicked, and bring about an era of peace and joy for the righteous, but until that comes, our stugge is very much a physical thing, it is our obligation to the world.

Ah! Ok ...

So what you're saying here is that you, as a person, alone cannot beat back the Adversary. There must be something in place along with your own personal strength?

That helps. It helps me to understand a little of the theological differences in belief between Muslims and Christians. Thanks, LG. No wonder it says in Torah that the Jesters be the most blessed. :D

Yes. It's in the story of Original Sin. Even the purest of men and women were tempted by Satan. There are other stories both old and more recent that strengthens this christian view that only God can defeat the Devil and only our faith in God gives Him the ability to work through us.

Had I been born in a different era, Jester is exactly what I would have been. :)

Well I have heard that the Black stone in Mecca is supposedly a meteorite..BUT no testing can be done on it tho.

Actually, according to most of us, it's the first temple built to the God of Abraham. (Gen ch. 15)

As for the abraham thing..I don't recall that..ill have to look it up real quick..

Gen. 22:2 "And He said, 'Take your son, your first born, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah ..."

Many KJV and NIV and whatnot conclude this to be Isaac, but Ishmael was born of Haggar first (Gen 16:11). It shows the modern Christian sensibility of children born out of wedlock, as Ishmael was.

However, none of this matters, as all of the children of Abraham were blessed (Gen. 17:3-7, 17:20) and even Ishmael was circumsized and brought into the Covenant (Gen 17:23).

This is true of lots of Christians, which is sad, since one of the main things that Jesus taught was the importance of debate.


Along with tolerance, love, wisdom, and helping the poor and less fortunatly FREELY..(like free health care and welfare)

I think it comes down to the idea that humans are basically useless, helpless, and wrong in the cosmic view of things. The christians in movies are not sending the demons away with words, they are calling on God to do it. Muslims believe that they are significant as individuals, that they have their own power and can use it to fight evil, without and within. Christians believe that they lack the power to combat evil themselves, that they are fallible, and that the only salvation is through God.

Oh, and just wondering, what do you mean by a complete pacafist?

I mean it would be easier to get Ghandi to take a swing at you.

Actually, according to most of us, it's the first temple built to the God of Abraham. (Gen ch. 15)



Gen. 22:2 "And He said, 'Take your son, your first born, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah ..."

Many KJV and NIV and whatnot conclude this to be Isaac, but Ishmael was born of Haggar first (Gen 16:11). It shows the modern Christian sensibility of children born out of wedlock, as Ishmael was.

However, none of this matters, as all of the children of Abraham were blessed (Gen. 17:3-7, 17:20) and even Ishmael was circumsized and brought into the Covenant (Gen 17:23).


Good way to back that up..saved me from looking it up..But really what we should not do is not really debate over diffrences in our faiths, but rather come together and celebrate the similarities and the fact that we all(jews, christians and muslims) worship the same God. But that would be in a perfect world,eh?

Excuse my lack of manners, please. What I meant to say is, you'd both appear to prefer I, and the group to which you don't belong, not exist.

Not at all. I'm sorry you've been given this impression. I can only hope there's some way I can make you see otherwise.

Just like that there is now list of seven deadly sins in the bible,but most peope nowadays are ignorant(like me sometimes)
Really, all sins are deadly. There stands a fine line between doctrine (contained in scripture given by revalation to prophets) and traditions that have sprout up about what is "in" the bible. There is no listing of 7 sins that are thus refered to as deadly, it is a Catholic belief brought about through interpretation and tradition. So while it may be very real to some, to others (like myself)) it is not.

Good way to back that up..saved me from looking it up..But really what we should not do is not really debate over diffrences in our faiths, but rather come together and celebrate the similarities and the fact that we all(jews, christians and muslims) worship the same God. But that would be in a perfect world,eh?

The similarities, yes, we should celebrate. I am merely curious about this one difference. :) Differences are good. A perfect world would be a boring world.

Really, all sins are deadly. There stands a fine line between doctrine (contained in scripture given by revalation to prophets) and traditions that have sprout up about what is "in" the bible.

AH! Good response. Tradition vs. Law. This is something I've encountered in many Jewish circles as well as Muslim circles.

The similarities, yes, we should celebrate. I am merely curious about this one difference. :) Differences are good. A perfect world would be a boring world.


Yup..See i am glad there is at least one person on here that i can discuss religion about with out having flamming going on. Allah Grazif(sp) keruvalia

Yup..See i am glad there is at least one person on here that i can discuss relgion about with out having flamming going on. Allah Grazif(sp) keruvalia

Well I'm genuinely hoping this won't turn into a flame war. I'll be the first to ask the mods to lock it and dispose of it if it does.

Well I'm genuinely hoping this won't turn into a flame war. I'll be the first to ask the mods to lock it and dispose of it if it does.
It would be especially ironic for a flame war to begin, since I've found that when people angrily try to disuade or promote a religion/denomination, it usually polarizes thier intended target even more in thier belief.

Just like Martin & Malcolm :|

As for the abraham thing..I don't recall that..ill have to look it up real quick..

In regards to Abraham: he began his life as a pagan named Abram, and his wife was named Sarai. His father's name, which escapes me at this moment, means "moon-worshiper." Anyway, God talks to Abram about all kinds of stuff, such as descendents who outnumber the stars, a chosen people, a land for them, all that business, in exchange for the circumcision of their sons and following Him and all that Jazz. Abram changes his name to Abraham, and Sarai changes her name to Sarah. Well, God's right about the land: they travel to Canaan, a land flowing with milk and honey (not literally), and they hang out. Great place. Unfortunately, Sarah can't conceive. And back in the day, if you couldn't bear a son, you had little purpose as a woman. Bad deal, especially when God himself promised you countless desendents. Anyway, Sarah tells Abraham he can have sex with Hagar, her concubine, to bear him a son. He does, and Hagar bears Ishmael to him. This is all fine and dandy, sort of, but then Abraham has sex with Sarah, who bears him Isaac. Hagar gets jealous, things get a little touchy between her and Hagar, and God tells Abraham to send her and Ishmael away. Abraham is of course a little concerned about this, because Ishmael is his first born (and that's a huge deal, as the primogeniture is chosen, inherits the birthright, and that whole bit), but God assures him everything will be ok. God somehow makes sure Hagar and Ishmael survive (I can't recall how), and everything is cool with Abraham. Well, that's until God tells Abraham to take Isaac up to a mountain, prepare an alter, and sacrifice him to God. At this point (I believe--this might have happened before he sent Ishmael away, but I can't quite remember, and I'm trying to go all from memory), Abraham's really concerned because he's had so much trouble trying to get heirs, and he's already lost his first. Anyway, Abraham's about to knife Isaac when an Angel comes down and tells him that God was just testing him. You know, to make sure he's loyal and all that. They all live happily ever after, etc etc etc. I could go on about Isaac, but that's not important.

Anyway, there's something in the Koran, IIRC, that states how Abraham helped Ishmael build a temple or something. I'm not really sure as I'm not a Muslim, but it's something to that effect, and Abraham is a big deal partially because of it. Also, I believe, he's venerated for his willingness to sacrifice Isaac. Again, sacrificing your only son is a big friggin' deal. Or maybe it refers to sending Ishmael out in the wilderness. Either way, the old man took a lot on faith.

Don't worry--I'm not some bible-thumping Fundamentalist. I'm just a Catholic (and I haven't been to Mass since Christmas, and before that for over a month) who remembers his bible. Especially the Old Testment, which is atually fun. It's some good readin'--the Almighty nukes some cities, drops plauges, floods the world, and we even get some prostitues, innocent girls get raped (and presumably killed) in exchange for the well-being of the rest of their family, and the Jews break down some city walls and kill everyone. God makes the Jews into temporary super-soldiers and they kick everyone else's asses. And don't get me started on the book of Judges. It's an absolute blast.

Just like Martin & Malcolm :|

Both heroes of mine. :)

I'm a christian and I belive that Islam is a beautiful religion. Many of the things that Islam teaches is close to Christianity. It's a shame that many people consider the two enemies and there are so many misconceptions about Islam.

I'll use scripture to back what we believe, and will not in any way attempt to belittle or comment on your faith.

The way that we are taught to fight demons and cast them off is to proclaim the victory in the name of Christ. We believe that God has victory over the devil, and fighting satan off is a matter of faith and proclaimming the authority that Christ has given us.

The Healing of a Boy With a Demon
14When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15"Lord, have mercy on my son," he said. "He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him."

17"O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me." 18Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment.

19Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?"

20He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."[

Matt 17:14-20

Here, Christ told us to have faith in prayer, when we have faith, everything will be done, of course it has to align with the will of God. And this is written in John 16:24 and James 4:2-3

24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete. (John 16:24)


2You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures. (James 4:2-3)

The part about the authority of Christ given to us is found in:

1When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, (Luke 9:1)

17The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name." (Luke 10:17)

18She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, "In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!" At that moment the spirit left her. (Acts 16:18)

4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. (1John 4:4)

Yea, so as Christians, we are called into God's family and to embrace His love for us. As His children, God has given us authority, just so longs as we ask in faith and according to His will. Unfortunately, as with all humans, we're not perfect, and perfects you've seen some ugly Christians. I'm not saying that all Christians are perfect holy molys, but we've gotta admit that we're living in an imperfect world. Perhaps a 'Christian' parallel to those Islamic extremists we see today can be found during the crusades. I don't support them and personally, I feel that they've not represented the full image of Christ, as Christ never advocated violence. Sadly, not many Christians portray the true image of Christ these days. I'm also not perfect and am a sinner, that makes me a Christian. Coz I know that I sin and only way for me to gain salvation and forgiveness is to accept Christ as my Lord and saviour.

You're both wrong.

There is no god.

Well, you've got your own opinion, and I respect that. But I don't think it's right to say that we are wrong, coz we, too can say the same thing about your set of believes.

Okay just thought I would jump just into this madness.

First off there is a God and he lives today and is still a God of Miracles that speaks and guides men today.Okay so heres my thoughts on the matter. Put all the parts of a watch in bag and shake it around for 40 billion years...will all the pieces align exactly and a watch come out of the bag? No never. People who believe in the theory( yes it is a theory...it will never become a Law of science because it contains many false ideas) evolution as the means by which we came into being are seriously misinformed. For example one supposed human ancestor( if not the only copy of that certain type of early ancestor to man) is nothing but a homo sapian suffering from servere artrhitis. Perhaps all these few bones we find are nothing more than severly deformed humans? Now if you are a fan of carbon dating and say hey hold on a second...these bones are millions of years old. Well consider this. Scientists were given tar from an english castle a few hundred years old and a fresh seal skin and they carbon dated them both. The results....the tar was said to have been 10 of thousands of years old and the seal skin which byt he way was freshly made, was given several hundreds years of age. The point? Carbon dating is not accurate. Moreover on this topic. Consider the position of the earth. If the earth were just a mere one mile further away from the sun it would make it too cold to live on. Put it one mile closer and it becomes too hot. The placment of the earth is extremely precise which testifies the existance of a divine creator. Also take in to consideration the very history of language. According to every ancient culture LANGUAGE is a gift from the HEAVENS. If we truly did evolve would not language have evolved also? It is very interesting to note that many ancient langauges just sprang up over night.
Take ancient Egyptian for eaxmple. There are no cave drawings showing its evoltution into what we call the first ancient Egyptian. The writing just appeared overnight literally in a form that was fully functionally and useable. As time went on THEN it begain to evolve and later divided into three major groups like demotic egyptian for example. So in precis of the language portion of this languages were gifts from God. Well i could pull out all sorts of logically information like the above but I think is enough food for thought on that matter.

Any thoughts on what I have written?

Amen!

well Im glad to get an amen but I'd apprecaite more feedback than that lol

<snip!>

Also take in to consideration the very history of language. According to every ancient culture LANGUAGE is a gift from the HEAVENS. If we truly did evolve would not language have evolved also? It is very interesting to note that many ancient langauges just sprang up over night.
Take ancient Egyptian for eaxmple. There are no cave drawings showing its evoltution into what we call the first ancient Egyptian. The writing just appeared overnight literally in a form that was fully functionally and useable. As time went on THEN it begain to evolve and later divided into three major groups like demotic egyptian for example. So in precis of the language portion of this languages were gifts from God. Well i could pull out all sorts of logically information like the above but I think is enough food for thought on that matter.

Any thoughts on what I have written?

Yep, according to the tradition of Ancient Kemet, written language was a gift from Djehuty (Thoth), the Wise God.

Of course, saying it "suddenly appeared" is probably not quite accurate. You have to remember that the bits and pieces of writing found in Egypt are incredibly old, most only preserved because of the medium on which they were written, ie. stone. There are some papyrus writings preserved, but we can only guess how small a percentage these are of how much was around at the time.

When the writing begins to "appear" is more likely to be simply when it begins to be written on mediums that would last through the ages. There is nothing to say that it didn't evolve, with bits and pieces taken from other contemporary cultures' written languages over time, before the Ancient Egyptians began to stick all over the walls of tombs and temples where it would last. In fact, I dare say, that is probably more likely than Djehuty appearing and saying "Okay, guys. I've got this "Writing" thing for you. It might help you out a bit. Enjoy."

As much as I love and honour Djehuty, if He gave writing as a gift, He did it with a bit more subtlety than a pretty, wrapped box with the knowledge of writing inside. :)

Edit: Erm, sorry for the blatant off-topic-ness in your thread, Keruvalia.

The only thing i have against muslims is the radical view of the radical few that truly deeply hate Israel, hebrews and the jewish religion...But heck i'd like to talk to a person of another faith about doctrine..its rather fun to meDisclaimer for Keruvalia:
Since you are Trying to find out about Christians.. I want it to be clear that

Individuals like Zilam and Pat Robertson represent only the so called "US Christian Right" ..
which amounts to less than 5% of Christianity.

Most of us Christians do not have a particular Pro-Israel Bias.
We are not all biased against any particular group or race.
We are not all racist against the Arabs ar Muslims.

Ocean, you think Pat Robertson represents up to 40% of the US? There's just no way that's true. You need to lower the max for your range, because that's just absurd. Catholics are 25% of the entire US population. And we have nothing to do with Pat Robertson. Christianity is 75% of the US population.

How your number even comes close is beyond me.

Okay just thought I would jump just into this madness.... *snip*

Hoo boy, where to start...

1) This is not an evolution thread. There are dozens of such threads in this forum where this post would do better.

2) Your lack of understanding of science and history is astounding.

3) Use paragraph spacing in your longer posts.

That's all because, again, this is very much off-topic.

Ocean, you think Pat Robertson represents up to 40% of the US? Zilam and Pat-Robertson racist line of thinking do represent a sizable percentage of American Christians... I do hope its less than 20%..

either way.. it is still less than 5% of "Christianity"...

I want to make sure that the "other peoples" are aware.. that these "Zilams".. and these "Pat-Robertsons" are a very small part of Christianity...

We are not racist...not all of us.

Disclaimer: I am in no way attempting to make one way seem better than the other, nor am I questioning anyone's faith. I am merely pointing out something I have noticed.

I've noticed something interesting about movies and stories concerning the Devil and how it relates to Christianity. The primary thing I've noticed is that the Devil is always beaten back by words and prayers and some old dude giving the right incantations in the proper order in Christo-centric films.

As a Muslim, I am taught that when it comes to the Devil, I must fight him and his minions with my body as well. Think of Rambo vs. Satan in that capacity. It's why we prepare so strongly, body and mind, for Jihad.

I'm wondering if this is just one of the fundamental differences in how we view the great Adversary, or if it is truly of the Christian belief that words will be enough. Any insight into this will be appreciated.


Any insight?

OK, it merely highlights yet another way in which the two great trouble-making religions of our time have something in common.

i.e. they are both composed of cretins who actually believe that the devil exists

I'm wondering if this is just one of the fundamental differences in how we view the great Adversary, or if it is truly of the Christian belief that words will be enough. Any insight into this will be appreciated.

One of the big diffrences as far as I know with the words issue is that acording to the Bible, the mere mention of the name Jesus (when said with sincerity) is enough to scare the living (or more accurately un-living or...something) daylights out of Deamons and send them running back to wherever it is they run back to (hell presumably). I know this from a friend I have who was posessed and when her boyfriend prayed with her, when he said Jesus (the second word he said I think) she began clawing at herself and shaking vilonely.

Any insight?

OK, it merely highlights yet another way in which the two great trouble-making religions of our time have something in common.

i.e. they are both composed of cretins who actually believe that the devil exists

Did you have something useful to say. Or are you just one of these people who thinks that by ridiculing someone elses position, it makes your position better, even if you provide no reason why your position is valid.

i.e. they are both composed of cretins who actually believe that the devil exists

That is neither necessary, nor productive to the thread.

One of the big diffrences as far as I know with the words issue is that acording to the Bible, the mere mention of the name Jesus (when said with sincerity) is enough to scare the living (or more accurately un-living or...something) daylights out of Deamons and send them running back to wherever it is they run back to (hell presumably). I know this from a friend I have who was posessed and when her boyfriend prayed with her, when he said Jesus (the second word he said I think) she began clawing at herself and shaking vilonely.

Riiiiiight.

That is neither necessary, nor productive to the thread.

Here here (nice to see us agreeing on something)

Riiiiiight.

Do you have something intellegent or useful to say? I thought not. Post when you have something intellgent, sensable or useful to the discussion.

Okay just thought I would jump just into this madness.

Evolution vs. ID is neither necessary, nor productive to this thread.

Incidently, I am a devoted believer in Allah and the beauty and mystery of all of Creation, but I am taught that Allah strongly desires us to learn about it and the amazing complexity with which it was done.

That means a biology class comprised of more than just "The Creator did it, now go home". Evolution is real, the Universe is billions of years old, the Earth revolves around the Sun, illness is not caused in the humors, and you don't sneeze because the Devil is trying to take your soul.

Allah does not want us to be ignorant.

Do you have something intellegent or useful to say? I thought not. Post when you have something intellgent, sensable or useful to the discussion.

The irony of someone telling me to post intelligently when they can't spell basic words in immense.
And possession by demons? Come on.

One of the big diffrences as far as I know with the words issue is that acording to the Bible, the mere mention of the name Jesus (when said with sincerity) is enough to scare the living (or more accurately un-living or...something) daylights out of Deamons and send them running back to wherever it is they run back to (hell presumably). I know this from a friend I have who was posessed and when her boyfriend prayed with her, when he said Jesus (the second word he said I think) she began clawing at herself and shaking vilonely.


Wow, that's such an intelligent and useful contribution, not to mention entirely truthful. Top marks for spelling too.

Please share more of your wisdom with us.

That is neither necessary, nor productive to the thread.

It's a valid point - if your superstitions mean it offends you then feel free to just ignore it.

It's a valid point

No, actually it isn't. It's a flame. It's one that can go both ways. For instance if I were to point out your deliberate stupidity in not believing, there'd probably be a call to the mods.

Don't call me an idiot for believing and I won't call you an idiot for not. If people who believe discussing their beliefs bothers you, you do not have to enter the thread.

I've noticed something interesting about movies and stories concerning the Devil and how it relates to Christianity. The primary thing I've noticed is that the Devil is always beaten back by words and prayers and some old dude giving the right incantations in the proper order in Christo-centric films.

As a Muslim, I am taught that when it comes to the Devil, I must fight him and his minions with my body as well. Think of Rambo vs. Satan in that capacity. It's why we prepare so strongly, body and mind, for Jihad.

I'm wondering if this is just one of the fundamental differences in how we view the great Adversary, or if it is truly of the Christian belief that words will be enough. Any insight into this will be appreciated.

It's not words, as others, I think, have pointed out, but the intent and FAITH behind them.
This allows God and Christ to act through them.
The excorcisms you normally see form Hollywood are catholic in nature.
Protestants also have excorcisms, but they are less formal, and more group oriented, in nature.


And while Pat Robertson may suffer form teh delusion that he's some how a Christian, that doesn't mean I do.
The people he represents aren't christian but are actualy antithetical to what we true christians are.

why do you come up with such discriminatory point of views anyway? To compare two religions is nothing but to divide and consider people within two monolythic categories, which in fact are only creation of orientalistic perspectives. You cannot make generalizations over religions or anything else. There is not such a thing as christians are passifist and do not involve in violance or muslims are for jihad all the way. The world history is much more complicated than the clear-cut categorizations, especially when you consider the two world wars and the regional conflicts. The thing about devil and the ways to fight with it should only be considered in terms of cinema, which is an art of entertainment especially when it comes to movies with their center on devil and demons. Those are not manifestations of religious identities.

why do you come up with such discriminatory point of views anyway?

So asking questions is worse than going ahead with believing Hollywood manifested suppositions?

I'll keep that in mind.

The irony of someone telling me to post intelligently when they can't spell basic words in immense.
And possession by demons? Come on.

Since its impossible to prove wrong or right significently I suggest that you remove yourself from the area of speculation. And critisising spelling is useually the last refuge of the unintellegent. You cant criticise the nature of my point so you criticise the presentation. So this is why politics is about the victory of style over substance these days. Its not about your point, its about how well you can put your point across.

Strange, considering that Christians throughout the ages have been militant...the Knights, the Crusaders, the Warrior-Monks and so on...perhaps we see battle as a form of purifying the soul? Christ often saw enduring hardship as a means of spiritual ennoblement. Not necessarily warfare, I mean he was a pacifist, but he saw a healthy and pure body as a catalyst for a pure soul. In addition, many often view the Lord as a "man of war" (I detest the genderial assignment, but whatever), so this may have led Christianity to emerge as a warrior faith. Even today, especially in the USA, martial arts are now being taught within the Church as the "way of the Christian warrior." I think our ideas on why we engage in combat are different to the Islamic ones, which are perhaps embedded in the faith. We see it as a way of purifying ourselves and strengthening our faith. Islam may see it as a necessity.

Furthermore, our view of Satan is purely non-physical. Satan is seen as an Angel, an incorporeal being. He is twisted because of his distance from God, not because of punishment. He wages warfare on a mental battlefield, trying to lure followers near him to abate his loneliness. Thus, the battle in that respect is one of the mind.

Since its impossible to prove wrong or right significently I suggest that you remove yourself from the area of speculation. And critisising spelling is useually the last refuge of the unintellegent. You cant criticise the nature of my point so you criticise the presentation. So this is why politics is about the victory of style over substance these days. Its not about your point, its about how well you can put your point across.
All too true. The main reason why I find politics so reprehensible. This is off topic though :p

All too true. The main reason why I find politics so reprehensible. This is off topic though :p

I was using it to make a point. Two people just made basic flame comments of no signifcence to the thread


i.e. they are both composed of cretins who actually believe that the devil exists

and


Riiiiiight

And I pulled them both up on it. They then complained that I used bad spelling in my reprisal. Of course, the only reason they did that was they couldnt attack my point so they just attack the presentation. Just like in modern politics.

No, actually it isn't. It's a flame. It's one that can go both ways. For instance if I were to point out your deliberate stupidity in not believing, there'd probably be a call to the mods.

Don't call me an idiot for believing and I won't call you an idiot for not. If people who believe discussing their beliefs bothers you, you do not have to enter the thread.


That's open to debate. It's not a personally directed insult. And I don't report flames to the mods.

It's my perfect right to regard persons who believe in 'the Devil' as cretins if I so chose. I have to live in a world infected with religious bile and its legacy; I hardly think a throwaway remark in an internet forum is little more than pissing in the wind so to speak.

Furthermore, our view of Satan is purely non-physical. Satan is seen as an Angel, an incorporeal being. He is twisted because of his distance from God, not because of punishment. He wages warfare on a mental battlefield, trying to lure followers near him to abate his loneliness. Thus, the battle in that respect is one of the mind.

Really? Which denomination are you, if you don't mind my asking?

My (very) Catholic family seem to think of Satan as a physical being that resides in a physical place (albeit on another plane of existence), and not simply an incorporeal being. I believe they also think of angels as beings with physical presences, also, though I've never asked them directly. Satan does all the mental stuff that you describe, but they seem to think of him as an actual, physical entity.

Of course, it's silly to think that all Christians (or indeed, all Muslims) would think the same way about the Devil, so it's hardly surprising that there are different ideas.

And I pulled them both up on it. They then complained that I used bad spelling in my reprisal. Of course, the only reason they did that was they couldnt attack my point so they just attack the presentation. Just like in modern politics.



I've 'been pulled up on it'? Oh dear, how pompous can you get?


No, you made a ludicrous post and Kaledan rightly ridiculed you for it. You didn't actually make a point and your 'reprisal' consisted of just posting the same tiresome bleating twice, more or less word for word.


We all make the odd error but excessive bad spelling does make you look ignorant unfortunately, whether you chose to recognise that or not.

Really? Which denomination are you, if you don't mind my asking?

My (very) Catholic family seem to think of Satan as a physical being that resides in a physical place (albeit on another plane of existence), and not simply an incorporeal being. I believe they also think of angels as beings with physical presences, also, though I've never asked them directly. Satan does all the mental stuff that you describe, but they seem to think of him as an actual, physical entity.

Of course, it's silly to think that all Christians (or indeed, all Muslims) would think the same way about the Devil, so it's hardly surprising that there are different ideas.
I am not of any particular denomination any more, although I align myself most closely with the Catholic one. I am agnostic as to the nature of God (ie I do not assign gender nor form). My argument (and that of those like-minded) rests on that Angels are created of fire, not of earth. They are those a different form of existence altogether. They can take physical form, no doubt, but their true form is incorporeal. It would of course remain plausible that they would reside on alternate planes of existence.

I am not of any particular denomination any more, although I align myself most closely with the Catholic one. I am agnostic as to the nature of God (ie I do not assign gender nor form). My argument (and that of those like-minded) rests on that Angels are created of fire, not of earth. They are those a different form of existence altogether. They can take physical form, no doubt, but their true form is incorporeal. It would of course remain plausible that they would reside on alternate planes of existence.

Ahh, interesting, interesting. I'll have to ask my aunt about it next time she starts pestering me about the Devil and see what she thinks about that idea. If nothing else, it'll give her something to chew on for a while so she'll stop bothering me about my religion.

Ahh, interesting, interesting. I'll have to ask my aunt about it next time she starts pestering me about the Devil and see what she thinks about that idea. If nothing else, it'll give her something to chew on for a while so she'll stop bothering me about my religion.
What is your belief then, if I may ask?

BTW, if she does say anything, remind her that Angels are allegedly beings of fire. They are above humans in creation, and are different by the very stuff they are made of.

What is your belief then, if I may ask?

BTW, if she does say anything, remind her that Angels are allegedly beings of fire. They are above humans in creation, and are different by the very stuff they are made of.

I'm an unaffiliated Kemetic. I lean more towards Kemetic Traditionalism than Orthodoxy, but I'm not a member of any temple. Basically, a Kemetic is a modern day practicioner of the religion of Ancient Egypt (Kemet).

Ahh, so you see Angels as not being physical entities, because to be 'physical' they'd have to be 'like us', right? But if an Angel chose to appear in a form that you could see and touch, it could, yes? Would that form be of earth, though? Or is that ability to appear physically an attribute of being of fire? I never really get to hear people's ideas about the really interesting bits of Christian belief, unfortunately. More often, it's random quotation of scripture or senseless debates about the existence of God.

I'm an unaffiliated Kemetic. I lean more towards Kemetic Traditionalism than Orthodoxy, but I'm not a member of any temple. Basically, a Kemetic is a modern day practicioner of the religion of Ancient Egypt (Kemet).
Wow. Its a fascinating religion to practise. I am not sure of which gods it involves though. Would you worship such gods as Isis, Anubis and Amon-Re? Do you also practise the egyptian magic traditions? I myself espouse certain pagan beliefs, such as druidic witchcraft, as well as accept the notions of Chi/Ki/Zen (especially in healing/magic/martial arts), as I don't view them as distinct from christianity, but rather as potentially supplementary.

Ahh, so you see Angels as not being physical entities, because to be 'physical' they'd have to be 'like us', right? But if an Angel chose to appear in a form that you could see and touch, it could, yes? Would that form be of earth, though? Or is that ability to appear physically an attribute of being of fire? I never really get to hear people's ideas about the really interesting bits of Christian belief, unfortunately. More often, it's random quotation of scripture or senseless debates about the existence of God.
I believe their form is merely a physical manifestation. Energy is capable of changing forms theoretically. To each other they would, I assume, appear corporeal. To us they would seem incorporeal. They are more a mix of air and fire, we of water and earth. What I am sure of is that if they do exist, their form is incorporeal. So they should be able to assume a corporeal form. Why would they chose a physical manifestation though? It would make them more vulnerable (even if vulnerable is hardly the appropriate word here). In their incorporeal form we cannot even touch them. Angels, by the way, cannot become demons. They fall, but retain their angelic powers. Humans typically are what become demons. These are my own personal beliefs anyway. What the Bible states is that they are of fire, and it distinguishes Fallen Angels from demons usually.

I think I may be quite late getting to the thred.

Eph.6:10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

the battle against the devil is mostly a spiritual battle, or it has been in my life. I hope things don't get physical any time soon, I am out of shape.

Wow. Its a fascinating religion to practise. I am not sure of which gods it involves though. Would you worship such gods as Isis, Anubis and Amon-Re? Do you also practise the egyptian magic traditions? I myself espouse certain pagan beliefs, such as druidic witchcraft, as well as accept the notions of Chi/Ki/Zen (especially in healing/magic/martial arts), as I don't view them as distinct from christianity, but rather as potentially supplementary.

Yup, that's correct. I know a whoooole bunch of the devotees of Aset (Isis) and Yinepu (Anubis), and a handful of the children of Amun-Re (most dealing specifically with the Amun aspect). My patron is Set and I also honour Yinepu and Djehuty (Thoth). And Netjer (divinity) as a whole, of course. I'm not very well versed in the various ideas of heka ('magic'), unfortunately. A little about the ideas that are common to everyday life (for instance, the spoken word itself is a form of heka), but nothing beyond that.

I agree with you that many things that are considered 'pagan' beliefs are quite compatible with Christianity. Heck, I know a Christian Druid who often shows up the local pagan gatherings. He makes really excellent mead, heh heh.


I believe their form is merely a physical manifestation. Energy is capable of changing forms theoretically. To each other they would, I assume, appear corporeal. To us they would seem incorporeal. They are more a mix of air and fire, we of water and earth. What I am sure of is that if they do exist, their form is incorporeal. So they should be able to assume a corporeal form. Why would they chose a physical manifestation though? It would make them more vulnerable (even if vulnerable is hardly the appropriate word here). In their incorporeal form we cannot even touch them. Angels, by the way, cannot become demons. They fall, but retain their angelic powers. Humans typically are what become demons. These are my own personal beliefs anyway. What the Bible states is that they are of fire, and it distinguishes Fallen Angels from demons usually.

See, I've always had the idea that all demons were Angels that were in Lucifer's bunch when God kicked them out. I imagine that's probably from Hollywood more than any other source, though, so it's not exactly reliable information. What do you think would cause a human to become a demon, rather than just another damned soul suffering in Hell?

Oh, and if Keruvalia's still around, what's the Islamic idea of angels and demons? I know angels, at least, are part of Islamic belief, but what is their form and function? How about the Satan's minions?

I think I may be quite late getting to the thred.



the battle against the devil is mostly a spiritual battle, or it has been in my life. I hope things don't get physical any time soon, I am out of shape.
:p Well Christianity advocates physical betterment nonetheless as a means of promoting spiritual growth. No real way of getting out of it ;P

See, I've always had the idea that all demons were Angels that were in Lucifer's bunch when God kicked them out. I imagine that's probably from Hollywood more than any other source, though, so it's not exactly reliable information. What do you think would cause a human to become a demon, rather than just another damned soul suffering in Hell?

Oh, and if Keruvalia's still around, what's the Islamic idea of angels and demons? I know angels, at least, are part of Islamic belief, but what is their form and function? How about the Satan's minions?
Oh no. Distance from God is ultimately what would cause a human to become a demon, or an Angel to fall. For a human, the suffering is entrapment in his/her own misery. Say, if someone is filled with hatred, it will consume them and torture them. Distance from God would cause the human to become a demon, with no means of alleviating his/her self-consumption, much like a plant can't survive without sunlight. Its far more internal than external in my view. This is why I can reconcile the concepts of chi/ki/zen with it.

As for mixing various pagan/non-christian concepts with christian ones, its true that many of these concepts can actually blend in with Christianity quite harmoniously. Chi/ki/zen move towards the balance of soul and body. Reincarnation does not preclude the concept of heaven (say, Nirvana) or hell. Many of the lines drawn between religions I think are needless. Christianity officially bans magic, but to my knowledge the Bible is used as a tool for political control, thus I only agree with its fundamental ideas, such as respecting one another and so on.

:p Well Christianity advocates physical betterment nonetheless as a means of promoting spiritual growth. No real way of getting out of it ;P
yeah, I know "my body is a temple" and blah blah blah..........I really am trying.;)

Oh no. Distance from God is ultimately what would cause a human to become a demon, or an Angel to fall. For a human, the suffering is entrapment in his/her own misery. Say, if someone is filled with hatred, it will consume them and torture them. Distance from God would cause the human to become a demon, with no means of alleviating his/her self-consumption, much like a plant can't survive without sunlight. Its far more internal than external in my view. This is why I can reconcile the concepts of chi/ki/zen with it.

As for mixing various pagan/non-christian concepts with christian ones, its true that many of these concepts can actually blend in with Christianity quite harmoniously. Chi/ki/zen move towards the balance of soul and body. Reincarnation does not preclude the concept of heaven (say, Nirvana) or hell. Many of the lines drawn between religions I think are needless. Christianity officially bans magic, but to my knowledge the Bible is used as a tool for political control, thus I only agree with its fundamental ideas, such as respecting one another and so on.

So, human -> demon is sort of like a star becoming a black hole? Hmm, at least, that's how it sounds to me!

I do agree that many of the 'hard' lines drawn between religion are needless, but people being what they are, need to separate and categorise things.

So, human -> demon is sort of like a star becoming a black hole? Hmm, at least, that's how it sounds to me!

I do agree that many of the 'hard' lines drawn between religion are needless, but people being what they are, need to separate and categorise things.
Its sort of an implosion, yes. I am not sure if you actually turn into a red scaly creature with horns, but what I do believe is that its a matter of destruction from within.

There are certain separations between each religion that I would not circumvent, but on some issues they have many compatible themes. Nevertheless, as you say, for most people, nothing but the most stringent dividers will do.

Its sort of an implosion, yes. I am not sure if you actually turn into a red scaly creature with horns, but what I do believe is that its a matter of destruction from within.

There are certain separations between each religion that I would not circumvent, but on some issues they have many compatible themes. Nevertheless, as you say, for most people, nothing but the most stringent dividers will do.

I've always thought of the red, scaley creature with horns so often seen as an easy visual representation of the sort of corruption that is referred to by the concept of a 'demon', rather than an actual image of what a demon 'physically' is. Still, who knows, right?

Indeed, there are definitely differences between various religions, but at the core, it's all about faith, isn't it? At the very least, most true religious people have that in common.

I've always thought of the red, scaley creature with horns so often seen as an easy visual representation of the sort of corruppthat is referred to by the concept of a 'demon', rather than an actual image of what a demon 'physically' is. Still, who knows, right?
Verily. Japanese demonic representations have to be some of the oddest I've ever seen though. Personally, I would expect demons to resemble a malevolent shadow of their former selves.

Indeed, there are definitely differences between various religions, but at the core, it's all about faith, isn't it? At the very least, most true religious people have that in common.
True, but the extent to which that reasoning applies is that both assassin and artist have focus of mind. They are still two worlds apart though.

I get the distinct impression that some people who represent and interpret Islam (i.e., religious leaders) are far more conservative on social matters than most Christian leaders.

At least Pat Robertson takes his clothes off when he does his wife.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17789981-13762,00.html

To me, if you're more conservative than Pat Robertson, you're in serious need of help.

Oh, and if Keruvalia's still around, what's the Islamic idea of angels and demons? I know angels, at least, are part of Islamic belief, but what is their form and function? How about the Satan's minions?

Angels and Demons are an integral part of Islam. Angels are viewed in the same light as the Jewish belief: they're primarily messengers. Hebrew for Angel is "malakh", Arabic "malak", Greek "angelos", Sanskrit "angiras" - all mean messenger.

We hold to Moses's order of angels as described by Maimonides:

1. Hayyoth ha-Qadesh
2. Ophanim
3. Erelim
4. Chashmalim
5. Seraphim
6. Malakhim
7. Elohim
8. Bene Elohim
9. Cherubim
0. Ishim

Gabriel, an Ophanim who sits at the left hand of Allah and presides over Paradise, delivered Qur'an to Muhammed.

Satan (Samael) is also seen in the Jewish light. Not a rebel, as no Angel can rebel against Allah, and not evil but fulfilling a necessary duty - such as the duty of accusation in the book of Job.

The Jinn (demons) are beings created with free will, living on earth in a world parallel to mankind. Like humans, they too are required to worship Allah and follow Islam. Their purpose in life is exactly the same as ours, as Allah says:

"I did not create the Jinn and mankind except to worship Me"
[Surah Ad-Dhariyat, 51:56]

Our "Great Adversary" is Iblis, the most powerful Jinn. It is Iblis who brings to us the temptation to carouse and drink and debauch and turn away from Allah. Iblis is not Allah's adversary as Allah can have no adversary. Iblis is man's adversary.

It gets a hell of a lot more complicated than that, but I hope that's nutshell enough.

At least Pat Robertson takes his clothes off when he does his wife.

How do you know, ya perv?

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17789981-13762,00.html

Well ... the 3 people who actually listen to that guy and accept his fatwah probably don't get laid anyway.

I get the distinct impression that some people who represent and interpret Islam (i.e., religious leaders) are far more conservative on social matters than most Christian leaders.

At least Pat Robertson takes his clothes off when he does his wife.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17789981-13762,00.html

To me, if you're more conservative than Pat Robertson, you're in serious need of help.
Oh the Pope, the cardinals, as well as the Orthodox Patriarchs and bishops, and many representatives of other big denominations can get very conservative in their outlook.

How do you know, ya perv?


Heard many a die-hard Bible-thumping fundamentalist who thought that Pat Robertson was weak on sin say that in the marriage bed, it's OK to have sex and be naked.

True, but the extent to which that reasoning applies is that both assassin and artist have focus of mind. They are still two worlds apart though.

You have a point there. I guess there's no escaping division, but I really wish it could be more civilised than it often is. People seem to have a habit of making difference into an excuse to fight, even when there is really no reason to.

Heard many a die-hard Bible-thumping fundamentalist who thought that Pat Robertson was weak on sin say that in the marriage bed, it's OK to have sex and be naked.

Aye ... just as I've heard it clearly stated - even the link you provided - that everything in the marriage bed is ok except sodomy, according to Islam.

So ... *shrug* ... one nutbag who nobody takes seriously does not doctrine make.

You have a point there. I guess there's no escaping division, but I really wish it could be more civilised than it often is. People seem to have a habit of making difference into an excuse to fight, even when there is really no reason to.
I'll agree here. Even within the Christian church, most denominations cannot stand each other and will bicker over the tiniest, most idiotic differences that are largely inconsequential to their beliefs. Likewise, faiths seem to blow those differences that do exist among themselves (or they interpret as existing...for instance, in the past Christianity rejected the idea of Taoism, failing to realise it too advocates the body being the temple in which the soul rests) out of proportion to the extent that it leads to wars between them. All too human I guess. :rolleyes:

Aye ... just as I've heard it clearly stated - even the link you provided - that everything in the marriage bed is ok except sodomy, according to Islam.

So ... *shrug* ... one nutbag who nobody takes seriously does not doctrine make.

I'm not saying it makes doctrine -

but I am saying that the typical Islamic conservative nut is a bit further off than the typical Christian conservative nut.

Still don't see Pat Robertson telling people to go out and blow themselves up either.

Still don't see Pat Robertson telling people to go out and blow themselves up either.

I don't see anybody telling people to go out and blow themselves up.

I don't see anybody telling people to go out and blow themselves up.
Haven't read too many Wahhab fatwas, eh?

Angels and Demons are an integral part of Islam...

<snip!>

It gets a hell of a lot more complicated than that, but I hope that's nutshell enough.

Wow!

That's really, really fascinating. Looks like I'm going to have to do a bit of reading!

So, the Jinn are required to follow Islam. Do they all actually do it, or are they like humans in that not every Jinn does? Because if Iblis follows Islam like he's meant to, why is he such an arse?

I don't see anybody telling people to go out and blow themselves up.

Abu Hamza? Imam (as far as I understand the term) on trial in UK:

"The child who stands in front of a tank with a stone, if he had a weapon or bomb, first he would go and hug the tank. He blows up with the tank. A child doesn't see in his age an expensive loss to die a martyr in the cause of God, or in the cause of the holy places for the Muslims..."

From a transcipt of one of his sermons. Other stuff includes: "kept terrorism "manual" which was dedicated to Osama Bin Laden and suggested a list of high-profile international targets, a London court was told on Wednesday...11-volume "Encyclopaedia of Afghani Jihad", which also "contained information on how to make bombs and booby traps, manufacture weapons and engage in secret communication"

And the man's only famous because he _kept_ doing it despite police survaillance. I'm sure there are many such folk (of a variety of religions) calling for blowing things up.

Wow!

That's really, really fascinating. Looks like I'm going to have to do a bit of reading!

So, the Jinn are required to follow Islam. Do they all actually do it, or are they like humans in that not every Jinn does? Because if Iblis follows Islam like he's meant to, why is he such an arse?
And to further those questions...are Jinn the same thing as Djinn? Does the word Genie have anything to do with it (I think it comes from Djinni)?

I never knew that Islam stated a human's purpose as worshipping Allah only. I mean Christianity has clauses to that effect, yet it states that the overarching aim for manking is to raise to lesser godhood, just slightly beneath Angels.

I've 'been pulled up on it'? Oh dear, how pompous can you get?

No, you made a ludicrous post and Kaledan rightly ridiculed you for it. You didn't actually make a point and your 'reprisal' consisted of just posting the same tiresome bleating twice, more or less word for word.

We all make the odd error but excessive bad spelling does make you look ignorant unfortunately, whether you chose to recognise that or not.

You havent supported your position one iota. You have just said that you believe that I am stupid for believing that people can be demoically posessed and that the devil exists. Does that contribute anything to the discussion? No. Does it examine any view point in any detail? No. Does it provide evidence or support of an alternative viewpoint? No. Is it the case of "I cant support my own view so I'll insult others to make mine look better"? Yes. Criticise me for spelling mistakes all you want. It doesnt change the fact that my point stands. All you have done is ridicule my position with no reason to and in a way that adds nothing to the discussion. There is a significent diffrence between looking ignorent and being ignorent.

Interesting point about deamons and hell in Christianity. The Bible says that Hell was originally created for Lucifer and his cohorts, not humans

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Does Islam agree with that idea?

One of the big diffrences as far as I know with the words issue is that acording to the Bible, the mere mention of the name Jesus (when said with sincerity) is enough to scare the living (or more accurately un-living or...something) daylights out of Deamons and send them running back to wherever it is they run back to (hell presumably). I know this from a friend I have who was posessed and when her boyfriend prayed with her, when he said Jesus (the second word he said I think) she began clawing at herself and shaking vilonely.

Most cases of demonic possession are more to do with mental illnesses, social problems, or relationship woes than any supernatural affect. What else was happening in the friend's life at this point in time?

Elgesh']Most cases of demonic possession are more to do with mental illnesses, social problems, or relationship woes than any supernatural affect. What else was happening in the friend's life at this point in time?

Her life was quite normal. The only signifcent thing was that she was in a Wiccan coven, but that was normal for her, and had been for the better part of a year or so.

I wouldn't know. The word "infidel" is never once used in Qur'an.

I don't know if anyone has replied to this yet but...

Depending on how you translate it,the word 'Kafir' is mostly always(Heh,oxymoron) considered Infidel.There is a sura called Sura Al Kafirin,and the word appears a good amount of times in the Quran.

I have Muslim background,so no attacks please.

Since its impossible to prove wrong or right significently I suggest that you remove yourself from the area of speculation. And critisising spelling is useually the last refuge of the unintellegent. You cant criticise the nature of my point so you criticise the presentation. So this is why politics is about the victory of style over substance these days. Its not about your point, its about how well you can put your point across.

...but, you don't put your point across successfully. How can I take your argument seriously if you aren't willing to correct your spelling and grammar? Obviously you do not care about presenting your argument or yourself well, as you do not take the time to run spellcheck or proofread what you write.
As to your actual argument, you talk about possessions by demons... so how can anyone take that seriously?

Her life was quite normal. The only signifcent thing was that she was in a Wiccan coven, but that was normal for her, and had been for the better part of a year or so.

2 folk in a relationship; one a christian pray-er, t'other in a wiccan coven. Tension much? Had joined said coven recently (less than a year). From? Anyway, just getting into a different subculture. Why? From context, it's a younger couple - late teens early 20s?

Anyhoo, I can't know them or their exact circumstances, so I won't dismiss their experience out of hand, but it doesn't sound at first stab as being particularly inexplicable :confused:

You havent supported your position one iota. You have just said that you believe that I am stupid for believing that people can be demoically posessed and that the devil exists. Does that contribute anything to the discussion? No. Does it examine any view point in any detail? No. Does it provide evidence or support of an alternative viewpoint? No. Is it the case of "I cant support my own view so I'll insult others to make mine look better"? Yes. Criticise me for spelling mistakes all you want. It doesnt change the fact that my point stands. All you have done is ridicule my position with no reason to and in a way that adds nothing to the discussion. There is a significent diffrence between looking ignorent and being ignorent.A note... his behavior isn't outright flaming. It does, however, qualify as trolling [if mild for such] - i.e., just posting to get reactions and looking for trouble.

Valdania should therefore avoid doing so in the future.

Disclaimer for Keruvalia:
Since you are Trying to find out about Christians.. I want it to be clear that

Individuals like Zilam and Pat Robertson represent only the so called "US Christian Right" ..
which amounts to less than 5% of Christianity.

Most of us Christians do not have a particular Pro-Israel Bias.
We are not all biased against any particular group or race.
We are not all racist against the Arabs ar Muslims.


First off, Don't compare me to the scumbag Pat Robertson. I loathe that man. Second off, I am not of the right wing, I tend to be very liberal in the political sense. Thirdly, I have a pro-israel bias frankly because i have hebrew heritage(although minut) on my mother's side. Finally, I AM NOT RACIST!!!! Re-read what I wrote "The only thing I have against..." No where in there did I say " I hate them towel heads" or "Dang muslims are burning in hell" I love all peoples the same, just some things about different groups I don't like or believe. So with that being said, I think you owe me an apology.

...but, you don't put your point across successfully. How can I take your argument seriously if you aren't willing to correct your spelling and grammar? Obviously you do not care about presenting your argument or yourself well, as you do not take the time to run spellcheck or proofread what you write.

Its quite simple. You behave as an intelectually honest individual, considering substance over presntation.


As to your actual argument, you talk about possessions by demons... so how can anyone take that seriously?

Again quite simple. You do not dismiss the case on the basis of its nature (IE you dont dismiss cases of demonic possesion out of hand simply because they claim its a case of demonic possession) and instead you look at the details of the case itself and do not allow personal or cultural prejudices to interfeare with your analysis

Evolution vs. ID is neither necessary, nor productive to this thread.

Incidently, I am a devoted believer in Allah and the beauty and mystery of all of Creation, but I am taught that Allah strongly desires us to learn about it and the amazing complexity with which it was done.

That means a biology class comprised of more than just "The Creator did it, now go home". Evolution is real, the Universe is billions of years old, the Earth revolves around the Sun, illness is not caused in the humors, and you don't sneeze because the Devil is trying to take your soul.

Allah does not want us to be ignorant.


That is something I believe as well, which is why I am shunned by most "christians" and churches, sometimes being seen as a heretic.I think evolution happened by God's will. Thats my official stance. Thats what I like about Moslems. They seek to use science to prove and explore the beauty of God's work, whilst most "christians" are ignorant and narrow minded.

This is because I'm guessing, by knowing the Word, it means that you live by it and you therefore will not succumb to the temptations of the Satan.[/quote[
[QUOTE=Keruvalia]Ok this is good. This is the line of thinking I wanted. Is there scripture to back this up?

Marvellous! Eight pages worth of hoping no-one would post my point before me :D

Matthew 4

The Temptation of Jesus

1Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. 2After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
4Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"

5Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"

7Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

8Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9"All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."

10Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'"

11Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

As you can see - from the actions of Jesus himself - thorough knowledge of scripture (presumably reinforced with appropriate amounts of willpower) is enough to smack the bad dude down. Of course there is the snag of knowing the Word, living by it and having the strength of will to continue to do so - no matter what. That's where the issue of the Holy Spirit comes into play; God gives us His strength to resist what we wouldn't be able to by ourselves.

That is something I believe as well, which is why I am shunned by most "christians" and churches, sometimes being seen as a heretic.I think evolution happened by God's will. Thats my official stance. Thats what I like about Moslems. They seek to use science to prove and explore the beauty of God's work, whilst most "christians" are ignorant and narrow minded.

Ouch - that must suck. You should come visit me sometime lol - I have pretty much exactly the same view. The same goes for all these people that try to disprove, say, the Ten Plagues by saying 'oh no the Nile was just full of red clay' which apaprently does happen - so what? Why would God do miracles by magic beans rather than using a natural phenomenon which He, incidentally, created anyway?

Hmm... I'm sure I had something more of a point than that... oh well :D

See, I've always had the idea that all demons were Angels that were in Lucifer's bunch when God kicked them out. I imagine that's probably from Hollywood more than any other source, though, so it's not exactly reliable information. What do you think would cause a human to become a demon, rather than just another damned soul suffering in Hell?

I think the idea is more from Dante and Milton than Hollywood meself...

Ouch - that must suck. You should come visit me sometime lol - I have pretty much exactly the same view. The same goes for all these people that try to disprove, say, the Ten Plagues by saying 'oh no the Nile was just full of red clay' which apaprently does happen - so what? Why would God do miracles by magic beans rather than using a natural phenomenon which He, incidentally, created anyway?

Hmm... I'm sure I had something more of a point than that... oh well :D


Yeah, I think God used evolution as a test of faith really. Made it to where it seemed like you had to choose one side over another. he knew by planting all this evidence for evolution, that it would shake the belief of many, and He wanted to see who would stay faithful. Well at least thats what i Think

I think the idea is more from Dante and Milton than Hollywood meself...

I imagine that's where Hollywood pulls much its crap from and puts into movies (after it's suitably bastardised, of course.) From Dante, anyway. I haven't read any of Milton's work (though I plan to), so I can't really comment.

I don't think it is that Satan is more powerful than man so much as man lets him have power.

The devil is a spirit, he has no physical/ tangible body.
We on the other hand have both body and spirit. This makes us potentially more powerful than he.

The way he gets power over us is little by little, breaking down defences.
The less we give heed to him, the less power he has over us and vice versa.

Now as to how to battle him? The is but one way. Through the authority of God (which is not as widespread as one might think) coupled with faith.

The bible speaks of how the apostles were unable to cast out a spirit despite having authority given them by Christ. why? because of their lack of faith.

Another instance in the bible speaks of some other people trying to cast out spirits but instead the spirits revile them saying "who are you? what authority do you have?" (basically)

Only through excercising the authority of God through faith can Satan be bested, and this is done by verbally expressing that authority and commanding the spirit to leave. He cannot refuse if both authority and faith are present.

Well, let me begin by saying that Christianity and Islam, is. The same shit.
Belives in the same God, etc.. Both belive in Jesus. Both say that Jesus will come back and so on. Only difference is that chrches and mosques are a little bit different from the outside, and inside also...

The other differences have more to do as differences between middle easteners and europeans.

My 8 cents

I am, however, a complete pacifist. More than most people around here.
Yet you are prepared for jihad?

I don't believe that there is much practical difference between the two religions. Conservatives and fundamentalists of both promote similar policies.

I am, however, a complete pacifist. More than most people around here.
Yet you are prepared for jihad?

I asked some Christians that I know about the question in the original post today. The best, and most common, answer I got was that Christians believe that Satan exists on Earth only in the hearts and souls of people so there is no need for a physical struggle.

Haven't read too many Wahhab fatwas, eh?

Of course not ... why would I? Why would anybody?

Yet you are prepared for jihad?

Yes, of course. Jihad isn't always a physical struggle, sometimes it is a mental or spiritual one. I am, however, physically ready as well if that need should arise.

And to further those questions...are Jinn the same thing as Djinn? Does the word Genie have anything to do with it (I think it comes from Djinni)?

Yes and yes.

I never knew that Islam stated a human's purpose as worshipping Allah only. I mean Christianity has clauses to that effect, yet it states that the overarching aim for manking is to raise to lesser godhood, just slightly beneath Angels.

That's Mormonism, right? Latter Day Saint? I believe you said you were LDS. It is an interesting viewpoint. But, yes, Qur'an tells us we are here to only worship Allah. Worship in both the sense of venerate as well as study.

Interesting point about deamons and hell in Christianity. The Bible says that Hell was originally created for Lucifer and his cohorts, not humans

Does Islam agree with that idea?

A little further than that, Hell is also where truly evil humans will go. Those who, for instance, murder the innocent and do not repent - it is sketchy whether one can repent after death or not.

Depending on how you translate it,the word 'Kafir' is mostly always(Heh,oxymoron) considered Infidel.There is a sura called Sura Al Kafirin,and the word appears a good amount of times in the Quran.

I have Muslim background,so no attacks please.

No no ... no attacks. I've heard this said before. However, the key difference is what the word "infidel" means.

The average Westerner thinks we believe all non-Muslims to be "infidels" when, in fact, the actual thought process behind the kafir is reserved for those who seek to do us harm because we are Muslim. For example, a person who believes we should all be shot in the back of the head with bacon soaked bullets would be considered kafir.

Just being an unbeliever isn't worthy of death or even reproachment.

I imagine that's where Hollywood pulls much its crap from and puts into movies (after it's suitably bastardised, of course.) From Dante, anyway. I haven't read any of Milton's work (though I plan to), so I can't really comment.


You imagine Hollywood pulls much of it's crap from?

I don't recall the bit in the Divine Comedy where Adam Sandler got a bit shouty then was revealed as a sensitive bloke underneath all the rage (Much Hilarity but a moment of heartwarming sensitivity ensues)....

or have i been watching the wrong Hollywood movies?

You imagine Hollywood pulls much of it's crap from?

I don't recall the bit in the Divine Comedy where Adam Sandler got a bit shouty then was revealed as a sensitive bloke underneath all the rage (Much Hilarity but a moment of heartwarming sensitivity ensues)....

or have i been watching the wrong Hollywood movies?

Heh, sadly(?), the Divine Comedy does not feature Adam Sandler.

No no, I meant that Hollywood movies about Teh Grate Battel!!! between Heaven and Hell seem to look to Dante and, I suppose, Milton for basic ideas about the nature of Hell and the Devil and so forth.