NationStates Jolt Archive

ASSUME that the worst has indeed happened. My poor little nation of 6 pints has become a socialist/communist state (for the sake of argument pretend socialism and communism are the same). I am a capitalist. I don't want to live in a socialist country, so I sling my bag over my shoulder and head for the border. Am I allowed to leave? If not, why not? If not, aren't you violating my rights? If not, why not? And what happens if lots and lots of people want to leave? Do you let them go or not? If not, why not?

Whoo! Double bolded thread title.

Anyway. Socialism doesn't prevent anyone from leaving

Go ahead and leave. To be quite frank I think it would massively benefit the nation - if the greedy folks who only work for themselves are free to leave then there's no problem with the whole "no incentive" thing. Ideally, only those who were really committed to the country would stay voluntarily. That's why communism works well on a small scale, but not on a large scale.

ASSUME that the worst has indeed happened. My poor little nation of 6 pints has become a socialist/communist state (for the sake of argument pretend socialism and communism are the same). I am a capitalist. I don't want to live in a socialist country, so I sling my bag over my shoulder and head for the border. Am I allowed to leave? If not, why not? If not, aren't you violating my rights? If not, why not? And what happens if lots and lots of people want to leave? Do you let them go or not? If not, why not?

OK. Now, going along with this, it would appear that the government turns into the worst, most evil, petty and tyrannical government ever (Note the ugly, short border guard has shifty eyes and smokes his cigarette in an odd way. You, as the brave, capitolist hero (6 feettall, strong jawline and blue eyes) must escape from the nefarious clutches of the lefties. Of course, you are not allowed to leave! Of course we violate your rights (assume that all leftists are evil for the sake of argument), and stick you in a 're-education' camp (insert maniacal cackle here) where you team up with a group of like-minded freedom loving dissidents with romantic but tragic pasts, and lo! With capitolist pluck and ingenuity, you manage to escape! and marry the girl with the firm, full breasts!

I have to cut back on the thrillers...

Go ahead and leave. To be quite frank I think it would massively benefit the nation - if the greedy folks who only work for themselves are free to leave then there's no problem with the whole "no incentive" thing. Ideally, only those who were really committed to the country would stay voluntarily. That's why communism works well on a small scale, but not on a large scale.

On a small scale, yes. However, a nation wouldn't be anywhere close to the level small enough for communism; so, the experienced investors and businessmen would leave and you'd see an influx of the really bad types who'd want to take advantage of the system and set up black markets and the like.

IIRC, the Berlin Wall was built because people were fleeing East German in droves.

ASSUME that the worst has indeed happened. My poor little nation of 6 pints has become a socialist/communist state (for the sake of argument pretend socialism and communism are the same). I am a capitalist. I don't want to live in a socialist country, so I sling my bag over my shoulder and head for the border. Am I allowed to leave? If not, why not? If not, aren't you violating my rights? If not, why not? And what happens if lots and lots of people want to leave? Do you let them go or not? If not, why not?

Resistance is futile you will be assimilated......I mean of course you can leave, just tell all your friends in your new country to visit for the re-education I mean drugs shit I mean beautiful views.

OK. Now, going along with this, it would appear that the government turns into the worst, most evil, petty and tyrannical government ever (Note the ugly, short border guard has shifty eyes and smokes his cigarette in an odd way. You, as the brave, capitolist hero (6 feettall, strong jawline and blue eyes) must escape from the nefarious clutches of the lefties. Of course, you are not allowed to leave! Of course we violate your rights (assume that all leftists are evil for the sake of argument), and stick you in a 're-education' camp (insert maniacal cackle here) where you team up with a group of like-minded freedom loving dissidents with romantic but tragic pasts, and lo! With capitolist pluck and ingenuity, you manage to escape! and marry the girl with the firm, full breasts!

I have to cut back on the thrillers...


You win!

On a small scale, yes. However, a nation wouldn't be anywhere close to the level small enough for communism; so, the experienced investors and businessmen would leave and you'd see an influx of the really bad types who'd want to take advantage of the system and set up black markets and the like.

IIRC, the Berlin Wall was built because people were fleeing East German in droves.
Propaganda!

It was built so the capitalist pigs couldn't come in and corrupt eveyone with their greed

sure you can leave, but we're sending all the drug addicts, pedophiles and habitual criminals with you, so don't be surprised if our neighbors quickly become less welcoming to immigrees.

On a small scale, yes. However, a nation wouldn't be anywhere close to the level small enough for communism; so, the experienced investors and businessmen would leave and you'd see an influx of the really bad types who'd want to take advantage of the system and set up black markets and the like.

IIRC, the Berlin Wall was built because people were fleeing East German in droves.

Not necessarily. Some will, of course, but then again you could argue that a lot of people have the potential to put personal material gain on the back burner, as long as they aren't indoctrinated at an early age to believe the whole greed is good thing. The whole thing about 'human nature' being entirely selfish seems silly to me when clearly humans are social animals and have evolved to have things like morality precisely because teams are usually more successful than individuals.

However, this would mainly apply to people like doctors, teachers, civil servants, scientists etc...to get ahead in buiness you often have to be ruthless and selfish, and investors who make money out of doing no work are probably not interested in contributing to society much. So I see what you mean about there being a shortage of those types.

On the Berlin wall...I would have tried to flee East Germany and not because I disagree with socialism - purely because it was an authoritive and corrupt form of communism.

OK. Now, going along with this ... With capitolist pluck and ingenuity, you manage to escape! and marry the girl with the firm, full breasts!

I have to cut back on the thrillers...

Not sure about the rest of your novel, but I like this part!

Not sure about the rest of your novel, but I like this part!

Here here! Firm, full-breasted girls love capitalists!

Here here! Firm, full-breasted girls love capitalists!
Obviously. They made her breasts!

Obviously. They made her breasts! the east germans could make fake boobs in the early 80s if you didn't mind the sand bag feel and the massive scarring... which some people don't.

the east germans could make fake boobs in the early 80s if you didn't mind the sand bag feel and the massive scarring... which some people don't.


Wrong. Just wrong.

Anywho ... although I loiks imagining and talking about pert, firm breasts I feel we're getting a touch off-topic ...

It seems to me that just about every socialist/communist regime invented promptly imprisons all of its citizens within its borders w/o even the hope or the prospect of the aforesaid citizens getting their hands on pert, firm breasts *shakes head sadly*.

It seems to me that anyone who actually lives under an evil system ... err ... socialist system would get up and leave as soon as possible. My point - given this tendency ... are socialist systems viable? Would socialists prevent emigration? If so, doesn't that tend to undermine the point of socialism - y'know end of the state, feeing mankind, promoting democracy etc etc

Wrong. Just wrong.

Anywho ... although I loiks imagining and talking about pert, firm breasts I feel we're getting a touch off-topic ...

It seems to me that just about every socialist/communist regime invented promptly imprisons all of its citizens within its borders w/o even the hope or the prospect of the aforesaid citizens getting their hands on pert, firm breasts *shakes head sadly*.

It seems to me that anyone who actually lives under an evil system ... err ... socialist system would get up and leave as soon as possible. My point - given this tendency ... are socialist systems viable? Would socialists prevent emigration? If so, doesn't that tend to undermine the point of socialism - y'know end of the state, feeing mankind, promoting democracy etc etc

wait are you suggesting that there are no socialist countries that have democracy or allow emigration?

Wrong. Just wrong.

Anywho ... although I loiks imagining and talking about pert, firm breasts I feel we're getting a touch off-topic ...

It seems to me that just about every socialist/communist regime invented promptly imprisons all of its citizens within its borders w/o even the hope or the prospect of the aforesaid citizens getting their hands on pert, firm breasts *shakes head sadly*.

It seems to me that anyone who actually lives under an evil system ... err ... socialist system would get up and leave as soon as possible. My point - given this tendency ... are socialist systems viable? Would socialists prevent emigration? If so, doesn't that tend to undermine the point of socialism - y'know end of the state, feeing mankind, promoting democracy etc etc

If people agree to it, it works. It would work with every other system, however, so there's nothing special.

It seems to me that anyone who actually lives under an evil system ... err ... socialist system would get up and leave as soon as possible.

You're generalising everyone based on your own views. I personally find it incredulous that anyone would like to live in an ultra capitalist system, with people who are not able/cannot find work along with their dependents (Elderly relatives, children) are starving to death, homeless and dying of easily preventable disease, where crime is rife and the police excessively authoritive to help combat this, and where corporations can do whatever they like regardless of the damage they do to society.

However, obviously some people see such a place as paradise.

Even when socialism has really being run in a shitty way, such as in the USSR, there were still a lot of people who preferred it. I mean, nowadays you get a lot of older folks in eastern European countries who long for the "good old days".

ASSUME that the worst has indeed happened. My poor little nation of 6 pints has become a socialist/communist state (for the sake of argument pretend socialism and communism are the same). I am a capitalist. I don't want to live in a socialist country, so I sling my bag over my shoulder and head for the border. Am I allowed to leave? If not, why not? If not, aren't you violating my rights? If not, why not? And what happens if lots and lots of people want to leave? Do you let them go or not? If not, why not?
I think you might get some more interesting answers if you brought up this:
Aren't many leftists trying to 'free the world from capitalism' or something of the sort? I mean, usually when people are talking to me about opposition to capitalism, they aren't just talking about their country, they want everybody to be free of it.

So, my question:What do I do in that case if I don't want to live in a socialist system? I can't very well leave, can I?
Or have I been talking to the wrong people, and are you a 'socialism in one country' sort?

wait are you suggesting that there are no socialist countries that have democracy or allow emigration?


Err ... no. Not exactly. Depends on what you mean by 'socialist countries'. I'm tending to think of the USSR, Mao's China, Castro's Cuba ... you get the idea. Now, of course, there always was some emigration of a kind but not the possibility of mass emmigration.

As for democracy, even the USSR had democracy of a kind. I believe *slaps brain cells hard to counter the effect of a nice bottle of ... something red & alcoholic* that the word 'soviet' meant 'village council' or somesuch and the whole system was based on democratic 'soviets', although the reality was different.

Besides, they had one-man-one-vote over there. Stalin was the man and he got the vote :)

If people agree to it, it works. It would work with every other system, however, so there's nothing special.


I'm not quite sure I understand your point. Could you elaborate? Thanx

Even when socialism has really being run in a shitty way, such as in the USSR, there were still a lot of people who preferred it. I mean, nowadays you get a lot of older folks in eastern European countries who long for the "good old days".

Sounds like Stockholm Syndrome...:D

ASSUME that the worst has indeed happened. My poor little nation of 6 pints has become a CAPITALIST/LIBERTERIAN ANARCHIST state (for the sake of argument pretend CAPITALISM and LIBERTERIAN ANACRCHISM are the same). I am a SOCAILIST. I don't want to live in a CAPITALIST country, so I sling my bag over my shoulder and head for the border. Am I allowed to leave? If not, why not? If not, aren't you violating my rights? If not, why not? And what happens if lots and lots of people want to leave? Do you let them go or not? If not, why not?

My point, i guess, is that like socialsim, capitalism annoys (to say the least) an awful lot of people.

[note for the below i assume the exsistance of a viable socialist state]
It seems to me that anyone who actually lives under an evil system ... err ... CAPITALIST system would get up and leave as soon as possible. My point - given this tendency ... are CAPITALIST systems viable? Would CAPITALISTS prevent emigration? If so, doesn't that tend to undermine the point of CAPITALISM - y'know end of the state, freeing mankind, promoting democracy etc etc

Note; please forgive my caricature of the arguement but i think the question is interesting posed this way <insert smiley>

You're generalising everyone based on your own views.

Yes, of course I am. It's both inaccurate and fun! Seriously tho' doesn't everybody?

I personally find it incredulous that anyone would like to live in an ultra capitalist system, with people who are not able/cannot find work along with their dependents (Elderly relatives, children) are starving to death, homeless and dying of easily preventable disease, where crime is rife and the police excessively authoritive to help combat this, and where corporations can do whatever they like regardless of the damage they do to society.

The only sensible answer to this is your own deathless prose ...
"You're generalising everyone based on your own views."

Here's another point: you make a number of assumptions about the 'ultra-capitalist' system. People dying in the streets if they're poor etc. The point about capitalism is that it makes this kind of thing far less likely than any other system ... merely because there is more wealth about, more jobs etc. There is, for example, no direct link between capitalism and "police excessively authoritive". There is direct historical precedent for this under the USSR and socialism tho' ... just review the Great Terror.


However, obviously some people see such a place as paradise.

Depends upon how you want to define paradise? A place where most can eat cheaply? A place were most have a home? clothes? And a standard of living beyond that of the mortifying cold, thirst and hunger? I would say that's paradise compared to the rest of human history. And socialism/communism has proved time and time again that it cannot provide these things.

Even when socialism has really being run in a shitty way, such as in the USSR, there were still a lot of people who preferred it. I mean, nowadays you get a lot of older folks in eastern European countries who long for the "good old days".

'Shitty way'. That's a very euphemistic term for a system that promoted mass-murder, state-sponsored torture and mass starvation for 'class enemies'. Face it, socialism - as has been practiced - has been pretty evil. My view is that, owing to a number of factors, all socialist/communist (and I don't mean social democracies here) inevitably trend toward statist, human-rights abusing situations. There is precedent for this.

Go ahead and leave. We don't need the likes of you anyway. You will only hurt the revolution.

ASSUME that the worst has indeed happened. My poor little nation of 6 pints has become a CAPITALIST/LIBERTERIAN ANARCHIST state (for the sake of argument pretend CAPITALISM and LIBERTERIAN ANACRCHISM are the same). I am a SOCAILIST. I don't want to live in a CAPITALIST country, so I sling my bag over my shoulder and head for the border. Am I allowed to leave? If not, why not? If not, aren't you violating my rights? If not, why not? And what happens if lots and lots of people want to leave? Do you let them go or not? If not, why not?

Yes, of course. Under a capitalist system, you're largely free to do what you like. "Freedom has many difficulties and democracy is not perfect, but we have never had to put a wall up to keep our people in, to prevent them from leaving us" JFK at Berlin, June 26, 1963


My point, i guess, is that like socialsim, capitalism annoys (to say the least) an awful lot of people.


True ... but capitalists won't wall you in and shoot you if you try to leave.


[note for the below i assume the exsistance of a viable socialist state]


But this is the point ... you can't assume it because socialism is not viable


It seems to me that anyone who actually lives under an evil system ... err ... CAPITALIST system would get up and leave as soon as possible. My point - given this tendency ... are CAPITALIST systems viable? Would CAPITALISTS prevent emigration? If so, doesn't that tend to undermine the point of CAPITALISM - y'know end of the state, freeing mankind, promoting democracy etc etc


People are free to leave capitalist systems (see above). Generally, the population flow during the Cold War years was from Socialist to Capitalist societies, was it not?

Are capitalist systems viable? Depends. When did capitalism start? Do we have enough data to make a judgment? When did mercantilism end and capitalism start? Assume, for the sake of argument, it was when Adam Smith published his wealth of nations some ... 230 or so years ago. Is it still going strong? Yes. Does there appear to be evidence of its expansion? the growth of capitalist society in Eastern Europe would indicate so. When did Socialism begin ...? 150 odd years ago. How long did 'socialism' last in the USSR? Around, what 70 years? In which country was the communist revolution supposed to start? England. Did it start there? No. It seems the historic evidence for the viability of capitalism is strong. The historic evidence for the viability of socialism is weak or negative.


Note; please forgive my caricature of the arguement but i think the question is interesting posed this way <insert smiley>

You are forgiven - and indeed encouraged - for the caricature. The question posed in this way was interesting. Thanks for raising it.

6 pints

Go ahead and leave. We don't need the likes of you anyway. You will only hurt the revolution.


This is not really a terribly sensible answer to a serious point. And, note, I will be taking my pert, firm-breasted girl with me (see earlier posts).


6 pints.

I think you might get some more interesting answers if you brought up this:
Aren't many leftists trying to 'free the world from capitalism' or something of the sort? I mean, usually when people are talking to me about opposition to capitalism, they aren't just talking about their country, they want everybody to be free of it.

So, my question:What do I do in that case if I don't want to live in a socialist system? I can't very well leave, can I?
Or have I been talking to the wrong people, and are you a 'socialism in one country' sort?

Good points. especially this one ... What do I do in that case if I don't want to live in a socialist system? I can't very well leave, can I?

Why should I be forced to live under a political system with which I have no empathy/sympathy?

Are you asking if I am a 'socialism in one country' sort or are you raising it as point for discussion?

Yes, of course. Under a capitalist system, you're largely free to do what you like. "Freedom has many difficulties and democracy is not perfect, but we have never had to put a wall up to keep our people in, to prevent them from leaving us" JFK at Berlin, June 26, 1963

Yes but, under capitalism man is free in the double sense; free in the normal sense and free to sell his labour. Further capitalism, in the sense of elite control of the means of production, including the media, in antithisis to democracy.

[/QUOTE] True ... but capitalists won't wall you in and shoot you if you try to leave [/QUOTE]

I guess global economic, political, military and media hegemony almost negate this need. And secondly where would they leave to... The supposedly "socialist" states? Thirdly I douubt those who actually wanted to leave (especially those of the third world) have the economic of political means to do so (ie immigratioj restrictions)



[/QUOTE]But this is the point ... you can't assume it because socialism is not viable. [/QUOTE]

My hypothetical was relying on socialism taking the place of capitalism in the real world (ie. that of the dominant powers) and vice versa capitalism relegated to the place of "socialism"



[/QUOTE] People are free to leave capitalist systems (see above). Generally, the population flow during the Cold War years was from Socialist to Capitalist societies, was it not? [/QUOTE]

It is a weak answer, but please the so called "socialsit countries"

[/QUOTE]Are capitalist systems viable? Depends.[/QUOTE]

Economically, perhaps. Socially and enviromentally, no.

[/QUOTE]When did capitalism start? Do we have enough data to make a judgment? When did mercantilism end and capitalism start? Assume, for the sake of argument, it was when Adam Smith published his wealth of nations some ... 230 or so years ago. Is it still going strong? Yes. Does there appear to be evidence of its expansion? the growth of capitalist society in Eastern Europe would indicate so. When did Socialism begin ...? 150 odd years ago. How long did 'socialism' last in the USSR? Around, what 70 years? In which country was the communist revolution supposed to start? England. Did it start there? No. It seems the historic evidence for the viability of capitalism is strong. The historic evidence for the viability of socialism is weak or negative.[/QUOTE]

I agree mostly. But, the evidence for fuedalism was equally strong. And again
the arqument from "actually exsisting socilism" is weak. But i think the pupose of the thread is trying to avoid this argument...


[/QUOTE]You are forgiven - and indeed encouraged - for the caricature. The question posed in this way was interesting. Thanks for raising it. [/QUOTE]

My pleasure

P.S sorry about the bad formatting, can't get it to work properly!

Yes but, under capitalism man is free in the double sense; free in the normal sense and free to sell his labour. Further capitalism, in the sense of elite control of the means of production, including the media, in antithisis to democracy.

True ... but capitalists won't wall you in and shoot you if you try to leave [/QUOTE]

I guess global economic, political, military and media hegemony almost negate this need. And secondly where would they leave to... The supposedly "socialist" states? Thirdly I douubt those who actually wanted to leave (especially those of the third world) have the economic of political means to do so (ie immigratioj restrictions)



[/QUOTE]But this is the point ... you can't assume it because socialism is not viable. [/QUOTE]

My hypothetical was relying on socialism taking the place of capitalism in the real world (ie. that of the dominant powers) and vice versa capitalism relegated to the place of "socialism"



[/QUOTE] People are free to leave capitalist systems (see above). Generally, the population flow during the Cold War years was from Socialist to Capitalist societies, was it not? [/QUOTE]

It is a weak answer, but please the so called "socialsit countries"

[/QUOTE]Are capitalist systems viable? Depends.[/QUOTE]

Economically, perhaps. Socially and enviromentally, no.

[/QUOTE]When did capitalism start? Do we have enough data to make a judgment? When did mercantilism end and capitalism start? Assume, for the sake of argument, it was when Adam Smith published his wealth of nations some ... 230 or so years ago. Is it still going strong? Yes. Does there appear to be evidence of its expansion? the growth of capitalist society in Eastern Europe would indicate so. When did Socialism begin ...? 150 odd years ago. How long did 'socialism' last in the USSR? Around, what 70 years? In which country was the communist revolution supposed to start? England. Did it start there? No. It seems the historic evidence for the viability of capitalism is strong. The historic evidence for the viability of socialism is weak or negative.[/QUOTE]

I agree mostly. But, the evidence for fuedalism was equally strong. And again
the arqument from "actually exsisting socilism" is weak. But i think the pupose of the thread is trying to avoid this argument...


[/QUOTE]You are forgiven - and indeed encouraged - for the caricature. The question posed in this way was interesting. Thanks for raising it. [/QUOTE]

My pleasure

P.S sorry about the bad formatting, can't get it to work properly![/QUOTE]


Thanx for the thread. I will reply tomorrow. I'm off to bed. Night night zzzZZZzz

Yes but, under capitalism man is free in the double sense; free in the normal sense and free to sell his labour. Further capitalism, in the sense of elite control of the means of production, including the media, in antithisis to democracy.

True ... but capitalists won't wall you in and shoot you if you try to leave [/QUOTE]

I guess global economic, political, military and media hegemony almost negate this need. And secondly where would they leave to... The supposedly "socialist" states? Thirdly I douubt those who actually wanted to leave (especially those of the third world) have the economic of political means to do so (ie immigratioj restrictions)



[/QUOTE]But this is the point ... you can't assume it because socialism is not viable. [/QUOTE]

My hypothetical was relying on socialism taking the place of capitalism in the real world (ie. that of the dominant powers) and vice versa capitalism relegated to the place of "socialism"



[/QUOTE] People are free to leave capitalist systems (see above). Generally, the population flow during the Cold War years was from Socialist to Capitalist societies, was it not? [/QUOTE]

It is a weak answer, but please the so called "socialsit countries"

[/QUOTE]Are capitalist systems viable? Depends.[/QUOTE]

Economically, perhaps. Socially and enviromentally, no.

[/QUOTE]When did capitalism start? Do we have enough data to make a judgment? When did mercantilism end and capitalism start? Assume, for the sake of argument, it was when Adam Smith published his wealth of nations some ... 230 or so years ago. Is it still going strong? Yes. Does there appear to be evidence of its expansion? the growth of capitalist society in Eastern Europe would indicate so. When did Socialism begin ...? 150 odd years ago. How long did 'socialism' last in the USSR? Around, what 70 years? In which country was the communist revolution supposed to start? England. Did it start there? No. It seems the historic evidence for the viability of capitalism is strong. The historic evidence for the viability of socialism is weak or negative.[/QUOTE]

I agree mostly. But, the evidence for fuedalism was equally strong. And again
the arqument from "actually exsisting socilism" is weak. But i think the pupose of the thread is trying to avoid this argument...


[/QUOTE]You are forgiven - and indeed encouraged - for the caricature. The question posed in this way was interesting. Thanks for raising it. [/QUOTE]

My pleasure

P.S sorry about the bad formatting, can't get it to work properly![/QUOTE]


Thanx for the thread. I will reply tomorrow. I'm off to bed. Night night zzzZZZzz

Are you asking if I am a 'socialism in one country' sort or are you raising it as point for discussion?
Raising it for discussion.

So if we're assuming that socialism and communism are the same, are we assuming that they are both the same as socialism or both the same as communism?