NationStates Jolt Archive

For me at least I dont think it matters whether "God" (whatever that might be) exists or not. If God was to suddenly appear out of nowhere and provide all the skeptics (Atheists) with undeniable proof that he/she/it exists I believe without a shadow of a doubt that they would continue to dispute his/her/its existance. And the same goes to people who believe in a "God". If there was proof that "God" does not exist they would continue to worship him/her/it and would attempt to dispute this newfound proof.

I was inspired to write this after reading, Towing Jehovah by James Morrow.

The issue is this: there is no such thing as undeniable proof of the existance, or non-existance of God. Nor could there ever be.

The issue is this: there is no such thing as undeniable proof of the existance, or non-existance of God. Nor could there ever be.

Ok then lets make this hypothetical. What if there was?

For me at least I dont think it matters whether "God" (whatever that might be) exists or not. If God was to suddenly appear out of nowhere and provide all the skeptics (Atheists) with undeniable proof that he/she/it exists I believe without a shadow of a doubt that they would continue to dispute his/her/its existance. And the same goes to people who believe in a "God". If there was proof that "God" does not exist they would continue to worship him/her/it and would attempt to dispute this newfound proof.

I was inspired to write this after reading, Towing Jehovah by James Morrow.
I think it's irrelevant for a different reason. Even if it were shown to me that any specific God, I probably wouldn't follow that God. It doesn't matter to me first in my considerations of religion whether a God exists or not, but rather whether I'd even bother to follow him/her/it. If there were one that I would follow, then I'd proceed to asking whether that God existed, but so far, none yet.

I think it's irrelevant for a different reason. Even if it were shown to me that any specific God, I probably wouldn't follow that God. It doesn't matter to me first in my considerations of religion whether a God exists or not, but rather whether I'd even bother to follow him/her/it. If there were one that I would follow, then I'd proceed to asking whether that God existed, but so far, none yet.

So even if God existed you wouldn't believe in him/her/it? Excellent, you just supported my main point!

There are many people that would, and do, dispute proof. If God were to suddenly appear in front of a big crowd, and demonstrate his power, it would be enough to convince me he exists. But whether he exists or not, God isn't exactly the type of person I'd want to spend eternity with. From my point of view God's only the lesser of two evils. I'd rather just wander around the earth for eternity as a sort of, rogue soul.

So even if God existed you wouldn't believe in him/her/it? Excellent, you just supported my main point!
No. I said that it was a situation in which it was shown to me that a specific God existed.
What I said was't that I wouldn't believe in that God, I said that I would not follow that God. There is a difference, I can believe that a God exists, and also not follow Him/Her/It.

For me at least I dont think it matters whether "God" (whatever that might be) exists or not. If God was to suddenly appear out of nowhere and provide all the skeptics (Atheists) with undeniable proof that he/she/it exists I believe without a shadow of a doubt that they would continue to dispute his/her/its existance. And the same goes to people who believe in a "God". If there was proof that "God" does not exist they would continue to worship him/her/it and would attempt to dispute this newfound proof.

I was inspired to write this after reading, Towing Jehovah by James Morrow.
Oh, there are more skeptics than are dreamt of in your simple proposal. ;)

I believe it doesn't matter if God exists; not because his existence would suddenly make people believe or not believe, but because he doesn't really exist. He exists unreally.

All we have of God is what we hold in our hearts, which reside in our imagination.

Oh, there are more skeptics than are dreamt of in your simple proposal. ;)

I believe it doesn't matter if God exists; not because his existence would suddenly make people believe or not believe, but because he doesn't really exist. He exists unreally.

All we have of God is what we hold in our hearts, which reside in our imagination.

The whole point of this "simple proposal" was to get Atheists to suspend their disbelief in a God, and for Theists to suspend their belief in one so we can have a discussion on the topic at hand. Its far too easy to say that, "Oh, well, its irrelevant because he doesn't exist!". Now, if people were simply going to respond with a statement similar to that then what would the point of this thread be? We all have our religions, (whether it be no religion at all) and for the sake of this hypothetical discussion I ask that people pretend for a moment that anything is possible, namely, whether God is real, or if he isnt.

Well, it basically is irrelevant whether or not God exists. All God is is the embodiment of a moral code. It's the moral code that's ultimately important, not the embodiment of it. People hold onto morals and ethics because in their mind it feels right to do so and I doubt people would abandon their morals on the sayso of an authority figure. Well, let me rephrase that: I would like to think that people wouldn't abandon their morals on the sayso of an authority figure.

God does exist and I've seen the proof. I doubt anyone would believe me if I told them, though.

God does exist and I've seen the proof. I doubt anyone would believe me if I told them, though.
...irrelevence by proxy?
JK
Give it a shot. There's no real reason for anyone to believe you OR to disbelieve you. And if you feel most people wouldn't believe you, IMO, this is a GREAT time to go with your conscience and let people know what happened to you. As is, an argument along these lines isn't getting much further than anecdotal evidence versus logic.
Seriously though this thread tends to put the whole god thing to brass tacks.
Besides i'm fairly sure god would have better things to do than try to prove its existence to this motley lot. ;)

*snip*
If God was to suddenly appear out of nowhere and provide all the skeptics (Atheists) with undeniable proof that he/she/it exists I believe without a shadow of a doubt that they would continue to dispute his/her/its existance.
*snip*
Well, if God was proved to exist I would not deny it. I would not worship the God though. (unless it was required under penalty of death or something, then i'd do the minimum amount of fake worship).

The whole point of this "simple proposal" was to get Atheists to suspend their disbelief in a God, and for Theists to suspend their belief in one so we can have a discussion on the topic at hand. Its far too easy to say that, "Oh, well, its irrelevant because he doesn't exist!". Now, if people were simply going to respond with a statement similar to that then what would the point of this thread be? We all have our religions, (whether it be no religion at all) and for the sake of this hypothetical discussion I ask that people pretend for a moment that anything is possible, namely, whether God is real, or if he isnt.
Okay; I'll pretend he's not real and that he exists.

Since we can't prove, one way or the other, the existence of god(s), that existence, or lack thereof, is irrelevant. What is relevant is that we exist and how we behave.

For me at least I dont think it matters whether "God" (whatever that might be) exists or not. If God was to suddenly appear out of nowhere and provide all the skeptics (Atheists) with undeniable proof that he/she/it exists I believe without a shadow of a doubt that they would continue to dispute his/her/its existance. And the same goes to people who believe in a "God". If there was proof that "God" does not exist they would continue to worship him/her/it and would attempt to dispute this newfound proof.

I was inspired to write this after reading, Towing Jehovah by James Morrow.


If there were "undeniable proof," by definition no one could deny it.

But yeah, I think god's actual existence is irrelevant. Not because of the reasons you said, but because a person can be good or evil, successful or unsuccessful, loved or unloved, happy or unhappy with or without the existence of god.

I disagree with the original post.

The existence of God matters a lot. Every culture in the history of mankind has had some god or gods. This indicates that mankind has an innate need for God.

"Proof" (by logical or scientific means) of the existence of God is what is irrelevant.

I disagree with the original post.

The existence of God matters a lot. Every culture in the history of mankind has had some god or gods. This indicates that mankind has an innate need for God.

"Proof" (by logical or scientific means) of the existence of God is what is irrelevant.
Since most religions have God as their creator, they would want God to have good qualities. So God stands for everything that is moral, correct, and just. Gives hope. (On the otherhand, the Greek God's were more of a reflection of humanity. Affairs, rapings, anger, despair, revenge, ... etc)

I disagree that man has an innate need for God. God provides a center that a person can rely on for moral/emotional support. God is just one way to achieve this support. People can believe in the moral, the correct, and the just; instead of believing in God, which is the symbol of the moral, correct, and just. Cut out the middle man, which is God.

Hopefully that made sense... Its partially what I believe anyways.

Mmhm. It doesn't bother me one way or another. I am comfortable following my own moral compass rather than one set in stone by milennia old texts. I don't think whether or not God exists is relevant to my life, 'cause i'm happy either way and I have my own perception on what makes a "good" person.

Mmhm. It doesn't bother me one way or another. I am comfortable following my own moral compass rather than one set in stone by milennia old texts. I don't think whether or not God exists is relevant to my life, 'cause i'm happy either way and I have my own perception on what makes a "good" person.
I'll capitalise on this opportunity before anybody else gets the idea....

Is your "moral compass" directly influenced by the rules and morality laid out by any major religion? One could, arguably, describe that as somewhat relevant as to whether or not God exists. Because, what if it turns out God doesn't exist and they've got it all wrong? That means you're still wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. Do you, then, feel as betrayed as those who followed God's ways?

I probably can already guess at the answer....I'd just like to hear your stance.

Simonist']I'll capitalise on this opportunity before anybody else gets the idea....

Is your "moral compass" directly influenced by the rules and morality laid out by any major religion? One could, arguably, describe that as somewhat relevant as to whether or not God exists. Because, what if it turns out God doesn't exist and they've got it all wrong? That means you're still wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. Do you, then, feel as betrayed as those who followed God's ways?

I probably can already guess at the answer....I'd just like to hear your stance.

Not really. I was baptised and confirmed Catholic, although I disagree with quite a few of the Vatican's policies. In fact, I can pick through the ten commandments if you'd really like, even though I have little interest in such a debate.

While I may agree with some of them - eg. "Don't kill", my justification is probably different.

Not really. I was baptised and confirmed Catholic, although I disagree with quite a few of the Vatican's policies. In fact, I can pick through the ten commandments if you'd really like, even though I have little interest in such a debate.

While I may agree with some of them - eg. "Don't kill", my justification is probably different.
Hmmm....no, as a practicing Catholic and a religion student, I don't think it'd be a good idea to 'pick through' the Commandments. Save that for another day, tiger.

But basically, if I understand correctly, you agree with the ideas, just not necessarily the reasons behind them? Fair enough.

Simonist']Hmmm....no, as a practicing Catholic and a religion student, I don't think it'd be a good idea to 'pick through' the Commandments. Save that for another day, tiger.

Haha. I went to a Catholic school too. Believe me, i've heard it all before. :p

I don't mean to pick on your beliefs at all. I don't think lowly of them, I simply disagree on certain points and I cannot say either way if there is or is not a God. As I said, religion doesn't particularly bother me...only the enforcing of it over all of society (and, I might add, enforced atheism is just as bad.).

But basically, if I understand correctly, you agree with the ideas, just not necessarily the reasons behind them? Fair enough.

More or less, but only some of the ideas. Others I disagree with.

Haha. I went to a Catholic school too. Believe me, i've heard it all before. :p

I don't mean to pick on your beliefs at all. I don't think lowly of them, I simply disagree on certain points and I cannot say either way if there is or is not a God. As I said, religion doesn't particularly bother me...only the enforcing of it over all of society (and, I might add, enforced atheism is just as bad.).
No worries on picking on my beliefs -- they don't have to be shared by all, that's why they're mine.

By and large, I believe the existence of God is only irrelevant to those who either choose not to believe in him or are completely apathetic to the whole idea. And even if it's irrelevant to them, that makes it in no way more or less relevant to the rest of the world. There's my thread-worthy $.02, I'm sticking to it.

Simonist']No worries on picking on my beliefs -- they don't have to be shared by all, that's why they're mine.

By and large, I believe the existence of God is only irrelevant to those who either choose not to believe in him or are completely apathetic to the whole idea. And even if it's irrelevant to them, that makes it in no way more or less relevant to the rest of the world. There's my thread-worthy $.02, I'm sticking to it.

Of course, it is relevant to many people. I don't think I ever denied that. Just not me personally. I live my life as I see fit, doing what I think is "good" - if there is a God, i'm happy to be judged by it after I die. If not, no matter. I guess you could count me under "apathetic", but if I were truly apathetic, I wouldn't be posting in this thread, no? :p

I went to a Catholic school, I'm not even Catholic (closest thing to it though, Lutheran). Let's not bash the Church, its a dead horse. Luther did it about five centuries ago. We get the point. Now, on to discussion!

For me at least I dont think it matters whether "God" (whatever that might be) exists or not. If God was to suddenly appear out of nowhere and provide all the skeptics (atheists) with undeniable proof that he/she/it exists I believe without a shadow of a doubt that they would continue to dispute his/her/its existance. And the same goes to people who believe in a "God". If there was proof that "God" does not exist they would continue to worship him/her/it and would attempt to dispute this newfound proof.
Now. I would like to propose another hypothetical situation:

If this "god" you speak of (notice the little "g," that's important) that "was to suddently appear out of nowhere and provide all the skeptics...with undeiable proof that exists" were to do this, how would we be assured that it was the correct god, [I]the god(s). For all we now, it is just a very powerful and knowledgable false god, totally unknown to, or possibly even an agent of, the god(s), sent here to Earth to mislead humanity or even test humanities devotion to the god(s).

It is generally un-godlike, in the Judeo-Christian and Muslim sense of the word, to reveal one-self to the followers. God (big "g" now) "revealed" Himself to Moses, but He was just a blindling light, or something else, in other words, He didn't reveal Himself, as we human's would like Him to: in a concrete form.

Even Jesus Christ, the only religious character in history where God sent a part of Himself to be killed at the hands of man. Dieties do not sacrafice themselves for mortals in other religions, especially Hinduism and paganism. Gods do not die. But even at that, to explain Christ's existence on this world, he was both humane and divine. Proof that this was an action of God's love, and was not Him revealing Himself to us.

Best to just keep going as it is, and keep worshiping the god(s) as we know them, and not this possible imposter. As a theist, I feel that faith is better than having my God's divine genitals being waved about before my face.

Of course, it is relevant to many people. I don't think I ever denied that. Just not me personally. I live my life as I see fit, doing what I think is "good" - if there is a God, i'm happy to be judged by it after I die. If not, no matter. I guess you could count me under "apathetic", but if I were truly apathetic, I wouldn't be posting in this thread, no? :p
Oh, we are a little self-centered, aren't we? ;) That second paragraph was my address to the OP, darling. And don't worry, I think you're living a "good" life. 'Course, I could be wrong, I've been wrong before.....

For me at least I dont think it matters whether "God" (whatever that might be) exists or not. If God was to suddenly appear out of nowhere and provide all the skeptics (Atheists) with undeniable proof that he/she/it exists I believe without a shadow of a doubt that they would continue to dispute his/her/its existance. And the same goes to people who believe in a "God". If there was proof that "God" does not exist they would continue to worship him/her/it and would attempt to dispute this newfound proof.

I was inspired to write this after reading, Towing Jehovah by James Morrow.Not quite answering the question you're postulating, but the way I see it is that people who do good/bad things in the name of God would do good/bad things without a God to invoke, and vice-versa. Their own beliefs about the presence/absence of God are just going to colour the way they justify what they did, whether that were for better or for worse...

Where it possibly isn't irrelevant is where someone uses the authority of God (with an arbitrary, even zero, level of personal belief) to lead others (who do believe, rightly or wrongly, in the deity as invoked by the aforementioned leader) to ultimately socially unjustifiable acts. The best we can hope for, then, is that there is a God (of whatever flavour) who can deal with the whole "vengence is mine" response and enacting the whole "mercy upon the eternal souls" thing that might be required in the aftermath for the victims. (But that this would be the 'nicest' solution doesn't make me believe it does happen, so I still consider the existence as not relevant to my life, given how I'm not inclined to kill people and death=>oblivion seems no worse to me than death=>nirvana under the circumstances as/when I should personally suffer it.)

what i love about what i don't know is how little it makes itself appear to resemble what anyone thinks they know about it. i've never found it in any church and if i had spent my life looking for it there i would have been very dissappointed. i've met something i can't tangably smell or see, filling the space between the trees, and that's good enough for me.

it doesn't take the place of how we togather make what each of us sees and feels. i've never felt it claim to be about that. i'm guessing it could be if it wanted to, though even that is only a guess. i'm pretty sure it knows what it's doing, staying out of the way of all that.

i wish i knew somehow that i could.

the big whatever it is isn't the only whatever it is i've ever met either. there's a much smaller whatever it is that hangs arround with me sometimes when it feels like it.

i can feel its weight when it curles up on top of my covers and i find its presence reasuring

i'm pretty sure there's lots of the smaller whatever it isis that they are

i'm glad there's something no one knows anything about

i wish more people stop trying to make each other hide from themselves that there is

or pretend that they do, which is what they call religeons and faiths and beliefs, some or all of which might be almost harmless, if only they weren't used by people to hide from themselves what they don't know and just accept that they don't

=^^=
.../\...

it doesn't take the place of how we togather make what each of us sees and feels. i've never felt it claim to be about that. i'm guessing it could be if it wanted to, though even that is only a guess. i'm pretty sure it knows what it's doing, staying out of the way of all that.
I, personally, think that's very important: that the subjective does not take the place of the objective, it simply exists in contrast to it.

Simonist']Oh, we are a little self-centered, aren't we? ;) That second paragraph was my address to the OP, darling. And don't worry, I think you're living a "good" life. 'Course, I could be wrong, I've been wrong before.....

Bah, you quoted my post, I assumed you were addressing me. :p

If God proved his existance, he would stop existing.

I love The hitch Hikers guide, has an answer for every debate :D