NationStates Jolt Archive

A simple, non-inflammatory question:
(okay, two, gimme a break)

1.) Why do Catholics fall back on the Papal Infallibility?

It was instituted in 1870!
1870!

Not like its always been that way.

2.) Abortion Critics: Why do you fall back on the Bible?

In Leviticus, it speaks of the soul being in the blood. Why not stop abortion prior to the formation of blood?

Plus, the whole abortion thing was settled before 1870, and Papal Infallibility (bad point, i know, just think about it)

A simple, non-inflammatory question:
(okay, two, gimme a break)

1.) Why do Catholics fall back on the Papal Infallibility?

It was instituted in 1870!
1870!

Not like its always been that way.

Why do the courts keep falling back on the Constitution? It was instituted in 1789!

You can't say its no good because its old. Go after the flaw you see in its logic.

2.) Abortion Critics: Why do you fall back on the Bible?

Well, it is supposed to be one of our spiritual guides and the text of our faith.

In Leviticus, it speaks of the soul being in the blood. Why not stop abortion prior to the formation of blood?

Plus, the whole abortion thing was settled before 1870, and Papal Infallibility (bad point, i know, just think about it)

I think its Samuel I (I don't honestly know the chapter and verse, but it has to be early)that refers to God knowing Samuel in th womb and seeing his soul before he was born.

Better question: if the Pope's infallible what what happen if he said "I am not the pope"? Would the whole structure of reality collapse or just most of it?

@Penetrobe: I don't think the point was that it is bad because it is old. You talked about the constitution, a founding principle of the USA. Papal infallibility is not a founding principle of Roman Catholicism but something that was just added in to suit the wishes of the Pope at the time.

(Apologies for spelling errors)

Why do the courts keep falling back on the Constitution? It was instituted in 1789!

You can't say its no good because its old. Go after the flaw you see in its logic.

I think the point is that the papal institution had existed for about 1800 years before someone decided that the pope was infallible.

Actually, the USA existed before we had the Constitution. It took a while to figure out what the founding principals were.

Also, Papal Infallabilty doesn't mean the Pope is right about everything he speaks of. Just matters of morality and theology. And since he is supposed to be the most moral, wise, learned blah blah when it comes to our faith, we pretty much consider him the final word in the matters.

Of course, he's not expecteed to just pull these things from his neither region. Just like any scientist or judge are expected to do in their respective fields, the Pope is supposed to show us how he came to these desiscions. And, much like the other two examples, its not just him, but the College of Cardinals as well as a small army of scholars and philosphers helping to figure these things out.

geez. papal infallibility is saved for those points of belief that are probably true but cant be deflinitively proven by the bible. like "mary was bodily assumed into heaven"

FINE, ill believe that mary was bodily assumed into heaven. wtf difference does it make one way or ther other? i may as well believe what the church teaches about it.

Better question: if the Pope's infallible what what happen if he said "I am not the pope"? Would the whole structure of reality collapse or just most of it?

hah. true if he could speak on more than faith and morals.
most of it? how can most of reality collapse?


I think the point is that the papal institution had existed for about 1800 years before someone decided that the pope was infallible.

hooray logic! my point exactly. why did it take 1800 years to make the guy perfect on faith and morals?

I don't know a single Catholic who has anything to do with the idea of Papal infallability, or really knows anything about it. I think most catholics, like I was, are in it for the community and the home-baked communion bread.

I don't know a single Catholic who has anything to do with the idea of Papal infallability
I know one. He's called...erm...the Pope.

I know one. He's called...erm...the Pope.

When I say "know" I mean "know", not "know of". When did you meet the Pope?

When I say "know" I mean "know", not "know of". When did you meet the Pope?
And the moral of this story is: be more careful with your language. No, I've not met the Pope, nor am I ever likely to. Though if I do, he'd better not try to convert me.

I think most catholics, like I was, are in it for the community and the home-baked communion bread.

people edure tourture and often die for this chief, its slightly more serious than that

people edure tourture and often die for this chief, its slightly more serious than that

I don't think any of the Catholics I know have ever been tortured. Several of them have died, but in most cases it's because they were upwards of eighty years old. What I mean is that your average churchgoer does not care about the dark secrets and archaic rituals. They're there for the hope and the community. Baptism to Burial, with Bake Sales in between.

And the moral of this story is: be more careful with your language. No, I've not met the Pope, nor am I ever likely to. Though if I do, he'd better not try to convert me.

Be careful, I hear he has Pooooowwwwwerrrrrrrs.

hah. true if he could speak on more than faith and morals.
most of it? how can most of reality collapse?

It's widely suspected that most of reality is a shoddy extension job welded onto the main body of reality by a cheap construction firm. Texas, the UN and John Prescott are often used to support this theory.

*nods sagely*

No, I've not met the Pope, nor am I ever likely to.
I've met the Pope. Well, the old Pope, JP2, not this one. I don't think I'll get to meet this one, he doesn't seem too keen on America or meeting the younger Catholics of the world.

I don't think any of the Catholics I know have ever been tortured. Several of them have died, but in most cases it's because they were upwards of eighty years old. What I mean is that your average churchgoer does not care about the dark secrets and archaic rituals. They're there for the hope and the community. Baptism to Burial, with Bake Sales in between.
So, because the Catholics that YOU know don't know shit about Papal Infallibility, that means that none of us do? That's a narrow-minded way to look at it. Is it then fair to say "All of the Wiccans I know are lesbians*, so that means that every Wiccan is a lesbian"? No, it's not. It's an unfounded assumption. Maybe the Catholics in your area simply aren't being taught properly. (Either that, or maybe they've been doing double-duty on my generation from birth out here....)
*true story

Actually, most people including Catholics don't know jack shit about the papal infallibility.

According to the dogma established in 1870, the Pope is only infallible when speaking "ex cathedra", that is when he officially, as Head of the Church and successor of St. Peter, defines and establishes doctrines that are binding for the Catholic church. Then, and only then, so the doctrine goes, will God inspire the Pope with infallible truth (to make damn sure the believers aren't told papal bull in His name...excuse the pun).

Other than that, the Pope can err like any other human being. That means, when Benedict XVI says "there is still milk in the fridge", but the fridge is in fact empty, God will not mysteriously materialise milk in a Vatican's fridge.

Clearer now?

I personally don't believe in papal infallibility.

As a Catholic Atheist who went to private Catholic school for 9 years, I feel fully qualified to answer your questions. Even though I am an atheist. :p

1.) Why do Catholics fall back on the Papal Infallibility?

Catholics do not. Catholic Church officials may rely on it, and Rome (what Catholic officials consider the "home office") may have it as official dogma- but that doesn't translate into diddly shit with your everyday catholic person. Just like with any religion, you have your nornal members, and then you have your sheep who follow exactly what the institution says; but with the Catholic church, there are far fewer of the latter- apart from the clergy the RCC is a more secular religion than most. You have a large percentage who are Catholic Atheists, or the "we better go just in case there is a hell" crowd, or the "God is dead, but I need something to do on Sunday morning" people, or the ever popular "this is crap, but if I don't go grandma/my mother will disown me" crowd.

2.) Abortion Critics: Why do you fall back on the Bible?

Once again, Catholics are as divided as the rest of the world on abortion. You are under the misconception that "all Catholics are pro-life" because that is the "official" stance of Rome. Homosexuality is "officially" a sin, but there are gay priests. And, just so you know- Catholics don't read the bible, that's what we pay the priest for. :p

Look at the US branch of the Church of England. They are split right down the middle on the gay bishop situation. It is the same in the RCC, except the officials "keep it in the house". You have the Dominicans, the Jesuits, Opus Dei...all the different orders who are just factions within the same denomination.

Simonist']
So, because the Catholics that YOU know don't know shit about Papal Infallibility, that means that none of us do? That's a narrow-minded way to look at it. Is it then fair to say "All of the Wiccans I know are lesbians*, so that means that every Wiccan is a lesbian"? No, it's not. It's an unfounded assumption. Maybe the Catholics in your area simply aren't being taught properly. (Either that, or maybe they've been doing double-duty on my generation from birth out here....)
*true story

I couldn't agree with NS Simonist more on this topic, it is strange that it's ok to stereotype and group everyone together when you are talking about certain things, but absolutely wrong when talking about other things.. Perhaps this idea that the Catholics that the original author knows don't know anything about Papal Infallibility either means they have not been properly educated, or perhaps he/she has not met enough Catholics in their day, and is focusing on one small topic when there is a big world around them. Either way, back off on the stereotypes.... You don't see anyone saying "every black person I know steals, thus all black people steal" and getting away with it.... Same rule applies with the Roman Catholic Church..