NationStates Jolt Archive

Now this is a hot topic in the US lately and been around simmering for a long time. Would building a wall the length of the Mexican border work? I think that some type of better control is needed here. I have no problem with honest Mexicans seeking work to improve there families lives. But some type of system needs to be devised to do it legally. The current form invites death to those that try and cross in the desert. Illegals are exploited in Mexico and the US. Something should be done. What are some solutions?

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C2E2C3BD-BC34-4BE7-8D8C-20716842A5AD.htm

I wanna see something openly fascist done for once by Bush and co.

I wanna see something openly fascist done for once by Bush and co.

Openly Fascist? Well then, if fascism equals smarts, then I'll be the first one to sign up for the new totalitarian regime. It's way beyond the time when a real wall should be put up. After 9/11, we actually put troops on the Mexican border for a few months, and actual border crossings diminished by 90+%. Give our boys something to do besides going to Iraq to protect our country. They can keep our country safe by just sitting on US soil, and keeping the illegals out.

I am against it. Without illegal mexican labor, about 90% of the small business in NYC would go under. (I exagerate, but only a little).

Actually, I find it more distasteful that the people in some Westchester and Putnam towns around here have recently been on a kick about how mexican day labor is 'destroying' american culture, and that they shouldn't have to change 'their' lifestyle to accomodate mexicans.

All I can say is that if these fuckers 'american culture/lifestyle' didn't involving getting the lawn mowed for next to nothing, and cheap restaurants, then there wouldn't be any mexicans to worry about. If they want rid of mexicans then they should do their own damn gardening, and get used to paying $3 for a coffee at the deli. Otherwise it's time for a cup of STFU.

Personally, I really have no problem with mexican immigrants, legal or illegal. In my experience I have found them to be hardworking productive individuals. Of course I do live in the NE, so possibly the situation is different closer to the border with the drugs problem and whatnot.

Won't happen, nor should it. Exactly how is illegal immigration a serious problem in today's day and age? There is little evidence to show it does anything but help the economy (a massive unskilled labor force willing to work for less than minimum wage is pretty damn useful) and the "security risk" bull**** is a red-herring. I agree with libertarians on very few things, but the open border policy is one of them.

well, i don't think there's any harm in building higher, stronger walls, since its purpose is to prevent illegal activity. what human right would it violate exactly? but i don't know about placing higher penalties for illegal immigration.

I always have said that we should just shoot these idiots like any criminal resisting arrest. Person breaks law, Person Runs, Officer pursues, Officer shoots.

So yes, a wall would be grand.

Actually, I find it more distasteful that the people in some Westchester and Putnam towns around here have recently been on a kick about how mexican day labor is 'destroying' american culture, and that they shouldn't have to change 'their' lifestyle to accomodate mexicans.

Most likely they are complaining about the fact that they can't get unskilled jobs anymore because the illegals work for much lower wages. The dude who runs that site had it right. Make it compulsory for all companies to pay equal wages regardless of illegal or legit workers. Illegal workers who blow the whistle may be deported, but they get paid in full for all their labour.

Might work. Might blow up. But it's better than sitting around complaining.

-snip-

LMAO. You're really not reading what's going on here. We're all for immigration here. It's the, here, let me make this very plain for you: ILLEGAL immigration that we're all pissed off about. IE, why we build a damned wall. And no, your business' in NYC would not fall apart. Businesses everywhere would not implode because all of a sudden we cut off the flow of illegals.

There are more than enough of them already. We don't need anymore slave labour in this damned country.

Unless of course, you like slavery. Then by all means, bring in more illegals. Why don't you just start a plantation while you're at it?

Yes, do it. The ladder producing sector of Mexico really needs that boost.

The only reasonable reason I can see as to building this wall would to help keep drugs out. Other than that why are we so angry towards illegal immigrants willing to do the shit we won't for an unlivable wage. To me it just sounds like more republican bullshit to turn our attention from the scandalous crap they're always up to and that goes for democrats as well but the 'pubs have their name written all over something like this.

If people are so pissed, how about we keep an eye on businesses that require great amounts of manual labor and make sure they're paying everyone a fair amount.

Most likely they are complaining about the fact that they can't get unskilled jobs anymore because the illegals work for much lower wages. The dude who runs that site had it right. Make it compulsory for all companies to pay equal wages regardless of illegal or legit workers. Illegal workers who blow the whistle may be deported, but they get paid in full for all their labour.

Might work. Might blow up. But it's better than sitting around complaining.

Actually most of these places have median home prices in the half million dollar range. The main bone of contention is that mexicans will hang around on main street when they are not working, and this is a clear and present danger to public safety. (Supposedly when they are not mowing lawns for a few bucks an hour, framing houses or working twelve hour shifts in the local restaurants, mexicans go on crime sprees or something. Boredom I suppose).

I really get the feeling that these people are quite happy to have the cheap labor - because they would never do these jobs themselves - but feel that mexicans should be confined to barracks or somesuch when they are not working.

The only reasonable reason I can see as to building this wall would to help keep drugs out. Other than that why are we so angry towards illegal immigrants willing to do the shit we won't for an unlivable wage. To me it just sounds like more republican bullshit to turn our attention from the scandalous crap they're always up to and that goes for democrats as well but the 'pubs have their name written all over something like this.

If people are so pissed, how about we keep an eye on businesses that require great amounts of manual labor and make sure they're paying everyone a fair amount.

That's a lie. There are broke-ass poor people, broke-ass poor AMERICAN CITIZENS looking for jobs that they can't find because an illegal has taken the job for less wage, and who gives less money back to the community than a LEGAL immigrant, or, OMG, maybe a CITIZEN would! Yeah, we have those you know. Citizens. You know? The legal habitants of this place?

Why are we angry? Because we're putting them into conditions of near slavery. It's indentured servitude.

And you're so full of shit. Right, the Democrats don't bring up loads of 'bullshit' to cover up their own scandalous actions. Of course they do. IT'S CALLED POLITICS!

God! Yo! God! We ate from the tree of knowledge! So why are there so many dumb people?

That's a lie. There are broke-ass poor people, broke-ass poor AMERICAN CITIZENS looking for jobs that they can't find because an illegal has taken the job for less wage, and who gives less money back to the community than a LEGAL immigrant, or, OMG, maybe a CITIZEN would! Yeah, we have those you know. Citizens. You know? The legal habitants of this place?

So because they were born in this country we should hold them over someone who was nearly willing to die to get here? Legally yes, morally no.

Why are we angry? Because we're putting them into conditions of near slavery. It's indentured servitude.

Read my last paragraph .

And you're so full of shit. Right, the Democrats don't bring up loads of 'bullshit' to cover up their own scandalous actions. Of course they do. IT'S CALLED POLITICS!

Let me quote myself after that one...
and that goes for democrats as well

Yes politics is nothing but scandalous lairs and sharp tongued thieves with an agenda, but hey here's an idea: If we all know this than why the fuck are we just putting up with it?

I hope you actually read my post this time around before lashing out with that republican whip.

Hell there should absolutly be a wall between Mexico and the states.In fact there should be a wall around the entire US.40 feet high!!Then we can fill it with water!!

I hope you actually read my post this time around before lashing out with that republican whip.

Pardon my Republican Whip. It's 2 AM and I've gotten 1 hour of sleep over the past 24 hours.

And, so you're point of holding citizens over illega immigrants. Yes, I do believe so, from both a Legal AND and Moral standpoint. What kind of a bullshit country are we if we let people who break the law, read here ILLEGAL immigrants, trample over law-abiding citizens of this country. Not only that, Illegal Immigrants hurt the Legal Immigrant community. Why? Because these poor legal immigrants can't get jobs because some illegal got them.

What kind of justice is that? A Citizen of this country can't get a job in HIS OWN COUNTRY, and some law-breaking guy should get it? And legal immigrants, who've spent years and years and hard earned money to get here, who got the paperwork, and went through all of the screenings, can't get jobs because some scumbag illegal immigrant took it from him.

That's bullshit. Ship every last illegal home.

Yes we need a wall and about 10,000 more border patrol at least. The border is a mess anyone can come in here. How can we have a war on terror and leave our border wide open that any Juan, Pablo or Osama can just walk in unnoticed with 2,000,000 other illegals per year. The border states are filled with crime Nuevo Laredo is a war zone. You're left wing talk about cheap labor how cheap is it when we have to pay $7,500 for every illegal child that goes to our schools and every mexican family has at least 5 kids that we have to pay for. How about all the hospitals that are shutting down here in california because farm workers usually don't have health insurance and American tax payers are being left paying the bill.
How about the millions of illegal immigrants in our prisons that cost us $30,000 to $50,000 per person per year. When you add it up illegal workers are not cheap.

Pardon my Republican Whip. It's 2 AM and I've gotten 1 hour of sleep over the past 24 hours.

Ouch, getting some rest would be a good idea.

Yes there should be a better method to legalize immigrants and imo make it easier for them to get into the country, but should there be a damn wall? Hell no, if you're going to build a wall why not put guard towers, electric fence, and mutant three headed dogs while we're at it.

Not only that, Illegal Immigrants hurt the Legal Immigrant community. Why? Because these poor legal immigrants can't get jobs because some illegal got them

Good point.

But we shouldn't be trying to keep people out of the country especially if they're willing to work so hard to get in it.

What kind of a bullshit country are we if we let people who break the law, read here ILLEGAL immigrants, trample over law-abiding citizens of this country. Not only that, Illegal Immigrants hurt the Legal Immigrant community. Why? Because these poor legal immigrants can't get jobs because some illegal got them.

Look. Mexicans don't come illegally to America, hide outside Wall Mart and shout "Look! There's an American! Let's steal his job!"

Why do they get the jobs and the citizenry don't? It's not because they dreamed up of stealing the jobs. If anyone is to blame, it's the companies that hire them for the lower wages. So what if the home grown Americans can't get jobs? It's because they either demand higher wages or rights the Mexicans do without. Most businesses keep an eye out for the bottom line and figure that if the Mexicans do as good a job, why on earth would they hire Americans?

If you really want to make a difference, right a letter to your congressman and get him to help pass a law that makes all wages for workers, whether illegal or not, equal with all the rights and benefits that go with it. Once companies lose their ability to pay single digit wages for illegals, why risk hiring them and losing out if someone rats on you?

Same old complaints I see. Attacking the symptoms but not the source.


What kind of justice is that? A Citizen of this country can't get a job in HIS OWN COUNTRY, and some law-breaking guy should get it?

If you wanted justice, you would probably not want to live in corporate America. Remember, it's all about the bottom line, not justice. Why else would companies outsource to India for software and China for cheap produced goods? Oh, that's right. Because it's more profitable.

Make it less profitable, and maybe you'll see those unskilled jobs come back to America. Otherwise, quite whining about the symptoms while ignoring the root of the problem.


That's bullshit. Ship every last illegal home.

What's bullshit is that you firmly believe in bailing water out of a ship with bowling ball sized holes in it rather than plugging said holes.

How can we have a war on terror and leave our border wide open that any Juan, Pablo or Osama can just walk in unnoticed with 2,000,000 other illegals per year.

Never mind that terrorists are usually fully legal and productive members of society.

Never mind that terrorists are usually fully legal and productive members of society.

Even when they aren't it's a cake walk for them to slip on through. Nevermind the war on terror, what ever happened to the war on drugs? did we surrender or just pull out?

Even when they aren't it's a cake walk for them to slip on through. Nevermind the war on terror, what ever happened to the war on drugs? did we surrender or just pull out?

No. The American public simply...forgot. And once that happens, those who run it can continue to quietly suck taxpayer money without having to produce evidence of progress. Or progress for that matter.

Even when they aren't it's a cake walk for them to slip on through. Nevermind the war on terror, what ever happened to the war on drugs? did we surrender or just pull out?

We lost. Big time.

Never mind that terrorists are usually fully legal and productive members of society.

Would you call the drug dealers and the millions of illegal violent felons in prison productive? Would you call the minimun wage farm worker who has 10 kids who are going to are public schools on the tax payers dime of $7,500 per student productive to our society? I don't I call it massive drain on the American Tax payer

Heh, I love this sort of thinking. So, lets say y'all build a wall across the US-Mexican border, all 2,000 or so miles of it. Wonderful job, searchlights, minefields, machine-gun posts probably - hell, you could even film the poor swine as they try and get across the wall and through the minefields, you'd all love that.

So, anyway, you build this huge, economically draining wall. Does this stop the illegal immigrants? Maybe a few, but the rest, not really. They just go the other way immigrants get into the US - by sea. They get in a boat and get smuggled into the mainland that way, or just swim. Congratulations, you've forced them to go the slightly more difficult route of going by sea, and your wall is now redundant. Same deal for drugs, except those can come in by air as well. Now how efficent does your wall sound? Or are you perhaps going to build a wall around the Western and Eastern coast of the USA to stop them that way? And then deploy SAMs to stop planes carrying them getting in?

Would you call the drug dealers and the millions of illegal violent felons in prison productive?

No, but I wouldn't call them terrorists either.

[QUOTE=DrunkenDove]No, but I wouldn't call them terrorists either.[/QUOTE

They are terrorists they are economic terrorist's draining resources from our schools which should be spent on American children. Millions of illegal prisoner's at the cost $30,000 to $50,000 per criminal. When they get sick or injured they go to our emergency rooms the most expensive place to get medical care and they have no insurance costing billions to the American taxpayer. Osama Bin Laden could only dream of costing America through terrorism what illegal aliens have cost the
American tax payer.

Heh, I love this sort of thinking. So, lets say y'all build a wall across the US-Mexican border, all 2,000 or so miles of it. Wonderful job, searchlights, minefields, machine-gun posts probably - hell, you could even film the poor swine as they try and get across the wall and through the minefields, you'd all love that.

So, anyway, you build this huge, economically draining wall. Does this stop the illegal immigrants? Maybe a few, but the rest, not really. They just go the other way immigrants get into the US - by sea. They get in a boat and get smuggled into the mainland that way, or just swim. Congratulations, you've forced them to go the slightly more difficult route of going by sea, and your wall is now redundant. Same deal for drugs, except those can come in by air as well. Now how efficent does your wall sound? Or are you perhaps going to build a wall around the Western and Eastern coast of the USA to stop them that way? And then deploy SAMs to stop planes carrying them getting in?

Its working well for Israel and going through the sea is not slightly more difficult it is much more difficult. We don't get huge ships full of merchendise from Mexico like we do from China most stuff from Mexico is shipped by trucks which can be easily inspected for human cargo.

They are terrorists they are economic terrorist's draining resources from our schools which should be spent on American children. Millions of illegal prisoner's at the cost $30,000 to $50,000 per criminal. When they get sick or injured they go to our emergency rooms the most expensive place to get medical care and they have no insurance costing billions to the American taxpayer. Osama Bin Laden could only dream of costing America through terrorism what illegal aliens have cost the
American tax payer.

"Economic terrorists?" Please.

It is estimated that the current prohibition on cannabis costs the American taxpayer at least two hundred and twenty-five billion a year. Does that mean that all prohibitionists (including the current administration) are ecomonic terrorists?

"Economic terrorists?" Please.

It is estimated that the current prohibition on cannabis costs the American taxpayer at least two hundred and twenty-five billion a year. Does that mean that all prohibitionists (including the current administration) are ecomonic terrorists?

Economic terrorist hell yes thats what they are illegal aliens have cost federal state and local government in the year 2000 33 billion dollars and thats a conservative estiment and now the cost is much higher than it was 6 years ago
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:cFPHwVlNpjYJ:www.fairus.org/site/PageServer%3Fpagename%3Diic_immigrationissuecentersf134+cost+of+illegal+immigration&hl=en&client=firefox-a

As for cannabis what hell does that have to do with anything?

As for cannabis what hell does that have to do with anything?

You say that anyone who deprives the US treasury of money is an economic terrorist. Therefore anyone who prohibits any activity which would yield tax money is also a terrorist. Which would make the majority of the citizens of the US terrorists, since they refuse to legalize cannabis and prostitution.

See? The term "economic terrorist" is ludicrous.

This is much like debating whether the owner of a house has the right to place a door in the entrance to his home.

You say that anyone who deprives the US treasury of money is an economic terrorist. Therefore anyone who prohibits any activity which would yield tax money is also a terrorist. Which would make the majority of the citizens of the US terrorists, since they refuse to legalize cannabis and prostitution.

See? The term "economic terrorist" is ludicrous.

You forgot about all the tax money that could be yielded if the government legalized Gladiator death matches and pay per view executions.

see? the term economic terrorist" is perfect

see? the term economic terrorist" is perfect

Not really. It's a clear attempt to associate illegal aliens with people who crash planes into towers. There's no comparision.

This whole wall thing is a crap idea.

"Oh welcome to the good ol' US of A, the land of the free! But first you have to try and get over our wall! Don't break your neck! Oh yeah, we almost forgot to mention the alligator infested moat on the other side!"

Besides, Mexicans have enough determination to a) tear the wall down or b) dig a tunnel under it.

Not really. It's a clear attempt to associate illegal aliens with people who crash planes into towers. There's no comparision.

Your right there is no comparison illegal aliens have cost America 100 times more money than those people who crash planes into buildings.

Your right there is no comparison illegal aliens have cost America 100 times more money than those people who crash planes into buildings.

As opposed to a war that costs more than both combined? Good gosh. The administration is an economic terrorist. Put them all in jail. That should solve it.

Or not.

This whole wall thing is a crap idea.

"Oh welcome to the good ol' US of A, the land of the free! But first you have to try and get over our wall! Don't break your neck! Oh yeah, we almost forgot to mention the alligator infested moat on the other side!"

Besides, Mexicans have enough determination to a) tear the wall down or b) dig a tunnel under it.

If they have so much determination why don't they fix their shit hole of a country instead of coming over here.

If they have so much determination why don't they fix their shit hole of a country instead of coming over here.

Because of the oppression by like, white people, or something. I unno, wait for someone versed in Marxism to come and explain it.

If they have so much determination why don't they fix their shit hole of a country instead of coming over here.

It's not like they have godly powers.

As opposed to a war that costs more than both combined? Good gosh. The administration is an economic terrorist. Put them all in jail. That should solve it.

Or not.

Yes put the politicians in jail who refuse to solve our border problem.

It's not like they have godly powers.

It's not like we have an unliminted bank account support the entire 3rd world either.

It's not like we have an unliminted bank account support the entire 3rd world either.

Please. So we have the unlimited bank account to support the building and maintenance of a wall? Which will still have to be patrolled by the way. And as we all know from history, walls have a way of coming down.

Also, Mexico is hardly the entire 3rd world.

there is no such thing as a free country with closed borders. nor would closing them solve anything. scapegoating unlawful immigration, which it accomplishes nothing for it to be unlawful, the existence of an i.n.s. and border patrols is a complete, useless and self serving waste of resources.
the line that seperates arizona and new mexico from utah and colorado, extend it accross southern california and give everything south of it back to mexico. give back the water that america has stolen from the colorada and rio grande rivers and mixico wouldn't have to migrate northward. and stop sabotaging every government that doesn't kiss the backside of corporatocracy destroying their environment.

borders arn't the problem. just another right wing scape goat for the natural consiquences of pseudo-conservative enequities.

=^^=
.../\...

Please. So we have the unlimited bank account to support the building and maintenance of a wall? Which will still have to be patrolled by the way. And as we all know from history, walls have a way of coming down.

Also, Mexico is hardly the entire 3rd world.

The wall will cost 2billion and its much cheaper than the tens of billions that the illegals cost us every year in education, prison, hospital and welfare benefits each year.

Also, the entire 3rd world can get into America unchecked through the Mexcan border it's not only Mexicans coming through

The wall will cost 2billion and its much cheaper than the tens of billions that the illegals cost us every year in education, prison, hospital and welfare benefits each year.

Also, the entire 3rd world can get into America unchecked through the Mexcan border it's not only Mexicans coming through

2 billion? Is that just to build the wall or is that including the long term upkeep over however many years it might last? That figure was definitely pulled out of someone's arse.

There are other options. Building a wall is not the only solution. It's merely a simple-minded idea cooked up as an easy out to escape actually putting thought into solving the problem in a more effective manner.

2 billion? Is that just to build the wall or is that including the long term upkeep over however many years it might last? That figure was definitely pulled out of someone's arse.

There are other options. Building a wall is not the only solution. It's merely a simple-minded idea cooked up as an easy out to escape actually putting thought into solving the problem in a more effective manner.

Actually it depends on what kind of fence the fence I have an article to is 7.2 billion
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:Ex5wlw3JNFIJ:www.vdare.com/sailer/israeli_fence.htm+cost+of+mexican+border+fence+&hl=en&client=firefox-a

OK, Lets pretend you're Mexico here, you have the US on your doorstep and their ecconomy is way above yours (incidently due to near-slave labour) American corperations rule the world now and will continue to do so for a few years until the Chineese steamroller them into the ground. They have better schools, healthcare, basic public services than you, not to mention they stole a good proportion of your water.
So how are you going to compete? Lets look at this logicaly now, you don't have the ecconomic base to get involved in any high profit industries, if you did (as a nation or private entraprenure) the huge cartels would come down on you like a ton of bricks, 'cause they dont like to share their profits. Follow so far?
Right, so what is your average Mexican going to do?
a. Stay in Mexico and try to get a job which is basicly basket weaving
b. Go to America and get a job for practicaly no money that the Americans wont touch.
Ether way, low pay, aweful conditions, but there are more jobs in America.

So, now I must, for the sake of the right-wingers around, explain what capitalism is.

Capitalism (N) The ideological and ecconomic system based around the principles of open markets and the reduction of barriers to trade.

Easy, now, are you familiar with the term "Labour market"? Well, a market is run by the principles of supply and demand, that is one person or group has need of a particular good or service, and those that produce that product "compete" They must ether produce a better product, or a cheeper one. This is what capitalism is, if you cant produce the goods better than your competitors, the custom goes to them, It's also the key-stone of American politics.
The labour market is much the same, the service in questiojn is whatever labour the employer requires, and the aplicants are the competing would be surpliers.

Do Americans do low-paied manual work better than Mexicans? -No
Do Americans do that same work cheeper than Americans? -No
So how the hell do you plan to compete with them?
Two options,
a.Work better, harder and for less than the Mexicans will
b.Abandon this stupid "free-market" failure, you've been beaten at your own game, and when the sleeping dragon awakens to its full potential, you dont stand a chance.

But what if America ran an open door policy where all imigrants were granted the rights (and duties) of citizens
-Mexicans would pay tax
-Border control far less needed, saves taxpayer money
-Americans wouldn't have to pay for the incarseration of illegal imigrants
And so forth...

Another factor American patriots often fail to consider was that every man, woman and child abord the mayflower was a political refugee (not directly related to the America-Mexico issue, but worth remembering)

Questions?

IT is hardly a 'Berlin Wall' onsidering it does not seperate indiginous people, a city, or even a nation. Nor is it intended to keep people in and it does not include deadly concenquence. Only a fool could compare it to the wall.

That said - the focus on illegal imigration is a red herring. Bill O'Reilly and his pals are on the wrong path. Anyone who things enforcement is the only solution is a fool.

Of course illegal immigration is a problem and I do NOT think it should just be accepted or tolerated.

"So, where the fuck are you goin, Boz?"

Simple - How many of you know anyone who has ever immigrated legally? I'm not talking about citizenship - I'm talking worker visa or resident alien. If you ask one they wil tell you the process is a ROYAL PAIN IN THE ASS!!! I'm not talking aobut a day at the DMV. I'm talking more like three years at the DMV. I know this from firsthand experience. Those beurocratic fuckers are a joke. The patriot act made it even worse!

Skilled workers must go through the hell to come here, but UNSKILLED workers... I frankly don't blame them if they say "fukit!" and just skip the assholes at INS. Imagine if you legally had to go through multiple applications, interviews, lost fomrs and beurocraticic fuckups for a few years every time you decided to change jobs. Eventually you'd say "FUKIT!" and just do it illegally. Would you do it even once? To be a dishwasher? Get it?

If these authoritarian asswipes REALLY want to reduce illegal immigration then they would look not only at enforcement, but also at making the legal immigration process much less of an obstacle and quit fucking people around who want to come join this great nation the right way.

I think the beuorcracy of legal immigration is more responsible for illigal immigration than any fence can compensate for.

From all I've heard, illegals from Mexico are a really serious problem... so building a wall would probably greatly decrease that problem.
And/Or their could actually use their soldiers for something useful and protect their borders to keep illegals out, rather than invading other countries :rolleyes:

Read 'Globalia' by Jean-Christophe Rufin. It's a good book and shows a very disturbing and very realistic view of the future. Including the separation between rich and poor countries. (U.S.-Mexico, Spain-Morocco, Isreal-Palestine already exist so...)

Im not American but I support a wall. The worlds single super power needs to remain stable and massive illegal immigration doesnt seem to ring with a stable nation that is ecconomically indepedant

...And no, your business' in NYC would not fall apart. Businesses everywhere would not implode because all of a sudden we cut off the flow of illegals...




it definitely would hurt on staten island in NYC. all the contractors would be royally screwed because 90% of them use illegal immigrant workers.

Yes, do it. The ladder producing sector of Mexico really needs that boost.
*applauds bold scheme to break all previous records of for-profit ladder construction in Mexican factories*

We could just make it easier to immigrate legally; I mean, a constant influx of immigrants is one of the best economic assets the US has and will almost certainly be the solution to the entitlement crises of the next decade or so.

If we were to rapidly increase the legal immigration rate and got these people to pay taxes on their earnings it would undoubtedly improve the sustainability of the Social Security program by increasing the number of young workers paying in to the system. Also, they'd be paying taxes to local/state authorities, which would relieve some of the burden they are currently under.

Protectionism and isolationism are almost total failiures, and building this stupid-ass wall is nothing more than an attempt to revert back to them.

Well I oppose the wall, but only because it would make my millenium to have the US become a Latin country.

Walls are boring. We need a moat! :D

an alligator infested moat and electrify the fence as well.

Although it would probably decrease the number of illegal immigrants from Mexico walking into the US (and force them to drive!!!!) it would probably be more like a Hadrian's wall or a Great Wall o' china than a Berlin wall.

Also I don't know if the Mexican's who are illegally in the US are a huge problem. (although I'm probably as uninformed and as far removed as possible from the 'problem')

The Mexicans are industrious people willing to work for cheap (albiet illegally) for their American employers, doing jobs that legal Americans may consider beneath them.

And its not like the US has an extensive socail security net that the illegal aliens can somehow drain.

It just seems to me like they're slaves- good for the economy, and they're doing it of their own free will.

Unless they're somehow being forced to work in the US. Than its a problem.

Anyway....

well all the states are imigrants anyway and supposed 'land of the free' :rolleyes: - when they wont let hardly anyone in. hypocrites - no?

I wish you guys'd either put up or shut up - if you really wanted one, you could all pitch in and erect a wall around your entire nation before Valentine's Day.

Get cracking - the sooner you all hide yourselves behind bricks and mortar, the sooner we can all begin the long process of forgetting you people exist...

Get cracking - the sooner you all hide yourselves behind bricks and mortar, the sooner we can all begin the long process of forgetting you people exist...

Well, forgetting we exist until China declares war on our now completely isolated, xenophobic and corrupt nation and tries to force us to buy their opium or something...

Let's build a wall, by all means. And also, let's put minefields, fences, trenches, and guardtowers along the border. That, plus expelling the illegals should solve the problem real quick like...

Well, forgetting we exist until China declares war on our now completely isolated, xenophobic and corrupt nation and tries to force us to buy their opium or something...

Of course, China would declare war on the United States, knowing full well that it would invite nuclear retaliation... :rolleyes:

George Carlin had it right: America should just erect a massive barricade around its borders, wait a generation or two, and then laugh as the rest of the world collapses.

The problem with illegal immigration is that it increases the number of people looking for unskilled labor. Supply and demand rules the job market. Too great of a supply of unskilled laborers decreases their value to employers and thus wages for the poor are driven down.

Often the argument is brought up that Americans don't want to do those jobs anyway. Bullshit. There are people who dive into tanks of raw sewage at sewage treatment plants. Maintaining and repairing a tank of sewage from the inside is a pretty lousy job, but people do it because they're paid enough. Americans want jobs that they can make a decent living on. Illegal immigration makes those jobs harder to find.

I support stopping illegal immigration. The wall's not a bad idea. Incarcerating and severly fining employers who use illegal alien labor is a better one.

Let's build a wall, by all means. And also, let's put minefields, fences, trenches, and guardtowers along the border. That, plus expelling the illegals should solve the problem real quick like...
That's the spirit!

Orbital lasers, too.

And don't forget the moats filled with burning gasoline jelly.

I'm all for the wall being built... We have laws in this country for a reason. Our country isn't stopping immigration merely making them adhere to the laws of the land. If you want to work here, fine, get a work visa... Want to move here, fine, get a green card or whatever. I'm sick of this arguement being twisted around to be anti-mexican, it's the law. Not to mention the wall will slow down drug smugglers, human trade, and who knows what else. Granted, I'm in upstate NY so the only mexicans I ever see are only here for 4 months, but I've read the reports of whats going on in the SW States. They are still in an emergency over the illegals. But once again; Enter the country legally or not at all....

That's the spirit!

Orbital lasers, too.

And don't forget the moats filled with burning gasoline jelly.

We have a right to defend our borders. I'm willing to take any action necessary to see that's completed.

We have a right to defend our borders. I'm willing to take any action necessary to see that's completed.

You know, 'Escape from New York' and 'Escape from L.A.' are beginning to look like documentaries from the future, not films...

You know, 'Escape from New York' and 'Escape from L.A.' are beginning to look like documentaries from the future, not films...

Those were both turning major cities into prisons, not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about making sure our border is safe.

Je laissé hors d'une pompe...

MExico has been forced into poverty by briliant American ideas such as NAFTA. Can we really now complain that they are seeking to flee the poverty we have created for them?

Well I oppose the wall, but only because it would make my millenium to have the US become a Latin country.

What the HELL is that supposed to mean?

Those were both turning major cities into prisons, not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about making sure our border is safe.
...by turning the continental United States into one immense prison yard, yes.

I believe I get what you're saying.

I wonder if you're getting it, though.

I wish you guys'd either put up or shut up - if you really wanted one, you could all pitch in and erect a wall around your entire nation before Valentine's Day.

Get cracking - the sooner you all hide yourselves behind bricks and mortar, the sooner we can all begin the long process of forgetting you people exist...

And what lovely shithole are you from?

If anything, the strengthening of the borders and tightening up on human smuggling should be done to protect the Mexican people coming here.

Many Hispanic women coming from Mexico and points south are brought to this country and points further south with promises of better lives and end up in actual slavery in the sex trade.

Both men and women coming illegally from Asian countries are forced to work in sweatshops in virtual slavery trying to pay off their passage.

Let's not forget those who DO die in shipping containers, airless trucks, etc.

I think that with our close southern neighbors particularly, monthly work passes should be readily available. You want to come across the border and work at construction, domestic service, gardening, in the food industry -- in other words, in all the jobs that American teens turn their noses up at? Go ahead. The passes would mean that -- tada -- they are legal to work in the US, that as far as we know they are upstanding non-criminal members of society, and that some tracking of their comings and goings is possible. By making them legal monthly workers you improve their lives back home and also continue to have the work force they provide -- and they can be paid at least a minimum wage.

The reason they are paid shit wages is because they are afraid, as illegals, to complain because immigration will kick their asses out. Making them legal with work permits should improve their lot.

Well I oppose the wall, but only because it would make my millenium to have the US become a Latin country.Well Latin or Pan-African. Either'd suit me.

Maybe they wouldn't be as stiff as last century's model.

All I can say is that if these fuckers 'american culture/lifestyle' didn't involving getting the lawn mowed for next to nothing, and cheap restaurants, then there wouldn't be any mexicans to worry about. .

This is true. The same thing has happened in other countries, when society becomes so affluent that the locals no longer want to do menial labor. Take Sweden, for example. When I visited there in 1973, about 98% of the population were ethnic Swedes. Nowadays, 20% of the population is foreign-born or descended from those who have immigrated to the country since 1970, and this percentage will probably increase. Not surprisingly, crime has increased dramatically, mostly committed by members of the immigrant population.

I'm not saying that any of this is right or wrong, but that seems to be the cycle. After all, if I could get someone to do my housekeeping and gardening for cheap, I'd hire them, too.

Well Latin or Pan-African. Either'd suit me.

Maybe they wouldn't be as stiff as last century's model.

OMG *Dies*

You guys would rather have a black majority/latin majority America than a white majority America?

Are you insane?

And what lovely shithole are you from?
Oh really now, there's no need to resort to verbal abuse. Particularly in the form of obscenity in response to a barbed witticism.

Why not instead be clever and construct a witty retort?



And for the record, I'm not from a shithole. I'm from a vaginal tract just like everybody else.

So there.

The key phrase is: ILLEGAL immigration. I, a democrat, am strongly for immigration; HOWEVER, ILLEGALLY immigrating is not the way to do it. Are there reforms on immigration that could make the process better? Of course. Is illegal immigration the best way to 'fix' the system? NO.

I love how trendy it's become to suggest that America be walled in and drowned, as one poster in this thread suggested. It's perfectly fine to say that you'd like to see the US basically invaded and taken over by people comming here illegaly. Say that you'd like to see the Palestinians walled in and drowned, or that the invasion of illegal occupants that crushed Native American culture was OK and then you're a bigot.

To all who openly or secretly harbor such bigoted attitudes toward my country and my people, I hope all of your restaurants are replaced by McDonalds and you end up destitute and working for Walmart.

Oh really now, there's no need to resort to verbal abuse. Particularly in the form of obscenity in response to a barbed witticism.

Why not instead be clever and construct a witty retort?



And for the record, I'm not from a shithole. I'm from a vaginal tract just like everybody else.

So there.

So in all that you still didnt reveal where you are from...and dont tell me about verbal abuse....."forgetting you guys exist"??? What the hell is that.

America has saved half the world and all we get is this shit...give me a break.

Now this is a hot topic in the US lately and been around simmering for a long time. Would building a wall the length of the Mexican border work? http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C2E2C3BD-BC34-4BE7-8D8C-20716842A5AD.htm

There is no comparison between the proposed wall along the US border and the Berlin wall. The Berlin wall was built by East Berlin to keep people in East Berlin. The wall along the US border is designed to keep people from illegally entering the US. Those who enter illegally commit a crime and are thus criminals. The US has a right to protect its borders and keep criminals out.

You guys would rather have a black majority/latin majority America than a white majority America??
Yup.
Are you insane?Nope.

So in all that you still didnt reveal where you are from...and dont tell me about verbal abuse....."forgetting you guys exist"??? What the hell is that.

America has saved half the world and all we get is this shit...give me a break.
Canada

I love how trendy it's become to suggest that America be walled in and drowned, as one poster in this thread suggested. It's perfectly fine to say that you'd like to see the US basically invaded and taken over by people comming here illegaly. Say that you'd like to see the Palestinians walled in and drowned, or that the invasion of illegal occupants that crushed Native American culture was OK and then you're a bigot.

To all who openly or secretly harbor such bigoted attitudes toward my country and my people, I hope all of your restaurants are replaced by McDonalds and you end up destitute and working for Walmart.

*cheers!*

Amen, Brother!

Couldnt have said it better myself.

There is no comparison between the proposed wall along the US border and the Berlin wall. The Berlin wall was built by East Berlin to keep people in East Berlin. The wall along the US border is designed to keep people from illegally entering the US. Those who enter illegally commit a crime and are thus criminals. The US has a right to protect its borders and keep criminals out.

Agreed. We're not fencing people in; we're keeping illegals out.

Yup.
Nope.
Why? Are non-whites automatically better than whites? Bigot.

Yup.


Why?

Canada

What about Canada?

the US is about to face a HUGE problem: buying power.


As the baby boomers die and retire, they spend less and less money.
This means that the US economy will stagnate and a giant depression will occur.

Unless we try to increase the immigration of younger people into te US.

Openly Fascist? Well then, if fascism equals smarts, then I'll be the first one to sign up for the new totalitarian regime. It's way beyond the time when a real wall should be put up. After 9/11, we actually put troops on the Mexican border for a few months, and actual border crossings diminished by 90+%. Give our boys something to do besides going to Iraq to protect our country. They can keep our country safe by just sitting on US soil, and keeping the illegals out.

i sincerely hope you forgot to add [/SARC]

Let's not get too racist here. Each race has its respective pluses and minuses. For example:

I cannot STAND the way most african americans talk where I live; but, does that make them inferior? No, not in the least.

"African American or Latino America" would be no better or worse than "White America".

What about Canada?
That's where Dobbs is from.

the US is about to face a HUGE problem: buying power.


As the baby boomers die and retire, they spend less and less money.
This means that the US economy will stagnate and a giant depression will occur.

Unless we try to increase the immigration of younger people into te US.
1) Seniors spend plenty of money. Their healthcare costs are greater than any other segment of the population. Their leisure time allows them to travel and use airplane, hotel and restaurant services as well as buying souveniers and such.

2) Controlled immigration can be increased or decreased as needed. Uncontrolled immigration leads to nothing but problems.

So in all that you still didnt reveal where you are from....Untrue. I dispelled your notion of my originating from a 'shithole'. Mrs. Dobbs had perfectly normal female anatomy. and dont tell me about verbal abuse....."forgetting you guys exist"??? What the hell is that.Like I alluded to earlier... it's a witticism. And forgive me for having to point it out, you're the one using words like 'shit' and 'shithole', not I. Hence, I will tell you about verbal abuse, as you seem rather blithely unaware that a joke simply doesn't warrant a profanity-laden, humourless bit of back-biting. Rather, it invites an equal or greater wit to be employed in response. Pity you failed to pick up on that, though perhaps no real surprise, either.America has saved half the world and all we get is this shit...give me a break.Oh yes? You must be tired. Pull up a chair. Break given.

So when were you saving the world most recently?

1) Seniors spend plenty of money. Their healthcare costs are greater than any other segment of the population. Their leisure time allows them to travel and use airplane, hotel and restaurant services as well as buying souveniers and such.

2) Controlled immigration can be increased or decreased as needed. Uncontrolled immigration leads to nothing but problems.


Nicely put :)

Well I oppose the wall, but only because it would make my millenium to have the US become a Latin country.

Look at the population figures. We're well on the way to becoming a "brown" country. Hispanics and African-Americans are about a quarter of the population now and growing.

This causes certain segments of the society to run around burning things, handing out leaflets, trying to intimidate others and otherwise acting like idiots, but most of us are fine with it.

OMG *Dies*

You guys would rather have a black majority/latin majority America than a white majority America?

Are you insane?

*shrugs* It's the reality.

well i am for border security... but its lunacy...

if youre going to build a wall on the mexican border than you might as well build one on the canadian border and well the East and west borders too... becayuse god knows only 1/10th of the cargo is checking coming into this country through the seaports... and hell the colleges too... how many foreigners come to college legally and then disappear?

Why? Are non-whites automatically better than whites? Bigot.
No, but in this instance, better the devil I don't know than one with which I am already altogether far too familiar (and not a huge fan of). At this point, anything could be construed as an improvement over the status quo.

So sure - go ahead and call me a bigot. Whatever turns your crank. But at least I'm an optimistic one.

we need troops on the border before we need a wall.

i would also like to know why protecting the border is fascist.

I say no. Mexican immigrants (even illegals) are a very valuable part of our Californian economy. They are not here running around trying to bring in crime, those are just bad eggs that you gotta take in with the good eggs.

why not sort out the good and bad eggs by monitorign their entrance?

hey, and more taxes are always a plus.

hey, and more taxes are always a plus.
Are you certain you're an American?

Are you certain you're an American?

i favor paying taxes over not paying taxes illegally.

It's not the Berlin wall it's the Great Wall of Mexico. Anyway Mexico has more natural reasources and beter soil per acre then we do so why are they poor? Because their government is corrupt and their people are to lazy to do anything about it so they just run up to the US.

I find the arguements that Mexican immigrants are worth less than Americans appaling. I, however, am not going to kid myself and say that Mexicans shouldn't have to pay taxes.

What I think is that the immigration problem is just as bad for Mexicans as it is for Americans: You get a job that is basically slave labor.

And for Americans: these immigrants are taking manual labor jobs from us, and not paying taxes.

So, I think it is in the best interest of both countries to (a) crack down on corporations using illegals, and (b) put a wall up so that immigrants are forced to legally get in, and need to be paid minumum wage at least.

I find the arguements that Mexican immigrants are worth less than Americans appaling. I, however, am not going to kid myself and say that Mexicans shouldn't have to pay taxes.

What I think is that the immigration problem is just as bad for Mexicans as it is for Americans: You get a job that is basically slave labor.

And for Americans: these immigrants are taking manual labor jobs from us, and not paying taxes.

So, I think it is in the best interest of both countries to (a) crack down on corporations using illegals, and (b) put a wall up so that immigrants are forced to legally get in, and need to be paid minumum wage at least.
WTF? I didn't think they let sane people in here. Quick, post something crazy before they get wise to you.

only the bourgeousie like the prerevolution Chinese Emporers and Isreal build walls to keep people out. We need to build walls to keep people in!

Yup.

WhY? What would make that a better situation?

perhaps a demilitarized zone, packed with landmines, would be less expensive than a wall. and if someone makes it across, shoot them. but cheer them on while they are crossing the minefield, or else that would be mean. it seems that the koreas have demonstrated that this type of border sytem greatly reduces the flow of illegal pedestrians.

on the other hand, the international community may disapprove, so perhaps a wall might be better. it may encourage the mexicanos to improve their own situation by facing the issues that confront the nation rather than running away. the opportunities that abound in the US were paid for in blood by American citizens, they should look into purchasing something similar. viva la revolucion!

new zealand doesnt have these issues because they had the foresight to build their nation upon an island, so if you are xenophobic, move to new zealand. if they will let you, jackass.

if you believe that the border should be open, i can appreciate that. your forefathers fought and died to provide the for your rights and way of life, feel free to give it away to anyone who wants a peice of the american dream, even if they choose not to abide by the rules of earning or participating in your society. if it's not worth anything to you give it to someone who will cherich it.

it may be none of my business, but it seems quite clear that if it is ILLEGAL immigration, ought not something be done to prevent it?

WTF? I didn't think they let sane people in here. Quick, post something crazy before they get wise to you.
I think that's a commplement...:confused:

Now this is a hot topic in the US lately and been around simmering for a long time. Would building a wall the length of the Mexican border work? I think that some type of better control is needed here. I have no problem with honest Mexicans seeking work to improve there families lives. But some type of system needs to be devised to do it legally. The current form invites death to those that try and cross in the desert. Illegals are exploited in Mexico and the US. Something should be done. What are some solutions?

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C2E2C3BD-BC34-4BE7-8D8C-20716842A5AD.htm (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C2E2C3BD-BC34-4BE7-8D8C-20716842A5AD.htm)

Al Jazeera Dot Net..!!!? Sheesh....

A wall (some form of barrier that is not necessarily an actual piece of
masonry) between countries is the norm, people.

No other country in the world would tolerate the insane traffic over their
border like the US does.

America is THE most tolerant (stupidly so), LEAST racist, MOST GENEROUS
and idiotically childish LARGE nation on the planet.

We most definitately need a HUGE dose of INTOLERANCE, SENSIBLE
PROFILING ("race" based examination), GREED and GROWN-UP (adult) attitude
adjustment.

-Iakeo

Yes put the politicians in jail who refuse to solve our border problem.

Given that it would be a national border wall, that would mean putting the one with executive powers behind bars.

Those were both turning major cities into prisons, not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about making sure our border is safe.

You're obviously not thinking big. :p

the line that seperates arizona and new mexico from utah and colorado, extend it accross southern california and give everything south of it back to mexico.
C'mon over and force me out of my AZ home. Ain't happening, you elitist totaltarian. Awfully free with other people's land and possessions, aren't you? Don't forget, we actually PAID Mexico for some of this land too, or did the Gadsen Purchase just slip your mind?


The wall is a beginning, but only that. I see new tunnels found all the time. A wall 1900 miles long will be hard to build, hard to maintain, and very expensive to man. But, if we pull all of our troops and money out of Europe, that will be a lot easier, and the EU can take care of itself. They'd be a lot happier, too.
Mexico is a beautiful country, full of natural resources, and only suffering from one disease - corruption. Mexico, with properly exploited natural resources, could EASILY be a First World nation. They have a rich history and tradition, and deserve a fresh chance at world life. And, the best way to give them that chance, is the same way we gave that chance to Germany and Japan.





Invade. Iraquify the place, rebuild, eliminate as much corruption as possible, (damn difficult), and crush that stupid Chiapas rebellion while we're at it. Give them that boost up, and then get the hell out.
Oh, for those of you convined that every illegal is just a tired honest worker trying for a better life - bullshit. Over 11.5% of Arizona's prison population is Mexican National, here illegally. Over 1 in 10. Check your state's prison population - you might be surprised....

Won't happen, nor should it. Exactly how is illegal immigration a serious problem in today's day and age? There is little evidence to show it does anything but help the economy (a massive unskilled labor force willing to work for less than minimum wage is pretty damn useful) and the "security risk" bull**** is a red-herring. I agree with libertarians on very few things, but the open border policy is one of them.

1) They use government services and are paid in American jobs, put don't pay taxes. Public schools in, for instance, California, are overcrowded and overflowing with illegal immigrants and the children of illegal immigrants, costing huge amounts of money and causing enormous problems, yet they or their parents (whichever is relevant) don't pay taxes. And that's just education: legally or no, they use Welfare and Medicaid as well.

By the same token, everyone else in the US pays an income tax - on the other hand, tens of millions of illegal immigrants have jobs in our country, but don't contribute to the government at all.

2) They send substantial portions of their salaries back to their home countries. This is basically a one-way drain on our economy, a hole in the water bottle. Estimates place the amount of money sent out of our economy at the hundreds of millions to even billions each year. Not to mention that it goes straight back to countries that are basically really big drug factories ruled by dictators, military juntas, and drug cartels, who are enemies of the US and are going to use that money, eventually, to ship a few tons more drugs across our borders.

3) I'm sorry, but if I have to use even a little bit of sign language, or struggle to understand a broken mix of Spanish and pidgin English, I usually tend to get pissed off. Having to be fluent in Spanish, with no recourse to English at all, is even worse. First-generation immigrants, and to a lesser degree their children, show a conspicuous lack of dedication to learning our language, customs, or most basic socio(political/economic) structure. Real immigrants have to learn those things, and are serious about something besides sneaking across the border and getting a minimum-wage job, such as actually being real Americans.

4) They're ILLEGAL immigrants. Their presence is a flagrant violation of our laws. They sneak across a border that is NOT open, know that their actions are illegal, to go into a country that has a legitimate, official immigration program and which does not want an annual flow of millions of illegal immigrants into their country.

5) Terrorism is far from a 'red herring'. Effectively open border = welcoming mat for terrorists. Come on in! The water's fine! If an illegal immigrant with no money, who can't speak English, etc. can enter so easily, a well-funded, well-trained, dedicated person with an entire equally dedicated and well-funded organization behind him could get in without a hitch. BOOM! There goes anything in anywhere from LA to Dallas.

Wasn't the Berlin Wall more about keeping people in rather then out?

"US defends Mexican 'Berlin Wall'"

That's a major misnomer. The Berlin Wall was built to keep people in. This wall, if it's actually ever built, would be to keep out people trying to enter the Country illegally.

My personal opinion is that we should simply fine companies and idividuals who hire illegals ( from whatever country ) a million dollars per incident. That would stop illegal immigration dead in its tracks.

It's not inhumane, and it doesn't attack human rights. But I doubt it will be effective either. Unless the situation in Mexico (from where the vast majority of illegal immigrants come) improves dramatically for the lower economic sectors in the next couple of years, illegal immigration won't stop and people will find ways around this wall. Especially since the companies hired to make it will have to hire illegal immigrants to finish on budget :)