NationStates Jolt Archive

Every once in a while, I hear a group of blacks demanding reparation for slavery. The most recent one that comes to mind is when a black organization (forgot the name) started blaming Wachovia for doing business with slave owners and slave traders. Neverminding the fact that Wachovia didn't exist back then. So what does Wachovia do? They apologize for their past transgresion and I think (not sure) pay the group some money. This really begs the question, do blacks really deserve these reparation? I mean they are suspose to be for blacks that endured slavery, and yet, all of those blacks are dead. It's kind of a moot point to pay the reparation to those who never experienced slavery. I mean why should I, or any other white person should be force to pay for something we never did? This whole reparation thing is extortion and a cheap and dirty way to get money. I mean some of these people even ignore the fact that very few Southerners back then owned slaves. The land owners who owned slaves were in the very small minority. So like I said I personally think reparation is extortion.

no. it's completely impossible to tell how to do it in a fiar manner, and it excludes many of the people who are greatly at falt, such as descendates of slave traders and tribes in africa.

Well, they deserve reparations as much as today's Jews deserve it for the Holocaust.

I doubt there are any survivors of slavery left, so I would say they shouldn't get anything unless they can really prove that someone around today is somehow responsible for something that really hurt them.

So I'd say that reparations, while it is a good idea to pay back damages to victims of government policy, have no place in this particular case.

Honestly it seems a bit late to say we're sorry and give reparation. It's as was sad before, why should we pay for something we didn't do? And why should we pay it to someone whom by mere chance is related to someone who was a slave?

Well, they deserve reparations as much as today's Jews deserve it for the Holocaust.

I doubt there are any survivors of slavery left, so I would say they shouldn't get anything unless they can really prove that someone around today is somehow responsible for something that really hurt them.

So I'd say that reparations, while it is a good idea to pay back damages to victims of government policy, have no place in this particular case.

I don't have any problem paying Holocaust survivors, because they did go through the event, they lost their homes, business, and lives. They deserve compestation, but just because your great great great great.... grandma was a house slave doesn't mean that You deserve the money.

I see it as extortion, the same way I see a made up Native American tribe in Vermont demanding that they get (##) amount of land, because it was 'Taken' from the so called tribe around 200 years ago, never mind that that land includes houses and businesses, and if they don't allow him to build a Casino.

There is such a thing as socital guilt. There's also the fact that until recently, segregation was the norm as well. While cash repartations to individuals are unlikely and hard to actually administer, perhaps to the race as a whole?

Hell no.

But if they do, can I demand reparations from the government of Norway, due to emotional trauma inflicted on any of my ancestors who were taken away from their homelands as slaves by the Vikings?

Next time someone suggests you should give them reparations because your ancestors enslaved his, ask him if we should pack our entire population back into the Eastern Seaboard and give the rest of the nation back to the Indians [or Hell, even the whole thing].

The point here is that if we want to get all choked up about what our ancestors did to someone else's ancestors, and started demanding retroactive reparations on every goddamn wrongdoing, we'll never get anything else done. People who asks for reparations are just looking for a hand-out like every other lazy malcontent in the nation. Besides, repayment for a debt isn't repayment at all if the party to be repaid doesn't exist anymore. I don't "repay" a family of someone I murdered by handing them a fat wad of cash: it might make them happy for a little while but it doesn't repay them for their loss, in the strictest sense of the term. If we wanted to pretend it is, almost any ethnicity can demand handouts from almost any other, unless there's some sort of statute of limitations on all of this garbage.

Every once in a while, I hear a group of blacks demanding reparation for slavery. The most recent one that comes to mind is when a black organization (forgot the name) started blaming Wachovia for doing business with slave owners and slave traders. Neverminding the fact that Wachovia didn't exist back then. So what does Wachovia do? They apologize for their past transgresion and I think (not sure) pay the group some money. This really begs the question, do blacks really deserve these reparation? I mean they are suspose to be for blacks that endured slavery, and yet, all of those blacks are dead. It's kind of a moot point to pay the reparation to those who never experienced slavery. I mean why should I, or any other white person should be force to pay for something we never did? This whole reparation thing is extortion and a cheap and dirty way to get money. I mean some of these people even ignore the fact that very few Southerners back then owned slaves. The land owners who owned slaves were in the very small minority. So like I said I personally think reparation is extortion.


I think the point is that Africans didn't come to this country willingly at first, and despite more than 200 years of history are still a persecuted people. It's undenyable that opportunities ore less than abundant for black americans even today.

But, if you want to talk about reparations, american indians should be at the top of the list bofore anyone else. What happened to them is unforgivable. My late father in law worked for most of his life to preserve the history, culture, language, and traditions of the northwest coast Salish people, and without his efforts many tribes would be unrecognized to this day. It's a sad and horrible thing what has happened the those people, but we think it's all ok because they're building casinos.

I don't have any problem paying Holocaust survivors, because they did go through the event, they lost their homes, business, and lives. They deserve compestation, but just because your great great great great.... grandma was a house slave doesn't mean that You deserve the money.

So by extension, just because your great great great great...grandfather was an exceptionally wealthy landowner, that doesn't mean that you deserve the money? ;)

Next time someone suggests you should give them reparations because your ancestors enslaved his, ask him if we should pack our entire population back into the Eastern Seaboard and give the rest of the nation back to the Indians [or Hell, even the whole thing].

The point here is that if we want to get all choked up about what our ancestors did to someone else's ancestors, and started demanding retroactive reparations on every goddamn wrongdoing, we'll never get anything else done. People who asks for reparations are just looking for a hand-out like every other lazy malcontent in the nation. Besides, repayment for a debt isn't repayment at all if the party to be repaid doesn't exist anymore. I don't "repay" a family of someone I murdered by handing them a fat wad of cash: it might make them happy for a little while but it doesn't repay them for their loss, in the strictest sense of the term. If we wanted to pretend it is, almost any ethnicity can demand handouts from almost any other, unless there's some sort of statute of limitations on all of this garbage.

Actually, we'd have to all move back to where we came from. And then, because we puched people out, there, we'd have to move even further back. And further. And further.

Eventually, we'd all be living in Africa. Six billion people. On one continent. I suppose we could use Antarctica, too.

I see it as extortion, the same way I see a made up Native American tribe in Vermont demanding that they get (##) amount of land, because it was 'Taken' from the so called tribe around 200 years ago, never mind that that land includes houses and businesses, and if they don't allow him to build a Casino.

Well in the native american case the lands were for religious purposes weren't they? Admittedly it was a long time ago and if people or buisnesses are on the land, I'm not saying it should be given back... but if it's goverment owned it would make sense.

I wonder if the English would fall for all this rubbish.....

So by extension, just because your great great great great...grandfather was an exceptionally wealthy landowner, that doesn't mean that you deserve the money? ;)
You didn't get it, remember "Re-construction"?

So by extension, just because your great great great great...grandfather was an exceptionally wealthy landowner, that doesn't mean that you deserve the money? ;)

Eh, I'd probably wouldn't know where the money came from and I wouldn't really care.

However, I did have a great great great great... (alotta greats) grandfather on my mom side who was a soilder for the confederate army. He was a Bare (my mom's family name), so of course he was always drunk, which would explain why he didn't last very long in battle.

why are you associating slavery only with people of affrican descent and only "back then"?

this is certainly a very different question then that suggested by the title given this thread.

i believe it is absurd to immagine that all harm and wrongs can be undone with basicly bribing off whomever has a legitimate grievance. rather what is needed is to look to the harm that is still being done, ofthen by the same mentality, priorities and objectives, that brought about the horrors, familiar and unfamilliar both, not only of the past, but also of the often overlooked present.

the quite condoning of genocide for the sake of little green pieces of paper is not, unfortunately, confined to the annuls of history.

in today's world, one would have to get one's news only from corporate media and have an absolute blind faith in it to remain ignorant of this simple reality.

wachovia is a financial institution. financial institutions are by and large, however in many cases indirectly, but certainly not ligitimately ignorantly, causaly responsible for most of the horror that continue to go on.

i don't know why you singled them out. as far as i can immagine they are no more nor less culpable for CURRENT enequities then any other.

=^^=
.../\...

Well in the native american case the lands were for religious purposes weren't they? Admittedly it was a long time ago and if people or buisnesses are on the land, I'm not saying it should be given back... but if it's goverment owned it would make sense.
Actually the tribe in question was, at the time, made up of less than 50 people. And the government didn't own it. They wanted the government to evict the owners and give the land back,

In reality they wanted to open up a Casino. Seriously... It wasn't for Religious reasons it was so they could become rich by robbing the people through gambling.

unless there's some sort of statute of limitations on all of this garbage.
So where would you set that statute of limitations then? Or do I assume from your statement that any loss of land, money, liberty, life or other property never has to be accounted for as long as the one doing the taking is stronger?

No.

So where would you set that statute of limitations then? Or do I assume from your statement that any loss of land, money, liberty, life or other property never has to be accounted for as long as the one doing the taking is stronger?

In that Case Japan must pay the decendents of the Victims of Pearl Harbor and the others who died in Asia in World War 2.

Spain and Portago must pay all of South America for what they did to the Natives down there.

Britain must be paying the US for Burning down Washington in 1812 by supporting the war.

France doesn't owe the US because they paid for WWII in Advance with the Louisania Purchase.

Cuba owes the US because we helped them kick the Spainish out.

Germany should still be paying out the nose for WWII also.

Everyone should be sueing everyone because of things that happened MANY MANY YEARS AGO!!!

why are you associating slavery only with people of affrican descent and only "back then"?

Because amost 100% of slaves were black, and back then was referring to the pre-Civil War era.

this is certainly a very different question then that suggested by the title given this thread.

How?


i believe it is absurd to immagine that all harm and wrongs can be undone with basicly bribing off whomever has a legitimate grievance.


What do you consider legitimate grievance? Because having a group of black people ask me for money just because one of their ancestor was a slave to one of my ancestors (just an example, my family was never rich enough to own slave) is not a legitimate grievance.


rather what is needed is to look to the harm that is still being done, ofthen by the same mentality, priorities and objectives, that brought about the horrors, familiar and unfamilliar both, not only of the past, but also of the often overlooked present.

I agree, we shoud look at our present situation instead of looking at the past.


the quite condoning of genocide for the sake of little green pieces of paper is not, unfortunately, confined to the annuls of history.

You're right, slavery in other parts of the world still exist.


in today's world, one would have to get one's news only from corporate media and have an absolute blind faith in it to remain ignorant of this simple reality.

wachovia is a financial institution. financial institutions are by and large, however in many cases indirectly, but certainly not ligitimately ignorantly, causaly responsible for most of the horror that continue to go on.

Prove that Wachovia still plays a part in the horror's that goes on today.


i don't know why you singled them out. as far as i can immagine they are no more nor less culpable for CURRENT enequities then any other.

=^^=
.../\...

Because I think it's wrong when black people today who NEVER EVER experienced slavery ask whites for handouts just because one of their ancestors just happened to be slaves.

why are you associating slavery only with people of affrican descent and only "back then"?

Because he's talking about the United States of America.

in today's world, one would have to get one's news only from corporate media and have an absolute blind faith in it to remain ignorant of this simple reality.

Are you trying to tell me that there's been a time in history when the media wasn't owned by the government or a large corporation? If so, do tell.

In that Case Japan must pay the decendents of the Victims of Pearl Harbor and the others who died in Asia in World War 2.

Well, if you're using the rationale that you're making fun of in your post, then you're wrong. Japan lost that war, and they weren't allowed to keep any of the geographical gains they had won at the time. Not to mention that they're still barred from having a standing military on a similar scal to what they had pre-war.

In that Case Japan must pay the decendents of the Victims of Pearl Harbor and the others who died in Asia in World War 2.
I'm not aware of any Americans bringing suit against Japan, but a number of Chinese and Koreans have as of late, to be rejected by the Japanese court systems under the "reasoning" of experation of the statue of limitations and the San Francisco Peace Treaty that the nations signed; which supposedly delt with the subject (by dropping it).

Personally I think Japan SHOULD do something. I'm not holding my breath though, the Japanese goverment is waiting for everyone to die.

Ironically, the US goverment tried the same thing.

Edit: My point being, while this particular case is complex, do we just allow anything taken by those who have power, from the powerless, to remain without any answer? If so, don't bitch about ED taking away your house to give to a devloper without due compensation.

In that Case Japan must pay the decendents of the Victims of Pearl Harbor and the others who died in Asia in World War 2.

WE WERE INVITED! TEA WAS SERVED! CHECK WITH MANCHURIA!

Well, if you're using the rationale that you're making fun of in your post, then you're wrong. Japan lost that war, and they weren't allowed to keep any of the geographical gains they had won at the time. Not to mention that they're still barred from having a standing military on a similar scal to what they had pre-war.
See the rest of my post.

Well, if you're using the rationale that you're making fun of in your post, then you're wrong. Japan lost that war, and they weren't allowed to keep any of the geographical gains they had won at the time. Not to mention that they're still barred from having a standing military on a similar scal to what they had pre-war.

They're still barred from having a military, full-stop.

Which doesn't stop them from having cops who fly F-15s, command missile destroyers, or drive Type-90 Main Battle Tanks.

No

Otherwise I demand the British, Italian and Turkish government pay me money for what they did at various points in time to my ancestors.

Hey what about making Christians pay reparation to Satanists that had ancestors who suffered during the Episcopal Inquisition, the Spanish Inquisition, the Roman Inquisition, the Portuguese Inquisition, and witch hunts?

So until I get my fat check from Pat Robertson, I'm against reparation!

~Satanic Reverend Medivh~

So by extension, just because your great great great great...grandfather was an exceptionally wealthy landowner, that doesn't mean that you deserve the money? ;)

Not by definition, no. The person *he* left it to had rights. If that happened to be his son/daughter and this family tradition was continued to your line - then you have a right to claim that money. If your greagreatgreat granddaddy lost it all - too bad for you.

I've never understood the deal with reparations. I mean, If someone does something wrong, the falt lies with them, not their children, etc. I am descened from people who were affected by BOTH the highland clearences and the potato famine (different sides), but I can hardly balme either of those things on the great, great, grandchildren of the landowners responsible for the hardship my ansestors suffered. Also, my great-great-grandad was a POW in WW1, and as I understand it was nearly killed at the hands of his captors by the work he was forced to do - but that is not the fault of any of their descendents alive today.

I know it's not exactly the same thing, but it's down the same road. How can we hold the son accountable for the crimes of the father without tarring all the generations to come? Also, if you back far enough, every family has some dark elememt to their past, be it a rapest, murderer, viking pillager.

Also, unless the people seeking reparations are still suffering greatly as a direct result of said transgrssion, I can't see how they deserve the money. It should be paid to charities that help people affected by slavery.

I'm very much a 'live and let live', 'forgive and forget and move on', kinda person.

my ancestors fed Christians to lions. But now I'm a Christian.

Do I write myself a check?

my ancestors fed Christians to lions. But now I'm a Christian.

Do I write myself a check?

LOL! :D Good question! I'm in your boat. I'm British-American and Cherokee, so how much do I owe me?

If the person who was stolen from is still living, i.e. a Holocaust survivor, and can prove that something specific was taken from him, then the item(s) should be returned to him. Paintings, bank accounts, whatever. The thieves should stand trial.

If the person is dead, and the people who stole from them are also dead, and it is only his/her descendants who are whining, I say get over it and move on with your life. We are all descendants of conquerors, and of the conquered. You don't get bonus points because your particular family was offended in the more recent past.

my ancestors fed Christians to lions. But now I'm a Christian.

Do I write myself a check?

LOL - No, you should write me one because my ancestors were jewish and were oppressed by your ancestors long before you fed christians to the lions. :)

I look at affirmative action for black people as reparations.

I look at affirmative action for black people as reparations.

I disagree. I think it's the wrong answer, but not for that reason.

Or with me...

My best friend is 1/4 Cree... do I owe her anything? No. In fact, I owe none of the persecuted minorities nothing because like my generation and the last two, we did nothing wrong, therefore, we shouldn't have to pay because some asswipe from a 'persecuted' minority has his/her underwear in a bloody knot.

If reparations were due, I'd also be next in line for what the British (2x over because of the two different Celtic ties in my family) did to my ancestors, as well as the Turks.

Until other persecuted groups gets reparations, we remain against them for the reason that there is no good reason why one person should get money because their ancestors got fucked over, and I get none and mine were fucked over as well.

I look at affirmative action for black people as reparations.

Don't even get me started on Affirmative Action. I got a rant saved up for that one.

Ultimately, on the issue of slavery, it is too late for anyone to claim reparations. Only those who actually suffered from a condition have the right to claim recompense for it - their descendents have no such right.

Nor does anyone have to pay for a wrong more than once. Japan and Germany paid for their crimes after WWII - it is much too late now to say "but I have a claim!" no matter how good your case is. Those cases are closed.

LOL - No, you should write me one because my ancestors were jewish and were oppressed by your ancestors long before you fed christians to the lions. :)

I'm so confused.

How about reparations for my Scots-Irish ancestors who were slaves (they were indentured servants and convict laborers)?

Or is reparations for slavery merely an ethnic issue, with only "blacks" allowed to apply for it, "redlegs" need not apply?

Paying for the sins of one's father (or father's grandfather's great-grandfather's sins) is offensive enough as a concept, but paying for the sins of someone else's ancestors just because your skin happens to be the wrong color? Come on now.

American (especially in the North) is a land of immigrants. I can trace my family tree back to when every one of my ancestors stepped off a boat, and not a single one came to American when slavery was legal. I don't even have a branch in the south AFTER slavery. These facts dont make me rare, they actually make me pretty common. A great number of Americans trace their families back to the immigration booms at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century, and the largest growing "minority" in the country trace their families to Mexico over only the past few decades.

In light of these realities, how would one collect the money to pay reparations? Would you tax all whites? All southern whites? All southern whites who have antebellum families? What about southerners who moved north? What about the increasing numbers of multi-racial individuals in the country, do they pay only a fraction of their tax? How do we decide who pays?

After that, how do we decide who gets the money? Who gets "counted" as black enough to recieve a check? Will we resurrect the disgusting 1/16th rule of the Jim Crow south? How will we deal with interracial families, who might be both paying white and recieving black?

Reparations would have been a great idea in the wake of the civil war, hell, even decades after they could have been feasible. The problem is that today most Americans don;t have any involvement with slavery in their family history. There are no living slave owners and no survivng slaves. The last generation to have even known someone who was a slave is in it's twilight. The time has passed, and the only thing reparations could hope to do is right a past injustice with a new injustice, and create enough animosity to set race relations back a century or so.

I don't have any problem paying Holocaust survivors, because they did go through the event, they lost their homes, business, and lives. They deserve compestation, but just because your great great great great.... grandma was a house slave doesn't mean that You deserve the money.

I agree. perhaps rather than compensating individuals, money should go to projects aimed at reducing the racial inequality and poverty that can be traced back to slavery.

Hey what about making Christians pay reparation to Satanists that had ancestors who suffered during the Episcopal Inquisition, the Spanish Inquisition, the Roman Inquisition, the Portuguese Inquisition, and witch hunts?

So until I get my fat check from Pat Robertson, I'm against reparation!

~Satanic Reverend Medivh~

There weren't very many Satanists back then....

Most of the people who were persecuted by witch hunters and the Inquisition were one of the following:

Jewish
Pagan
Muslim
Influential, unmarried women

How would you propose going about distributing these reparations? Would they be from a general pool of funds from all taxpayers, or would they only be from southern states, or from certain southern families and companies? I'd say certainly not from any of my money. Members of my family already paid that price at Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville, Gettysburg, Antietem, Cold Harbor, The Wilderness, Harpers Ferry, Bull Run and the rest, surely I can inherit no guilt for slavery from them, and therefore I should not be subject to being forced to pay slavery reparations. Or how about other folks whose ancestors didn't arive in the US until well after the abolition of slavery, they had nothing to do with slavery in the United States? How should they be handled?

Reperations are useless now. I'm white. One of my ancestors might have owned a slave. Big whoopty do. I also have native american blood in me. Native Americans were severely oppressed. They were forced onto tiny pieces of land that nobody wanted. The indian women and children were often gunned down. I'm part native American. If we want reparations to be fair, pay me. See my point? Why should we pay just the African Americans? Why should we pay anyone?

In WWII Japan, many Japanese companies used American GI's as slaves. Many were starved and/or worked to death. Many had axes in their backs. Why isn't Toyota or any other company held responsible? Where's the uproar. Many of the victims are still alive. Do we have to wait until they're all dead before the companies are held responsible? Why should anyone pay? Will money make slavery a concept that never existed? Of course, many blacks suffered from segregation, but why use slavery as an excuse for payment? If it was for segregation, fine. I'll pay you. How much do you need? But don't use slavery as an excuse. It's much too late.

There weren't very many Satanists back then....

No doubt, and that's because we were being hunted and killed left and right.

~Satanic Reverend Medivh~

Actually, we'd have to all move back to where we came from. And then, because we puched people out, there, we'd have to move even further back. And further. And further.

Eventually, we'd all be living in Africa. Six billion people. On one continent. I suppose we could use Antarctica, too.
We'd need to fight the penguins for it first.