NationStates Jolt Archive

I just sent my 4 year old to bed 30 minutes early. She says I am "not respecting her right to free speech", but I say my house my rules.

I thought maybe I was being too sensitive, so I told her I would confer with some people and get back to her. My husband is out with friends, but I know he would agree with me, just because I am the mom and what I say goes (we try to put up a united front)

anyway, what she did........

I have been telling her for 3 days that she needs to clean her room, I finally got tired today and told her that if it's not clean by 6p that I am going to throw away whatever was in my path, well, she hadn't even started to work on it, so I went to her room with a garbage bag and started throwing stuff away, she cried and said "let me work on it some more" and I said okay (but didn't give back what was already trashed)

30 min. later she still hadn't done anything so I told her to come into the living room, I said very calmly "you told me you were going to work on it, and you didn't, you have until bed time to make a big difference or I am coming back with the trash bag"

then, she said "yes ma'am" and did the hitler salute thingy and mumbled something about "nazi mom".

So, I sent her to bed early.

Am I denying her right to free speech? (which by the way she claims she has a constitutional right to)

I could be letting my emotion cloud my judgement, I mean I don't like being called a nazi, but I think it was over the line.

what do you think?

oh yeah, and I am not going to change my mind unless I get a really compelling arguement, I just thought it would be an interesting topic

do kids have freedom of speech? are there any limitations?

can she sue me? LOL just kidding about that one. :p

I don't really see how you're limiting her freedom of speech. If anything it sounds more like freedom of movement. Maybe I missed something.

By the way, your kid sounds like a very intelligent four year old.

My mom did that to my sister before when she was young. I say she needs to learn a little bit about respecting your authoritae (says in Cartman voice)

Seriously though, if she tried her 'free speech' in school she could get sent to the principals office. It is the same in your house, you lay down the rules. She was warned on multiple occaisons already.
PS: I didnt know what a nazi was when I was four...

Mediate and convince her that it is in your and especially her best interest that she go to bed.

Doesn't work then bribe her.

Still nothing?

Your house your rules, let your daughter work it out for herself.

your home your rules.

4 years old is way too young to get away with that kind of defiance. rude behavior, mean behavior, out of control behavior, violent behavior all have to be banned. no back talk, no eye rolling, no swearing, no rude comments or gestures allowed.

you should observe these rules yourself in order to have the maximum effect on your children

so what did you do about the messy room? is she getting another day to get it done because she was rude to you or are you going in and trashing the rest of her stuff?

My mom did that to my sister before when she was young. I say she needs to learn a little bit about respecting your authoritae (says in Cartman voice)

Seriously though, if she tried her 'free speech' in school she could get sent to the principals office. It is the same in your house, you lay down the rules. She was warned on multiple occaisons already.
PS: I didnt know what a nazi was when I was four...

she is homeschooled. We learn whatever she is interested in, and they had this thing about Hitler on the History channel the other day, so we learned about WW2. We do geography, history, math, science, reading ect. all centered around whatever she is interested in that week.

It makes sense to me that a 4-year old's "rights" are, or at least reasonably should be, encroached upon by the parents.

Even up until my 18th birthday, as much as my parents taught me to value personal freedoms even against them, I recognized that they were my guardians and whether or not I liked it, the only way out of that was to file for emancipation.

Hey, tell her that if she's willing to file such a motion, then take care of her own fiscal and educational needs until she's legally able to cash in those claims, you'll honour her wishes -- until that point, though, what Mom says, goes.

I just sent my 4 year old to bed 30 minutes early. She says I am "not respecting her right to free speech", but I say my house my rules.

I thought maybe I was being too sensitive, so I told her I would confer with some people and get back to her. My husband is out with friends, but I know he would agree with me, just because I am the mom and what I say goes (we try to put up a united front)

anyway, what she did........

I have been telling her for 3 days that she needs to clean her room, I finally got tired today and told her that if it's not clean by 6p that I am going to throw away whatever was in my path, well, she hadn't even started to work on it, so I went to her room with a garbage bag and started throwing stuff away, she cried and said "let me work on it some more" and I said okay (but didn't give back what was already trashed)

30 min. later she still hadn't done anything so I told her to come into the living room, I said very calmly "you told me you were going to work on it, and you didn't, you have until bed time to make a big difference or I am coming back with the trash bag"

then, she said "yes ma'am" and did the hitler salute thingy and mumbled something about "nazi mom".

So, I sent her to bed early.

Am I denying her right to free speech? (which by the way she claims she has a constitutional right to)

I could be letting my emotion cloud my judgement, I mean I don't like being called a nazi, but I think it was over the line.

what do you think?

oh yeah, and I am not going to change my mind unless I get a really compelling arguement, I just thought it would be an interesting topic

do kids have freedom of speech? are there any limitations?

can she sue me? LOL just kidding about that one. :p


Well, I woulnd't recommend actually throwing it away. Presumably, you paid for most of that crap. Put it away, and then you can use it to reward good behavior later.

your home your rules.

4 years old is way too young to get away with that kind of defiance. rude behavior, mean behavior, out of control behavior, violent behavior all have to be banned. no back talk, no eye rolling, no swearing, no rude comments or gestures allowed.

you should observe these rules yourself in order to have the maximum effect on your children

so what did you do about the messy room? is she getting another day to get it done because she was rude to you or are you going in and trashing the rest of her stuff?
I trashed everything that wasn't picked up, trash in one bag toys/clothes in another, we are going to donate the non-trash items tomorrow, so that someone who will respect them can have them.

give her a spanking and tell her not to sass, then take away her toys and make her earn them back. if you let her get away with it at the age of 4, then you have no hope for being an authoritive figure or having her respect once she reaches high school.

I just sent my 4 year old to bed 30 minutes early. She says I am "not respecting her right to free speech", but I say my house my rules.

I thought maybe I was being too sensitive, so I told her I would confer with some people and get back to her. My husband is out with friends, but I know he would agree with me, just because I am the mom and what I say goes (we try to put up a united front)

anyway, what she did........

I have been telling her for 3 days that she needs to clean her room, I finally got tired today and told her that if it's not clean by 6p that I am going to throw away whatever was in my path, well, she hadn't even started to work on it, so I went to her room with a garbage bag and started throwing stuff away, she cried and said "let me work on it some more" and I said okay (but didn't give back what was already trashed)

30 min. later she still hadn't done anything so I told her to come into the living room, I said very calmly "you told me you were going to work on it, and you didn't, you have until bed time to make a big difference or I am coming back with the trash bag"

then, she said "yes ma'am" and did the hitler salute thingy and mumbled something about "nazi mom".

So, I sent her to bed early.

Am I denying her right to free speech? (which by the way she claims she has a constitutional right to)

I could be letting my emotion cloud my judgement, I mean I don't like being called a nazi, but I think it was over the line.

what do you think?

oh yeah, and I am not going to change my mind unless I get a really compelling arguement, I just thought it would be an interesting topic

do kids have freedom of speech? are there any limitations?

can she sue me? LOL just kidding about that one. :p
hmm... one thing you could have tried was cleaning her room with her. make it like a game or something.

and you are right, your house: your rules. You are responsible for her. Should she get into trouble, it will fall on you and your husband... not her.

suggestions, Tell her she does have the right to say what she wants, when she wants and how loud she wants, but also remind her that you have a right to respond to what she says and she has a responsibility to accept the consiquenses of her excersising her freedoms. You did listen to her when she begged for more time, something most moms won't do after 3 days of inaction. When she failed to make good on her promise, you can cite a "Breach of Verbal Contract" which allowed you to either give warning or take action.

By excercising her right to call you a "Nazi Mom" you had the right to excercise your Parental responsiblities to "raise your child in a way deemed proper by the caregivers (a.k.a you)" to set rules and punnishment for insubordination and any other rule breaking.

(might wanna draw up a list of "rules" for her to live by with the stipulation that more will be added or removed depending on prior behavoir.)

and if you want, you can say that 3 days of warning to clean one's room is gracious indeed. I was grounded for many days after 1 day of inaction on my part in the aforementioned activity of domicile cleaniness, and many of my childhood possessions did find their way to the local landfill. :(

I trashed everything that wasn't picked up, trash in one bag toys/clothes in another, we are going to donate the non-trash items tomorrow, so that someone who will respect them can have them.
or e-bay... you never know...

can she sue me? LOL just kidding about that one. :p
I don't know, you do live in the US. You can sue stores if your kid gets in your way, and win.

I agree with you punishing her. When my younger sister wouldn't clean her room, all her toys were moved to another room (which we weren't allowed in) for a month. If she got caught trying to smuggle a toy back it added a week to the sentence. She probably had her stuff moved to that room about 4 or 5 times.

she is homeschooled. We learn whatever she is interested in, and they had this thing about Hitler on the History channel the other day, so we learned about WW2. We do geography, history, math, science, reading ect. all centered around whatever she is interested in that week.
she's going to be very interesting to watch when she starts school. :p

She says I am "not respecting her right to free speech", but I say my house my rules [...]
then, she said "yes ma'am" and did the hitler salute thingy and mumbled something about "nazi mom".
Bwahahaha:D

But seriously - she what?

Honestly, she's 4. "Free speech" doesn't even figure here. She just used fancy words to do the usual testing-of-parents'-limits.


Just don't really throw the stuff away, that would be horrible for her. No need to tell her that right away, of course.;)

The Constitution only applies to the government and government run agencies.

Unless the government is using you to raise super spartan soldiers....no, she's not right. If it were a public school and something like that happened, then she is right.

But under those circumstances, you are not opressing her in any way, and she does not have the right to revolt.......


....staging one in school however......

She has a point of course.

She says something you don't like and you punish her for that. A better approach might be have been to explain her why you thought her comment was not apropriate. After all - do you think that she is currently regretting her comment or do you think that she still thinks that it was right to say that? If she feels that she was unjustly punished, then she probalby won't learn anything from it.

hmm... one thing you could have tried was cleaning her room with her. make it like a game or something.
I help my 2 year old clean her room, my 4 year old has been doing it by herself for almost a year now, she seems to be going through a rebellion or something.
She knows what her responisiblities are, I shouldn't have let her go 3 days.

suggestions, Tell her she does have the right to say what she wants, when she wants and how loud she wants, but also remind her that you have a right to respond to what she says and she has a responsibility to accept the consiquenses of her excersising her freedoms. You did listen to her when she begged for more time, something most moms won't do after 3 days of inaction. When she failed to make good on her promise, you can cite a "Breach of Verbal Contract" which allowed you to either give warning or take action.
breach of verbal contract? I like that, I think that will work nicely.


(might wanna draw up a list of "rules" for her to live by with the stipulation that more will be added or removed depending on prior behavoir.)
yeah she has a list of responsibilities, I may have to add "respecting others feelings" to it, this is the first time she has really talked back to me.

Smunkeeville,

You are the mom, you are the authority in your house hold. She had no right calling you a Nazi-mom. Here is what you do, when she comes home, have your mortgage, bills, everything that you have to pay for in order to have a decent life. Have all of that out on the table. When she ask you what is going on, you tell her that this is what you have to pay in order to support the family. Tell her that if she feels like she is being treated unfairly, then she should get a job and start paying the bills. But until that time, you are the authority in the house, you make the rules and she has to live by them. She may call your house "home", but until she starts paying the bills, it's not her house.

she is homeschooled. We learn whatever she is interested in, and they had this thing about Hitler on the History channel the other day, so we learned about WW2. We do geography, history, math, science, reading ect. all centered around whatever she is interested in that week.
Meanwhile I am reading "The Great Expectations" and learing about Genetic Engineering:(

I wish I could learn what I was interested in. Though that would be all baseball and history...

Meanwhile I am reading "The Great Expectations" and learing about Genetic Engineering:(

I wish I could learn what I was interested in. Though that would be all baseball and history...
*thinks about M3rcenaries with the worlds largest collection of Baseball Cards... retiring after only selling off half of his 'worthless' cards.*

Meanwhile I am reading "The Great Expectations" and learing about Genetic Engineering:(
yeah.

I wish I could learn what I was interested in. Though that would be all baseball and history...
You could learn a lot from baseball (well, kids can)
History- we could talk about civil rights and Jackie Robinson
Math- stats of course
Reading- biography of a baseball player, and do a book report
Geography- learn about the United States by learning which baseball team is where, also chart out on a map their travels by looking at their schedule.

see? it works.

I trashed everything that wasn't picked up, trash in one bag toys/clothes in another, we are going to donate the non-trash items tomorrow, so that someone who will respect them can have them.
good

you should never have to do that again. i hope you dont have to toss out too many treasured items.

breach of verbal contract? I like that, I think that will work nicely. carefull that can be used against you as well...

yeah she has a list of responsibilities, I may have to add "respecting others feelings" to it, this is the first time she has really talked back to me.then you need to quell that asap. might want to add "Respecting those older than you."

I help my 2 year old clean her room, my 4 year old has been doing it by herself for almost a year now, she seems to be going through a rebellion or something.
She knows what her responisiblities are, I shouldn't have let her go 3 days.
Kids do this all the time. It all depends on how much of a neat freak they are. Some kids may be perfectly fine with a messy room when that might not go along with your standards. All in all I think you should go for a balance here. Don't go along the lines of cleaning it up for her or throwing everthing out but try to explain to her the importance of order and cleanliness. Who knows maybe your kid will actually do it if you take that approach or she may just like to procrastinate.


breach of verbal contract? I like that, I think that will work nicely.
I think that's alittle heavy for a 4 year old. Or she may be smart and ask you to prove said verbal contract ever existed ;)



yeah she has a list of responsibilities, I may have to add "respecting others feelings" to it, this is the first time she has really talked back to me.
Well there is always the option of the belt. It will sure put the fear of god or at least you in her.

THis reminds of the episode of The Cosby Show when Theo is teaching a class. They're learning about democracy (I think) and the kids vote to go out to recess ("We live in America which is a democracy, so..."). Theo responds: "Out there is America, in here is Theoland."

*thinks about M3rcenaries with the worlds largest collection of Baseball Cards... retiring after only selling off half of his 'worthless' cards.*
:D That would be awesome. Then I could buy a loft in downtown Chicago and attend every whitesox homegame- with first row seats!

*faints at the idea of leading such a fulfilling life

Well there is always the option of the belt. It will sure put the fear of god or at least you in her.
I very much disagree. Respect is what's going to create a more harmonious relationship for life, not fear.

Fear usually stops working when she realizes that abuse isn't tolerated and does something about it.

Simonist']I very much disagree. Respect is what's going to create a more harmonious relationship for life, not fear.

Fear usually stops working when she realizes that abuse isn't tolerated and does something about it.

Since when is spanking your child considered abuse? My dad spanked me all the time when I was little and I turned out fine.

Since when is spanking your child considered abuse? My dad spanked me all the time when I was little and I turned out fine.
Spanking is one thing. But it's well known by everybody who's ever experienced both that there's a large difference between simple spanking and getting hit around with a belt.

I think that's alittle heavy for a 4 year old. Or she may be smart and ask you to prove said verbal contract ever existed ;)
yeah, I talked to her, and she said almost exactly that.

I pointed out that her first amendment right keeps her government from stopping her free speech, and that I am not a government official, also I pointed out that when you live somewhere that is not your own you have to follow rules, like in my first apartment there was a rule against pets.

I told her that tomorrow we can sit down and make a list of rules and responisbilities and come to an agreement on what is fair. She seems to like that idea, she is already thinking about what she will "bring to the meeting"

I let her pull out one toy from the trash bag, but he is going to be put up for a while. The rest she understands are going to be donated, because of her lack of respect for her belongings.

quit debating the rules with your kid. she knows the rules. all you need to do is say what she did wrong. no discussion until after the punishment is over. you can discuss the appropriateness of rules during scheduled "rule discussing meetings" if necessary

if you dont stop this now youll end up on a bill cosby routine where your daughter gets INTO the shower but doesnt TAKE a shower because thats all you told her to do, you didnt mention WATER...

you dont want that kind of kid.

My mom had what she called "The Saturday closet." We left stuff out and did not pick it up when asked to? Into the closet it went for a week. Did it a second time? Gave it away and no, did not replace it.

It worked, I can tell you.

Just be sure she doesn't start doing it intentionally to get you to clean her room/guilt you into getting her new stuff. ;)

I think that's alittle heavy for a 4 year old. Or she may be smart and ask you to prove said verbal contract ever existed ;) The verbal contract was here...
I have been telling her for 3 days that she needs to clean her room, I finally got tired today and told her that if it's not clean by 6p that I am going to throw away whatever was in my path, well, she hadn't even started to work on it, so I went to her room with a garbage bag and started throwing stuff away, she cried and said "let me work on it some more" and I said okay (but didn't give back what was already trashed)

she begged for more time and Smunkeeville did agree to give her more time to "work on it" However, the daughter's failure to do anything about it did infact break the agreement of her getting more time.
Well there is always the option of the belt. It will sure put the fear of god or at least you in her.or cause her to gain a high threshold of pain... (like I did... I was a very naughty boy :p )

yeah, I talked to her, and she said almost exactly that.

I pointed out that her first amendment right keeps her government from stopping her free speech, and that I am not a government official, also I pointed out that when you live somewhere that is not your own you have to follow rules, like in my first apartment there was a rule against pets.

I told her that tomorrow we can sit down and make a list of rules and responisbilities and come to an agreement on what is fair. She seems to like that idea, she is already thinking about what she will "bring to the meeting"

I let her pull out one toy from the trash bag, but he is going to be put up for a while. The rest she understands are going to be donated, because of her lack of respect for her belongings.Nice solution.

With her interest in history, this will be interesting indeed. Especially if she views this as a personal Constitution (especially with a 'Signing' at the bottom). Be sure your Husband is involved (duh :rolleyes: ) don't want him getting caught unawares.

My mom had what she called "The Saturday closet." We left stuff out and did not pick it up when asked to? Into the closet it went for a week. Did it a second time? Gave it away and no, did not replace it.
Saturday closet, I like that. I will put that into the revised rules tomorrow night.

I can't very well not donate these toys now, I don't want her to see me back down. The most dangerous thing with a kid is to be inconsistent. I learned when I was young that my mom never would really do what she said she would. I don't want my kids to learn that.

Just be sure she doesn't start doing it intentionally to get you to clean her room/guilt you into getting her new stuff. ;)
yeah. This is the first time we have had this type of problem, I am going to make sure it's not the start of a pattern.

and someone TG'd me to ask if I was going to replace everything, and the answer is no, she didn't take care of it, she can't have it.

She is down some My Little Ponys and some other stuff, and her wardrobe is more limited now, but oh well.

*snip*
Am I denying her right to free speech? (which by the way she claims she has a constitutional right to)

I could be letting my emotion cloud my judgement, I mean I don't like being called a nazi, but I think it was over the line.

what do you think?

oh yeah, and I am not going to change my mind unless I get a really compelling arguement, I just thought it would be an interesting topic

do kids have freedom of speech? are there any limitations?

can she sue me? LOL just kidding about that one. :p

Sounds like you have a mini-genius in the works. ;)

Explain to her that she does indeed have the right to free speech, but even "free speech" has it's consequences when used inappropriately. After all you can't exactly say to a cop: "I'm going to shoot you, nazi pig!" then detract from the comment by claiming "free speech" once you've been riddled with bullets.

Well, give her your own version of that. My son is probably warped as a direct result of my explanations.

Smunkeeville,

You are the mom, you are the authority in your house hold. She had no right calling you a Nazi-mom. Here is what you do, when she comes home, have your mortgage, bills, everything that you have to pay for in order to have a decent life. Have all of that out on the table. When she ask you what is going on, you tell her that this is what you have to pay in order to support the family. Tell her that if she feels like she is being treated unfairly, then she should get a job and start paying the bills. But until that time, you are the authority in the house, you make the rules and she has to live by them. She may call your house "home", but until she starts paying the bills, it's not her house.

I like this but I think it's more for an older child.

I firmly believe that a child is molded between 1 and 6. If you get control then you will have control through the teen years. If you don't get control NOW you are in trouble.

Sell or give away everything is fine, BUT children of that age are like small animals. Punishment must be swift and immediate. That is why you should have shown her what the flat open hand could be used for. (One swat not a beating.) As the child grows in understanding, and reasoning longer term punishment works. Long term for a 4 year old is less than 5 minutes. If you delay punishment longer than that the mind of the child doesn't make the connection between action and result. Just like you can't punish a puppy 5 minutes later for peeing on the carpet. You must catch it in the act and take immediate action.

My children are 21, 18, and 15. We came down on them between 1 and 6. Since then we have seldom had to punish them in any way. Just like a trained animal, once they know the limits, they limit themselves. That is what making a child into a respected member of society is all about. Teaching them to limit themselves.

give her a spanking and tell her not to sass, then take away her toys and make her earn them back. if you let her get away with it at the age of 4, then you have no hope for being an authoritive figure or having her respect once she reaches high school.
That makes perfect sense to me.
Which means it must be wrong...........

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
You should make her learn about Communist oppression.

I just sent my 4 year old to bed 30 minutes early. She says I am "not respecting her right to free speech", but I say my house my rules.

I have been telling her for 3 days that she needs to clean her room, I finally got tired today and told her that if it's not clean by 6p that I am going to throw away whatever was in my path, well, she hadn't even started to work on it, so I went to her room with a garbage bag and started throwing stuff away, she cried and said "let me work on it some more" and I said okay (but didn't give back what was already trashed)

30 min. later she still hadn't done anything so I told her to come into the living room, I said very calmly "you told me you were going to work on it, and you didn't, you have until bed time to make a big difference or I am coming back with the trash bag"

then, she said "yes ma'am" and did the hitler salute thingy and mumbled something about "nazi mom".

So, I sent her to bed early.

Am I denying her right to free speech? (which by the way she claims she has a constitutional right to)

I could be letting my emotion cloud my judgement, I mean I don't like being called a nazi, but I think it was over the line.

I am not going to change my mind unless I get a really compelling arguement, I just thought it would be an interesting topic

do kids have freedom of speech? are there any limitations?
You are the mommie. It is your responsibility to care for your child. Part of that responsibility is setting rules and limits and making sure they are adhered to.

Calling mommie a nazi is wayy out of line. That's disrespectful and she should not be allowed to call anyone that, much less her own parents. You were a lot more lenient on that score than I would have been.

Having said that, do try to keep in mind that the child is only 4 years old. She has yet to develop the same sense of time that you have. One thing I did when mine were little that seemed to help was divide a task into several smaller tasks and help them complete the first two or so, usually by detailed on the scene instruction. After a few times of this, she should get the idea that when momie says "30 minutes," that means something other than "later."

I just sent my 4 year old to bed 30 minutes early. She says I am "not respecting her right to free speech", but I say my house my rules.

Technically the counterargument to the kid is simple. Freedom of Speech refers to freedom from intereference to the right of expression from the government or government agencies. It does NOT protect you from social or other consequences from non-government agencies.

You run into "reasonableness" in applying the freedom there and it is NOT unreasonable for the parent of a four year old to restrict their children in this way.

However, I admire the fact that a 4 year old kid can even consider applying a constitutional right... even if it don't fly. I think when I was four I was thinking how neat my legos were, all fitting together and neat colors...

I like this but I think it's more for an older child.

I firmly believe that a child is molded between 1 and 6. If you get control then you will have control through the teen years. If you don't get control NOW you are in trouble.

Sell or give away everything is fine, BUT children of that age are like small animals. Punishment must be swift and immediate. That is why you should have shown her what the flat open hand could be used for. (One swat not a beating.) As the child grows in understanding, and reasoning longer term punishment works. Long term for a 4 year old is less than 5 minutes. If you delay punishment longer than that the mind of the child doesn't make the connection between action and result. Just like you can't punish a puppy 5 minutes later for peeing on the carpet. You must catch it in the act and take immediate action.

My children are 21, 18, and 15. We came down on them between 1 and 6. Since then we have seldom had to punish them in any way. Just like a trained animal, once they know the limits, they limit themselves. That is what making a child into a respected member of society is all about. Teaching them to limit themselves.

I see what you are trying to say, but first my 4 year old isn't a regular 4 year old, she has a high IQ (higher than mine:( ) and the vocabulary of an 11 year old. I try hard to remember that she is only 4 though.

I don't spank, at all. I think it would teach my kids lessons that I don't want them to learn, like

you can hit people when you are mad
if you do something wrong you deserve to get hit
if you are bigger you can solve problems with violence
if you don't get caught, it's not wrong
if you do get caught, then there aren't any long term consequences.

Well there is always the option of the belt. It will sure put the fear of god or at least you in her.
Please do not do that. I spanked my kids way too soon, especially the three from my wife's first marriage. It wasn't until we had two more that I realized how little they had been when I spanked them. I have apologized to them several times over the years for having been too harsh with them. :(

I see what you are trying to say, but first my 4 year old isn't a regular 4 year old, she has a high IQ (higher than mine:( ) and the vocabulary of an 11 year old. I try hard to remember that she is only 4 though.

I don't spank, at all. I think it would teach my kids lessons that I don't want them to learn, like

you can hit people when you are mad
if you do something wrong you deserve to get hit
if you are bigger you can solve problems with violence
if you don't get caught, it's not wrong
if you do get caught, then there aren't any long term consequences.
Dealing with a bright child is often much more difficult. I found that it was wise to be able to explain the "why" of things and let them mull it over for awhile. If it's logical, they will almost always come to the correct conclusion on their own.

Good for you for not resorting to spanking. It's an easy way out for now, but has later consequences.

Please do not do that. I spanked my kids way too soon, especially the three from my wife's first marriage. It wasn't until we had two more that I realized how little they had been when I spanked them. I have apologized to them several times over the years for having been too harsh with them. :(
yeah, no spankings here.

I worry about being to harsh with her sometimes, sure she is highly intelligent, but she is only 4. I try to do a "reality check" often to make sure that I am not expecting too much of her. Since she has been keeping on top of her room for almost a year, I think it's safe for me to assume that this is something she can do, even if she doesn't really want to.

Simonist']Spanking is one thing. But it's well known by everybody who's ever experienced both that there's a large difference between simple spanking and getting hit around with a belt.

You do realize that people spank with belts too, my grandpa did that.

It seems that she may be going through one of those periodic "Let's try mommie on for size" things. Kids will cycle back through this over the years, so just be forwarned. heh!

Reasonable, rational rules enforced fairly and uniformly will usually have the desired effect. It may take awhile, but it's far more effective to have your child conclude that you are correct than to have them do it because they fear you.

You do realize that people spank with belts too, my grandpa did that.
So did my father. I deeply resented it, especially when he refused to listen to my side of the story. :(

yeah, no spankings here.

I worry about being to harsh with her sometimes, sure she is highly intelligent, but she is only 4. I try to do a "reality check" often to make sure that I am not expecting too much of her. Since she has been keeping on top of her room for almost a year, I think it's safe for me to assume that this is something she can do, even if she doesn't really want to.
you know, this brings me back to when my mother would be on me to keep my room clean...

and the look on her face when I could produce, within seconds, any item she would ask for. I knew where everything was in that room.

So did my father. I deeply resented it, especially when he refused to listen to my side of the story. :(

Yea, but I bet you're better off for it.

You do realize that people spank with belts too, my grandpa did that.
yeah, and with switches, and hair brushes, and flyswatters........... I think it's irresponisble to hit your children for any reason. If you did that to an adult you would be charged with assault, but to do it to your kid is 'okay'.

I grew up with a "spanking family" and I don't think it taught me anything but how not to get caught, well, that and that cherry trees do NOT make good switches. ;)

I worry about being to harsh with her sometimes, sure she is highly intelligent, but she is only 4. I try to do a "reality check" often to make sure that I am not expecting too much of her. Since she has been keeping on top of her room for almost a year, I think it's safe for me to assume that this is something she can do, even if she doesn't really want to.
View it as an opportunity to teach her how to become self-disciplined. As I state elsewhere, it's best with a bright child to explain the why of things and let them think it over. Much better to have them do things because they agree with you than because they fear you.

Yea, but I bet you're better off for it.
No way to tell. I do know there is a difference ( not attributable to genetics ) between my three older children and my two younger ones. The older ones are more dogmatic and procedural oriented than the younger ones, for one thing, and they often seem to avoid any sort of risk.

I grew up with a "spanking family" and I don't think it taught me anything but how not to get caught, well, that and that cherry trees do NOT make good switches. ;)
Me too. It taught me to lie and avoid my father. It almost succeeded in teaching me to hate him, but I eventually overcame that.

She's four. Even though she has an high IQ, I doubt she has the emotional maturity to fully understand what being called a nazi really implies. You should at least explain to her why she shouldn't call you a nazi.

Me too. It taught me to lie and avoid my father. It almost succeeded in teaching me to hate him, but I eventually overcame that.
gee... for me it's almost different. all my spankings (with a wooden cooking spoon no less) was done by my mother. yet it's my father I have difficulty speaking with. (don't bother analysing it... I know the cause)

She's four. Even though she has an high IQ, I doubt she has the emotional maturity to fully understand what being called a nazi really implies. You should at least explain to her why she shouldn't call you a nazi.
Agreed. Perhaps some movies about Nazi attrocities? Then ask her, "Is this really how you want to think about your mommie?"

gee... for me it's almost different. all my spankings (with a wooden cooking spoon no less) was done by my mother. yet it's my father I have difficulty speaking with. (don't bother analysing it... I know the cause)
:fluffle:

Agreed. Perhaps some movies about Nazi attrocities? Then ask her, "Is this really how you want to think about your mommie?"

Make sure thier kids movies, though. There is a reason why children are not allowed in certain areas of the Holocaust Museum.

Make sure thier kids movies, though. There is a reason why children are not allowed in certain areas of the Holocaust Museum.
True. I thought that went without saying, but perhaps not. :)

so, my husband just got home. He says I was absolutly justified, and he will talk to her tomorrow about how she needs to have more respect for me. We are having the rules meeting tomorrow night and I am going to buy a big poster board and make sure they are posted where she can see them.

Saturday closet is going to be a new thing around here, my husband thinks it's a good idea.

Thank you everyone, sometimes my kid is so smart she makes me question myself, I suppose I need to work on that.

I never expected her to try to assert her first amendment right over cleaning her room. I suppose what they say is true "if you are going to teach them something be prepared for them to try to use it against you"

needless to say we are going to do a unit on the US government and constitution next week. ;)

Whether or not she has a high IQ, it sounds to me like you did the right thing. You told her what the problem was, how to fix it, and what would happen if she chose (operative word, there) not to address it. Doesn't seem like a punishment to me; seems like consequences. And there is a big difference between the two.

Of course, that was MY mother's theory of child-raising, and she managed to raise 3 of us, also homeschooled, also all really smart, and all realtively well-adjusted! So I'm biased. :)

But it seems to me that we are never too young to learn that every choice we make has a consequence. (One of the benefits of childhood is that, when making these kinds of choices, at least we KNOW what the consequences will be! As adults we don't always have the luxury of foreknowledge! LOL)

Just my .02. :)

Whether or not she has a high IQ, it sounds to me like you did the right thing. You told her what the problem was, how to fix it, and what would happen if she chose (operative word, there) not to address it. Doesn't seem like a punishment to me; seems like consequences. And there is a big difference between the two.

Of course, that was MY mother's theory of child-raising, and she managed to raise 3 of us, also homeschooled, also all really smart, and all realtively well-adjusted! So I'm biased. :)

But it seems to me that we are never too young to learn that every choice we make has a consequence. (One of the benefits of childhood is that, when making these kinds of choices, at least we KNOW what the consequences will be! As adults we don't always have the luxury of foreknowledge! LOL)

Just my .02. :)
And a very good $0.02 it is. :)

Heck, I would pay an entire nickel!

Heck, I would pay an entire nickel!
[ nudges Emerald-City ] Hey, man. I'll run the bidding up for ya for a slice of the action! :D

I see what you are trying to say, but first my 4 year old isn't a regular 4 year old, she has a high IQ (higher than mine:( ) and the vocabulary of an 11 year old. I try hard to remember that she is only 4 though.

I don't spank, at all. I think it would teach my kids lessons that I don't want them to learn, like

you can hit people when you are mad
if you do something wrong you deserve to get hit
if you are bigger you can solve problems with violence
if you don't get caught, it's not wrong
if you do get caught, then there aren't any long term consequences.

You are thinking like an adult, not at the level of child. On a shallow level you would seem to be correct. But, a child operates at a different level. In 10 or 12 years you will have had control from 4 or you will never have control. Intelligence just means the child learns faster. One time and she get's the idea. It doesn't change her into a miniture adult. It doesn't change her sense of time and cause-effect. As someone said, 30 minutes means nothing. I used to say one Sesame Street. Or Grandma is 10 Sesame Streets away. If something needed done, put in a Sesame Street tape and say when the show ends the job needs to be done.

Cause-Effect must be immediate. Wait any time at all and the connection isn't made. Notice I was not the one to talk about belts, spoons, etc. I would never hurt a child, just sting them. The object is not to hurt the child the object is to have an immediate effect. It's also not to punish in anger. Never lose your cool with a child. They do nothing out of hate, they operate on instinct. The first thing to hit their mind is what they do. As you wouldn't operate out of anger if a puppy peed on the carpet, why have anger for a child? A child doesn't choose anymore than a puppy. That of course changes as they age.

This may seem crazy. But I teach communications at the college level part time. From time to time we get off on the difference between communication at the child level and communication at the adult level. Nearly always I can pick out the college students whose parents used immediate punishment at the child level and those whos didn't. Those that were trained between 1 and 6 are far more serious about learning. They don't worry about reward, just do the job because it is right to do it. Those that didn't get trained are self-serving, demanding, think everything must have a reward, never work as a team member. In other words, they still operate at the 4 year old instinct level. I feel sorry for their employers and spouces. No wonder the divorce rate is so high.

so, my husband just got home. He says I was absolutly justified, and he will talk to her tomorrow about how she needs to have more respect for me. We are having the rules meeting tomorrow night and I am going to buy a big poster board and make sure they are posted where she can see them.

Saturday closet is going to be a new thing around here, my husband thinks it's a good idea.

Thank you everyone, sometimes my kid is so smart she makes me question myself, I suppose I need to work on that.

I never expected her to try to assert her first amendment right over cleaning her room. I suppose what they say is true "if you are going to teach them something be prepared for them to try to use it against you"

needless to say we are going to do a unit on the US government and constitution next week. ;)any chance we can see the final results?

any chance we can see the final results?
sure I will post them tomorrow night. ;)

I just want to give you mad props for a) having an incredibly intelligent child (and yes, that is props to you and your husband since the learning and curosity is something you both have instelled in them) b) resolving it without the use of spanking and c) for being an all around cool mom..... my parents were much like you in that they were tough on me with school and studying and things like that.

*starts slow applause, standing ovation*

You are thinking like an adult, not at the level of child. On a shallow level you would seem to be correct. But, a child operates at a different level. In 10 or 12 years you will have had control from 4 or you will never have control. Intelligence just means the child learns faster. One time and she get's the idea. It doesn't change her into a miniture adult. It doesn't change her sense of time and cause-effect. As someone said, 30 minutes means nothing. I used to say one Sesame Street. Or Grandma is 10 Sesame Streets away. If something needed done, put in a Sesame Street tape and say when the show ends the job needs to be done.
well, she can tell time (digital and analog) so she knows when 30 min. is, maybe I will buy her an egg timer to help.

Cause-Effect must be immediate. Wait any time at all and the connection isn't made. Notice I was not the one to talk about belts, spoons, etc. I would never hurt a child, just sting them. The object is not to hurt the child the object is to have an immediate effect. It's also not to punish in anger. Never lose your cool with a child. They do nothing out of hate, they operate on instinct. The first thing to hit their mind is what they do. As you wouldn't operate out of anger if a puppy peed on the carpet, why have anger for a child? A child doesn't choose anymore than a puppy. That of course changes as they age.
my child isn't a puppy, she is a person. She is responisble for her actions up to the point where she understands, she knew full well that there would be a consequence for not cleaning her room and she knew what it would be. My reaction to her calling me a name was immediate.

This may seem crazy. But I teach communications at the college level part time. From time to time we get off on the difference between communication at the child level and communication at the adult level.
I don't treat my children as less than what they are, and that is people, if I change the way I talk to them it's in vocabulary only. She didn't get as smart as she is by me treating her like a small pet, I treat her like a person, I expect her to act like one.


Nearly always I can pick out the college students whose parents used immediate punishment at the child level and those whos didn't. Those that were trained between 1 and 6 are far more serious about learning. They don't worry about reward, just do the job because it is right to do it. Those that didn't get trained are self-serving, demanding, think everything must have a reward, never work as a team member. In other words, they still operate at the 4 year old instinct level. I feel sorry for their employers and spouces. No wonder the divorce rate is so high.
I understand what you are saying, but I think there are different reasons. I don't want my kids to do what needs to be done out of fear or punishment, I want them to do it because it needs to be done, very rarely do I ever have to do something like I did tonight, because 99% of the time they live up to my expectations. Tonight she was testing me, and she found out where the line is.

Simonist']Spanking is one thing. But it's well known by everybody who's ever experienced both that there's a large difference between simple spanking and getting hit around with a belt.


Corporal punishment is a pet peeve of mine, because of a traumatic childhood. However, children do need limits. Smunkeeville was not restricting her daughter's free speech, because she (Smunkeeville) has a right not to be insulted.

Umm...

You need to do something soon.

If she's this way at four, image when she's in her teens.


Spanking works well. ;)

Sounds like the perfect way to learn about freedom of speech to me: you are free to say anything you want, provided you are willing to accept the consequences of what you say.

Besides, if she calls you a "nazi mom" again, you have my permission to start performing unnecessary medical experiments on her.:D

Umm...

You need to do something soon.

If she's this way at four, image when she's in her teens.
all 4 year olds throw fits at some point, most of them will even call you a name out of anger, just most of the time it's more like "poopy head" or "booger eater", my kid's insults just tend to be on a higher level I suppose.

Spanking works well. ;)
for what exactly?

Parents need to be dictators, otherwise their kids'll end up doing stupid shit and probably harming themselves in some way or other. At 4 yrs old there still time to save her, but if I ever called my parents "hitler mom/dad" I was going to receive some "tough love." I suggest the same thing.

A four-year-old child does not begin to understand that rights and responsibilities go together. One does not have rights until one can take responsibility for ones actions. It's that simple. Children have protections and not rights for that very reason. Children that age are not usually rational beings, so reasoning with them is out of the question. What they do understand is consequences. 1st offense - time out (or early to bed), 2nd offense - lose a privilege (say playing with a friend after school or not watching a favorite T.V. show), 3d offense - spanking (I don't advocate beatings, but one or two sharp swats on the bare bottom will usually get the point across). The disciplinary actions must be immediate otherwise they won't make an impression.

I raised two kids (as a single parent) using this method. My son and daughter are both veterans (Navy-Desert Storm) and have respect for authority without always having to agree with it.

You are thinking like an adult, not at the level of child. On a shallow level you would seem to be correct. But, a child operates at a different level. In 10 or 12 years you will have had control from 4 or you will never have control. Intelligence just means the child learns faster. One time and she get's the idea. It doesn't change her into a miniture adult. It doesn't change her sense of time and cause-effect. As someone said, 30 minutes means nothing. I used to say one Sesame Street. Or Grandma is 10 Sesame Streets away. If something needed done, put in a Sesame Street tape and say when the show ends the job needs to be done.

Cause-Effect must be immediate. Wait any time at all and the connection isn't made. Notice I was not the one to talk about belts, spoons, etc. I would never hurt a child, just sting them. The object is not to hurt the child the object is to have an immediate effect. It's also not to punish in anger. Never lose your cool with a child. They do nothing out of hate, they operate on instinct. The first thing to hit their mind is what they do. As you wouldn't operate out of anger if a puppy peed on the carpet, why have anger for a child? A child doesn't choose anymore than a puppy. That of course changes as they age.

This may seem crazy. But I teach communications at the college level part time. From time to time we get off on the difference between communication at the child level and communication at the adult level. Nearly always I can pick out the college students whose parents used immediate punishment at the child level and those whos didn't. Those that were trained between 1 and 6 are far more serious about learning. They don't worry about reward, just do the job because it is right to do it. Those that didn't get trained are self-serving, demanding, think everything must have a reward, never work as a team member. In other words, they still operate at the 4 year old instinct level. I feel sorry for their employers and spouces. No wonder the divorce rate is so high.
im not sure if you are supporting her or saying she did it wrong.

as far as i can tell, she did it exactly right. her daughter called her a nazi and was immediately sent to bed. she didnt pick up her stuff and now she is losing whatever was left out. (but mom showed mercy and let her keep the one most important item)

consequences and follow-through are essential. too many parents think that if they keep yelling into the other room from their constant spot in the lazyboy their kids will eventually obey. what really happens is the kids learn to ignore the shouts up until the point where mom or dad lose their temper. sometimes they end up on the no punishment side sometimes they get punished. the lesson they learn is how to walk that line.