NationStates Jolt Archive

First of all Mussolini was one of the worst military commanders in history, he was a coward and a backstabber. He was forced to use poison gas and machine guns on Ethiopan tribalmen. Then while France lay crushed and bleeding he invaded from the south with 32 divisions, and was repulsed by 8 French divisions. Then he turned his eyes east to Albania, which he conquered with minor difficulty. Mussolini then invaded Greece, where he was butchered up by the Greeks. Hitler sent in several SS Divisions to bail out Mussolini, putting him back almost 2 months on his invasion of the Soviet Union, and therefore he bacame bogged down in a terrible Russian winter. Thats y Mussolini cost Hitler the war

And there was me thinking it was his decision to go after Russia in the first place (rather than consolidating the rest of Europe properly). One lives and learns.

And there was me thinking it was his decision to go after Russia in the first place (rather than consolidating the rest of Europe properly). One lives and learns.

That and his descision to switch from bombing the RAF to bombing British cities, he wanted revenge for RAF raids on German cities but if he'd kept up his attacks on the RAF for another week or so it would have been destroyed and he could have invaded with ease.

Had Britain fallen the US would have been left without a staging point for the liberation of Europe and we would have been really screwed.

who cares ??

yeah, he fucked up greece.

that's not to sya that hitler would win the war if he had gotten into russia earlier. russia had dozens of divisions in reserve behind the urals in siberia to gaurd against the japanese (who would soon be fully occupied by the US).

Hitler could be a tactical genius at times, but he made some big-ass strategic mistakes - betraying the Soviets = really bad idea.

Mussolini also supplied the Nazis a lot of troops. Soldiers were actually in short supply for the axis powers. In some ways the Italian army wasnt as bad as many people seem to believe. This seems to have been a misconception caused by succesful brittish propaganda.

Hitler cost himself the war. Mussolini actually delayed Hitler's biggest blunder by a few months. Hitler should have thanked Mussolini.

Hitler could be a tactical genius at times, but he made some big-ass strategic mistakes - betraying the Soviets = really bad idea.

true. bad timing indeed.

although, there were many things he could have done within the russian conflict had he not been an arrogant asshole. for instance, he should have sieged stalingrad like he did with petrograd (advanced because of arrogance) and should have seized the caucuses first, to bolster his suppyl and limit the soviet armor divisions.

Thats y Mussolini cost Hitler the war
Good on Mussolini, then.

No complaints here.

The Mussolini blunder was a problem, but not a critical one. Had the Japanese attacked Russia on 7/12/1941 rather than the States, Italy's inability to fight its own battles would have been acceptable and Europe, minus Britain, might have stayed under axis control for quite some time. In the end, Japan's assault on Pearl Harbour was a catastrophe. It tied up their forces in the wrong places, it got Europe attacked from the mediterranean and it allowed the Soviets to focus all their attention on the western front, thus driving the Nazis all the way back to Berlin.

Barbarrossa could have been successful.

Had he started 2 months earlier.
Had he pulled divisions from Norway to re-enforce Rommel => most likely defeating the British in Africa and making a southern drive on Russia.
Had he utilized the defecting Red forces and locals instead of terrorizing them (IMO the biggest mistake).
Had he not divided his forces and pushed straight for Moscow.

Totally nonsense ....

Hitler is not the man who won the first 3-4 years in WW2 ...this was the work of his generals...he was a poor little man and i am sure today noone will follow him

and therefore he bacame bogged down in a terrible Russian winter.

The German invasion of the USSR almost three years before it was repulsed. One Russian winter didn't doom the Nazis. Three did. No matter what Italy did in Greece, German troops would have become bogged down in a Russian winter sooner or later. Germany wasn't nearly ready to invade the USSR, and that's what cost Hitler the war.

The Mussolini blunder was a problem, but not a critical one. Had the Japanese attacked Russia on 7/12/1941 rather than the States, Italy's inability to fight its own battles would have been acceptable and Europe, minus Britain, might have stayed under axis control for quite some time. In the end, Japan's assault on Pearl Harbour was a catastrophe. It tied up their forces in the wrong places, it got Europe attacked from the mediterranean and it allowed the Soviets to focus all their attention on the western front, thus driving the Nazis all the way back to Berlin.

gotta watch those siberian divisions (abotu 30 of them, worth mentioning) that were never deployed on the soviets western front. plus the japanese had no long range bombers or effective armor force. they were a largely ww1 infantry style force and naval force, put against the russian steppes they would have failed.

The Mussolini blunder was a problem, but not a critical one. Had the Japanese attacked Russia on 7/12/1941 rather than the States, Italy's inability to fight its own battles would have been acceptable and Europe, minus Britain, might have stayed under axis control for quite some time. In the end, Japan's assault on Pearl Harbour was a catastrophe. It tied up their forces in the wrong places, it got Europe attacked from the mediterranean and it allowed the Soviets to focus all their attention on the western front, thus driving the Nazis all the way back to Berlin.

For the most part I agree. Hilter's maintaining that alliance and declaring war on the US was a big F*ck up. We still most likely would have gone to war but it would have given them 6-12 more months of preparation. Whether that would have made a difference w/ the Soviet advancing, that's up for debate.

Hitler cost Hitler the war, no one else.

And I agree with Hullepup...he was not a genius. Pretty much all "his ideas" where devised by his generals, Manstein mainly.

Nah, the almighty Russian winter stopped the enemy again.

Nah, the almighty Russian winter stopped the enemy again.
Slowed it down perhaps, but considering that German Forces were actually in visible range of Moscow, and the Soviets did not have any plans prepared along the lines of Alexander's when Napoleon came, chances were that it could have been won in Winter 1940/41.

Mussolini cost Hitler WWII? Did he? Well, good for him!

No complaints here.

he was a poor little man and i am sure today noone will follow him

Don't count on that. My great-aunt met him once. He was a charming man and a gifted orator.

This is kind of a side-branch to this conversation. But how did the Italian invasion of Ethiopia affect the war?

This is kind of a side-branch to this conversation. But how did the Italian invasion of Ethiopia affect the war?

It really didn't. I think he used it to show the Italian blunder by the fact guys with spears were disabling the Italian tanks.....

This is kind of a side-branch to this conversation. But how did the Italian invasion of Ethiopia affect the war?
In a way it led to the creation of the Afrikakorps.
Because Italian Forces essentially got their butt kicked, first by tribesmen, then by colonial forces, he begged Hitler for help.
Pity Hitler never realised that there was some value to Rommel's operations other than that they were good for propaganda.

gotta watch those siberian divisions (abotu 30 of them, worth mentioning) that were never deployed on the soviets western front. plus the japanese had no long range bombers or effective armor force. they were a largely ww1 infantry style force and naval force, put against the russian steppes they would have failed.
Possibly, but there's a large psycological effect you're forgetting. Japan and Russia were more or less afraid of each other thanks to the Russo-Japanese War. It's why the Showa Emperor was unwilling to push harder int China unless he provoked a Russian responce, and more or less the same for the USSR.

If Mussolini did cost Hitler the war, then I must thank him for his stupidity. His idiocy was a God-send. :)

Don't count on that. My great-aunt met him once. He was a charming man and a gifted orator.

So did my cousin's grandmother (who is from Germany). Not only did she shake his hand, but he bought her her first dress.

He was forced to use poison gas and machine guns on Ethiopan tribalmen.

Good thing Churchill never did anything that stupid. Oh, hang on.

Good thing Churchill never did anything that stupid. Oh, hang on.
I know the British did that in South Africa, but I think that was a little before Churchills time. I could be wrong.

I know the British did that in South Africa, but I think that was a little before Churchills time. I could be wrong.

I'm talking about gassing and machine-gunning the Kurds in 1922, or thereabouts.

that was probably chamberline, or the guy before that.

or it might have just been the regional governor of that territory.

that was probably chamberline, or the guy before that.

or it might have just been the regional governor of that territory.

Uh-huh.

"I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas. We have definitely adopted the position at the Peace Conference of arguing in favour of the retention of gas as a permanent method of warfare. It is sheer affectation to lacerate a man with the poisonous fragment of a bursting shell and to boggle at making his eyes water by means of lachrymatory gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes.

The moral effect should be so good that the loss of life should be reduced to a minimum. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected... We cannot, in any circumstances acquiesce to the non-utilisation of any weapons which are available to procure a speedy termination of the disorder which prevails on the frontier."

I'm talking about gassing and machine-gunning the Kurds in 1922, or thereabouts.
Yah my question was- is that Churchills fault?

Yah my question was- is that Churchills fault?

Seeing as he was serving as Secretary of State for the Colonies at the time, yes.

Seeing as he was serving as Secretary of State for the Colonies at the time, yes.

fair enough.

how exactly were they used against the kurds? kurd militatants, kurd civilians, or what?

fair enough.

how exactly were they used against the kurds? kurd militatants, kurd civilians, or what?

Basically they were used against entire villages.

First of all Mussolini was one of the worst military commanders in history, he was a coward and a backstabber. He was forced to use poison gas and machine guns on Ethiopan tribalmen. Then while France lay crushed and bleeding he invaded from the south with 32 divisions, and was repulsed by 8 French divisions. Then he turned his eyes east to Albania, which he conquered with minor difficulty. Mussolini then invaded Greece, where he was butchered up by the Greeks. Hitler sent in several SS Divisions to bail out Mussolini, putting him back almost 2 months on his invasion of the Soviet Union, and therefore he bacame bogged down in a terrible Russian winter. Thats y Mussolini cost Hitler the war
It wasn't just SS and i laugh at the SS we would have beaten them.
The invasion was delayed more so by flooding across the Rivers that needed to be crossed to get to the Soviets...

But Mussolini was a fool.

But Mussolini was a fool.
And thats all that matters:p

And thats all that matters:p
He had an Aerodome created to test Aeroplanes(Yes i use that outdated word:p ) except it was used to test Sports cars at the best of times.
Before declaring war on he actually released men from service to tend the fields obviously reducing the fighting capabilities of Italy.-Mind you people have to eat the question is did he 'need' to release them?

He had an Aerodome created to test Aeroplanes(Yes i use that outdated word:p ) except it was used to test Sports cars at the best of times.
Before declaring war on he actually released men from service to tend the fields obviously reducing the fighting capabilities of Italy.-Mind you people have to eat the question is did he 'need' to release them?
If Italy is laughed at for its military, at least it can be respected for its sports cars.

Which reminds me, when I had a project on France, the title of the project was
France: The first and only country to lose two wars to Italy
(of course I wasnt refering to ww2.. so dont all jump on me saying 'technicaly it wasnt a loss..'

First of all Mussolini was one of the worst military commanders in history, he was a coward and a backstabber. He was forced to use poison gas and machine guns on Ethiopan tribalmen. Then while France lay crushed and bleeding he invaded from the south with 32 divisions, and was repulsed by 8 French divisions. Then he turned his eyes east to Albania, which he conquered with minor difficulty. Mussolini then invaded Greece, where he was butchered up by the Greeks. Hitler sent in several SS Divisions to bail out Mussolini, putting him back almost 2 months on his invasion of the Soviet Union, and therefore he bacame bogged down in a terrible Russian winter. Thats y Mussolini cost Hitler the war

Alot of things cost Hitler the war, Mussolini was merely one of them (a minor one compared to the rest). First, invading Russia instead of the Middle East. I do not believe that the arabs at the time would have minded Hitler kicking the British out. It would have given Hitler access to the oil his military needed and the possibilty of a link-up with the Japs. Second, he didn't seem to take the advice of his best generals. Third, the drugs he was being injected with by his doctor and also him having Parkinson's probably didn't help.

Amazing what you can learn about Hitler from watching the American History Channel (Canadian History Channel is....ok). Although, I could have done without watching an hour long show on Hitler's sex life........somethings I don't want to know about history.

You don't invade Russia...period. Failing to nail down all of Europe and the Britts was clearly where Hitler made his largest mistake in the war. Hitler redirected men supplies to better complete the final solution instead of fighting his hardest at the end of the war, clearly he was a shit-ass general concerned only with his insane ambitions.

Hold Europe and build upon the military. The Britts, French, and all the rest were not without their predjudices to play on. Like he did with the Germans Hitler could have used his skills as an orator and propagandist to win supporters against a common enemy (Jews and other undesirables). Halting his further advance for a few years would have certainly slowed the American response and allowed him to fortify Europe under the Nazis.

If the Britts could not be won over he should have destroyed the RAF thouroughly as some have suggested and then systematically destroyed cities until an invasion was less costly or a surrender was negotiated. Hitler was ruthless he would have had no qualms in doing so. When the Americans did come to fight on the island they would have had trouble getting a foothold and this is when Hitler should have pulled the Japenese out of reserve. They then could surprise attack America when it had already concentrated it's forces in Europe. This would leave Hitler with just the Western front to focus on and America with both fronts and a lack of immediate resources in the Pacific Theater.

Don't count on that. My great-aunt met him once. He was a charming man and a gifted orator.
I've seen many people say that...and that's exactly why he got to the position he did.

Too many people underestimate the power of a person who is a brilliant orator and showman like Hitler.