NationStates Jolt Archive

something that's been annoying me recently is the fairly recent upsurge of what has been dubbed simply "character comedies" on british TV. programmes like Little Britain (http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40057000/jpg/_40057857_littlebritain_bbc_300x220.jpg), Catherine Tate show (http://www.dois.tv/images/press/catherine_tate_show/6303.JPG), and now this new one "Tittybangbang" (as seen here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/tv/)) all seem to be held with such reverence by the BBC and media, and people seem to like these kinds of show. well, i say "people" but these sorts of programmes are still stuck on the crappy (freeview digital ) channels and very few people i know actually like them.

my problem with them is that they are simply laughing at other people's misfortune - thats the german word i can't think of. i mean, gone are the days where snappy script writing, being sharp or witty, or inventing hilarious - or horribly embarassing - situations counted as funny. gone are the days when comedies still had some sembelance of plot and characterisation; we seem to be swamped with nonsense sketch shows promoting laughing at how 'silly' or stupid the one-dimensional characters are in every-day situations. and that is such a shame because, call me old-fashioned, but i still regard british humour very highly, and this i fear is an affront to that.

the occasional sketch from these sorts of shows can be quite funny, yes, but the basic premise is to laugh AT the people, not with them or simply laugh.

i'm definatley not an expert on british TV or comedy, but i think it started with monty python, but only occasionally and it was generally ridiculousness that coloured such 'laughing at people' sketches, not this odd form of comedy malice. recently i think alan partridge has something to answer for - again, he's not all the way this "new" kind of comedy, but coogan's format for that show is based around laughing at this total prat. i've never found it very funny. more recently again, the office: tedious, everyday situations, laughing at the people (*cough*ricky gervais*cough*), but at least there was some characterisation that meant you could empathise with these people, too.
i believe the fast show, and probably mr. bean (to an extent) also have some responsibility for promoting this kind of comedy. also, picking names out the air: Trigger Happy TV, Bo Selecta! and probably others

sufficed to say, these new shows have seemingly kicked out wit, sharp writing, characterisaion beyond the one-dimensional, plots and empathy to fill shows with nothing more than laughing at stupid people in whatever way they may be "stupid" and often making pathetic catchphrases the cornerstone of the show ("yeah, i know")

now, i'm not without a sense of humour and i generally find a wide range of things funny, but when it turns from laughing generally to laughing at somebody, the comedy is gone for me. there are different degrees of that, of course, and it doesn't apply to everything.

i mean, some of my favourite tv comedies:
Frasier: sharp, verbal humour, witty, great multidimensional characterisation
Blackadder: witty again, well written, empathy for a character you'd love to hate, feasable situations but a hint of the ridiculous
Red Dwarf: ridiculous, characterisation good and empathy, just funny (can't put my finger on it)
Father Ted: verbal, visual, witty, etc...
Morcambe & Wize: wit, wit, wit, sharp writing, verbal comedy with some great visual gags. fast paced.
3rd Rock From The Sun: not british, but i love it! heh. been watching through my new dvd boxed set of it recently...
Bottom: visual humour, outlandish violence, characterisation, purile bodily humour (lmao!)
The Young Ones: kinda like bottom but with added randomness
Spaced: sharp, quirky, intelligent, like a poor-man's Frasier in london
Black Books: similar to Spaced but less chic and more insane.
and probably a whole bunch of other comedy shows i like (including many, many american ones) that i can't be bothered to list...


but there is hope. peep show and the now slightly dated max and paddy's road to nowhere, both on channel 4, showed that modern comedy does not have to go down this route, nor are people's attention spans so short all comedy has to revolve around a sketch show format. a new sci-fi comedy akin to red dwarf is coming on bbc2 shortly, so i read; i forget the name but i hear it shows real promise and is sharp as hell.


so what say ye? am i wrong and simply prudish with my comedy? should i just lighten up and start laughing at people cos, lets face it, silly people are funny? or am i - in some sense, god forbid - right? :confused: is this not, in fact, a new phenomenon in comedy (as i suspect) but we're just seeing a rise in popularity of this format, or a concentration of this style into it dominating a show rather than just being part of what makes other shows, with a wider-variety (in a comedic sense) format, funny?

i mean, i'll admit to not having watched much more than an episode or so of the shows i dislike so much (precisely cos i can't stand to watch them)

oh and, while we're at it, what kind of comedy do you prefer?

The word is "Schadenfreude".

And I like all sorts of comedy, with Schadenfreude and without it. But normally, the more absurd, the better.

The word is "Schadenfreude".

thats the one, thanks :fluffle:

i was just going to start a thread asking what the hell the word was (it was bugging me) but i figured i'd share my thoughts as to why i was thinking of that word in the first place, while i was at it...

schadenfreude \SHAHD-n-froy-duh\, noun:
A malicious satisfaction in the misfortunes of others.

-snip-
I agree that comedy has gone downhill recently. Little Britain is awful, based on poor characters with one line that is repeated ad nauseam. The guy in the wheelchair is even worse - the same joke in god knows how many different situations, when it's not even particularly funny in the first place.

Fortunately, you're right, there are some good comedies around - Peep Show and Max and Paddy as you mentioned, but some of the stuff on BBC 3 is good - The Mighty Boosh for example, well written, good characters (maybe not deep characters, but certainly funny), and more than a touch of the surreal about it.

If you want good comedy, listen to BBC radio. Find the listen again feature online and listen to the comedies on BBC 7. Most of them are superb - Old Harry's Game, The Boosh (where The Mighty Boosh came from), The Cheese Shop Presents..., etc. etc. Very funny.

But yes, you are right, comedy has gone downhill. A lot.

I agree that comedy has gone downhill recently. Little Britain is awful, based on poor characters with one line that is repeated ad nauseam. The guy in the wheelchair is even worse - the same joke in god knows how many different situations, when it's not even particularly funny in the first place.

Fortunately, you're right, there are some good comedies around - Peep Show and Max and Paddy as you mentioned, but some of the stuff on BBC 3 is good - The Mighty Boosh for example, well written, good characters (maybe not deep characters, but certainly funny), and more than a touch of the surreal about it.

If you want good comedy, listen to BBC radio. Find the listen again feature online and listen to the comedies on BBC 7. Most of them are superb - Old Harry's Game, The Boosh (where The Mighty Boosh came from), The Cheese Shop Presents..., etc. etc. Very funny.

But yes, you are right, comedy has gone downhill. A lot.
hmm something you said reminded me of Coupling. that was recent and quite funny - similar vein to peep show i think. never watched much but thats just cos i kept missing it. bah.

and yeah radio comedy does tend to be good. been listening to Dead Ringers and The Now Show on BBC R4 for years (along with The News Quiz and I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue), but there are so many (old) great shows on BBC7. new shows i don't know about but i think i'll have to get listening :)

Yes definately for the Mighty Boosh, I love a lot of the classic earlier comedies, with little britain and that awful catherine tate, I almost think they are doing it to sell novelty ringtones,

We have Hyperdrive starting on Wednesday, let us see if the BBC can rescue something.

BBC7 R0><Or5

hmm something you said reminded me of Coupling. that was recent and quite funny - similar vein to peep show i think. never watched much but thats just cos i kept missing it. bah.
Coupling was only good for the first 2 series, then Jeff left. That guy was a legend. "Is it true, can mild mannered Jeff really be...Spankman?!" :p

Yes definately for the Mighty Boosh, I love a lot of the classic earlier comedies, with little britain and that awful catherine tate, I almost think they are doing it to sell novelty ringtones,

We have Hyperdrive starting on Wednesday, let us see if the BBC can rescue something.

BBC7 R0><Or5
I'm seeing the Mighty Boosh live in February! :D It's gonna be good! Woo!
Not heard about Hyperdrive, is that the sci-fi comedy PM was talking about?

Thats the one, seems quite a good premise (in that we are taking the piss out of ourselves (again)), prob is it is on the same time as Lost and Celeb BB so I am going to have to fight for rights to the Video.

BBC7 R0><Or5

yay! BBC7 :D

Admitedly I haven't been able to listen to it for a while, but its good to get the old classic comedies. As well as some newer stuff like Doctor Who.

I almost think they are doing it to sell novelty ringtones,
sad isn't it?
i think little britain is pretty well summed up in this excerpt from the Now Show's christmas special: http://www.hlj.me.uk/Now%20Show%20Xmas%20Special%202005%20snippet.wma :D



and its hyperdrive is it? ok, i hear good things. lets hope the BBC can get back to making decent comedy once more.

edit:
I'm seeing the Mighty Boosh live in February! :D It's gonna be good! Woo!
Not heard about Hyperdrive, is that the sci-fi comedy PM was talking about?
yeah i think so

and you reminded me i saw steve punt and hugh dennis (now show dudes) live last year. seeing radio shows being recorded is awesome!! :)
(and saw a dead ringers too *cough*)

Thats the one, seems quite a good premise (in that we are taking the piss out of ourselves (again)), prob is it is on the same time as Lost and Celeb BB so I am going to have to fight for rights to the Video.
oh don't get me started on big brother :mad: :p

Couldn't agree more. It used to be the case that British comedy was, generally speaking, full of genuine, sharp wit. Little Britain et al can be amusing at times, but only at times - and I wouldn't say the brand of humour depicted in it is exactly intelligent. How anyone can mention shows of that nature alongside the likes of Blackadder, Monty Python etc is beyond me.

For the record, besides those two I mentioned, PM and I have very similar tastes in comedy. I pretty much agree with his list especially re: Black Books, Frasier, Bottom and Father Ted, and I'd also add The New Statesman, Only Fools and Horses, Futurama and The Simpsons and Danger Mouse. The latter three may be cartoons, and DM especially is geared towards kids, but when you see them as an adult, there are so many wonderfully subtle and clever in-jokes.

I utterly despise things like Will and Grace, Friends and more recent British sitcoms such as My Hero and My Family. While I don't hate it, I do fail to see the humour in Seinfield, which seems to be revered as the wittiest American comedy on the box.

Hmm, is it just me or has the word "Schadenfreude" become more popular?

I dunno, first I saw Jon Stewart using it last month, then a comedian used it in Last Laugh '05, and now I can't go anywhere without hearing it...

Or has this always been going on and I didn't notice?

Little Britain is crap - it's most popular in the nation's playgrounds which should tell us all something. When I was eleven I thought Harry Enfield's sketch shows were quite funny. Now of course, I realise that they are not.

I think Peep Show has been the best show this year - with Nathan Barley a close second (lots of people hated this one as it wasn't particulary accessible but there's always some good stuff when Chris Morris is writing)

Yes I do believe the end of British Comedy is here. What we need is the return of Keeping up Appearances, only then can British Comedy be noteworthy once more not only for being funny, but for being enjoyable. A true family show for all ages

Couldn't agree more. It used to be the case that British comedy was, generally speaking, full of genuine, sharp wit. Little Britain et al can be amusing at times, but only at times - and I wouldn't say the brand of humour depicted in it is exactly intelligent. How anyone can mention shows of that nature alongside the likes of Blackadder, Monty Python etc is beyond me.


quite.

For the record, besides those two I mentioned, PM and I have very similar tastes in comedy. I pretty much agree with his list especially re: Black Books, Frasier, Bottom and Father Ted, and I'd also add The New Statesman, Only Fools and Horses, Futurama and The Simpsons and Danger Mouse. The latter three may be cartoons, and DM especially is geared towards kids, but when you see them as an adult, there are so many wonderfully subtle and clever in-jokes.
hooray! but i think ony two of those are actually british (don't know about the new statesman)
only fools and horses does rock ass
dangermouse is hilarious and always has been :D
and then you can have other classics like one foot in the grave and porridge (along with another i can't remember the name of right now)

I utterly despise things like Will and Grace, Friends and more recent British sitcoms such as My Hero and My Family. While I don't hate it, I do fail to see the humour in Seinfield, which seems to be revered as the wittiest American comedy on the box.
mm will and grace is awful, as is my hero (really awful)
but i actually quite like friends. mostly for the characterisation, but once you get to know them it becomes quite sharp. otherwise it just appears like drivel...



of course if you want extra comedy you can always go for quiz shows like Have I Got News For You, (old) They Think Its All Over, and Whose Line Is It Anyway (actually prefer the drew carey american version, but it started out british)

so this thread is based off the german word right?

edit:

yeah i think so

and you reminded me i saw steve punt and hugh dennis (now show dudes) live last year. seeing radio shows being recorded is awesome!! :)
(and saw a dead ringers too *cough*)
Cool...I went to a recording of It's Been A Bad Week (with Punt and Dennis...and Mitch Benn, Sue Perkins, and...some other guy). Also went to a recording of the News Quiz last February. :)
The Mighty Boosh show isn't a recording, it's their live show. It's on Valentine's Day, and I'm taking my girlfriend. May not be the most romantic way to spend it, but we'll both enjoy it.

Hmm, is it just me or has the word "Schadenfreude" become more popular?

I dunno, first I saw Jon Stewart using it last month, then a comedian used it in Last Laugh '05, and now I can't go anywhere without hearing it...

Or has this always been going on and I didn't notice?
well its an actual german word and i've been hearing it for years (mum is german), but it has popped up usage more in critique and popular culture, yes... possibly because of the rise of pap like little britain.

I think one of the biggest strengths of British comedy was the fact it used to be series of only 6 episodes and usually only 2 series at that. This gave the writers plenty of time to really do great comedy. The characters were better fleshed out and the situations better set up.
As well, us the viewers were left wanting more. They ended on a high.
There's always an inevitable decline that follows the 2nd or 3rd series of any show. There's only so many situations the same, basically 2-Dimensional, character can get into.
Shows like Little Britain rely on the running gag, which starts off funny because it's new but then becomes amusing because you know what's going to happen. I've only seen a couple and found them funny but could see that the joke would wear thin very soon.

I think during the 90's the US had it way over the Brits when it came to sitcom. You had The Simpsons, Spin City, Just Shoot Me, Seinfield, Friends...
But as I said above, the inevitable happened. They (for me personally) were all excellent, well-scripted intelligent comedies but the cracks started showing in them after the first 2 or 3 series.

That's why to me, Fawlty Towers will always be the ultimate sitcom. It ended on an absolute high.

Ooooh...on the subject of classic comedy - Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister. They're brilliant! There was an afternoon of Yes, Minister on UK Gold just over a week ago, and I watched it all. It was amazing. I laughed so much, I almost pissed myself.

The word is "Schadenfreude".

And I like all sorts of comedy, with Schadenfreude and without it. But normally, the more absurd, the better.

I was going to say "Fahrfegneugen". :p

(don't know about the new statesman)Aye, it's British. It doesn't portray the Tories especially well :p Though I suspect anyone who likes political humour could enjoy it regardless of their affiliation. It's about a ruthless bastard of a Tory MP, played eloquently by the inimitable Rik Mayall. Kind of a less gritty, somewhat more slapstick version of House of Cards (which was a superlative political drama, but did have a large degree of dark humour therein).

of course if you want extra comedy you can always go for quiz shows like Have I Got News For You, (old) They Think Its All Over, and Whose Line Is It Anyway (actually prefer the drew carey american version, but it started out british)How could I forget those?! HIGNFY and WLIIA were hilarious. I really miss Angus Deayton on HIGNFY, though Merton and Hislop are still excellent, and there have been quite a few very good guest presenters. TTIAO was great too, although I don't think it was quite as good as the other two.

Aye, it's British. It doesn't portray the Tories especially well :p Though I suspect anyone who likes political humour could enjoy it regardless of their affiliation. It's about a ruthless bastard of a Tory MP, played eloquently by the inimitable Rik Mayall. Kind of a less gritty, somewhat more slapstick version of House of Cards (which was a superlative political drama, but did have a large degree of dark humour therein).
Alan B'Stard, no? There's an NSer with that name. A Tory, perhaps unsurprisingly.

For those of you that think back to the glory days of British comedy, there never was. There was some really good stuff but also truely aweful things as well. The difference is that we remember the good and forget the bad. The Office will be remembered for years as will my Family and the Vicar of Dibley.

I'm not sure I like little Britain...but I can't say that I hate it either. Ho hum.

Alan B'Stard, no? There's an NSer with that name. A Tory, perhaps unsurprisingly.That's the one :) I toyed with the idea of changing my surname to B'Stard for a laugh. It'd get you noticed, if nothing else. And by the way, you're very right about the Yes, Minister series - really funny stuff.

For those of you that think back to the glory days of British comedy, there never was. There was some really good stuff but also truely aweful things as well. The difference is that we remember the good and forget the bad. The Office will be remembered for years as will my Family and the Vicar of Dibley.

I'm not sure I like little Britain...but I can't say that I hate it either. Ho hum.
But Monty Python, The Frost Report, That Was The Week That Was, Fawlty Towers, Blackadder, etc. are all remembered as truly great comedies. My Family, the Vicar of Dibley, etc. may be remembered, but they will be remembered as the best of a bad lot, because that's all they are.

Cool...I went to a recording of It's Been A Bad Week (with Punt and Dennis...and Mitch Benn, Sue Perkins, and...some other guy). Also went to a recording of the News Quiz last February. :)
The Mighty Boosh show isn't a recording, it's their live show. It's on Valentine's Day, and I'm taking my girlfriend. May not be the most romantic way to spend it, but we'll both enjoy it.
:eek: the news quiz! i'd give my right arm to see that! :p

ooh they were giving out tickets for Never Mind The Buzzcocks a few weeks back... think the opportunity is gone http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/traurig/sad-smiley-040.gif

I like things from the sides of comedy you love and hate...

I love The Office (and Extras and his stand up - if you don't like the whole thing about laughing at him, you could still like his stand up) and Alan Partridge. I think the scripts, the acting, the characters... I think it's all fantastic.

I also like the classic stuff such as Fawlty Towers and Monty Python. I think they're amazing. I love Blackadder too. Ooo, and Only Fools and Horses. And Porride (what I've watched) And One Foot in the Grave. However much I love all of them (FT and MP especially) the stuff you see as just laughing at prats, I find equally as funny as them.

I love the quiz shows - QI, HIGNFY (even moreso with Angus), Buzzcocks. I like Room 101 (with Paul Merton) too.

I watch Friends a lot (totally crap in any realism sense, but the lines and timing can be spot on) and My Family (the older stuff is better) occasionally.

I also love Bill Bailey, Lee Evans, Billy Connoley (and a fair few other standups, but theyre some of my faves).

And plenty more, including some stuff that's been mentioned.

I like things from the sides of comedy you love and hate...

I love The Office (and Extras and his stand up - if you don't like the whole thing about laughing at him, you could still like his stand up) and Alan Partridge. I think the scripts, the acting, the characters... I think it's all fantastic.

I also like the classic stuff such as Fawlty Towers and Monty Python. I think they're amazing. I love Blackadder too. Ooo, and Only Fools and Horses. And Porride (what I've watched) And One Foot in the Grave. However much I love all of them (FT and MP especially) the stuff you see as just laughing at prats, I find equally as funny as them.

I love the quiz shows - QI, HIGNFY (even moreso with Angus), Buzzcocks. I like Room 101 (with Paul Merton) too.

I watch Friends a lot (totally crap in any realism sense, but the lines and timing can be spot on) and My Family (the older stuff is better) occasionally.

I also love Bill Bailey, Lee Evans, Billy Connoley (and a fair few other standups, but theyre some of my faves).

And plenty more, including some stuff that's been mentioned.
hmm haven't seen much extras... don't get the idea.
and you know i don't like alan partridge :(

but how could i forget fawlty towers (a little more 'schadenfreude' than i'm used to but funny as hell - was the thing i couldn't remember the name of in an earlier post) and also how could i forget QI!? thats awesome! :p

what is My Family though?
btw i know you're probably working this evening... so i said i would too if you're not gonna be around much. how was your afternoon? (love you :-) )

There is a perfectly serviceable english word, epicaricacy, that means exactly the same thing as schadenfreude. So you see there is no need to resort to inferior german.

I liked Alan Partridge. I can see where it fails to get mass appeal though. Can't stand little britian.

hmm haven't seen much extras... don't get the idea.
and you know i don't like alan partridge :(
If you don't like The Office, you won't like Extras. Well, I don't know. It's even more dry and the situations are even more unbearable to watch, but, for me, that makes it even better. For you, I'm guessing that would make it worse, heh.

And I know you don't but I do! :p I hate Max and Paddy so we'll even out *nods* *fluffles*

I don't really see it as laughing at a prat. I'd say that the whole focus is around stretching the limits of "I laugh, 'cause if I didn't laugh I'd cry". It creates these excrutiating situations which either make you think "wtf?" or get you caught in the situation so you have to laugh instead of cry. It creates exaggerated characters, but who are still very very real (The Office actually has got some good drama with a heartbreaking (but happily ending) relationship between two of the "normal" people). Too real. You'll either think it's totally exaggerated or see how true it actually is to life, only exaggerated to bring certain things out into view, and have to laugh because otherwise it's impossible to watch.

Okay, I'm gonna give up trying to explain it now. I don't really think comedy is the kind of thing you can convince people about. You either find it funny or you don't.

but how could i forget fawlty towers (a little more 'schadenfreude' than i'm used to but funny as hell - was the thing i couldn't remember the name of in an earlier post) and also how could i forget QI!? thats awesome! :p
what is My Family though?
I don't know how you could forget them! *shakes head* :P

My Family is a sitcom type thing. Don't really know what you'd think of it.
and yes, I have work to do and msn isn't working for me :-/ hopefully it will sort out for late evening if you're gonna be around then (?). Afternoon was okay - needed your text to boost me up for Chemistry though, heh :P Feeling kinda ill and tired and crappy... but I'll be fine. How about you? *hugs* love you :-)(seen various posts by you that made me smile, laugh, long for you...)

I think on the whole British Comedy is just as good as ever. Of course you have crappy shows - all periods have them, but they are never remebered. Recently we've had many top quality shows - The Royle Family, The Office, Extras, Big Train, Peep Show, Spaced, Mighty Boosh, The Armando Ianucci Show...as many as ever.

In fact, I've seen far more unfunny attempts at comedy in the form of 70s and 80s British sitcom reruns than modern unfunny comedy...though some stuff nowadays is incredibly over rated, eg: Goodness Gracious Me, Smack The Pony, The Fast Show, The Vicar of Dibley.

How could I forget The Royle Family?!

Personally I do love The Fast Show- don't know how I forgot that either.

I used to think it was okay, and it is funny at times, but it's the same one joke characters as people are now slamming Little Britain for having.

I just think it's criminal that moderately funny stuff like that gets showered with praise whilst gems like This Morning With Richard Not Judy, Fist of Fun, Big Train and Brass Eye get almost no attention in comparison.

The Armando Ianucci Show

w00t, somebody else who likes that.

"We never had Feng Shui in those days, so we put all our cupboards in the wrong place, and as a result all our businesses went bust. And that was the start of the great depression."

btw, has anyone seen any of his new show The Thick of It? Is it any good. I only managed to watch the first five minutes of the first episode :(

I agree completely. Little Britain infuriates me because its just NOT FUNNY. Unfortunately I know a lot of people who like it *sigh*

Long live Blackadder, Monty Python, Red Dwarf, and all the other greats.

w00t, somebody else who likes that.

"We never had Feng Shui in those days, so we put all our cupboards in the wrong place, and as a result all our businesses went bust. And that was the start of the great depression."


the Armando Ianucci show rocks!
I loved some of the more surreal moments, like "walking with nazis" and if I remembere correctly, the odd way to get what you want, by precisely measuring how ridiculous the request is (a small payrise will get laughed at, but a 612% rise is instantly accepted). Or how to avoid crashing your car, with much the same logic (If you drive at 114 miles an hour you CAN'T CRASH.)

I love the quiz shows - QI, HIGNFY (even moreso with Angus), Buzzcocks. I like Room 101 (with Paul Merton) too.

I watch Friends a lot (totally crap in any realism sense, but the lines and timing can be spot on) and My Family (the older stuff is better) occasionally.

I also love Bill Bailey, Lee Evans, Billy Connoley (and a fair few other standups, but theyre some of my faves).

QI's brilliant. Stephen Fry is possibly the funniest man alive.
Never liked Friends. The first few series were ok (up to and including #5), but after that it was poor. You're right with My Family, it's great, and it was better when it started.

But Lee Evans? :confused: I just don't see how he's funny...

I used to think it was okay, and it is funny at times, but it's the same one joke characters as people are now slamming Little Britain for having.
Well, I never saw it when it first came out and I only see it occasionally so I've never got bored of the "one joke characters". Perhaps that why I differ. Though I do think some are good enough to stand repeating and remain funny.

QI's brilliant. Stephen Fry is possibly the funniest man alive.
*nods*
Never liked Friends. The first few series were ok (up to and including #5), but after that it was poor.
Meh, I watch it for mind-numbing entertainment when I get back from school or can't be bothered to think that hard. If you can get in the right frame of mind, it is damn funny at times.

You're right with My Family, it's great, and it was better when it started.
I think it's just because the new characters are nowhere near as good as the original. That's part of it anyway. That blonde girl annoys me.

But Lee Evans? :confused: I just don't see how he's funny...
What have you seen by him? I've only seen a few gigs by him on dvd but I thought they were fantastic. Can't really pinpoint why.

What have you seen by him? I've only seen a few gigs by him on dvd but I thought they were fantastic. Can't really pinpoint why.
I've sat through his Live at Wembley dvd, and I laughed about twice, I think.

...Recently we've had many top quality shows - The Royle Family...I know we're talking about a highly subjective issue here, but I cannot fathom, despite my best efforts, how anyone could find that program remotely entertaining, never mind side-splittingly amusing. If I want to watch a family sitting about watching the TV making asinine remarks, I'll drive up to my aunt's over-populated house.

I didn't like The Office either - similar 'reality' style format - but at least there was the odd witty one-liner. I've never seen that in The Royale Family, despite the fact I've suffered through a number of episodes thereof in failed attempts to spot comedy.

I like pretty much all type of comedy. Doesn't mean I like all work that claims to be comedy. My favourite comedy tends to have a certain theme to it, like 'Splitting Image' and 'Yes, Minister' and Dead Ringers. I also tend to quite like Bremner, Bird and Fortune. Always liked Eddie Izzard. With regards to Gervais I never actually laughed when I watched the Office, it just made me cringe and resolve never to ever get a proper job. However, I do love his stand-up, such as Animals.

Also, I'm reading a book called 'Things Can Only Get Better - Eighteen Miserable Years in the Life of a Labour Supporter' by John O'Farrell. Basically an autobiography with, I suspect, only a few bits made up or exagerated.
1989 came to a close and the whole world had changed for ever. The Cold War was declared officially over, the Berlin Wall was pulled down and Christmas Day Ceausescu was dragged out into a Romanian courtyard and shot by a firing squad. But, in England, Fergie had another baby, Torvill and Dean did a pageant on ice and Ken Barlow still had not got back with Deirdre. A few weeks later there was another tremendous event which bought new hope to the world. Nelson Mandela was released from prison. Perhaps this would be the event that would capture the imagination of the British people and stir the profound belief in freedom and political justice that lire deep down within the British soul? The emotional occasion was shown live on television and hundreds of people spontaneously rang the BBC. But not to share in the joy of this historic moment. Not to ask if the footage could be repeated for whose who had missed it. But to complain that coverage of his release had interupted Antiques Roadshow.

A brief note to activists: Sunday's Labour Party Membership drive has been canceled, due to the realisation that there really is no point in carrying on.

Oooh, and I also like... damnit, the only name I cna thing of know is Ken Barlow. ARGH... got it... Bill Murray. I just love the dryness of his humour in 'Ghostbusters' and 'The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou'. Yet to see him live though. :(

I watched The Office once or twice... it was still fairly new when I left for the States.

Since I have arrived in the States, of course... I have discovered that the US has 'remade' The Office. They seem to have done this by making everyone American, totally missing the point on half the characters, and removing anything funny.

Just like they did on Coupling.

Just like they did on Red Dwarf. (Well... not quite EVERYONE English was removed... but everyone that was funny....)

I consider myself fairly hard to please with 'comedy', though... Red Dwarf, Blackadder and Coupling are the real winners. Things like: Porridge, Only When I Laugh, Open All Hours, the original Hitchhikers Guide... were good, but not 'great'.

Eddie Izzard for stand-up. Oh - or Jack Dee... but you don't hear much about him, any more...

I would agree actually, the sole contemporary British comedy of note to emerge recently is indeed "The mighty Boosh", concurrent to the now forgotten "Monkey Dust", however the remainder of supposedly "mod" comedies are reliant upon character centred repition for comedy.

ooh i don't like monkey dust either. i count it in the "modern crap" section of comedy.

bah

ooh i don't like monkey dust either. i count it in the "modern crap" section of comedy.

bah

I found the paedo-finder general sketches somewhat pertinent, whilst being hysterical, however, point taken, the majority of it is bilge.

Now as for "Yes Minister", intellectual comic brilliance.

I wouldn't worry to much about British comedy. It's probably, like the fashion industry, cyclic - the 'New Black' will eventaully be Black again. Kinda like Marx's capitialist cycles. We're just in a bit of a bust period, the boom will eventually restart, and probably coincide with a bust in the economy. Indeed there's nothing like a bit of depression to spark the comedic imagionation. I'll stop waffling now.

I spent three days over christmas listening to various fully-grown members of my family repeat that godawfully insipid "Do I look bovvered?" line.

So I hibernated in my bedroom and alternated between listening to Megadeth and watching Monty Python DVDs. needless to say, I won in the end.

Come on Little Britian is aimed at kids and critics who are doomed for all eternity to write for the 'Sun'. Now Black Books And Spaced rock and those critics just sat there dumbfounded at the concept of a series that has more than one original idea per season.

I consider myself fairly hard to please with 'comedy', though... Red Dwarf, Blackadder and Coupling are the real winners. Things like: Porridge, Only When I Laugh, Open All Hours, the original Hitchhikers Guide... were good, but not 'great'.
Are you talking about the Hitchhikers Guide TV show, or the radio series?
It'd better be the TV show or...grrrr...

Seriously... someone needs to acknowledged Keeping up Appearances pretty soon...

Character comedy is great. But in small doses. Making multiple seasons of it, is just ridiculous.

Seriously... someone needs to acknowledged Keeping up Appearances pretty soon...

I would actually use it as an example of how British comedy has gotten a lot better over the last few years. It's the exact type of show which used be common around 10 years ago - slightly amusing, but hardly laugh out loud funny.

I would actually use it as an example of how British comedy has gotten a lot better over the last few years. It's the exact type of show which used be common around 10 years ago - slightly amusing, but hardly laugh out loud funny.
Like the gradual demise of AbFab

Like the gradual demise of AbFab
and the unexplained rise of French & Saunders...


that said, early-to-mid 90's did have Men Behaving Badly and that was great

I watched The Office once or twice... it was still fairly new when I left for the States.

Since I have arrived in the States, of course... I have discovered that the US has 'remade' The Office. They seem to have done this by making everyone American, totally missing the point on half the characters, and removing anything funny.

Just like they did on Coupling.

Just like they did on Red Dwarf. (Well... not quite EVERYONE English was removed... but everyone that was funny....)

I consider myself fairly hard to please with 'comedy', though... Red Dwarf, Blackadder and Coupling are the real winners. Things like: Porridge, Only When I Laugh, Open All Hours, the original Hitchhikers Guide... were good, but not 'great'.

Eddie Izzard for stand-up. Oh - or Jack Dee... but you don't hear much about him, any more...
I don't know. I saw the entire first season of the British The Office, which I thought was very funny and had a very well earned arc that can't really be accomplished on American television shows because of the differences in the way we program. But the American version is an American version, so they're not just going to bring the British cast over and have them redo the scripts, of course it's going to be an American cast, so I don't understand that complaint.

Further, I think that they've added a lot more depth to the characters that surround the office in a way that the British one didn't or couldn't do. They've managed the characters that did carry over (the suck up, the manager, the secretary, and the 'hero') rather well. If anything, they've managed to make some of the managers foibles a little too high in stake to the point where some of those employees have a pretty good lawsuit, which I would count as a fault, because it's not so much 'uncomfortable' as 'dude, you guys need to do something about this.' But as the season goes and the characters start to develop I think they are creating a world that works within itself, and they earn a lot of thier laughs (a halmark of the british original, that would earn laughs over the span of episodes) rather than rely on the quicker laugh.

I like that kind of writting because it respects the audience and there has been a rise in it here, unfortunately not as well recieved as "Look at the dumbasses who'll do anything as long as they get to be on tv" shows that don't respect the audience or the participants (fortunately I haven't had to work on a cruelity based reality show...yet....)

But I think they've handled the point and interpretation of the show rather well. The thing that made the British one one of the best things I've seen on television isn't really possible on the American one, so I'm good with it.

and the unexplained rise of French & Saunders...


that said, early-to-mid 90's did have Men Behaving Badly and that was great
Two things:

1) That show just isn't funny. I really tried to like it. But it's lackluster, at best
2) When did Dawn French get fat?

Hmm, is it just me or has the word "Schadenfreude" become more popular?

I dunno, first I saw Jon Stewart using it last month, then a comedian used it in Last Laugh '05, and now I can't go anywhere without hearing it...

Or has this always been going on and I didn't notice?well its an actual german word and i've been hearing it for years (mum is german), but it has popped up usage more in critique and popular culture, yes... possibly because of the rise of pap like little britain.
I first heard the word years ago on an episode of the Simpsons, with Lisa dressing down Homer for finding joy in the demise of Flanders. For a while after that I didn't hear it much, but then it started to pick up. Now I wouldn't neccisarily credit Lisa with lighting the match that got that term going, that's just how it felt to me.

Though I would say that the reason that word gets so much traction is because that is what's driving a lot of our entertainment these days. I would say it goes all the way back to one of the granddaddies of reality TV, COPS. Or, if you wanted to go back further, the man who paved the way for Springer, Morton Downey Jr. 'Sucker punch' reality shows where someone is tricked lack the good natured jab of the super grandaddy of reality, Candid Camera. But I don't really need to tell you all of this, it's the premise of your thread. You called it. I got a little hypnotized there...

Further, I think that they've added a lot more depth to the characters that surround the office in a way that the British one didn't or couldn't do. They've managed the characters that did carry over (the suck up, the manager, the secretary, and the 'hero')

Thats one of the problems of American remakes - there always seems to be predefined roles that aren't realistic. There shouldn't be a 'hero' character - Tim isn't a hero in The Office, he's just a pretty normal sort of person. Just like Lister isn't a hero in Red Dwarf, he's a slob. However, in the American remakes they make one character someone to really root for who is good in every way. I'm not sure about The Office remake, which I am assured by everyone I speak to is completely awful when compared to the British version, but it was certainly true of the Red Dwarf remake - and since you talk about a 'hero' character in it, I presume it to be the same.

Woot first post!

I love old British sitcoms, especially Blackadder, Monty Python, Keeping up Appearances and the like.

I also love some newer things, like Have I Got News For You, Never Mind the Buzzcocks, Room 101...

But I agree... Little Britain and Catherine Tate are so boring and repedative.... I cannot fathom how anyone could find the same joke funny after already seeing it 50 times before. And the new series is resorting to crude measures just to get a few laughs (the vomiting women thing).

In my opinion, the only good sitcoms/cartoon comedies to come out of the US in recent years are The Simpsons, Futurama (why cancel it?) and Fraiser.

Thats one of the problems of American remakes - there always seems to be predefined roles that aren't realistic. There shouldn't be a 'hero' character - Tim isn't a hero in The Office, he's just a pretty normal sort of person. Just like Lister isn't a hero in Red Dwarf, he's a slob. However, in the American remakes they make one character someone to really root for who is good in every way. I'm not sure about The Office remake, which I am assured by everyone I speak to is completely awful when compared to the British version, but it was certainly true of the Red Dwarf remake - and since you talk about a 'hero' character in it, I presume it to be the same.
'Hero' was my word, and it could have easily been 'protagonist' had I not blanked. You've read too much into it. He's not a 'hero' in the sense that you are infering, further we haven't had characters like that since Father Knows Best and Leave it to Beaver.

I was unaware until this thread that there was an American Red Dwarf.

The American The Office earns its laughs and develops its characters and I think honors its roots. There are going to be people who honestly don't believe it measures up, and all things are taste, but there's always the "I liked them before they where popular" or "Their first albums better" type crowd whose responses are almost cue cards and have no actul, real honest assesment of the material. The trick is to watch it yourself and fairly.

I don't like a lot of reduxes and I was sure they where going to make big mistakes on this, mostly because I held the original in such high regard. I was wrong. It is well done.

'Hero' was my word, and it could have easily been 'protagonist' had I not blanked. You've read too much into it. He's not a 'hero' in the sense that you are infering, further we haven't had characters like that since Father Knows Best and Leave it to Beaver.

I was unaware until this thread that there was an American Red Dwarf.

The American The Office earns its laughs and develops its characters and I think honors its roots. There are going to be people who honestly don't believe it measures up, and all things are taste, but there's always the "I liked them before they where popular" or "Their first albums better" type crowd whose responses are almost cue cards and have no actul, real honest assesment of the material. The trick is to watch it yourself and fairly.

I don't like a lot of reduxes and I was sure they where going to make big mistakes on this, mostly because I held the original in such high regard. I was wrong. It is well done.


They made a pilot of it, but it flopped I believe. Good thing too - it was an embarressment. Lister is by no means supposed to be anything more than a good hearted slob.

Maybe that, combined with all the British-movie remakes which were so awful, has given me a prejudice against anything remade in America. I should probably give it a chance...it's probably quite a good comedy - it's just the original office is so good it's hard to match up to it. My brother actually said it's not so bad, just not as good as the original. It was only my friends and other random people who discredited it totally - and I often disagree with them when it comes to comedy.

However, you speak of a generally good protagonist, whereas Brent was the real main character in the original. Did they switch the roles about a bit so it's more seen through the eyes of the Tim-like character?

They made a pilot of it, but it flopped I believe. Good thing too - it was an embarressment. Lister is by no means supposed to be anything more than a good hearted slob.

Maybe that, combined with all the British-movie remakes which were so awful, has given me a prejudice against anything remade in America. I should probably give it a chance...it's probably quite a good comedy - it's just the original office is so good it's hard to match up to it. My brother actually said it's not so bad, just not as good as the original. It was only my friends and other random people who discredited it totally - and I often disagree with them when it comes to comedy.

However, you speak of a generally good protagonist, whereas Brent was the real main character in the original. Did they switch the roles about a bit so it's more seen through the eyes of the Tim-like character?
The arc and conflict of the British show was Tim. Brendt was the foil, the drive of the humor and the source of the conflict (along with the fiance of the receptionist) but it was Tim's arc that we followed, it was Tim that we rooted for to survive Brendt and to win over the girl, and it was the heartbreak that we felt when Tim, when given the chance to move up or move out, began to echo Brendt at the end of the first season. That was the arch, that makes Tim the protagonist. The show is obviously created around Gervais' character, but he story, the arc, was ultimetly in Tim. He was the 'in' that the audience had, the sympathetic character-which should not be mistaken for the flawless character. The American show uses the same dynamic. The dominant performance on the show is the boss, but the protagonist is Jim (Tim). Don't confuse performative focus and narrative focus. And this is not to say that Brendt didn't have an arc in the British one or that the boss doesn't have one in the american one.

There is a perfectly serviceable english word, epicaricacy, that means exactly the same thing as schadenfreude. So you see there is no need to resort to inferior german.

Yeah, we can resort to the inferior greek instead.

* wanders off mumbling something about the purity of a cribhouse whore *

The arc and conflict of the British show was Tim. Brendt was the foil, the drive of the humor and the source of the conflict (along with the fiance of the receptionist) but it was Tim's arc that we followed, it was Tim that we rooted for to survive Brendt and to win over the girl, and it was the heartbreak that we felt when Tim, when given the chance to move up or move out, began to echo Brendt at the end of the first season. That was the arch, that makes Tim the protagonist. The show is obviously created around Gervais' character, but he story, the arc, was ultimetly in Tim. He was the 'in' that the audience had, the sympathetic character-which should not be mistaken for the flawless character. The American show uses the same dynamic. The dominant performance on the show is the boss, but the protagonist is Jim (Tim). Don't confuse performative focus and narrative focus. And this is not to say that Brendt didn't have an arc in the British one or that the boss doesn't have one in the american one.

I wouldn't come to the same conclusion. Tim is the element of normality in the show, and certainly has his own plot which keeps viewers interested, but I wouldn't say he's the protagonist as such.

This is what I mean about the difference between British and American comedy - American comedies always seem to have a 'good' character to emphasise with and root for - British comedies don't have that so much. Each character is treated seperately and the main character is not necessarily the nicest one - often you find yourself rooting for someone you can objectively see is a bad person.

I'd struggle to think of a main 'good' protagonist in shows like Peep Show, The Mighty Boosh, Alan Partridge, The Royle Family etc. Each character in these shows have very obvious flaws, and the main character isn't any better than the rest of them, often worse - Alan Partridge in particular is an awful character, and there isn't a good protagonist in sight.

I wouldn't come to the same conclusion. Tim is the element of normality in the show, and certainly has his own plot which keeps viewers interested, but I wouldn't say he's the protagonist as such.

This is what I mean about the difference between British and American comedy - American comedies always seem to have a 'good' character to emphasise with and root for - British comedies don't have that so much. Each character is treated seperately and the main character is not necessarily the nicest one - often you find yourself rooting for someone you can objectively see is a bad person.

I'd struggle to think of a main 'good' protagonist in shows like Peep Show, The Mighty Boosh, Alan Partridge, The Royle Family etc. Each character in these shows have very obvious flaws, and the main character isn't any better than the rest of them, often worse - Alan Partridge in particular is an awful character, and there isn't a good protagonist in sight.
You're still confusing performative focus with protagonist and creating a false dichotomy between American and British comedy. I would argue that it is you that is hung up on the notion of the protagonist being the 'good' or flawless guy as none of that is implied in what I am talking about. By your analysis American TV wouldn't have an All in the Family or Sanford & Son or Simpsons or Curb Your Enthusiasm or any number of shows that center on a rascal. Your comparison and conclusion is not based on the material.

Further, the arc and identification in the British office is clear. The performative focus is given to Brendt, but the narrative focus is given to Tim and his struggle to survive/escape the office and 'get' with the girl. It's pretty naked. The last scene of the first series, the heartbreak as Tim-given finally his chance with the receptionist, begins to echo Brendt. That's a change of position for that character, one that has been worked from the first episode to the last. This is the narrative of the show and has little difference with the American one. You're having hang ups and confusion of terms which is fueled by your desire to create this dichotomy, one that simply does not exist.