NationStates Jolt Archive

Okay, here's the deal:

For some reason you have developed a raygun which can change people's brain waves to eliminate free will and can turn humans in people without individuality.
Perfect parts of a collective, so to speak.

The people would then have only one thing that makes them happy - and that's being part of this new society. Therefore, everyone would end up happy.

Would you destroy individuality to make everyone happy and make them live together in harmony?

What is "Free Will" and "Individuality" good for anyways? If we could be happier by just being a cog in a big system, wouldn't that be preferable to our modern world or war, fighting, competition, Darwinism and all the other ugly things that happen?

No. Without free will, people are not "people". No matter how "perfect" such a society would be, it would be abhorrent because of what spawned it (though not because of its collective ideals).

No, I would not destroy individuality (in so far as it exists already) for happiness.

Happiness is fleeting and has no value without suffering.

Being a cog in a machine would piss me off to no end...if you have no personality then there is no point being here.

Added a poll...had to think a little about the options.

No. Without free will, people are not "people". No matter how "perfect" such a society would be, it would be abhorrent because of what spawned it (though not because of its collective ideals).
Just because people were in a way forced to conform?
You can use this sort of concept both for religion and collectivism, I guess...but considering that the people wouldn't really have a sense of a loss afterwards, would this society be any worse than one people entered into voluntarily?

No, I would not destroy individuality (in so far as it exists already) for happiness.

Happiness is fleeting and has no value without suffering.
I guess one would have to define what "happiness" is. One could think of it I guess in a purely biological way...can the body become immune to endorphins?

Just because you are expiriencing something that would chemically induce feelings of happiness does not mean that you would understand it. What's more, what value would that happiness have? Might it not lead to a perverse enjoyment of pain or misery?

When it comes to questions like these, I tend to get very Taoist.

Just to be clear and open...the idea for this thread came from Greenlander originally, regarding the "secular" way people live now in Europe.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10236558&postcount=90
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10236648&postcount=94

Just so you can understand my take on the question right now.

Just to be clear and open...the idea for this thread came from Greenlander originally, regarding the "secular" way people live now in Europe.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10236558&postcount=90
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10236648&postcount=94

Just so you can understand my take on the question right now.

Huh. Well, free choice is always the way to go, I say. God gave us freewill, he sure as hell didn't intend for use to not us it.

Edit: My post for the situation:

Just as God has given the hand many fingers, so too, has God given man many religions.

That was said after the Great Khan held a debate between Catholics, Muslims, and Buddhists. Of course, as it followed the traditional format of a Mongolian wrestling match, aimag was drunk between matches and it finally ended with the Christians singing hymns, the Muslims innanely quoting the Quran, and the Buddhists just sat down and meditated, because everyone was so drunk that they couldn't carry on a rational debate.

Okay, here's the deal:

For some reason you have developed a raygun which can change people's brain waves to eliminate free will and can turn humans in people without individuality.
Perfect parts of a collective, so to speak.

The people would then have only one thing that makes them happy - and that's being part of this new society. Therefore, everyone would end up happy.

Would you destroy individuality to make everyone happy and make them live together in harmony?

What is "Free Will" and "Individuality" good for anyways? If we could be happier by just being a cog in a big system, wouldn't that be preferable to our modern world or war, fighting, competition, Darwinism and all the other ugly things that happen?

Who is to say that free will exists? If someone other than you had lived a life identical to yours in every fashion, would he not make the same decision as you? He would have the same background, have made all the same decisions you have in the past...

My point is that if free will doesn't exist, then individuality couldn't exist as a prerequiste to individuality is free will. In this case happiness would relevant only to the decisions that you were going to make anyway.

Who is to say that free will exists? If someone other than you had lived a life identical to yours in every fashion, would he not make the same decision as you? He would have the same background, have made all the same decisions you have in the past...

My point is that if free will doesn't exist, then individuality couldn't exist as a prerequiste to individuality is free will. In this case happiness would relevant only to the decisions that you were going to make anyway.

Except for the fact that that's about as useful to think about as whether or not we're living in a computer world generated by machines that use us as batteries.

If we have no free will, then there's nothing we can do about it, so it isn't worth worrying about.

That was said after the Great Khan held a debate between Catholics, Muslims, and Buddhists. Of course, as it followed the traditional format of a Mongolian wrestling match, aimag was drunk between matches and it finally ended with the Christians singing hymns, the Muslims innanely quoting the Quran, and the Buddhists just sat down and meditated, because everyone was so drunk that they couldn't carry on a rational debate.
i love this debate, if i recall correctly the catholic made an ass of himself, and was thoroughly ridiculed

It's just a basic philosophy question. Without free will then the question is meaningless. Every post previous just assumes that free will exists. I am arguing that it may not.

And, is it more worthless to think about the existance of free will or to answer a question that could never occur in the first place?

The Khan is also quoted as saying something to the effect of, "The Muslims are the only ones who can fight." I think he's biased.

Anyhow, freewill, if we we're talking about oomies, is necessary. Gotta have free will and individuality for that.

It's just a basic philosophy question. Without free will then the question is meaningless. Every post previous just assumes that free will exists. I am arguing that it may not.

And, is it more worthless to think about the existance of free will or to answer a question that could never occur in the first place?

Except for the fact that it's impossible to completely prove or disprove either theory. There's an equal amount of evidence and logic behind both.

I was under the impression that the question was, "Is free will worth not being perpetually happy."

Just because people were in a way forced to conform?
You can use this sort of concept both for religion and collectivism, I guess...but considering that the people wouldn't really have a sense of a loss afterwards, would this society be any worse than one people entered into voluntarily?


Yes; from a purely ethical point of view. The means never justify the ends. I don't believe such a society would be possible with one person pointing the hypothetical "raygun" (meaning any form of coercion) in the first place.

What KIND of collective are we talking about? for all I know, If I had that raygun, I'd turn the planet into one big giant collective orgy! :fluffle: :D

What is "Free Will" and "Individuality" good for anyways?Saving your baby that's inside your burning house instead of fighting the people resisting the ray with a blank stare on your face.

Would you destroy individuality to make everyone happy and make them live together in harmony?


Isn't that the aim of corporations? To eliminate individuality through conformity so that everyone will buy the same things, think the same way? I don't know if it'd promote harmony, as I'm vehemently opposed to the idea of not being a unique individual

No. Destroying individuality = destroying self-awareness. Everyone involved would cease to be a sapient being. Not only that, but the collective couldn't be intelligent either, since non-individual components wouldn't be capable of the self-differentiating and -organizing behaviors that give rise to the emergent group function of a hive-mind.

Basically, you'd be destroying intelligence on Earth, and turning everyone involved into non-sentient, non-self-aware animals, who would then therefore not be truly happy; you have to have some concept of self to have happiness beyond chemical pleasure and genetically hardwired response to sex and feeding. True emotional happiness requires a theory of mind that includes the self to some degree. You'd be turning the human race into mindless, true-happiness-less undifferentiated beasts and eliminating sapience on our planet.

Nope. I am an artist, and without free will and the individual paths encouraged by choice, I could not be, nor could anyone else. What is art, after all, but a way of showing others how YOU view the world as an individual? If we all were the same, we would have no art, and the world would be much poorer for it.

So I will take individuality, and the cantankerous mess that humanity is because of it, and keep my distinct view of life that goes with it, and make my own happiness, and perhaps help others around me find some too.

No. Destroying individuality = destroying self-awareness. Everyone involved would cease to be a sapient being. Not only that, but the collective couldn't be intelligent either, since non-individual components wouldn't be capable of the self-differentiating and -organizing behaviors that give rise to the emergent group function of a hive-mind.

Basically, you'd be destroying intelligence on Earth, and turning everyone involved into non-sentient, non-self-aware animals, who would then therefore not be truly happy; you have to have some concept of self to have happiness beyond chemical pleasure and genetically hardwired response to sex and feeding. True emotional happiness requires a theory of mind that includes the self to some degree. You'd be turning the human race into mindless, true-happiness-less undifferentiated beasts and eliminating sapience on our planet.

exactly as I said, corporations are evil :D They probably already have a gun like that and are just biding their time... :p

I'd rather be dead than be a drone.

That was said after the Great Khan held a debate between Catholics, Muslims, and Buddhists. Of course, as it followed the traditional format of a Mongolian wrestling match, aimag was drunk between matches and it finally ended with the Christians singing hymns, the Muslims innanely quoting the Quran, and the Buddhists just sat down and meditated, because everyone was so drunk that they couldn't carry on a rational debate.

LMAO! Is there an article on this on Wiki? If so do you know what it would be called?

Okay, here's the deal:

For some reason you have developed a raygun which can change people's brain waves to eliminate free will and can turn humans in people without individuality.
Perfect parts of a collective, so to speak.

The people would then have only one thing that makes them happy - and that's being part of this new society. Therefore, everyone would end up happy.

Would you destroy individuality to make everyone happy and make them live together in harmony?

What is "Free Will" and "Individuality" good for anyways? If we could be happier by just being a cog in a big system, wouldn't that be preferable to our modern world or war, fighting, competition, Darwinism and all the other ugly things that happen?

My first thought was:

:eek: Egad! How horrible!

Then I thought:

Bah! I dare them to try such a weapon on me. I'd short the sumbitch out.

Finally I thought:

I could really use a taco right about now...

I do say that if they shot it at LG, the sucker would create an explosion to make supernovae seem tiny by comparison.

No, that's a bad plan. What makes humans human, and not a species of highly evolved ants is our individuality, our diversity, our free will. I would never totally sacrifice free will on the altar of happiness(I say 'never totally sacrifice' because there are times and places when limiting free will is a good idea).

I'd commit suicide and take the human race with me (antimatter in the Marianas Trench sounds like a good plan) before allowing something like this to happen. I'd rather really be dead than be dead-in-life.

No, that's a bad plan. What makes humans human, and not a species of highly evolved ants is our individuality, our diversity, our free will. I would never totally sacrifice free will on the altar of happiness(I say 'never totally sacrifice' because there are times and places when limiting free will is a good idea).

Ants possess great differentiation.

I believe happiness is a decision, so how can some one without free will make that decision?

Okay, here's the deal:

For some reason you have developed a raygun which can change people's brain waves to eliminate free will and can turn humans in people without individuality.
Perfect parts of a collective, so to speak.

The people would then have only one thing that makes them happy - and that's being part of this new society. Therefore, everyone would end up happy.

Would you destroy individuality to make everyone happy and make them live together in harmony?

What is "Free Will" and "Individuality" good for anyways? If we could be happier by just being a cog in a big system, wouldn't that be preferable to our modern world or war, fighting, competition, Darwinism and all the other ugly things that happen?

Free Will and Individuality exist so we can pick which sports teams to root for and what music to listen to. And thats a good thing in my book!

Go White Sox!

Deal with the moronic actions of others or become a bee in a hive? I'll deal with the morons.

Okay, here's the deal:

For some reason you have developed a raygun which can change people's brain waves to eliminate free will and can turn humans in people without individuality.
Perfect parts of a collective, so to speak.

The people would then have only one thing that makes them happy - and that's being part of this new society. Therefore, everyone would end up happy.

Would you destroy individuality to make everyone happy and make them live together in harmony?

What is "Free Will" and "Individuality" good for anyways? If we could be happier by just being a cog in a big system, wouldn't that be preferable to our modern world or war, fighting, competition, Darwinism and all the other ugly things that happen?Since you Quantified the two no's I voted other for this reason.

Individuality is needed for society to grow. new thoughts, new ideas lead to new techonolgy, and new goals for that society.

Okay, here's the deal:

For some reason you have developed a raygun which can change people's brain waves to eliminate free will and can turn humans in people without individuality.
Perfect parts of a collective, so to speak.

The people would then have only one thing that makes them happy - and that's being part of this new society. Therefore, everyone would end up happy.

Would you destroy individuality to make everyone happy and make them live together in harmony?

What is "Free Will" and "Individuality" good for anyways? If we could be happier by just being a cog in a big system, wouldn't that be preferable to our modern world or war, fighting, competition, Darwinism and all the other ugly things that happen?
Such people would have nothing that "makes them happy"; they would be incapable of doing or "being" anything, as that requires will.

But assuming they could somehow have this happiness implanted into them, I would not destroy individuality to make everyone happy; life would be incredibly boring without individuality.

Wait a minute... without will, there wouldn't be life... we'd all be inanimate objects, so it doesn't matter. *grin*

"Free will" is not actually the same as "will". "Free will" is a philosophical idea about God and 'plans' and determination, and such. It says, either God's in charge or we are; in other words, God must leave us alone to make our own choices for us to be "free". Or the secular version: either circumstances determine our actions, or we do. If we do, then will is "free".

"Will" is self-determination. It is the self, the "me, myself and I" doing things (outside) and being things (inside). It is an expression of self, unique to each person.

Individuality is vital to being happy; if you lose yourself in identifying your "self" with things, groups and ideologies, you run the risk of your happiness being dependent upon those things, upon something outside of "you". That's a bad thing, and it can hurt a lot (like in relationships) when it goes sour.

I laughed that you lumped "Darwinism" in with fighting and war. ;)