NationStates Jolt Archive

Does the "engram" espoused by L. Ron Hubbard make more or less sense than the "meme" espoused by Richard Dawkins? BTW this isn't about theism, atheism or politics.

To me the engram is one of those mystical and immeasurable concepts that are purely in the psyche.

The meme, while still only an idea, has measurable results. The idea of the engram can be defined as a meme. It has definately shown the ability to replicate without the help of genes.

The first thing to note is that they are different things.
Engrams are sort of the physical representations of memories. Memes are sort of the building blocks someones culture is made up of, although it's easier to say it's just an idea/concept.

The first thing to note is that they are different things.
Engrams are sort of the physical representations of memories. Memes are sort of the building blocks someones culture is made up of, although it's easier to say it's just an idea/concept.

Good points. The engram was a concept I personally had a hard time with. Admittedly though, I haven't tried a session with an auditor. Although I have experienced the unwelcome manifestation of repressed memories, it wasn't in therapy and I didn't care to have it occur again.

The meme is a concept that just clicked for me. One of the things that helped was the book "The Lucifer Principle" by Howard Bloom. I visualized a meme vs gene as an allegorical computer/internet vs stone tablet/foot messenger.

I have a problem with memes in the same way as genes. In that people talk about like they have a will of their own. Like they want to reproduce and spread, instead of that that they happen to spread and reproduce.
If someone steals your idea, it's not the meme's credit that it has spread. It is due to the genes and memes of the stealer that wanted to add that meme to it's collective. Memes and genes are passive without the machinery to work on them.
It's a fine distinction, and mostly nitpicking about terminology. But it irks me for some reason.

I don't like the way the notion of memes equates ideas with gentic information, but that aside it's a far more credible notion than Hubbard's fairystory, and may even bear some connection to reality. Urban legends could probably be cited as examples of memes that have escaped into the wild and are breeding.

Does the "engram" espoused by L. Ron Hubbard make more or less sense than the "meme" espoused by Richard Dawkins? BTW this isn't about theism, atheism or politics.
The idea of memes makes more sense than engrams. I don't know about Dawkin's particular ideas about memes, not having read them, and I don't like the extreme ideas that the mind was developed purely as a vehicle for memes because that sounds a bit silly, but the idea of spreading and evolving cultural information bits makes plenty of sense.
More sense, certainly, than Hubbard's ideas about engrams leaving traces on peoples' 'protoplasm' and giving them arthritis, high blood pressure, and all sorts of other stuff.

from what I know an Engram is a memory containing pain and unconciusness. What I heard about the Surgeons on aircraft carriers is that they already have this idea. They never say during an operation. Because if they say things like "he's going to die" or "Shit" (when they drop a tool or something) It acts like a command for the person. You can see where the second example can lead.

This is just what I heard.


-Brian

Does the "engram" espoused by L. Ron Hubbard make more or less sense than the "meme" espoused by Richard Dawkins? BTW this isn't about theism, atheism or politics.

Memes make much more sense than engrams. I may be biased though, since I always found the idea of memes (NPI) fascinating, and the concept of memes as spreading organisms that could have a sort of purpose, cohesion, will, etc. of their own a challenging and interesting thought to wrap my mind around.

I'm shocked no one's mentioned religion and viral memes yet....

The idea of memes makes more sense than engrams. I don't know about Dawkin's particular ideas about memes, not having read them, and I don't like the extreme ideas that the mind was developed purely as a vehicle for memes because that sounds a bit silly, but the idea of spreading and evolving cultural information bits makes plenty of sense.
More sense, certainly, than Hubbard's ideas about engrams leaving traces on peoples' 'protoplasm' and giving them arthritis, high blood pressure, and all sorts of other stuff.

I agree that the mind/brain was not developed solely as a tool for meme replication. However, the drive to reproduce sexually can be linked to genes, and I believe the meme uses the human desire to be accepted to replicate itself. I could be off-base (not an abnormal event) but I can understand the meme concept as having some basis in reality.

from what I know an Engram is a memory containing pain and unconciusness. What I heard about the Surgeons on aircraft carriers is that they already have this idea. They never say during an operation. Because if they say things like "he's going to die" or "Shit" (when they drop a tool or something) It acts like a command for the person. You can see where the second example can lead.

This is just what I heard.


-Brian

I can see an unconscious reaction to conversation. The mind using it to create a fight or flight reaction for the rest of your life seems far-fetched. The same event creating hypertension or palpitations from then on is a little bizarre. And I guess the "F" f*ck word would be an interesting one to try during surgery.:D

Does the "engram" espoused by L. Ron Hubbard make more or less sense than the "meme" espoused by Richard Dawkins? BTW this isn't about theism, atheism or politics.
It makes much less sense. Hubbard thought that engrams could be picked up in utero.

Memes, on the other hand, are beliefs that are transmitted through language.

Since engrams are passed on by some spooky supernatural action and memes are passed on by well known and understood mechanisms, we can say that memes are more likely to be real.

Memes make much more sense than engrams. I may be biased though, since I always found the idea of memes (NPI) fascinating, and the concept of memes as spreading organisms that could have a sort of purpose, cohesion, will, etc. of their own a challenging and interesting thought to wrap my mind around.

I'm shocked no one's mentioned religion and viral memes yet....

You might want to read Burroughs amusing theory that written language is actually a virus: The Electronic Revolution (http://www.artdamage.com/wsb/electric.htm).