NationStates Jolt Archive

I bash the religious right a lot on this forum and elsewhere, and with good reason, I believe, but I think it's important to note when they do something right, so here I am applauding some evangelical leaders. (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-robertson7jan07,0,2650566.story?coll=la-home-world) I wouldn't get too used to seeing it. :D

Officials of conservative Christian churches and organizations suggested that Robertson was losing religious and political influence as a result of his remarks on Sharon and other recent controversial comments.

"I'm appalled that Pat Robertson would make such statements. He ought to know better," said Richard Land, president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest U.S. Protestant denomination.

"The arrogance of the statement shocks me almost as much as the insensitivity of it," Land said in an interview.

The Rev. Ted Haggard, president of the National Assn. of Evangelicals, said that Robertson no more spoke for evangelicals than "Dr. Phil," the television show host, spoke for psychologists.These aren't nobodies trying to make a name for themselves. These are the heaviest of heavy hitters in the evangelical community. I read an article about Haggard a few months back in Harper's Magazine--google it and read it if you're interested in seeing who has the real power in the evangelical community--and he's the guy who practically invented the mega-church system. He's the guy who talks to Bush while Dobson gets the headlines, so for him to come out and say a figure as big as Robertson is a chump is major.

Now, this doesn't change the fact that I think that these guys are generally bad for the country and for American society, but I feel I ought to note when they do something right.

I bash the religious right a lot on this forum and elsewhere, and with good reason, I believe, but I think it's important to note when they do something right, so here I am applauding some evangelical leaders. (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-robertson7jan07,0,2650566.story?coll=la-home-world) I wouldn't get too used to seeing it. :D
Don't worry ... we won't. :p

Robertson is going senile. Either that or he's become such a news whore that it's hard to tell the difference. Heh!

Hooray! It's good to know people can't be pigeon holed.

WoW

As a militant atheist reading that almost cuased me to faint.

That is bizare. I like it though.

Even though now that Pat has been dropped like a bad habit it will be impossable to use him as a real weapon against the religous right.

Oh well. Truth is the everything. I don't need Pat Robertson just as the religous right does not need him either.

I've never learned or understood much about the philosophy behind the protestant churches, but I've probably never met anyone as kind and courteous as the Evangelicals I met when staying in Kentucky.. I think power has loosened the tongues of guys like Pat Robertson just a bit too much.. he's an okay guy I'm sure, but he needs better handlers so as to keep some of his more frustrated language at bay.

I am amused that so many here are perplexed by this. It's like "OMG! you mean all christians are'nt dogmatic arseholes?" Sort of the left equivelllant of some homophobe in a moment of revelation saying, "OMG! you mean all gays are'nt pedophiles?"

I am amused that so many here are perplexed by this. It's like "OMG! you mean all christians are'nt dogmatic arseholes?" Sort of the left equivelllant of some homophobe in a moment of revelation saying, "OMG! you mean all gays are'nt pedophiles?"

Yes, but Christianity is the historic cause of almost all of the suffering and violence in the world.. think about it.. WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, the Inquisition, Rwanda, the Gran Chaco War.. all fought for Jesus. As one poster likes to say (his name escapes me) "Christianity must be destroyed in all forms" or something like that.. you don't believe it?

Yes, but Christianity is the historic cause of almost all of the suffering and violence in the world.. think about it.. WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, the Inquisition, Rwanda, the Gran Chaco War.. all fought for Jesus. As one poster likes to say (his name escapes me) "Christianity must be destroyed in all forms" or something like that.. you don't believe it?
Umm some of those examples are not exactly the best choices. WWI and WWII were caused by nationalism and a desire for resources, Jesus had very little to do with it, I mean not many(if any) of Hitler's speeches even envoked his name. Korea and Vietnam was caused by the competition between the US and USSR in the Cold War. Rwanda was caused by pure ethnic hatred between two tribes. Wars in the name of Christianity are far more rarer than they once were several hundred years ago.

Christianity cannot be blamed for all the worlds problems. Atheist nations are just as capable, and they have, committed atrocities that have exceeded the most horrible of crimes any religous zealot has managed to preform.

Umm some of those examples are not exactly the best choices. WWI and WWII were caused by nationalism and a desire for resources, Jesus had very little to do with it, I mean not many(if any) of Hitler's speeches even envoked his name. Korea and Vietnam was caused by the competition between the US and USSR in the Cold War. Rwanda was caused by pure ethnic hatred between two tribes. Wars in the name of Christianity are far more rarer than they once were several hundred years ago.
Someone just got zinged. Guess who?


Christianity cannot be blamed for all the worlds problems. Atheist nations are just as capable, and they have, committed atrocities that have exceeded the most horrible of crimes any religous zealot has managed to preform.Uhm it'd be good if you ran a comparison of the numbers here.

Yeah, Robertson is just a news whore. He isn't as big as he used to be, and now that he's only making 50 million dollars a year, he needs to amp it up. :rolleyes:

Fucking hypocrite. I hate him like Liberals hate Bush.

Victim of the Christian Faith (http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm)

To name a one of the more vile ones:

Christianity kills the cat
On July 1, 1976, Anneliese Michel, a 23-year-old student of a teachers college in Germany, died: she starved herself to death. For months she had been haunted by demonic visions and apparitions, and for months two Catholic priests - with explicit approval of the Catholic bishop of Würzburg - additionally pestered and tormented the wretched girl with their exorcist rituals. After her death in Klingenberg hospital - her body was littered with wounds - her parents, both of them fanatical Catholics, were sentenced to six months for not having called for medical help. None of the priests was punished: on the contrary, Miss Michel's grave today is a place of pilgrimage and worship for a number of similarly faithful Catholics (in the seventeenth century Würzburg was notorious for it's extensive witch burnings).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rwanda was caused by pure ethnic hatred between two tribes.

"Anglican as well as Catholic priests and nuns are suspect of having actively participated in murders. Especially the conduct of a certain Catholic priest has been occupying the public mind in Rwanda's capital Kigali for months. He was minister of the church of the Holy Family and allegedly murdered Tutsis in the most brutal manner. He is reported to have accompanied marauding Hutu militia with a gun in his cowl. In fact there has been a bloody slaughter of Tutsis seeking shelter in his parish. Even two years after the massacres many Catholics refuse to set foot on the threshold of their church, because to them the participation of a certain part of the clergy in the slaughter is well established. There is almost no church in Rwanda that has not seen refugees - women, children, old - being brutally butchered facing the crucifix.
According to eyewitnesses clergymen gave away hiding Tutsis and turned them over to the machetes of the Hutu militia.
In connection with these events again and again two Benedictine nuns are mentioned, both of whom have fled into a Belgian monastery in the meantime to avoid prosecution. According to survivors one of them called the Hutu killers and led them to several thousand people who had sought shelter in her monastery. By force the doomed were driven out of the churchyard and were murdered in the presence of the nun right in front of the gate. The other one is also reported to have directly cooperated with the murderers of the Hutu militia. In her case again witnesses report that she watched the slaughtering of people in cold blood and without showing response. She is even accused of having procured some petrol used by the killers to set on fire and burn their victims alive..."
____________________________________

Good to see Robertson getting pulled down by the people he claims to be in league with. It doesn't take a liberal to hate or disrespect this idiot.

Yeah, Robertson is just a news whore. He isn't as big as he used to be, and now that he's only making 50 million dollars a year, he needs to amp it up. :rolleyes:

Fucking hypocrite. I hate him like Liberals hate Bush.
Are you having us on?
Do you really mean for the reason that Bush is a hypocrite?
I'm seriously asking for clarification.

I am amused that so many here are perplexed by this. It's like "OMG! you mean all christians are'nt dogmatic arseholes?" Sort of the left equivelllant of some homophobe in a moment of revelation saying, "OMG! you mean all gays are'nt pedophiles?"
Conservative Christians. It would serve you well not to assume that all Christians are right-wing. Most are not.

Don't worry ... we won't. :p
Robertson is going senile. Either that or he's become such a news whore that it's hard to tell the difference. Heh!
I believe the proper term is attention whore

Someone just got zinged. Guess who?


Uhm it'd be good if you ran a comparison of the numbers here.

Well let think about it. Communist and Fascist nations are pretty atheist so if you think about all the people who died as a result of the domestic and foriegn policies of these nations.
Stalin and the USSR- 20 million
Mao Zedong and China- 40 million*
North Korea- 3 million+
Hitler- 34-60 million considering he officially started WWII of course the total death count is overall unknown.
Ottoman Empire- Muslim but were are just talking about Christianity so 1.5 million Armenians
* only 10 million were completely deliberate but were are testing the theory that the world would be a better place without Christianity.
I can really keep throwing out name and numbers for non-christian deaths
so i'll move on to the biggest Christian ones.
Thirty Years war- 7.5 Million deaths
French religous warfare between Catholics and Hugenots- 4 million
Crusades- 1.5 million deaths
Inquistion- 350 thousand
Ivan the Terrible-200 thousand
Witch hunts- 50-60 thousand

Well let think about it. Communist and Fascist nations are pretty atheist so if you think about all the people who died as a result of the domestic and foriegn policies of these nations.
Stalin and the USSR- 20 million
Mao Zedong and China- 40 million*
North Korea- 3 million+
Hitler- 34-60 million considering he officially started WWII of course the total death count is overall unknown.
Ottoman Empire- Muslim but were are just talking about Christianity so 1.5 million Armenians
* only 10 million were completely deliberate but were are testing the theory that the world would be a better place without Christianity.
I can really keep throwing out name and numbers for non-christian deaths
so i'll move on to the biggest Christian ones.
Thirty Years war- 7.5 Million deaths
French religous warfare between Catholics and Hugenots- 4 million
Crusades- 1.5 million deaths
Inquistion- 350 thousand
Ivan the Terrible-200 thousand
Witch hunts- 50-60 thousand
*nods*
I have. Thanks for indulging me. It does good to lend credibility.
The reason why i say, zinged was that poster's inclusion of this line ...
"Christianity must be destroyed in all forms" or something like that.. you don't believe it?

Victim of the Christian Faith (http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm)

To name a one of the more vile ones:

Christianity kills the cat
On July 1, 1976, Anneliese Michel, a 23-year-old student of a teachers college in Germany, died: she starved herself to death. For months she had been haunted by demonic visions and apparitions, and for months two Catholic priests - with explicit approval of the Catholic bishop of Würzburg - additionally pestered and tormented the wretched girl with their exorcist rituals. After her death in Klingenberg hospital - her body was littered with wounds - her parents, both of them fanatical Catholics, were sentenced to six months for not having called for medical help. None of the priests was punished: on the contrary, Miss Michel's grave today is a place of pilgrimage and worship for a number of similarly faithful Catholics (in the seventeenth century Würzburg was notorious for it's extensive witch burnings).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



.
The first one was one person and the second one merely says that a few catholic priests betrayed the Tutis. That does not mean that they planned or orchestrated the violence. In fact I have heard that many Catholic priests also helped the Tutis.

I'm not surprised. I may not agree with many things I hear from the Evangelical churches, but they are not blinded to evil or madness.

Advocating murder and calling oneself a Christian is like claiming you're a vegan and chowing down on a 30 oz Kobe steak.

No wonder any God-fearing Christian wants to distance himself from this train wreck.

Well let think about it. Communist and Fascist nations are pretty atheist so if you think about all the people who died as a result of the domestic and foriegn policies of these nations.
Stalin and the USSR- 20 million
Mao Zedong and China- 40 million*
North Korea- 3 million+
Hitler- 34-60 million considering he officially started WWII of course the total death count is overall unknown.
Ottoman Empire- Muslim but were are just talking about Christianity so 1.5 million Armenians
* only 10 million were completely deliberate but were are testing the theory that the world would be a better place without Christianity.
I can really keep throwing out name and numbers for non-christian deaths
so i'll move on to the biggest Christian ones.
Thirty Years war- 7.5 Million deaths
French religous warfare between Catholics and Hugenots- 4 million
Crusades- 1.5 million deaths
Inquistion- 350 thousand
Ivan the Terrible-200 thousand
Witch hunts- 50-60 thousand


I've been of the opinon for a while that more people have diad at the hands godlesness than of superstition. I wonder how it looks when you factor in population size vs deaths. I wouldn't classify Hitler unmder atheism. Hitler used religion to get his way.

He does tend to be a bit loud and disruptive, giving the entire sacrilegious structure of fraud and hatred a bad public image.

Atacking Sharon the way he did is not a particularly wise move politically, though it is quite in accordance with the doctrines advocated.

Hitler- 34-60 million considering he officially started WWII of course the total death count is overall unknown.
[...]
I can really keep throwing out name and numbers for non-christian deaths

Um, Hitler was a Catholic, and his only real problem with the Catholic church was it's power base was in Rome and not Germany. If you've ever flipped through a copy of Mein Kampf, you'd come across a lot of quotes like [switch your lunacy filters on before reading]:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

"For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: 'Lord, make us free!' is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: 'Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!'"

"And so he advances on his fatal road until another force comes forth to oppose him, and in a mighty struggle hurls the heaven-stormer back to Lucifer. Germany is today the next great war aim of Bolshevism. It requires all the force of a young missionary idea to raise our people up again, to free them from the snares of this international serpent..."

And so on. Bigger list here: http://www.creationtheory.org/Essays/Hitler.shtml

Well let think about it. Communist and Fascist nations are pretty atheist so if you think about all the people who died as a result of the domestic and foriegn policies of these nations.
Stalin and the USSR- 20 million
Mao Zedong and China- 40 million*
North Korea- 3 million+
Hitler- 34-60 million considering he officially started WWII of course the total death count is overall unknown.
Ottoman Empire- Muslim but were are just talking about Christianity so 1.5 million Armenians
* only 10 million were completely deliberate but were are testing the theory that the world would be a better place without Christianity.
I can really keep throwing out name and numbers for non-christian deaths
so i'll move on to the biggest Christian ones.
Thirty Years war- 7.5 Million deaths
French religous warfare between Catholics and Hugenots- 4 million
Crusades- 1.5 million deaths
Inquistion- 350 thousand
Ivan the Terrible-200 thousand
Witch hunts- 50-60 thousand

I don't think this is a helpful exersize, comparing 'christian' with 'non-christian' war etc dead, on, oh, so many levels... The bottom line is likely that religion is at best a mixed blessing to humanity, but probably just about worth persevering with.

But purely out of a sense of historical helpfulness...are you remembering our friend proportions here? for example, 4million french in the time period you're talking about is somewhere between a fifth and a sixth of all french people alive at the time, if I'm remembering right...?

Communist and Fascist nations are pretty atheist

This sounds new to me...And what's "pretty" atheist?

Communist and Fascist nations are pretty atheist

This sounds new to me...And what's "pretty" atheist?

The Soviet Union and Red China both had state enforced atheism under pain of death. The Fascists were sort of an unholy breeding of Nihilism and Social Darwinism

But yeah... it's about damn time this guy was denounced. The guys an asshole!

The Soviet Union and Red China both at state enforced atheism under pain of death. The Fascists were sort of an unholy breeding of Nihilism and Social Darwinism

Okay....soo....What about pretty atheist? And were all these deaths in the name of atheism, or just caused by an atheist country? Is it about who's controlling the country? What about everything Bush is doing, does that count toward christian deaths?

I don't think that someone who criticises Pat Robertson deserves any praise no matter who they are. I believe anyone that doesn't consider him to be a total and complete joke must seriously suffer from some sort of imbalance.

I don't think that someone who criticises Pat Robertson deserves any praise no matter who they are. I believe anyone that doesn't consider him to be a total and complete joke must seriously suffer from some sort of imbalance.

You do realize you just criticized Pat Robertson, right?

The Fascists were sort of an unholy breeding of Nihilism and Social Darwinism

There was nothing nihilistic about fascism.

The elevation of the state, the race, the cause over everything else is extremely anti-nihilistic.

You do realize you just criticized Pat Robertson, right?

I think he was trying to say that criticising Pat Robertson is like saying the sky is blue. It's nothing special and doesn't deserve praise.

Damnit...there goes my theory that a bunch of right-wing fanatical Christians with money and a following had a contest to see who could say the dumbest shit. For the past few months, Robertson was definitely in the lead...I guess ripping world leaders in inappropriate and moronic ways is his bailiwick, whereas claiming cartoon characters to be homosexual is Jerry Falwell's and cheering natural disasters for possibly killing gay or otherwise "immoral" people is Fred Phelps' specialty. Seems Falwell was slacking and Phelps hasn't had a lot of material since Katrina, but Robertson's been the easiest to criticize in a while.

So let's see...who's next? Falwell claiming those guys from the Wiggles are gay? Jacques Chirac kicks off and Robertson cheers? And earthquake trashes San Francisco and Phelps does the electric boogaloo in celebration? Place your bets now!

You do realize you just criticized Pat Robertson, right?Of course.

There was nothing nihilistic about fascism.

The elevation of the state, the race, the cause over everything else is extremely anti-nihilistic.
At least that's what they are led to believe. They as in the idiots that defend fascism.

I think he was trying to say that criticising Pat Robertson is like saying the sky is blue. It's nothing special and doesn't deserve praise.More or less. :D

There was nothing nihilistic about fascism.

The elevation of the state, the race, the cause over everything else is extremely anti-nihilistic.

Though you could argue that the destructiong of the individual fascism requires renders life meaningless.

There is no argument there... that's a fact.

Sorry, Nazz - it's just not good enough for my liking.

I'm a very tolerant kinda guy. Thassa big part of how I was raised. But no matter how tolerant I might've been raised to be, I just can't abide Evangelism, those who preach it, those who practice it, and especially not those who get duped into signing away their souls due to it.

So a bunch of smug know-it-alls are coming down on one of their fellow smug know-it-all colleagues? Who cares?

It's not like they've decided to stop harassing people in their homes or anything. If they did that, I might even sit up and take notice.

Though you could argue that the destructiong of the individual fascism requires renders life meaningless.

Sure, you could. I think it would be a ridiculous statement, however. People who embrace the, for lack of a better term, "herd morality" tend to see their life as quite meaningful and their contribution as significant and righteous.

Societies bent upon perpetuating such herd moralities, however, do tend to destroy many lives.

Sorry, Nazz - it's just not good enough for my liking.

I'm a very tolerant kinda guy. Thassa big part of how I was raised. But no matter how tolerant I might've been raised to be, I just can't abide Evangelism, those who preach it, those who practice it, and especially not those who get duped into signing away their souls due to it.

So a bunch of smug know-it-alls are coming down on one of their fellow smug know-it-all colleagues? Who cares?

It's not like they've decided to stop harassing people in their homes or anything. If they did that, I might even sit up and take notice.I can appreciate that, and even agree with it up to a point. All I was saying was that when Robertson came out with his earlier insane statements, none of those who are supposedly on the same side as he was had denounced him, and I'm glad to see that they had done so this time. When it comes right down to it, if I saw either Land or Haggard--the two men quoted in this article--on fire, I might not piss on them to put the fire out. I think they're dangerous men. But they did do something right here, and so I figured it was only right to recognize that fact.

Sure, you could. I think it would be a ridiculous statement, however. People who embrace the, for lack of a better term, "herd morality" tend to see their life as quite meaningful and their contribution as significant and righteous.

Societies bent upon perpetuating such herd moralities, however, do tend to destroy many lives.
If there is any ideology that implements a herd morality it is most definitely fascism.

Damnit...there goes my theory that a bunch of right-wing fanatical Christians with money and a following had a contest to see who could say the dumbest shit. For the past few months, Robertson was definitely in the lead...I guess ripping world leaders in inappropriate and moronic ways is his bailiwick, whereas claiming cartoon characters to be homosexual is Jerry Falwell's and cheering natural disasters for possibly killing gay or otherwise "immoral" people is Fred Phelps' specialty. Seems Falwell was slacking and Phelps hasn't had a lot of material since Katrina, but Robertson's been the easiest to criticize in a while.

So let's see...who's next? Falwell claiming those guys from the Wiggles are gay? Jacques Chirac kicks off and Robertson cheers? And earthquake trashes San Francisco and Phelps does the electric boogaloo in celebration? Place your bets now!

Now that the religious right has severed any percieved ties with Pat Robertson will we care what he says any more?

If Pat falls dose he not take Jerry with him?

All that's left is Fred. Unless Fred has been dumped already. At that point there will be no retards speaking on behalf of the religious right.

Opps. I forgot. There is still Mike Savage, Ann Coultier, and a whole slew of others after that.

Sure, you could. I think it would be a ridiculous statement, however. People who embrace the, for lack of a better term, "herd morality" tend to see their life as quite meaningful and their contribution as significant and righteous.

That's just side stepping what I said though. I didn't say fascist regimes are nihilistic because they kill lots of people. But for a "herd morality" to develope, people must lose what makes them human, they surrender their indivuality for "myths" (in Sorel's sense of the term) given to them from up on high. The individual becomes trivial, meaningless and with no purpose other than to obey without question.

Also, since you use the term "herd morality" is it fair to assume you at least have a passing knowledge of Nietzsche? In which case you should be able to see a parallel between what you say and his criticisms of religion (well, Christianity). That it removed meaning from our earthly existence in order to make people focus on an assumed afterlife. To my mind this is no different then removing meaning from our current existence in order to bring about a new world order or whichever myth is propagated.

That's just side stepping what I said though. I didn't say fascist regimes are nihilistic because they kill lots of people. But for a "herd morality" to develope, people must lose what makes them human, they surrender their indivuality for "myths" (in Sorel's sense of the term) given to them from up on high. The individual becomes trivial, meaningless and with no purpose other than to obey without question.

Also, since you use the term "herd morality" is it fair to assume you at least have a passing knowledge of Nietzsche? In which case you should be able to see a parallel between what you say and his criticisms of religion (well, Christianity). That it removed meaning from our earthly existence in order to make people focus on an assumed afterlife. To my mind this is no different then removing meaning from our current existence in order to bring about a new world order or whichever myth is propagated.

Yes, that would be fair to assume, and is accurate.

I do not accept Nietzsche's point of view on this matter, nor yours. Both Christianity and Fascism demand certain actions in the context of subordination to the exalted entities, and because they demand present action, not present apathy (as true nihilism would), they bring meaning into people's lives.