NationStates Jolt Archive

Using the following definitions from dictionary.com...

em·pire
n.
1. A political unit having an extensive territory or comprising a number of territories or nations and ruled by a single supreme authority.
2. The territory included in such a unit.

he·gem·o·ny (h-jm-n, hj-mn)
n. pl. he·gem·o·nies

The predominant influence, as of a state, region, or group, over another or others.

And if it's the first, why can't we use cool names and get flashy uniforms like the other empires did? :D

And if it's the first, why can't we use cool names and get flashy uniforms like the other empires did? :D

Because they were neither cool, nor flashy, nor all that desirable. It took Europe a millennium to get that, please don't bring it back. It's really quite tacky, all of it.

both

Because they were neither cool, nor flashy, nor all that desirable. It took Europe a millennium to get that, please don't bring it back. It's really quite tacky, all of it.
And here you have to go and ruin something with your damn logic and reasoning :p

Poll finally added

both
Quite true. The 'states' in the United states of America makes us an empire over the states. We are obviously a Hegemony (largest defence budjet in the world)

(largest defence budjet in the world)

Isn't it like something like 80%+ of our expenses?

I'd have to say Empire. Not only do we hold dominion over the mainland states, we also have Hawaii and Puerto Rico[sp].

Quite true. The 'states' in the United states of America makes us an empire over the states.

more than that (which is a perfectly good point itself), we still control a bunch of non-state territories, and have partial-control over others.

And here you have to go and ruin something with your damn logic and reasoning :p

It's neither logic nor reasoning - it's common fashion sense.

I'd have to say Empire. Not only do we hold dominion over the mainland states, we also have Hawaii and Puerto Rico[sp].

and the virgin islands, guam, and samoa. and partial control of micronesia, the marshall islands, and palau. and probably a few others i'm forgetting.

I've never looked at the nation in respects of an "Empire". Technically France is still one with territories in the Pacific, same to the Dutch...so I do not buy America as an Imperial Regime. The Middle East conflicts aren't satilite states (yet, at any rate), though America does have military bases allowed through NATO in just about every tactical location possible as reminants of the Cold war. The USA is more or less a Hegemony simply through title, one small city calls the shots on one level, but each state has the right to call their own. Many go with what that one city has to say strictly out of funding...the question was far to open and could easily be answered by either a "glass half empty" or vice versa mind set.

and the virgin islands, guam, and samoa. and partial control of micronesia, the marshall island, and palau. and probably a few others i'm forgetting.

Yes, but we influence them our laws do not directly affect their goverment.

If they choose to accept all of our laws that are passed or will be passed then we are still ahegmon for we (under the definition) are still exerting our influence w/out real jurisdiction.

Will post later with OED definitions.

However if we call them territories what it the legal definition of that?
Does it have any jurisdictional consequence?

and the virgin islands, guam, and samoa. and partial control of micronesia, the marshall island, and palau. and probably a few others i'm forgetting.

Yes, but we influence them our laws do not directly affect their goverment.

If they choose to accept all of our laws that are passed or will be passed then we are still ahegmon for we (under the definition) are still exerting our influence w/out real jurisdiction.

Will post later with OED definitions.

However if we call them territories what it the legal definition of that?
Does it have any jurisdictional consequence?

Hegemony....When Republicans take offense at a store wishing "season's greetings" it is a cultural dominance of one group over another. You can also see that effect in the battle of science and 'education'. Intelligent Design is a powerplay to affect a change in the foundations of our culture and society. Our money does the same in the global perspective. Our defense budget barely covers a war in Iraq, and even then most consider us to be spread thin. An empire requires a strong and big standing army. More importantly, the hawks in charge are still interested in nuclear weapons, something that is obsolete in a war on terror, which is a clear sign of dominance and not a sign of strategic empire building. Arguably, our addition of "in god we trust" and "under god" was an act of cultural dominance in the early days of the cold war. We needed something to separate our mean and nasty from the mean and nasty of 'those godless commies'.

Actually, the US spends only about 3% of it's GDP on the military.

As for Empire vs Hegemony, the US is not an empire in the old sense of the world (Rome, the Muslim Empires, or the European Colonial Empires). If someone wants to call it an empire in a negative way, they will invariably interpret the definition of empire however they choose. I'm not much worried what it's called, myself.

common fashion sense.

Huh, doesn't including "fashion" in there make it an oxymoron or somethign?:cool:

Neither.

If it was an empire or Hegemony you would see much cheaper oil for we Americans, however, we are a Republic, not an empire.

America - Empire or Hegemony?

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Using the following definitions from dictionary.com...


Quote:
em·pire
n.
1. A political unit having an extensive territory or comprising a number of territories or nations and ruled by a single supreme authority.
2. The territory included in such a unit.



Quote:
he·gem·o·ny (h-jm-n, hj-mn)
n. pl. he·gem·o·nies

The predominant influence, as of a state, region, or group, over another or others.


And if it's the first, why can't we use cool names and get flashy uniforms like the other empires did?

"World Culture" is the hegemony. Not America.

The fact that much of "world culture" was either invented or "improved" by
America such that it was appropriated by "the world" because of it's
attractiveness and efficacy does not make it "American" per se.

America is not an empire. I rather wish it were, personally. Though, it would
not be a good thing for America to be so.

The problem with America being an empire would be that it would shorten
America's tenure as predominant influence in the world. To actually become
a "dictator of behavior" to other nations would amplify internal corruption and
generate external resentment to such an extent that the system would break
down in very short order, with a resultant "dark ages" decending over the
planet.

The "benefits" of a true "American Empire" would be a short lived
(potential) "Golden Age" that would appear like a totalitarian nightmare/dream
(depending on your point of view about such things).

-Iakeo

While we are definetlly a hegemony and have been for at least two generations- taking on Europe's defence responsibilities alone did that- we cannot be considered an Empire. We do not dictate laws to other nations. We do not collect tribute from other nations (having people sell us stuff doesn't count, hippie).

You can (and all the hippies will) argue that America is some kind of "cultural Empire", seeing as pretty much every country in the world eats at McDonalds' drinks coffee from Starbucks, smokes Marlboros, drinks Coca Cola, wears Levi's, watches MTV, and listens to Fifty Cent.

No one forces them to do any of these things. If people choose yo wear Nikes over Bulgarian sneakers made of plastic, its because the Nikes are supirior. And while we could argue whether Desperate Houswives is superior to anything in the Louvre or not, people like Desperate Houswives better.

Back in the '60s, people were running comparisons between the Roman Republic and the American Republic. The general idea was that, eventually, we would follow in the footsteps of the Romans and evolve into an Empire with a militaristic bent. Does that seem far-fetched to anyone? Doesn't to me.

Yes, but we influence them our laws do not directly affect their goverment.

no, we have actually do direct control over various aspects of their administration - the extent of which depends on the particular arrangement of the territory. even the ones under the free association compacts do not have full control over their governments.

If it was an empire or Hegemony you would see much cheaper oil for we Americans, however, we are a Republic, not an empire.
You are a global Hegemon, and try to widen your influence, as a nation.

And you are seeing much cheaper oil, my friend. Try filling your car in any nation other than the US - preferrably Europe.

You are a global Hegemon, and try to widen your influence, as a nation.

And you are seeing much cheaper oil, my friend. Try filling your car in any nation other than the US - preferrably Europe.
Well, the actual cost of gas isn't all too different between Europe and US. The big difference comes from all the large taxes on gas in Europe compared to the US.
http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/price.html

If it was an empire or Hegemony you would see much cheaper oil for we Americans

don't be stupid - the interests of the ruling class are not related except in tangential ways to the interests of regular americans.

em·pire
n.
1. A political unit having an extensive territory or comprising a number of territories or nations and ruled by a single supreme authority.
2. The territory included in such a unit.

This definition of empire describes the U.S. even in peacetime.. extensive territory, comprised of numerious territories, ruled by a supreme authority.. hm. We've got that even if we had isolationist policies. As far as I see it though, we're not actively annexing territory to our own, so empire wouldn't be the proper term. Whether we expand our borders of trade and/or industry as a consequence of our military activities only figures in if they were a large part of the initial purpose, which may be, from a cynic's perspective, but that's not my view.

Hegemony,

The predominant influence, as of a state, region, or group, over another or others. "

Is more accurate by far, I'd say. We're certainly the most dominant influence on our hemisphere.

If you want to count the 50 states as conquered territory (as they are) then it's an Empire. But most people who accuse America of imperialism don't mean the fifty states. Otherwise, America is a hegemony.

Neither.

If it was an empire or Hegemony you would see much cheaper oil for we Americans, however, we are a Republic, not an empire.
Americans do get cheaper oil than everyone else. America has a policy of maintaining an unchallengeable military might.

If America is an Empire, it is an empire of peace and freedom loving people from all around the globe that has helped bring prosperity, technology, and jobs to the world. An Empire of We The People, is perhaps the only Empire capable of surviving the ages.

If you want to count the 50 states as conquered territory (as they are) then it's an Empire. But most people who accuse America of imperialism don't mean the fifty states. Otherwise, America is a hegemony.


Americans do get cheaper oil than everyone else. America has a policy of maintaining an unchallengeable military might.

Illogical, America is the people, not the land.

America is much like Kartago was before, america is close to a hegemoney.
Also america was also at first a coloney, but then became bigger then its motherland..

Phenixian coloney of Kartago for those who don't know

Illogical, America is the people, not the land.
I'm referring to America in the sense of the land enclosed by its borders and governed by the government in Washington DC.

If America is an Empire, it is an empire of peace and freedom loving people from all around the globe that has helped bring prosperity, technology, and jobs to the world. An Empire of We The People, is perhaps the only Empire capable of surviving the ages.

i fail to see how you could have an empire of peace. either the people not currently in your territory want to be in it or not. if they do, then they will either move their through immigration or their nation will voluntarily join yours, by the people rising up, or electing a government that has that as its policy (if you believe a governemnt would voluntarily dissolve itself in a such a way). as such, you dont have an "empire", it would be depending on the terms of merging, a federation or something else like that.
if they dont want to be part of the empire, then you have to invade, or try and force them some other way, collapse their economy, bribe the government, fund some groups within the area to do a coup d'etat or whatever. as such, its hardly peaceful, is it?

a federation or something else like that.

You've falsely defined Empire using some neo-definition that is obviously open to revisionism. You can have Empires of Peace, you can Empires of Love, you can have Empires of Whatever the Heck You Want, it merely depends on how you are defining "empire" and the word "empire" is not defined souly by Empire of Military Oppression, which America is obviously not because most Americans from North to South America do not live under such conditions except in states like Cuba, and increasingly Venezuela. If that is your definition of Empire and asking if America is one, the answer is no. As the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and other Charters of Freedom are the foremost of many Americans minds when making decisions about the role of government and civil life, even the dissidents of various Administrations often times find themselves competing for public support on the basis that their views are "those most compatible with the Founding intent" and the values and principles of liberty, justice, and equality.

I'm referring to America in the sense of the land enclosed by its borders and governed by the government in Washington DC.

And I'm referring to America in the sense of those people around the world who recognize the Independence of the United States of America and share with it in the pursuit of happiness.

its a hegemonic empire, it controls not by holding a bat over peoples heads but by influencing their minds. much more insidious if you ask me.

And I'm referring to America in the sense of those people around the world who recognize the Independence of the United States of America and share with it in the pursuit of happiness.
That's a rather unorthodox definition of a country. So I don't believe the USA to be the great Satan, does this mean I can say in seriousness, "I am America"? Very feel-good of you. America is not composed of people who live in various places around the world. It's composed of the people who live within the borders of the USA.

America=the USA for the purposes of this discussion

btw, America can hardly be an Empire of Peace when you have wars in every decade.

its a hegemonic empire, it controls not by holding a bat over peoples heads but by influencing their minds. much more insidious if you ask me.
Get your tinfoil hats on, fellas!

I'll go with both as well. For the obvious reasons.

This definition of empire describes the U.S. even in peacetime.. extensive territory, comprised of numerious territories, ruled by a supreme authority.. hm. We've got that even if we had isolationist policies. As far as I see it though, we're not actively annexing territory to our own, so empire wouldn't be the proper term.

so the instant the roman empire stopped expanding it ceased to be an empire?

That's a rather unorthodox definition of a country. So I don't believe the USA to be the great Satan, does this mean I can say in seriousness, "I am America"? Very feel-good of you. America is not composed of people who live in various places around the world. It's composed of the people who live within the borders of the USA.

America=the USA for the purposes of this discussion

btw, America can hardly be an Empire of Peace when you have wars in every decade.


Get your tinfoil hats on, fellas!

1. Americans live all around the globe. We have embassies everywhere.
2. Peace continues to survive regardless of the wars which the worst of mankind has brought on America.

Americans do get cheaper oil than everyone else. America has a policy of maintaining an unchallengeable military might.

That's only because we don't tax it as heavily. Americans pay the same market price for oil as any other nation, since the price of oil is determined by trading in the US and Europe.

Quite true. The 'states' in the United states of America makes us an empire over the states. We are obviously a Hegemony (largest defence budjet in the world)


All wrong, the states originally joined and formed and controlled the federal government. The United States became an empire during the American Civil War, when Emperor Lincoln conquered the independent and sovereign nation of the Confederate States of America. Then the Federal government gained control over individual citizens lives when FDR introduced the welfare state.

Today America is a hegemon, not because of the largest defense budget (because china is about to outspend us), but because our corporations are present throughout the world, the majority of people want to buy and sell in dollars, and we control most of the worlds resources.

Americans do get cheaper oil than everyone else. America has a policy of maintaining an unchallengeable military might.

While Americans do have a policy of maintaining, as you put it, "unchallengeable military might", the reason for that policy is because, for whatever reason, America decided about sixty years ago to take on the defense responcibilities of Europe and (later) much of Asia. Why? I'm sure the conspiracy minded among you think its in order to steal all of Belgium's oil and all of Vietnam's oil, as well as all the oil in Vietnam and Cambodia- that is, after all, the only reason Amerikkka goes to war, right? Not to stop the Hitlers, Stalins, and Pol Pots of the world at all.

It's aaaaall about oil. And Haliburton.

"War, Nobby. Huh! What is it good for?" he said.

"Dunno, Sarge. Freeing slaves, maybe?"

Absol- well, okay".

"Defending yourself against a totalitarian aggressor?"

"All right, I'll grant you that, but-"

"Saving civilization from a horde of-"

"It doesn't do any good in the long run is what I'm saying, Nobby, if you'd listen for five seconds together" said Fred Colon sharply.

-Thud! by Terry Pratchett