NationStates Jolt Archive


Tinfoil Hats On! Different Take on JFK Assassination

Deep Kimchi
08-01-2006, 01:59
Posted in another thread, I think this deserves its own thread.

Here's the only problem I have with the Warren Commission report.

The first problem was to see whether Oswald could have fired three shots in 5.6 seconds. This time was determined from the film of the assassination. Because the assassin's view of the President was blocked by the oak tree until film frame 207, this was assumed to be the earliest point at which the President could have been shot. On film frame 313, the last shot is clearly discernable. Using frame 210 as the earliest point, as the Report does, a maximum of 103 film frames elapsed between the first and last shot, and, since the camera speed was 18.3 frames per second, the maximum times that elapsed was 5.6 seconds. Thus it remained to be seen whether Oswald was capable of accurately firing the rifle three times in 5.6 seconds.

The rifle tests held by the FBI and Army were an important part of the evidence. The first tests with Oswald's rifle were conducted on Nov 27, 1963, by the FBI. Each of three rifle experts fired three shots at a stationary target fifteen yards away (not a moving target up to 85 yards away). All the shots were high and to the right of the aiming point. The first shooter's firing time was 9 seconds. The second's was 8 seconds, and the last was 6 seconds. Thus none of the FBI experts equaled Oswald's time despite the fact that their target was stationary and only fifteen yards away, whereas Oswald's was moving and changing range from 60 to 85 yards.

Later the same day, the FBI experts fired two more series of shots to determine how fast the weapon could be fired without aiming. The first series of three shots was fired in 4.8 seconds, and the second in 4.6 seconds. They testified that firing in 4.6 seconds is "firing this weapon as fast as the bolt can be operated".

The final FBI tests were held at Quantico, Virginia, on March 16, 1964. The FBI fired three series of shots at a target 100 yards away. The time for the first series was 5.9 seconds; for the second series 6.2 seconds, and for the third 6.5 seconds. Not only did the FBI fail to equal the time, but all of the shots missed. The FBI explained in testimony that the inaccuracy was due to an uncorrectable mechanical deficiency in the scope sights - that is, the weapon could not be aimed accurately by anyone.

The Warren Commission was not happy with this answer, and so it arranged for the Army Ballistic Research Lab to conduct further tests on March 27, 1964. Three rifle experts, all of whom held Master rifle ratings from the National Rifle Association (about as good as it gets) fired at three silhouette targets located at distances matching the distances of the Presidential limousine from the source of the shots during the assassination.

Hendrix fired his first series of three shots in 8.25 seconds and missed the second target. He fired his second series in 7.0 seconds and missed the third target. Staley fired his first series in 6.75 seconds and his second series in 6.45 seconds - both times he missed the second target. Miller was the only expert to equal Oswald's time - he fired his first series in 4.6 seconds and his second series in 5.5 seconds, although he missed the second target both times. Miller later fired a third series, using the standard iron sights after removing the telescopic sights - he fired three shots in 4.45 seconds, but the third shot went wild.

Although the Army tests demonstrated that it was at least possible to fire three shots in 5.6 seconds, three factors must be taken into account in evaluating these tests - factors that were NEVER addressed by the Warren Commission.

1. Experts were timed only from the sound of the first shot to the sound of the last shot. This meant that they had unlimited time to aim at the first target and pull the trigger before they were timed. The assassin, however, only had 5.6 seconds for all three shots from the moment the car first became visible, and thus his aiming time has to be included in the total. This is a significant factor. For example, if it is assumed that it took the assassin one second to react, aim, and pull the trigger, he only had 4.6 seconds, not 5.6 seconds, to fire. Thus, in order to make comparisons, this aiming factor must be added to the expert's time.

2. The experts were firing at stationary targets, while the assassin was firing at a moving target. All experts testified that a moving target would have slowed down the shooting - at least 1 second per shot. This testimony was later dropped from the Warren Commission report for reasons unknown.

3. When the Army experts found that the sights on the rifle could not be accurately used or adjusted to get the rifle on target, they repaired the scope mounts by placing shims on the mount in order to get the rifle on target. That is, the rifle was completely inaccurate before testing, and only after major repairs was the rifle capable of hitting anything at all. Thus, the experts fired the rifles with accurate sights, whereas, so far as is known, the user of the rifle fired with inaccurate sights.

To date, no examination of the shooting, no recreation of the shooting, and no computer simulation of the shooting has addressed these issues: firing a inaccurately sighted rifle with the skill superior to most Master marksmen in less time than has been demonstrated.
Super-power
08-01-2006, 02:04
Talk about your burden of proof... O_O
Will we ever find out *who* killed JFK?
Deep Kimchi
08-01-2006, 02:08
Talk about your burden of proof... O_O
Will we ever find out *who* killed JFK?


As I spend a lot of time shooting, especially with rifles, I've been fascinated with the supposed ability of Oswald to do this.

I've used much nicer rifles with much better sights, and unless the weapon is a semiautomatic, I've never been able to match the time.

I've even fired one of the old Carcano rifles with an identical scope - never came close - the bolt is one of the worst designed and sloppily made. The rifle he supposedly used was a cheap piece of crap with a worthless scope on top.
The Black Forrest
08-01-2006, 02:09
Talk about your burden of proof... O_O
Will we ever find out *who* killed JFK?

Probably. When all that can be punished are dead.....
Neu Leonstein
08-01-2006, 02:11
I've used much nicer rifles with much better sights, and unless the weapon is a semiautomatic, I've never been able to match the time.
Maybe he was just a lot better than you...:p

I stick with the "Castro did it!"-Theory. Sounds the most interesting to me. I don't really care though who actually fired the bullet - Oswald was probably part of a team, and they only managed to catch the one guy.
Deep Kimchi
08-01-2006, 02:14
Maybe he was just a lot better than you...:p

I stick with the "Castro did it!"-Theory. Sounds the most interesting to me. I don't really care though who actually fired the bullet - Oswald was probably part of a team, and they only managed to catch the one guy.

Difficult to say about "who was better". I still hold the range record for the moving target range at Ft. Benning.

Seems that other experts weren't able to do it either, as I posted.

Although I don't offer the hypothesis of multiple shooters, I do think there's plenty of evidence (as posted previously) that it wasn't possible for one person to do it with that particular rifle. It's also interesting that the Warren Commission dropped most of that testimony from its report because it conflicted with the "magic bullet" theory.
Cannot think of a name
08-01-2006, 02:25
The head of the film department at my alma mater had this take (http://www.eai.org/eai/tape.jsp?itemID=4109) on the whole deal, which I think is relivant.
Using those infamous few frames of film as their starting point, T.R. Uthco and Ant Farm construct a multi-levelled event that is simultaneously a live performance spectacle, a taped re-enactment of the assassination, a mock documentary, and, perhaps most insidiously, a simulation of the Zapruder film itself
The grotesque juxtaposition of circus and tragedy calls our media "experience" and collective memory of the actual event into question. The gulf between reality and image is foregrounded by the manifest devices of Doug Hall's impersonation of Kennedy and Michel's drag transformation into Jacqueline Kennedy.
Through a deconstruction of the filmic image, the artists underscore the media's importance to contemporary mythology -- in which greatness is more a measure of drama than substance -- and the extent to which it can be manipulated. In light of television's transformation of the American political system -- and the later election of a movie star to the presidency -- The Eternal Frame continues to ring a truthful and haunting chord in the American consciousness.
Hall, in his role as the Artist-President, addresses his audience with the ironic observation that "I am, in reality, only another image on your screen."
He's also the guy who did this-
http://container.zkm.de/presse/AntFarm_72dpi/4_Cadillac_Ranch_x.jpg
He's a great guy.
Ravea
08-01-2006, 02:34
It was obviously a magic bullet.

When will you guts ever learn?
The South Islands
08-01-2006, 02:49
I believe his Brain spontaneously exploded.

It's just one of those things that happen at inopportune times.
Ravenshrike
08-01-2006, 02:59
Is anybody surprised at this. The investigation had LBJ's prints all over it. It's a no-brainer that evidence was quashed.
Zatarack
08-01-2006, 03:01
I believe it was the CIA. Kennedy wasn't one of their favorite people.
The Jovian Moons
08-01-2006, 03:03
JFK's head goes backwards on the film. If you're shot from behind how can your head go backwards??
Bobs Own Pipe
08-01-2006, 03:06
I used to play Lee Harvey Oswald as a kid. I'd mow a "road" in the back lawn, and use a Batmobile model with Star Wars figures to serve as my motorcade. I'd sit up on the second-story balcony with an air rifle and take out JFK.

Sometimes I managed to get Jackie, too.



*memories...*
Anarchic Conceptions
08-01-2006, 03:08
JFK's head goes backwards on the film. If you're shot from behind how can your head go backwards??

(Not sure if this is true or not, but this is how it was explained to me, and not having a rifle or a human head available I haven't been able to test it.)

When the bullet exits the head it pulls brain matter out with it which forces the head to roll back after all the stuff it pulls out has left the head.

Hmm, now I write it out it doesn't appear to make any sense. But it seemed reasonable when it was explained to me :confused:
[NS]The-Republic
08-01-2006, 03:11
I think it's pretty obvious: JFK orchestrated the whole thing himself. He was tired of being president, and he faked his own death to get out of it. I bet he's chilling on a beach somewhere laughing at all of us.
Ravenshrike
08-01-2006, 03:22
(Not sure if this is true or not, but this is how it was explained to me, and not having a rifle or a human head available I haven't been able to test it.)

When the bullet exits the head it pulls brain matter out with it which forces the head to roll back after all the stuff it pulls out has left the head.

Hmm, now I write it out it doesn't appear to make any sense. But it seemed reasonable when it was explained to me :confused:
Um, I suppose that it's the same theory of a rocket engine, but it's not a closed system. However, if that were true a lot more snipers would have noticed this phenomenon as it would occur in most cases, assuming it works along the same principles. Instead you have quite a few combat vets questioning the fact that his head moved backwards.
Universal Science
08-01-2006, 03:34
Now where did I put my tinfoil hat....
Ravenshrike
08-01-2006, 03:37
Now where did I put my tinfoil hat....
In all honesty, questioning the validity of the Warren report really isn't a tinfoil-hat subject. Now, as to some of the explanations as to the reality of the JFK assasination, those can get deep into tinfoil hat territory.
DrunkenDove
08-01-2006, 03:40
Now where did I put my tinfoil hat....

The goverment took it.
Kroisistan
08-01-2006, 04:00
I believe his Brain spontaneously exploded.

It's just one of those things that happen at inopportune times.

The No-Bullet Theory.:D