NationStates Jolt Archive

Through all these theories/religions about God, it is widely accepted that the creator of the universe is an omnipotent light-sided being. It is also widely accepted that defiance of this God sends the defiant to hell where he will suffer.

Now take christianity for example: God created us and he is good. Satan fell to the dark side and now attempts to tempt us with evil thoughts. Couldn't it be the other way around?

(for lack of confusion, I'll retain "God" as the good one and "Satan as the bad one)
Satan created us and he is evil. God thought that Satan is too evil and tyrannical, so he betrayed Satan and now tempts us with good thoughts.
Why can't it be this way?

Why does the creator of our universe have any morality at all. If we have no evidence that he has either morality (or evidence for both), then shouldn't we settle on the default setting of neutral morality?

Also, back to the assumption that God is good and Satan is bad. If we follow God and be good, we go to heaven and experience happiness and mainly good emotions.

If we do bad things we go to hell where we suffer. Why couldn't it be that we go to hell and experience evil emotions that bring us happiness. Where experiencing comfort and friendship would give you happiness in heaven, because that's what kind of person you are and what you enjoy, then why not experience anger and evil satisfaction in hell, because that's the kind of person you are and what you enjoy?

God rewards you for following him, so why wouldn't Satan reward you as well? I'm thinking Satan does reward you (if he doesn't then he's really stupid: join me and I'll punish you, join my opponent and you will be rewarded) and God is just trying to give him bad PR.

Just a few thoughts.

Satan created us and he is evil. God thought that Satan is too evil and tyrannical, so he betrayed Satan and now tempts us with good thoughts.
Why can't it be this way?


how many times have you been tempted with "good" thoughts?

Because religion is inherently flawed in the sense that it does not have any proof whatsoever.

how many times have you been tempted with "good" thoughts?
Constantly. You just don't realize it.

Constantly. You just don't realize it.

apparently... i havent been tempted to do a good thing in a long time...

Because religion is inherently flawed in the sense that it does not have any proof whatsoever.

it provides better explanations as to why we're here than evolution does...

it provides better explanations as to why we're here than evolution does...

Just like "magic" can explain to a little kid why what happened happened?

it provides better explanations as to why we're here than evolution does...

LOL

You're kidding, right?

Because religion is inherently flawed in the sense that it does not have any proof whatsoever.

That's not a flaw, that's a logical necessity.
Proof nullifies faith, and without faith religion is nothing.

Besides, what sort of proof are you talking about? Physical? Scientific? We *do* have physical proofs of religion in the world today. As for a scientific explaination of changing water to wine, I'll take up that one when there is a cure for the common cold or explain what was around before the big bang. Or any number of other questions.

Science and religion are two different paths towards enlightenment.

how many times have you been tempted with "good" thoughts?

Maybe not me, because I (presume) am of good morality, so I would be tempted with bad thoughts. However, I'm sure for those of bad morality they are tempted with good thoughts.

Because religion is inherently flawed in the sense that it does not have any proof whatsoever.

Lack of proof does not make an allegation untrue. It just makes it unbelievable.

Besides, proof of anything is impossible. Evidence, however, is not.

I would suggest reading The "March to" series by David Weber & John Ringo (Baen Books).

One of the main characters is a "Satanist". Truns out she is a "Satanist" because her planet went through a major Religion War. The opposing (and evil) "God" Theocracy declared the other side to be alligned with "Satan", so they said "Why Not?" and ran with it, declaring "God" to be evil and "Satan" to be good.

Interesting look at the Good/Evil paradigm

it provides better explanations as to why we're here than evolution does...

Religion dodges the explanation and hope you do not notice. Evolution states a purpose is not necessary. How is one better than the other in this respect ?

LOL

You're kidding, right?


not at all... if you can %100 prove evolution, go right ahead... (and, btw, i know that i can't PROVE that God is real and created us and stuff, so don't bring that shit into the ring)

not at all... if you can %100 prove evolution, go right ahead...

You can't 100% prove anything to anyone. You can prove only one thing and only to yourself, your own existence.

Religion dodges the explanation and hope you do not notice. Evolution states a purpose is not necessary. How is one better than the other in this respect ?

eh... dodges? i seem to recall the first verse couple of chapters in the Bible describing how we got here...

Religion dodges the explanation and hope you do not notice. Evolution states a purpose is not necessary. How is one better than the other in this respect ?

Evolution states no such thing. The Theory of Evolution makes no statement on the idea of an all-encompassing "purpose" at all. Unless science suddenly became philosophy while I was making some tea.

Hell can't be good. One gets tired of weeping and gnashing one's teeth after a while.

When you consider the type of people that end up in hell according to christianity, one would have to think it would just be a giant party :-) But from the first post, yes, I think it could be the other way around. Since religion has no proof, Lucifer could've written the bible or whatever... It could of been written to divide humanity and cause us all to try and slaughter everyone else over a different belief of the guy in the clouds....

eh... dodges? i seem to recall the first verse couple of chapters in the Bible describing how we got here...

That just passes on the "how" question on to God. How did God get there ? Why did he create us ? How did he create us ? Why does God exist ? Why... etc.
So instead of one question which may one day be answerable, you now have a load of unanswerable questions (God is beyond our understanding) without really giving an answer at all.

Evolution states no such thing. The Theory of Evolution makes no statement on the idea of an all-encompassing "purpose" at all. Unless science suddenly became philosophy while I was making some tea.

Let me rephrase my statement: evolution does not require there to be a purpose. It indeed makes no claim about there being one or not.

Let me rephrase my statement: evolution does not require there to be a purpose. It indeed makes no claim about there being one or not.

Of course not. It's a scientific theory, and that kind of question is beyond the scope of modern science. I suppose you could philosophically Ockham's Razor it. That does become so tiresome, though.

how many times have you been tempted with "good" thoughts?

All the time...somehow, though, I almost always manage to resist. :D

Even if Satan did offer you rewards, you would never know what to expect. He's the Father of Lies.

Besides, for everyone he tortures for at least 2000 years, he gets an entry into the corporate vacation pool. You really think he'll go easy on you when there's a trip to Barbados at stake?!? :p

According to personal experience God /has/ to be evil, or at least neurtral in the Grand scheme of things. God is in control of everything that is not part of human free will because he is all powerful. As the creator and guider of disease, hunger, need, hurricanes, and earthquakes it is obvious that he murders people all the time. Unless we are willing to say that murder and pointless suffering are just dandy we have to admit that God is either an evil God or an indifferent one.

As for Satan, he can't possibly exist unless you're willing to say he is also all powerful. By definition there can exist no lesser being whose sole perpose is to defy the will of an all powerful being. If God is all powerful and Satan is not Satan would be gone in an instant. Besides, why would God create satan in the first place if he knew (with his infinite wisdom) that he would rebel.

According to personal experience God /has/ to be evil, or at least neurtral in the Grand scheme of things. God is in control of everything that is not part of human free will because he is all powerful. As the creator and guider of disease, hunger, need, hurricanes, and earthquakes it is obvious that he murders people all the time. Unless we are willing to say that murder and pointless suffering are just dandy we have to admit that God is either an evil God or an indifferent one.

As for Satan, he can't possibly exist unless you're willing to say he is also all powerful. By definition there can exist no lesser being whose sole perpose is to defy the will of an all powerful being. If God is all powerful and Satan is not Satan would be gone in an instant. Besides, why would God create satan in the first place if he knew (with his infinite wisdom) that he would rebel.

If there was no threat of punishment for what we do on this planet... then I think a vast majority IMHO would kill, maim, ect...

Satan can't be all bad. No one has ever marched off to war in the name of the devil.

If there was no threat of punishment for what we do on this planet... then I think a vast majority IMHO would kill, maim, ect...

But if god maims and kills people all the time (innocent and sinner alike) then what right does he have to punish -us- for doing it? Hypocrit.

But if god maims and kills people all the time (innocent and sinner alike) then what right does he have to punish -us- for doing it? Hypocrit.


Personally; given the radical right in the US... I always thought God was a prick... Punishing us for being tolerant with hurricanes and a terrorist attack...

how many times have you been tempted with "good" thoughts?
in the summertime when its 105 degrees out at 2pm and the sun is blazing down on some poor old lady who seems to be taking a bag of groceries back to one of the motels in town, i am tempted to stop and give her a ride.

but i just drive on and tell myself that the urge means im a good person at heart.

It's ridiculous how people always say God is punishing "us" for blah blah. God doesn't really care who you are or what you do. Did Hurrican Katrina just kill poor sinful people? No, I'm sure it murdered a perfectly innocent person of every denomination (including countless children). If you don't die arbitrarily in some divinely guided massacre then you'll just succumb to the great heavely "up-yours!" of sickness and old age.

Evolution: is Creation by chance, so this is what I'm asking, how could Evolution create something that could surpass all other creatures, and that would come to dominate this planet(actually the Planet is still not in our hands until we unite) divided we shall fall, besides, how many people are tempted by good thoughts?

the evil is something we must always perservere against it, we must not fall victim to it, but of course, we are not perfect, many of us have fallen victim to it(take Hitler for example) he fell victim to the evil.


I have been tempted many times but I reject them(simply because I'm one of those people that cannot and will not allow evil thoughts to flow into my mind)

in the summertime when its 105 degrees out at 2pm and the sun is blazing down on some poor old lady who seems to be taking a bag of groceries back to one of the motels in town, i am tempted to stop and give her a ride.

but i just drive on and tell myself that the urge means im a good person at heart.


Jeeze what a prick. You aren't good or bad based on "feelings". Those are just a rush of sympathy endorphins making neurons fire based on evolutionary hardwiring. You can only be called good and bad based on your -actions-. You're actually the worst kind of jerk becasue you know what's right and you didn't do jack about it.

Through all these theories/religions about God, it is widely accepted that the creator of the universe is an omnipotent light-sided being. It is also widely accepted that defiance of this God sends the defiant to hell where he will suffer.

Now take christianity for example: God created us and he is good. Satan fell to the dark side and now attempts to tempt us with evil thoughts. Couldn't it be the other way around?

(for lack of confusion, I'll retain "God" as the good one and "Satan as the bad one)
Satan created us and he is evil. God thought that Satan is too evil and tyrannical, so he betrayed Satan and now tempts us with good thoughts.
Why can't it be this way?

Why does the creator of our universe have any morality at all. If we have no evidence that he has either morality (or evidence for both), then shouldn't we settle on the default setting of neutral morality?

Also, back to the assumption that God is good and Satan is bad. If we follow God and be good, we go to heaven and experience happiness and mainly good emotions.

If we do bad things we go to hell where we suffer. Why couldn't it be that we go to hell and experience evil emotions that bring us happiness. Where experiencing comfort and friendship would give you happiness in heaven, because that's what kind of person you are and what you enjoy, then why not experience anger and evil satisfaction in hell, because that's the kind of person you are and what you enjoy?

God rewards you for following him, so why wouldn't Satan reward you as well? I'm thinking Satan does reward you (if he doesn't then he's really stupid: join me and I'll punish you, join my opponent and you will be rewarded) and God is just trying to give him bad PR.

Just a few thoughts.

It's possible but I don't beleive in Satan so I won't worry about it.

Evolution: is Creation by chance, so this is what I'm asking, how could Evolution create something that could surpass all other creatures, and that would come to dominate this planet

Funny. I'm sure the dinosaurs said the same thing about their domination of the planet. You talk about time like it was all building up toward the culmination of humanity, but in reality we're just another step in the ladder. Sure we're well adapted for the time being, but so is influenza and mosquito's. Influenza would think we're ridiculous as a species, we can't even properly inject our genetic information into the cells of another orgainsm!

I'm just trying to say that we're all animals and we all have our own purpose. It's arrgant and presumptuous to think there's anything special about humans.



It's also funny how you talk about evil as a force outside yourself. I think you're taking the whole cognitive dissonance thing too far. Inncorrect actions are a part of who you are. Sometimes you're feeling depressed, are inhibited by substances, don't have all the right information, or do something bad just for the heck of it (you know you have). There's nothing wrong with that. You're the only one who can define your morality minute by minute, and morality is always changing. The first thing you have to admit that "evil" is something inside of you. You can't change that.

not at all... if you can %100 prove evolution, go right ahead... (and, btw, i know that i can't PROVE that God is real and created us and stuff, so don't bring that shit into the ring)


Uhh, you just DID bring that shit into the ring.

it provides better explanations as to why we're here than evolution does...

Yes, because the sky king filled us with his magic life-essence. :)

the evil is something we must always perservere against it, we must not fall victim to it, but of course, we are not perfect, many of us have fallen victim to it(take Hitler for example) he fell victim to the evil.


I have been tempted many times but I reject them(simply because I'm one of those people that cannot and will not allow evil thoughts to flow into my mind)

This is exactly my point.

Why must we persevere against it? How do you know that God doesn't actually want us to be evil, and it's a fallen angel that keeps tempting us with "good" thoughts?

How do you know that you're instead falling constantly to the temptation of good thoughts?

Jeeze what a prick. You aren't good or bad based on "feelings". Those are just a rush of sympathy endorphins making neurons fire based on evolutionary hardwiring. You can only be called good and bad based on your -actions-. You're actually the worst kind of jerk becasue you know what's right and you didn't do jack about it.
thats kinda harsh isnt it? am i more of a prick than the other 100 people who pass her by without so much of a thought?

its not like she was hitching. i just was tempted by a good thought.

when was the last time YOU did a good turn for a stranger?

Because God defeated Satan in the celestial battle, thats why Satan was cast down. Man worships power, and his truths are set before him by the victor in cultural, or brutish wars. If Satan had won the battle, we would be worshiping Satan, simply because man is influenced heavily by victors and the mass majority of people worship power. (Said majority, because there is a small minority of religious people that worship satan or other evil dieties.)

Through all these theories/religions about God, it is widely accepted that the creator of the universe is an omnipotent light-sided being. It is also widely accepted that defiance of this God sends the defiant to hell where he will suffer.

It is not universal that God (supreme being) is good. Anyone who truly
believes that doing "evil deeds" (in conventional terms) is what God wants
them to do follows "God the Evil", who, they believe, will reward them
with "something",.. be it an afterlife in paradise or a worldly "favor".

Such people are commonly called psychotic sociopaths.


Now take christianity for example: God created us and he is good. Satan fell to the dark side and now attempts to tempt us with evil thoughts. Couldn't it be the other way around?

To a psychotic sociopath it is exactly as you describe. If to do "evil deeds" is
to please God, then to be tempted NOT to do evil is the temptation to be
fought.

To have to WAIT to do evil, for example to immediately kill someone who's
skin color offends him because he would be instantly apprehended, is "giving
in" to the temptation of "not doing the RIGHT THING at all times as God
commands".


(for lack of confusion, I'll retain "God" as the good one and "Satan as the bad one)
Satan created us and he is evil. God thought that Satan is too evil and tyrannical, so he betrayed Satan and now tempts us with good thoughts.
Why can't it be this way?

Why does the creator of our universe have any morality at all. If we have no evidence that he has either morality (or evidence for both), then shouldn't we settle on the default setting of neutral morality?

Describe "neutral morality"..? :)


Also, back to the assumption that God is good and Satan is bad. If we follow God and be good, we go to heaven and experience happiness and mainly good emotions.

If we do bad things we go to hell where we suffer. Why couldn't it be that we go to hell and experience evil emotions that bring us happiness. Where experiencing comfort and friendship would give you happiness in heaven, because that's what kind of person you are and what you enjoy, then why not experience anger and evil satisfaction in hell, because that's the kind of person you are and what you enjoy?

Non-satisfaction is the definition of "The Bad Place (aka Hell)" regardless of
whether God is good or evil.

If you recieve a reward, which by definition is "satisfying", then
you've "obeyed" your God, whichever version of God that may be.


God rewards you for following him, so why wouldn't Satan reward you as well? I'm thinking Satan does reward you (if he doesn't then he's really stupid: join me and I'll punish you, join my opponent and you will be rewarded) and God is just trying to give him bad PR.

Just a few thoughts.

Your problem is that you invoke "Satan" and not an evil "God".

Satan, by definition, is "the adversary of what is good". Even if you are a
psychotic sociopath, Satan is "the bad guy". God is your "good guy", but your
definition of "good" is what the rest of us kow as "evil".

Satan tempts you with "doing it the easy way". God says "do it the right
way".

For our trusty psychotic sociopath, following his God without giving-in to
temptation would get him a killed/encarcerated very very quickly, but he'd
feel utterly righteous and looking forward to his earned reward.

For him, not "doing it exactly as God wishes" gets him a demerit, and possible
asignment to "hell".


-Iakeo

Maybe it is actually good; (some of) the behavior that gets you in to hell is a lot more fun than the stuff that gets you in to heaven. Perhaps it's not coincidental that images of Satan portrayed him as a satyr.

how many times have you been tempted with "good" thoughts?

Have you ever had a friend who decieded to wear something so ugly looking you just want to tell them to wear something else but you don't? You ever walk down a street, see a homeless person and think to yourself that you should give them some money but keep walking? Your tempted by good thoughts every day.

Originally Posted by Gray Army
the evil is something we must always perservere against it, we must not fall victim to it, but of course, we are not perfect, many of us have fallen victim to it(take Hitler for example) he fell victim to the evil.


I have been tempted many times but I reject them(simply because I'm one of those people that cannot and will not allow evil thoughts to flow into my mind)


This is exactly my point.

Why must we persevere against it? How do you know that God doesn't actually want us to be evil, and it's a fallen angel that keeps tempting us with "good" thoughts?

Why would anyone want to serve an underling, when he knows that this
underling he's serving will ALWAYS lose to his boss (God)?

If one truly believes that evil is good and good is evil, then GOD (not one of
his servants) is his master and commands him to do evil.

This is the idiocy of so-called Satanists! If they describe their "master" as a
servant of God (as is the DEFINITION of Satan) then they CAN NOT WIN, and
are either stupid beyond belief, or actually (and sociopathologically) believe
that God is evil and bids them to do evil.


How do you know that you're instead falling constantly to the temptation of good thoughts?

You ARE falling constantly to the temptation of good (thoughts)..!

All acts engender a reward. The temptation of "good" is to be rewarded by
being in sync with your God.

The temptation of "evil" is to be rewarded by being out of sync with your God.

-Iakeo

Ah, I think I'm starting to understand now...

Through all these theories/religions about God, it is widely accepted that the creator of the universe is an omnipotent light-sided being. It is also widely accepted that defiance of this God sends the defiant to hell where he will suffer.I like this premise. The concept of humanity being created by someone or something for the purpose of torturing us is intriguing. And naturally there might be another similar being who is against this, and would be viewed by the creator as the "bad" one. (This isn't what you ultimately said, though.)

it provides better explanations as to why we're here than evolution does...I tend to agree with you on purely subjective reasons...though your subsequent explanation isn't something that I agree with.

Because the Christians say so; and we should at least act like we care about what they're saying.

J.O.B., a Comedy of Justice, by Robert A. Heinlein does address this - Satan is portrayed is a tolerant, flexible, kindly individual who loves his wife and kids and is kind to strangers. God is portrayed as a bigoted, inflexible, selfish, domineering old fart who wants all the toys and can't be bothered to see anyone's point of view but his own. Works for me.

Why can't apples be oranges and grapes be bananas?

If heaven were bad it would be called hell and hell were good it would be called heaven...

My logic is irrefutable! :D

1. An Evil God could not have created the world because Pure Evil is Insanity. Evil is Insane because all evil acts are done with a purpose; People steal because they wat to be richer, people lie becuase they want to aviod punishment or gain something,etc, So a man who does Evil with no purpose behind his actions is called insane, You can be good for the sake of being good but not evil for the sake of evil.
An Evil God could not make a logical world sense he is Insane so therfore a Evil God can be thrown out of the picture. And even without that he can be thrown out for another reason, Evil is a Parasite of Good. . There is no truly Evil thing just Good perverted, like the following: lying: a perversion of the Truth, stealing: a perversion of Honestly earning things, and Murder: a perversion of the honoring of life.. As many evil things as you can find in this world we begin to notice that all of them have the exact same thing in common that they all originate from good there is nothing Evil that did not come from Good. Since that is true it must be true that there is no man who actually enjoys Evil for just Evil, he will always have ulterior motives or he will do it for the pleasure it imparts but there is no man who will commit an evil act for the sake of it being Evil. Take Adolph Hitler for an example he did not start a war for the sake of starting a war and committing atrocities. He had an agenda other than committing evil he wanted vengeance for what was done to Germany in World War One. Another example is an adulterer he does not have an affair simply because it is evil, he commits adultery because he likes pleasure or out of spite for his wife. All these people that commit acts of Evil are just pursuing good the wrong way; power is a perfectly fine thing to have, but if you have to kill and bribe for it then that is where you become Evil instead of Good. The same goes with money, love, and anything else good in the world; if we pursue it in the wrong ways we are being Evil. Therefore since Evil is a parasite it cannot survive without a host. Since Good is Evil’s host, Evil must have Good to survive in the world because if Good .
Therfore Evil cannot truimph and Evil cannot create world evil can only inhabit them. Therefore God cannot be called Evil. Good has to exist before Evil.

Morals are subjective...
We learn what is good and what is bad through society, suppressing our ego which is in turn dictated by our experiences. What is seen as good in one society is seen as bad in another. The death penalty is a good example of this. There are many countries and billions of people who view the death penalty as immoral because it takes away a persons life. However there are also billions of people who believe it is moral because it protects innocent people from harm to the extent that it is worth the possibility of a mistaken trial.

When we see the world we can describe it as Good or Evil, Moral or Immoral. Our experience and upbringing teaches us what to call "good" and what to call "bad". They are part of our subjective reality. We could not all agree on an objective moral, and nor would it be objective if we could.

Objective morality is impossible. It has been said by some that God decides on an absolute level what is Good or Bad. It does not matter. God and morals are irrelevant and distant from one another. If God says something is an absolute Good, then so what? Every single person will interpret that moral differently, according to their understanding, and no two people would come up with exactly the same concept. It is impossible to communicate the exact same thought pattern onto everyone, it is impossible to dictate an absolute moral. Even if we could then every individual would not necessarily agree that the statement was moral, once again, due to their individual and unique experience of reality everyone still has to choose whether he or she agrees whether it is good or not. Even if there were objective morals, it would impossible to view them objectively. Within the scope of Human experience, objective morals do not exist.

Satan represents Doubt. God did not want Adam and Eve to eat of the Tree of Good and Evil. Allah did not want his creation to doubt his word. In both theologies, it was Satan, the most intelligent created being, who stood up against this enforced ignorance. Satan tells mankind: Search for knowledge, even in taboo places. Shaitan told the Djinn: Let us test God's word, let us not mindlessly believe all that God says. Although these myths are irrelevant to the modern world, the role of Satan is very much relevant to our lives and our search for knowledge. Enlightenment is the ability to look past stated truth and dogma, and Lucifer is the Crown Prince of Satan that represents our search for enlightenment.

Of those that are sure they are right, the scientists and the religionists, the scientists at least, as part of their rules of behavior, continuously test and refine their knowledge: Nothing is assumed to be true. Everything is tested, old theories are constantly re-tested whenever new knowledge comes to light. But religious fundamentalists and those who simply accept what is told to them, by a preacher or a book, these are unable to find truth or enlightenment. All they find is what they wanted: To feel sure that they're right, after all. To be safe in their knowledge. To be blissfully ignorant of doubt is an easy way out, a self failure. Satan and the curiosity and doubt he instils upon us is certainly the enemy of fundamentalism.

~Satanic Reverend Medivh~

Maybe not me, because I (presume) am of good morality, so I would be tempted with bad thoughts. However, I'm sure for those of bad morality they are tempted with good thoughts.
I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know if this has been pointed out yet, but... "morality" means what you call "a good morality", and "a bad morality" is actually no morality.

Morals are subjective...

We learn what is good and what is bad through society, suppressing our ego which is in turn dictated by our experiences. What is seen as good in one society is seen as bad in another. The death penalty is a good example of this. There are many countries and billions of people who view the death penalty as immoral because it takes away a persons life. However there are also billions of people who believe it is moral because it protects innocent people from harm to the extent that it is worth the possibility of a mistaken trial.

When we see the world we can describe it as Good or Evil, Moral or Immoral. Our experience and upbringing teaches us what to call "good" and what to call "bad". They are part of our subjective reality. We could not all agree on an objective moral, and nor would it be objective if we could.

Objective morality is impossible. It has been said by some that God decides on an absolute level what is Good or Bad. It does not matter. God and morals are irrelevant and distant from one another. If God says something is an absolute Good, then so what? Every single person will interpret that moral differently, according to their understanding, and no two people would come up with exactly the same concept. It is impossible to communicate the exact same thought pattern onto everyone, it is impossible to dictate an absolute moral. Even if we could then every individual would not necessarily agree that the statement was moral, once again, due to their individual and unique experience of reality everyone still has to choose whether he or she agrees whether it is good or not. Even if there were objective morals, it would impossible to view them objectively. Within the scope of Human experience, objective morals do not exist.

Satan represents Doubt. God did not want Adam and Eve to eat of the Tree of Good and Evil. Allah did not want his creation to doubt his word. In both theologies, it was Satan, the most intelligent created being, who stood up against this enforced ignorance. Satan tells mankind: Search for knowledge, even in taboo places. Shaitan told the Djinn: Let us test God's word, let us not mindlessly believe all that God says. Although these myths are irrelevant to the modern world, the role of Satan is very much relevant to our lives and our search for knowledge. Enlightenment is the ability to look past stated truth and dogma, and Lucifer is the Crown Prince of Satan that represents our search for enlightenment.

Of those that are sure they are right, the scientists and the religionists, the scientists at least, as part of their rules of behavior, continuously test and refine their knowledge: Nothing is assumed to be true. Everything is tested, old theories are constantly re-tested whenever new knowledge comes to light. But religious fundamentalists and those who simply accept what is told to them, by a preacher or a book, these are unable to find truth or enlightenment. All they find is what they wanted: To feel sure that they're right, after all. To be safe in their knowledge. To be blissfully ignorant of doubt is an easy way out, a self failure. Satan and the curiosity and doubt he instils upon us is certainly the enemy of fundamentalism.

~Satanic Reverend Medivh~

God created Satan for a specific purpose. To tempt.

Satanists revere a servant. Satan.

Can Satan ever "win" anything? No. He will always be trumped by his boss.

Why would anyone make a master of a servant that can not win?

They do so for one of two reasons:
1) They are masochistic morons who don't understand that their efforts will
ALWAYS come to a bad end.
2) They are (rather sadistic) satirists of the self righteous fools who are
content with accepting silliness and ludicrous teachings from "goofy god
worshippers".

Group number two tends to control, for their amusement, group number one.

If you like being taught by satirical sadists, join in the destructive and
debilitating "fun" by becoming a Satanist Neophyte.

If you like teaching moronic juveniles negative lessons by sadistic satire and
humiliation, become a perveyor of the tactics of a legitimate servant of god,
Satan.

If you're not into sadism, masochism, or being a moron stay away from
Satanists,.. as they are pathetic servants of a pathetic servant.

I do agree, though, that sheep-like followers of nonsense should be laughed
at and shown the error of their ways. Just not via the tactics of that
miserable servant of god's.

-Iakeo

I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know if this has been pointed out yet, but... "morality" means what you call "a good morality", and "a bad morality" is actually no morality.

Good to see you Wills..!! :)

I must disagree with you on this one. There is no such thing as "no morality".

Amorality does not exist in the real world, except in the realm of the non-
living.

Morality is merely "choice". To act morally is to "make a choice".

All acts are choices, therefore they are always moral acts.

Not having a "coherent" set of morals is the choice (a moral act) to not think
about the subject with the intention to construct a "moral code".

Thus not having "morals" (a code) is a moral act (an choice to act in a
particular way), and therefore NOT amorality at all.

If a storm kills me, that is an amoral act, as the storm had no choice to do so.

But only the non-living have no choices.

-Iakeo

There is a saying, "by their fruits shall ye know them." Seems to me the fruits of Christianity (and, for that matter, Islam and Judaism) have been genocide, terrorism, intolerance, slavery, bigotry, racism, sexism, ad nauseam.

When I read the Bible I note that God behaves like a small boy taking dares (Job), a teenager who says "you can't be my friend if your that person's friend." A parent playing favorites for no discernible reason (prodigal son - one son takes his inheritance, wastes it and comes home begging. The faithful son gets even what he has taken from him to reward the prodigal for coming back). I note that God rewards genocide (lets kill all the Phillistines, even the women and children - for no other reason than they are not us). I don't think I like God very much. In point of fact, based on his track record, I would say he's pretty much - evil.

This is not to say that I have no belief in deity - I just haven't much use for the Judeo-Christian version.

Jeeze what a prick. You aren't good or bad based on "feelings". Those are just a rush of sympathy endorphins making neurons fire based on evolutionary hardwiring. You can only be called good and bad based on your -actions-. You're actually the worst kind of jerk becasue you know what's right and you didn't do jack about it.
You aren't good or bad based on actions, either, but on your will.

1. An Evil God could not have created the world because Pure Evil is Insanity. Evil is Insane because all evil acts are done with a purpose; People steal because they wat to be richer, people lie becuase they want to aviod punishment or gain something,etc, So a man who does Evil with no purpose behind his actions is called insane, You can be good for the sake of being good but not evil for the sake of evil.
An Evil God could not make a logical world sense he is Insane so therfore a Evil God can be thrown out of the picture. And even without that he can be thrown out for another reason, Evil is a Parasite of Good. . There is no truly Evil thing just Good perverted, like the following: lying: a perversion of the Truth, stealing: a perversion of Honestly earning things, and Murder: a perversion of the honoring of life.. As many evil things as you can find in this world we begin to notice that all of them have the exact same thing in common that they all originate from good there is nothing Evil that did not come from Good. Since that is true it must be true that there is no man who actually enjoys Evil for just Evil, he will always have ulterior motives or he will do it for the pleasure it imparts but there is no man who will commit an evil act for the sake of it being Evil. Take Adolph Hitler for an example he did not start a war for the sake of starting a war and committing atrocities. He had an agenda other than committing evil he wanted vengeance for what was done to Germany in World War One. Another example is an adulterer he does not have an affair simply because it is evil, he commits adultery because he likes pleasure or out of spite for his wife. All these people that commit acts of Evil are just pursuing good the wrong way; power is a perfectly fine thing to have, but if you have to kill and bribe for it then that is where you become Evil instead of Good. The same goes with money, love, and anything else good in the world; if we pursue it in the wrong ways we are being Evil. Therefore since Evil is a parasite it cannot survive without a host. Since Good is Evil’s host, Evil must have Good to survive in the world because if Good .
Therfore Evil cannot truimph and Evil cannot create world evil can only inhabit them. Therefore God cannot be called Evil. Good has to exist before Evil.

Precisely.

Satan is God's servant. Satan is a creation of God.

Did God have a choice of NOT creating Satan?

No. Why? Because evil is inherent in all things in the world,.. and it is inherent
in that all things can be perverted in use toward "evil ends".

But what is the only "tool" of Satan? An intention to some evil end, which is
not the provence of the non-living.

Thus,.. Satan has no power but through the living, and has no existence in
the non-living world.

The non-living world is the place to look for unadulterated "good". Look there
for your inspiration, not into the pervertable "souls" of the living.

-Iakeo

There is a saying, "by their fruits shall ye know them." Seems to me the fruits of Christianity (and, for that matter, Islam and Judaism) have been genocide, terrorism, intolerance, slavery, bigotry, racism, sexism, ad nauseam.

When I read the Bible I note that God behaves like a small boy taking dares (Job), a teenager who says "you can't be my friend if your that person's friend." A parent playing favorites for no discernible reason (prodigal son - one son takes his inheritance, wastes it and comes home begging. The faithful son gets even what he has taken from him to reward the prodigal for coming back). I note that God rewards genocide (lets kill all the Phillistines, even the women and children - for no other reason than they are not us). I don't think I like God very much. In point of fact, based on his track record, I would say he's pretty much - evil.

This is not to say that I have no belief in deity - I just haven't much use for the Judeo-Christian version.

Sounds like you have some pretty decent beliefs. That means you have a
good religion.

If the God of your religion says doing those things, as described in that book
and interpreted by you, are not good examples of moral behavior, then that
book has "taught" you well.

If you want to understand why the people who wrote those stories in that
book wrote what they did, then you should ask people who might know why
they did that,.. and why it seems to contradict with your beliefs so
profoundly.

But I don't think you think God is, or can be, evil. That is a very sensible
conclusion. :)

-Iakeo

Good to see you Wills..!! :)

I must disagree with you on this one. There is no such thing as "no morality".

Amorality does not exist in the real world, except in the realm of the non-
living.

Morality is merely "choice". To act morally is to "make a choice".

All acts are choices, therefore they are always moral acts.

Not having a "coherent" set of morals is the choice (a moral act) to not think
about the subject with the intention to construct a "moral code".

Thus not having "morals" (a code) is a moral act (an choice to act in a
particular way), and therefore NOT amorality at all.
Well, when you put it that way... :) As always, I love the slant you put to it. Morality is not a term I exercise; I don't think in terms of labelling things good and bad, so most anyone in the world has the better of me on this topic.

Good to see you, too!

If a storm kills me, that is an amoral act, as the storm had no choice to do so.

But only the non-living have no choices.

-Iakeo
I would say rather (in my vernacular) that only those who exercise will could do "moral acts" (as you've defined this), and that said storm has no will. Will is reflected in the choice.

Cool; thanks.

Oh WOW. So mant things to say. So many half baked ideas to address, and so much swiss cheese logic to correct. Alas, I am tired, and the night is getting shorter, so let me start with only one:

Someone played the whole "no one has fought war in the devils name" card earlier in the thread.

So, using your logic, let me ask you this: If I were to kill my entire family right now, then walk out of my house and go on a killing/raping spree while flying a flag with your name on it, would that make you evil? And does it make me good simply because no one has ever done anything bad and claimed it was an order from me?

Obviously not. Don't blame God because people do stupid things 'in his name'.

I would like to say this: Most of what I have read so far in this thread is either incorrect or illogical. One mistake, as a very quick and dirty example, is when Anti-Social Darwinism #54 said made this comment: There is a saying, "by their fruits shall ye know them." Seems to me the fruits of Christianity (and, for that matter, Islam and Judaism) have been genocide, terrorism, intolerance, slavery, bigotry, racism, sexism, ad nauseam.. Take no offense at me pointing you out here, however, I would like to say that A. You are right when you said that we are known by our fruits. You did an excellent job in pointing out that men are fairly screwed up, make a lot of bad decisions, and do all of the things that you pointed out. I don't, however, see where that reflects on God. It needs said that, while christians are doing all of the things that you listed, so is everyone else. The only thing that you have managed to point out is that christians are no better than everyone else. I agree. How that proves that God is evil, I can't grasp.

I haven't taken the time to properly address the issue above. Most of you will be very quick to point out that Anti-Social Darwinism #54 mentioned several Biblical stories in his second paragraph that were intended to drive his point home. All he really managed to do is point out that he A. Didn't properly segregate biblical historical stories from biblical parables and B. Seems to have totally missed the boat on what was the point of the recorded history was, or what the parible was trying to teach.

I would love, more than anything, to continue this conversation with anyone that wants to. I am, if you must have a label, a Christian. I am however (how many times have I used that word now?) a very frusterated one. The main problem with Christianity is that it is totally based on Faith. An issue of Faith, by a mortal definition, can not be proven or disproven. It's not a problem[\i} really. It's just that so many of us simply must have tangible proof. In our quest for this, we chose to look at other christians instead of to God. A person with questions looks at Churches, they look at history, and they look to the news. What they see is a whole lot of messed up people doing messed up things. Its natural that they assign these quailities to God. Erroneous, but natural. Sorry folks. Christians are not good people. They are simple people that are willing to accept the ABC's (thats not a vauge referance. There really is an ABC's to christianity. Just ask, I'll fill you in.). That doesnt make them pure. Just trying... for the most part.

Anyway, I extend my invitation for lively debate and conversation on the topic of God, Satan, and Christianity to anyone who wants. I would like to do it privatley simple because I am not a big fan of forums. Too many conversations all going on at the same time. Before you have even finished explaining your first thought, 100 people have spoken in between, and twised your answers before you could get the whole thing out. If anyone thinks that I am hiding behind my request for privacy, I offer you this: I would love to post all of the correspondanse in the forum for everyone to read and pick apart, once its completed.

I can't offer you 'proof' that God exists. I can't reason with you and cause you to believe. I won't even try. All I am offering is the opportunity to show you things the way they realy are. Correct bad logic, explain biblical teachings and events, and hopefully, learn a few things myself. I truly hope that some of you respond. For this reason only: there [i]is a place after here. And I would be very, very sad to see anyone show up there and miss out on Heaven simply because they were chocked full of bad logic and ideas. Heaven isnt a reward per se, and Hell isnt a punishment. That too is erroneous thinking. How sad it would be to learn that truth when its too late. You can only get there with faith, so once you are there, and can touch and feel it, it's no longer an issue of faith. You have already made your decision. Think it through before you get there. I would love to help you.

Is anything truely good or evil? At the beginning assuming you start with 1 being that being is niether good nor evil since there is nothing in creation to compare it to. Nothing can be more good or less evil if there is no comparison. Based on this the act of creating a second being weither by the first or not is also a neutral act since before the being comes into exsistance there is no comparision. At the point you have 2 being until something happens everything is in balance and neutral. The moment 1 of the 2 beings does something weither it be in action or tought a morality is formed. Therefore good can not exsist before evil and evil can not before good; they are not mutually excusive.

To assume creation is an act of good is ignorant because the morality behind the action of creation can be good although the result is not. example creating a form of medicine: medicine cures illiness. This is seen as good since it ends suffering. Medicine also leads to immunity of bacteria which can result in more dangerous stains. This action is good the result is bad or atleast counter productive. Thus the act of creation can not be seen as purely good or evil.

We assume that creation is a positive thing because if it were negitive we would be a mistake. As a matter of self-perservation we require some level of self-confidence so we assume we are created either with a purpose or as an improvement on previous creations. Regilion or Evolution as it were.

I am not trying to place by vote in one corner or the other but the fact or the matter is that until you have comparison good or evil can not exsist by there own definition. Now the definition of good or evil changes based on your position, morality, faith and other variables. In regilious circles good is generally seen as action which follow there gods teachings or benifit there faith. In non regilious circles is can be seen as pleasing, or acceptible or morally correct. Evil is merely the antinom of good in both cases. Not that these definitions are correct or only possiblities merely opinions.

In conclusion you can't have good without evil but you can view something as good after evil is created and if said good created said evil this could be viewed as a plausible arguement. Although until evil is created there is no good so good does not create evil. Good only exsists because of evil. There can never be neutrally unless there is only 1 force again. The assumption that god is good is based on convention of scripture. It is impossible to state the morality of god or anyone else since you can not see there moral thoughts. There actions can be view or researched but these are subject to opinion by your or someone elses morality and argued as such.

...

I would love, more than anything, to continue this conversation with anyone that wants to. I am, if you must have a label, a Christian. I am however (how many times have I used that word now?) a very frusterated one. The main problem with Christianity is that it is totally based on Faith. An issue of Faith, by a mortal definition, can not be proven or disproven.

The main problem with Christianity is that it's practitioners ALWAYS
overcomplicate the issue, whatever the issue may be.

Christianity is about simplification. It is NOT about faith, except that one
must have faith that they are not, and can never totally be, in charge of
things at all times, and must, at some point "give it up (relinquish NOT
surrender)" to God.

Christianity was a natural reaction to a massive complexification of the world
at the time of Christ. The societal "overwhelm" was threatening the very
fabric of what it meant to be human back then.

What was needed was a radical simplification of men's minds. The natural
vehicle for the needed "retraining" was religion.

The monotheists had a leg up on those who weren't monotheistic. One God is
more "simple" than a pantheon.

Eventually monotheism (as christianity, which had divorced itself from racist
bloodline bondage) eventually displaced the chaos that existed in vast parts
of the world.

Why?

Because it is simpler to deal with and frees up huge amounts of time to
be "productive" (which at verious points meant more productive of despotism
and slavery).

But what is the importance of faith? It is only important if it can't be proven
false. If a belief is proven false, then it is simple delusion, and either labels
the believer as insane, OR points to some difference in definition between the
believer and someone who might observe the believer as insane.

Faith points to differing definitions of the world (world views) between
believers and non-believers.

The question is whether the "conversation" about these differing world views
is explored, or whether the believer is labelled insane and burned, or
alternately that the non-believer is labelled insane and burned.


It's not a [i]problem[\i} really. It's just that so many of us simply must have tangible proof.

I have tangible proof of God. But it's only perceivable by me. You'll have to
each find your own tangible proof of what you mean by God.


In our quest for this, we chose to look at other christians instead of to God. A person with questions looks at Churches, they look at history, and they look to the news. What they see is a whole lot of messed up people doing messed up things. Its natural that they assign these quailities to God. Erroneous, but natural. Sorry folks.

God has no quality but God. Thus the usual, and constantly misunderstood,
quality of "ineffability". You simply can not describe the undiscribable.

And ANY assignment of quality to God is non-sensical, and therefore the only
real "blasphemy", because it does nothing but distract from the very point of
God's existence.


Christians are not good people. They are simple people that are willing to accept the ABC's (thats not a vauge referance. There really is an ABC's to christianity. Just ask, I'll fill you in.). That doesnt make them pure. Just trying... for the most part.

They try,.. and they are led astray by the goofy minds of their fellows.

Normal enough,.. but annoying nonetheless.


Anyway, I extend my invitation for lively debate and conversation on the topic of God, Satan, and Christianity to anyone who wants. I would like to do it privatley simple because I am not a big fan of forums. Too many conversations all going on at the same time. Before you have even finished explaining your first thought, 100 people have spoken in between, and twised your answers before you could get the whole thing out. If anyone thinks that I am hiding behind my request for privacy, I offer you this: I would love to post all of the correspondanse in the forum for everyone to read and pick apart, once its completed.

I can't offer you 'proof' that God exists. I can't reason with you and cause you to believe. I won't even try. All I am offering is the opportunity to show you things the way they realy are. Correct bad logic, explain biblical teachings and events, and hopefully, learn a few things myself. I truly hope that some of you respond. For this reason only: there is a place after here. And I would be very, very sad to see anyone show up there and miss out on Heaven simply because they were chocked full of bad logic and ideas. Heaven isnt a reward per se, and Hell isnt a punishment. That too is erroneous thinking. How sad it would be to learn that truth when its too late. You can only get there with faith, so once you are there, and can touch and feel it, it's no longer an issue of faith. You have already made your decision. Think it through before you get there. I would love to help you.

Start a thread.

Sounds like we share many views, arrived at through VERY different journeys.

That's the best kind of confirmation, of course. Indepent discovery from
opposite sides of the universe. :)

-Iakeo

Anyone here read Paradise Lost?

A God who is evil is not God, and a Satan who is good is not Satan. Simple.

The thread starter (or anyone else interested in this subject) should read the The Devil's Apocrypha: There Are Two Sides to Every Story. It's a intriguing book about the familiar stories from the holy bible that are told from the reverse perspective, Lucifer and his followers.

~Satanic Reverend Medivh~

Oh WOW. So mant things to say. So many half baked ideas to address, and so much swiss cheese logic to correct. Alas, I am tired, and the night is getting shorter, so let me start with only one:

Someone played the whole "no one has fought war in the devils name" card earlier in the thread.

So, using your logic, let me ask you this: If I were to kill my entire family right now, then walk out of my house and go on a killing/raping spree while flying a flag with your name on it, would that make you evil? And does it make me good simply because no one has ever done anything bad and claimed it was an order from me?

Obviously not. Don't blame God because people do stupid things 'in his name'.

I would like to say this: Most of what I have read so far in this thread is either incorrect or illogical. One mistake, as a very quick and dirty example, is when Anti-Social Darwinism #54 said made this comment: There is a saying, "by their fruits shall ye know them." Seems to me the fruits of Christianity (and, for that matter, Islam and Judaism) have been genocide, terrorism, intolerance, slavery, bigotry, racism, sexism, ad nauseam.. Take no offense at me pointing you out here, however, I would like to say that A. You are right when you said that we are known by our fruits. You did an excellent job in pointing out that men are fairly screwed up, make a lot of bad decisions, and do all of the things that you pointed out. I don't, however, see where that reflects on God. It needs said that, while christians are doing all of the things that you listed, so is everyone else. The only thing that you have managed to point out is that christians are no better than everyone else. I agree. How that proves that God is evil, I can't grasp.

I haven't taken the time to properly address the issue above. Most of you will be very quick to point out that Anti-Social Darwinism #54 mentioned several Biblical stories in his second paragraph that were intended to drive his point home. All he really managed to do is point out that he A. Didn't properly segregate biblical historical stories from biblical parables and B. Seems to have totally missed the boat on what was the point of the recorded history was, or what the parible was trying to teach.

I would love, more than anything, to continue this conversation with anyone that wants to. I am, if you must have a label, a Christian. I am however (how many times have I used that word now?) a very frusterated one. The main problem with Christianity is that it is totally based on Faith. An issue of Faith, by a mortal definition, can not be proven or disproven. It's not a problem[\i} really. It's just that so many of us simply must have tangible proof. In our quest for this, we chose to look at other christians instead of to God. A person with questions looks at Churches, they look at history, and they look to the news. What they see is a whole lot of messed up people doing messed up things. Its natural that they assign these quailities to God. Erroneous, but natural. Sorry folks. Christians are not good people. They are simple people that are willing to accept the ABC's (thats not a vauge referance. There really is an ABC's to christianity. Just ask, I'll fill you in.). That doesnt make them pure. Just trying... for the most part.

Anyway, I extend my invitation for lively debate and conversation on the topic of God, Satan, and Christianity to anyone who wants. I would like to do it privatley simple because I am not a big fan of forums. Too many conversations all going on at the same time. Before you have even finished explaining your first thought, 100 people have spoken in between, and twised your answers before you could get the whole thing out. If anyone thinks that I am hiding behind my request for privacy, I offer you this: I would love to post all of the correspondanse in the forum for everyone to read and pick apart, once its completed.

I can't offer you 'proof' that God exists. I can't reason with you and cause you to believe. I won't even try. All I am offering is the opportunity to show you things the way they realy are. Correct bad logic, explain biblical teachings and events, and hopefully, learn a few things myself. I truly hope that some of you respond. For this reason only: there [i]is a place after here. And I would be very, very sad to see anyone show up there and miss out on Heaven simply because they were chocked full of bad logic and ideas. Heaven isnt a reward per se, and Hell isnt a punishment. That too is erroneous thinking. How sad it would be to learn that truth when its too late. You can only get there with faith, so once you are there, and can touch and feel it, it's no longer an issue of faith. You have already made your decision. Think it through before you get there. I would love to help you.


Please explain to me how I missed the point of these stories. Whether history, allegory or parable, they illustrate what the Judeo-Christian God values - violence against the other (that is, anyone who doesn't follow him [basically, a jumped-up Semitic war god] slavishly).

it provides better explanations as to why we're here than evolution does...
Well DUH evolutionary theory does not try to explain the why ... just the how.
Me thinks you may need to take another science class

Through all these theories/religions about God, it is widely accepted that the creator of the universe is an omnipotent light-sided being. It is also widely accepted that defiance of this God sends the defiant to hell where he will suffer.

Now take christianity for example: God created us and he is good. Satan fell to the dark side and now attempts to tempt us with evil thoughts. Couldn't it be the other way around?

(for lack of confusion, I'll retain "God" as the good one and "Satan as the bad one)
Satan created us and he is evil. God thought that Satan is too evil and tyrannical, so he betrayed Satan and now tempts us with good thoughts.
Why can't it be this way?

Why does the creator of our universe have any morality at all. If we have no evidence that he has either morality (or evidence for both), then shouldn't we settle on the default setting of neutral morality?

Also, back to the assumption that God is good and Satan is bad. If we follow God and be good, we go to heaven and experience happiness and mainly good emotions.

If we do bad things we go to hell where we suffer. Why couldn't it be that we go to hell and experience evil emotions that bring us happiness. Where experiencing comfort and friendship would give you happiness in heaven, because that's what kind of person you are and what you enjoy, then why not experience anger and evil satisfaction in hell, because that's the kind of person you are and what you enjoy?

God rewards you for following him, so why wouldn't Satan reward you as well? I'm thinking Satan does reward you (if he doesn't then he's really stupid: join me and I'll punish you, join my opponent and you will be rewarded) and God is just trying to give him bad PR.

Just a few thoughts.
Read the Devil's Apocrypha :)

Assuming God is a being of infinite power He must be infinitely good, otherwise His infinite power would corrupt him infinitely and absolutly, He couldn't control His power since everything about God would be corrupted including His control, He would explode, and we would have pantheism. Then the question would has to be asked, where did Jesus come from and how did he rise from the dead and perform miracles all over the place if there was no God?

If there was no threat of punishment for what we do on this planet... then I think a vast majority IMHO would kill, maim, ect...


I find this fairly annoying. The implication of this is that if you don't believe in God then you have no ethics. Well, I don't believe in God and I don't randomly go around killing and maiming. No, I save mine up for the weekend. It gives me something to look forward to.

Please explain to me how I missed the point of these stories. Whether history, allegory or parable, they illustrate what the Judeo-Christian God values - violence against the other (that is, anyone who doesn't follow him [basically, a jumped-up Semitic war god) slavishly).
Well, then, that would be where you missed...

Anyone here read Paradise Lost?

Yes. Once. Rhythm and metre and whatnot (*shudders*). Never again.

To the thread starter, good point on the Satan thing. Why should Satan punish you for doing bad anyways? For years I've been on the tail of Christianity, studying it from several angles and well... that actually never came up.

I did play Demon:The Fallen by White Wolf, and it gave an interesting twist.

Basically, humanity had no conscience, and they couldn't appreciate things like art and beauty and God would never speak on why. One angel forsaw the doom of humans and wanted to intervene, but God forbade it. So Lucifer led a crusade, enlightening humans and rebelling against God. War raged between the Fallen and the Host, and it seemed the Fallen were winning.

Lucifer wanted to bring out the godly qualities out of humanity though, but some Fallen feared the humans might have more power than the Fallen, so they undermined the project. Everything fell through, humanity abandoned the Fallen and then the Host struck back and sent the Fallen into hell. Humanity now entered an era that would culminate into the Apocalypse.

The tragedy is that the Fallen's actions to "save" humanity is actually what caused the damnation in the end.

Assuming God is a being of infinite power He must be infinitely good, otherwise His infinite power would corrupt him infinitely and absolutly, He couldn't control His power since everything about God would be corrupted including His control, He would explode, and we would have pantheism. Then the question would has to be asked, where did Jesus come from and how did he rise from the dead and perform miracles all over the place if there was no God?

Prove he performed miracles and I'll chop of my penis. Deal?

Morals are subjective...
Satan tells mankind: Search for knowledge, even in taboo places. Shaitan told the Djinn: Let us test God's word, let us not mindlessly believe all that God says. Although these myths are irrelevant to the modern world, the role of Satan is very much relevant to our lives and our search for knowledge. Enlightenment is the ability to look past stated truth and dogma, and Lucifer is the Crown Prince of Satan that represents our search for enlightenment.
~Satanic Reverend Medivh~

Just reading this passage and the words 'lucifer' and 'enlightenment' jumped out. Lucifer means 'the bringer of light'. Hmm. Interesting that.

Anyway, it's back to the maiming :mp5: and killing :sniper: for me! (it is the weekend after all!:)

I would like to say this: Most of what I have read so far in this thread is either incorrect or illogical. One mistake, as a very quick and dirty example, is when Anti-Social Darwinism #54 said made this comment: There is a saying, "by their fruits shall ye know them." Seems to me the fruits of Christianity (and, for that matter, Islam and Judaism) have been genocide, terrorism, intolerance, slavery, bigotry, racism, sexism, ad nauseam.. Take no offense at me pointing you out here, however, I would like to say that A. You are right when you said that we are known by our fruits. You did an excellent job in pointing out that men are fairly screwed up, make a lot of bad decisions, and do all of the things that you pointed out. I don't, however, see where that reflects on God. It needs said that, while christians are doing all of the things that you listed, so is everyone else. The only thing that you have managed to point out is that christians are no better than everyone else. I agree. How that proves that God is evil, I can't grasp.

Anyway, I extend my invitation for lively debate and conversation on the topic of God, Satan, and Christianity to anyone who wants. I would like to do it privatley simple because I am not a big fan of forums. Too many conversations all going on at the same time. Before you have even finished explaining your first thought, 100 people have spoken in between, and twised your answers before you could get the whole thing out. If anyone thinks that I am hiding behind my request for privacy, I offer you this: I would love to post all of the correspondanse in the forum for everyone to read and pick apart, once its completed.

I can't offer you 'proof' that God exists. I can't reason with you and cause you to believe. I won't even try. All I am offering is the opportunity to show you things the way they realy are. Correct bad logic, explain biblical teachings and events, and hopefully, learn a few things myself. I truly hope that some of you respond. For this reason only: there is a place after here. And I would be very, very sad to see anyone show up there and miss out on Heaven simply because they were chocked full of bad logic and ideas. Heaven isnt a reward per se, and Hell isnt a punishment. That too is erroneous thinking. How sad it would be to learn that truth when its too late. You can only get there with faith, so once you are there, and can touch and feel it, it's no longer an issue of faith. You have already made your decision. Think it through before you get there. I would love to help you.I'm interested in knowing how you reply to this then:

This argument seems to logically deny any christian God, ie, any one that is benevolent and all-knowing.

1. You have a God. This God is omniscient.
2. God created everything, including people.
3. Because God is omniscient, he knew what your (and all of His creation's) actions would be before He made them.

Does this make God responsible for the crimes committed? It would seem so, because He would have specifically created man, and the devil, and knew what they would do. It also does not really allow free will, which is a THE point in accountability for sins in said religions.

So is God responsible? If not, why not?

Satan is just a word to describe a non-existant thing/force that Christians believe is the root cause of all evil. Since Satan is the name of this force, if Satan in fact was the good guy, then he would not be called Satan.

I once heard a very good explanation for why some people believe in god and why some people are atheist (for the record I am atheist). People do things based on probability. You wouldn't go up to the head cheerleader and ask her out if you were the most hated kid in school because the probability is that she will reject you. Same goes for believing in God. Sure there may be a God, but the chances of that are so absolutely remote that it is impractical to spend your life basing it on rules put forth by "prophets" thousands of years ago.

One of the biggest reasons I am atheist is because throughout history there have been a number of religions to rise and subsequently fall. We now know that these religions were in fact preaching lies. Zeus never existed. Neither did Hermes or any of the other gods they invented. They were created to explain the unknown. To provide answers to questions that could not be answered with the science of the day. The sun rises because of the rotation of the Earth, not because of some tug of war game between the gods or what have you. In the early days of scientists telling people about evolution, the church denounced these scientists and said these beliefs were sin. Same as when it was said that the universe did not revolve around us. So, I can say with extreme confidence that someday Christianity (and Islam and Judaism) will start to lose membership, and millenia from now people will look upon the people of today as fools for believing in what is essentially non-sense. There is irrevutable evidence that we as humans have evolved over billions of years from single celled organisms to what we are today.

A final point is that there are multiple religions, meaning one religion is right, and all the rest are wrong. Either Jesus is God's son or he is not God's son. He can't be both, so there are billions of people in the world practicing the wrong faith. Every religion can't be right and there is no way of telling which one is right, other than educated guesses, so why should one attempt to pray to a god that may not exist at all. You know what the difference between a cult and a religion is? How long people have been believing in it.

So, overall, satan can't be god, god can't be satan, satan can't be satan, etc. ect. None of them exist. It's not just what I believe it's what I know. You can spend your whole life praying to a non-existant god, but when you're six feet under and Jesus ain't calling, I'll be in you're mind giving you a big "I told you so!"

God can't be evil and hell good for the same reason that red can't be green and vice versa.

Because humans have defined those words to mean a particular thing, and have arrived on a consensus as to what those things mean.

The day green=red, we can all rejoice that Oceania has defeated its hated enemies Eurasia and has always been allied with Eastasia, and count 2+2 as 5.

1) God is omnipotent.

2) Omnipotence requires omnibenevolence.

3) God therefore is that which is good.

We have about 6 pages here on the nature of God so far - and there's no mention of Aquinas, Anselm or Augustine? Not one theological logician came up, and I read the whole darned discussion.

thread = sad.

1) God is omnipotent.

2) Omnipotence requires omnibenevolence.

3) God therefore is that which is good.

We have about 6 pages here on the nature of God so far - and there's no mention of Aquinas, Anselm or Augustine? Not one theological logician came up, and I read the whole darned discussion.

thread = sad.

Why does omnipotence require omnibenevolence? Wouldn't being omnibenevolent be quite limiting? A god who is omnibenevolent would be incapable of doing not-omnibenevolent things and would therefore not be omnipotent.

Wouldn't be amorality be a requirement for omnipotence instead?

God can't be evil and hell good for the same reason that red can't be green and vice versa.

Because humans have defined those words to mean a particular thing, and have arrived on a consensus as to what those things mean.

The day green=red, we can all rejoice that Oceania has defeated its hated enemies Eurasia and has always been allied with Eastasia, and count 2+2 as 5.
You have been reading Public School Math textbooks again haven't you Kat...

Why does omnipotence require omnibenevolence? Wouldn't being omnibenevolent be quite limiting? A god who is omnibenevolent would be incapable of doing not-omnibenevolent things and would therefore not be omnipotent.

Wouldn't be amorality be a requirement for omnipotence instead?

If God were Omnipotent but not Omnibenevolent, then he, by definition, could do no wrong. Anything he does would be correct. If he didn't happen to like the results, he could easily reverse it and set things on a new course. Everything would exist to suit his every whim.

Imagine me with limitless power. There you go. :)

it provides better explanations as to why we're here than evolution does...

LOL

You're kidding, right?


Well, in a sense, he is right.

Religon's explanations for anything suck because no matter how well discussed or disected, they're still, ultimatly, just pulled out of somebody's ass.

However, evolution doesn't offer any explanation at all as to why we're here. It specifically doesn't address the point of why we're here. All evolution has to say about it is that there doesn't have to be a why. That's sort of the point of it. But it does give us a how that is infinitly better than those offered by any religions.

I'm interested in knowing how you reply to this then:

This argument seems to logically deny any christian God, ie, any one that is benevolent and all-knowing.

1. You have a God. This God is omniscient.
2. God created everything, including people.
3. Because God is omniscient, he knew what your (and all of His creation's) actions would be before He made them.

Does this make God responsible for the crimes committed? It would seem so, because He would have specifically created man, and the devil, and knew what they would do. It also does not really allow free will, which is a THE point in accountability for sins in said religions.

So is God responsible? If not, why not?
>You have a God.

This implies the personal God, i.e. each individual with distinct and unique personal beliefs in what the image of God might be; each individual forming a unique relationship with that image. Otherwise, you meant to say, "There is a God."

>This God is omniscient.

Omnisicence means that God sees all, knows all, that goes on in the human mind/heart/soul; God judges us (our motivations, our initiative of actions) every moment of our lives by this means.

>God created everything, including people.

Okay. Another premise; it doesn't follow from the first statements, so is a third premise, albeit redundant to your conclusion.

>Because God is omniscient, he knew what your (and all of His creation's) actions would be before He made them.

No, omniscience means God knows what your initiative is, your purpose before you take action.

This does not make God responsible for anything you do, as you are still the one with the initiative.

1) God is omnipotent.

2) Omnipotence requires omnibenevolence.

3) God therefore is that which is good.

We have about 6 pages here on the nature of God so far - and there's no mention of Aquinas, Anselm or Augustine? Not one theological logician came up, and I read the whole darned discussion.

thread = sad.

Maybe that's because everyone here capable of logic realizes that the idea of applying logic to religion is rather like applying hats to Henry VIII's wives.

Well, I one reason I hate California is because of the extreme heat. If I'm eternally damned to hell, then all I get is California sunshine 24/7/eternity. I'd die, problem is I'll already be dead and quite fucked.

So I would prefer to go to heaven to cool off with the wind. Sure I'll be closer to the sun, but I can hang out at one of the poles with some friends. Good times.

Satan is just a word to describe a non-existant thing/force that Christians believe is the root cause of all evil. Since Satan is the name of this force, if Satan in fact was the good guy, then he would not be called Satan.

Touche..! Perfectly correct. :)


I once heard a very good explanation for why some people believe in god and why some people are atheist (for the record I am atheist). People do things based on probability. You wouldn't go up to the head cheerleader and ask her out if you were the most hated kid in school because the probability is that she will reject you.

Unless you WANTED to get rejected,.. and use that incident to deride
the "stuck up" cheerleader class.


Same goes for believing in God. Sure there may be a God, but the chances of that are so absolutely remote that it is impractical to spend your life basing it on rules put forth by "prophets" thousands of years ago.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Why is it a "absolutely remote"
possibility? Why would you base it on "rules of ancient prophets"?

WHAT are you blithering about?


One of the biggest reasons I am atheist is because throughout history there have been a number of religions to rise and subsequently fall. We now know that these religions were in fact preaching lies. Zeus never existed. Neither did Hermes or any of the other gods they invented. They were created to explain the unknown. To provide answers to questions that could not be answered with the science of the day. The sun rises because of the rotation of the Earth, not because of some tug of war game between the gods or what have you. In the early days of scientists telling people about evolution, the church denounced these scientists and said these beliefs were sin. Same as when it was said that the universe did not revolve around us. So, I can say with extreme confidence that someday Christianity (and Islam and Judaism) will start to lose membership, and millenia from now people will look upon the people of today as fools for believing in what is essentially non-sense. There is irrevutable evidence that we as humans have evolved over billions of years from single celled organisms to what we are today.

There is a difference between "gods" and "God".

There is a difference between "the God according to a people" and "God".

God is a necessary element for humans, but to be effective, and not
just "potential" and "un-helpful" (if not downright anti-helpful), it must be
rationally accepted (justified) by an individual and incorporated into their
worldview.


A final point is that there are multiple religions, meaning one religion is right, and all the rest are wrong.

Why is this necessary? I don't accept this postulate.

Personally, I think ALL (codified) religions are wrong in many details, and ALL
religions are right is a very few details.

Thus, one religion is not "right", and all others are "wrong", and
complete "perfection" does not invalidate the concept of religion.


Either Jesus is God's son or he is not God's son. He can't be both, so there are billions of people in the world practicing the wrong faith.

Could he be so in one respect, and not be so in another respect?

Are you tied to the concept of religion that fools use to claim the supremacy
of their "faith"? If so, your impulses are correct, though your conclusions are
wrong.


Every religion can't be right and there is no way of telling which one is right, other than educated guesses, so why should one attempt to pray to a god that may not exist at all. You know what the difference between a cult and a religion is? How long people have been believing in it.

So, overall, satan can't be god, god can't be satan, satan can't be satan, etc. ect. None of them exist. It's not just what I believe it's what I know. You can spend your whole life praying to a non-existant god, but when you're six feet under and Jesus ain't calling, I'll be in you're mind giving you a big "I told you so!"

I agree with you. Don't pray (or become prey) to a nonexistence God.

But find that which gives you understanding and effectiveness in the world.
You may call it what you wish. I call it God. :)


-Iakeo

I'm interested in knowing how you reply to this then:

This argument seems to logically deny any christian God, ie, any one that is benevolent and all-knowing.

1. You have a God. This God is omniscient.
2. God created everything, including people.
3. Because God is omniscient, he knew what your (and all of His creation's) actions would be before He made them.

Does this make God responsible for the crimes committed? It would seem so, because He would have specifically created man, and the devil, and knew what they would do. It also does not really allow free will, which is a THE point in accountability for sins in said religions.

So is God responsible? If not, why not?

My reply:

God does not "know" anything, as he is not a creature. He ( don't get hung
up on the pronouns!) simply is, and his only quality is "God".

If he can not "know", and therefore does not "care" (one must be aware of
something to care about it), he can not be held "responsible" for any effect
of "creation".

The "creation" (all things) was "created" (came into existence) by God only
because God is the only "thing" (which is not a thing) that could have done
so, because only God could be both himself and his creation, while remaining
himself "uncreated" (a creature).

In other words, God can not be attributed with human (or creature)
characteristics (such as blame, or hair color) because he is not a creature.

"Free will" is a guarantee of God, because he has no power over any creation
other than their initial creation,.. which means that God controls (controlled)
nothing more than the "rules" of the physical universe that were set in place
at it's "creation".

Does that make sense to you? If not,.. ask questions if you care about how
this particular wacko (me) could believe such things. :)

-Iakeo

1) God is omnipotent.

2) Omnipotence requires omnibenevolence.

3) God therefore is that which is good.

We have about 6 pages here on the nature of God so far - and there's no mention of Aquinas, Anselm or Augustine? Not one theological logician came up, and I read the whole darned discussion.

thread = sad.

What are the pertinent parts (ideas) of these philosophers to this discussion?

I dare say that the ideas of these "fabulous minds" have been touched on
here somewhere.

Quoting "experts" is nice, but illustrating their ideas is much more useful.

Thanks..!

-Iakeo

If God were Omnipotent but not Omnibenevolent, then he, by definition, could do no wrong. Anything he does would be correct. If he didn't happen to like the results, he could easily reverse it and set things on a new course. Everything would exist to suit his every whim.

Imagine me with limitless power. There you go. :)

First off,.. Lunatic Goofballs IS my god (little "g")..!! The funniest person on
the planet at this time. Listen well to his/her (as I don't know which) humor,
and cringe at the thought "Why didn't I think of that!!?"

Secondly,.. this argument is proof that Omnibenevolence is "stupid". :)

Omnipotence is also "stupid", but if the "omnipotent" one is incapable of
DOING anything, then his "omnipotence" is pretty effectively neutered.

The only good God is a neutered God. But then,.. I believe in a thoroughly
neutered God, so I'm cool. :)

-Iakeo

God blew Himself up (thus the "big bang") in an effort to find out what impotence felt like. He is in the process of reforming (the big crunch) so he can compile the data.

As Ithey say, "The Devil has All the best tunes"

Maybe that's because everyone here capable of logic realizes that the idea of applying logic to religion is rather like applying hats to Henry VIII's wives.

Religion is perfectly logical.

It just operates with different "material" than non-religious logic.

Much like the way 1+1=12 is illogical to mathematicians, while being perfectly
sensible to breeders of bunnies.

-Iakeo

God blew Himself up (thus the "big bang") in an effort to find out what impotence felt like. He is in the process of reforming (the big crunch) so he can compile the data.

I think you meant "omnipotence", not "impotence",.. though I could be
wrong,.. in which case that's a REALLY funny joke..!! :)

Apparently God (your "feeling" God) has "something" to do while the universe
is contracting, and doesn't mind the wait.

Why do you suppose he's "taking it slow"?

-Iakeo

God = Good = Salad for dinner
Satan = Bad = Chocolate to ruin your appetite for salad

Dangle chocolate in front of dieter who's been eating salad for dinner for six weeks running. Record results.

Possible outcomes:

1) Dieter is tempted, watch strain on dieters face as he/she turns away, resisting temptation to eat crap and sticks to diet. End result: slimmer dieter.

2) Dieter gives into temptation, thinking that one tiny lapse can't do any harm, dieters diet collapses within 1 week. Result: one fat momma!

Conclusion:
God = Good = Salad for dinner = VERY HARD WORK!!!
Satan = Bad = Chocolate to ruin your appetite for salad = short term gain, long term pain as dieter spends next three years trying to work off 150 chocolate bars from hips and thighs.

I think you meant "omnipotence", not "impotence",.. though I could be wrong,.. in which case that's a REALLY funny joke..!! :)
Double Entendre... ;) but not too off the mark.

Scott Adams wrote a book/thought experiment with "God Blows Himself Up to see what being "non-omnipotent" feels like" as its central theme.

“Omnipotence means that nothing is a challenge. And what could stimulate the mind of someone who knows everything?” “You make it sound almost boring to be God. But I guess you’ll say boredom is a human feeling.” “Everything that motivates living creatures is based on some weakness or flaw. Hunger motivates animals. Lust motivates animals. Fear and pain motivate animals. A God would have none of those impulses. Humans are driven by all of our animal passions plus loftier-sounding things like self-actualization and creativity and freedom and love. But God would care nothing for those things, or if he cared would already have them in unlimited quantities. None of them would be motivating.” “So what motivates God?” I asked. “Do you have the answer to that question, or are you just yanking my chain?” “I can conceive of only one challenge for an omnipotent being—the challenge of destroying himself.” “You think God would want to commit suicide?” I asked. “I’m not saying he wants anything. I’m saying it’s the only challenge.” “I think God would prefer to exist than to not exist.” “That’s thinking like a human, not like a God. You have a fear of death so you assume God would share your preference. But God would have no fears. Existing would be a choice. And there would be no pain of death, nor feelings of guilt or remorse or loss. Those are human feelings, not God feelings. God could simply choose to discontinue existence.” “There’s a logical problem here, according to your way of thinking,” I said. “If God knows the future, he already knows if he will choose to end his existence, and he knows if he will succeed at it, so there’s no challenge there, either.” “Your thinking is getting clearer,” he said. “Yes, he will know the future of his own existence under normal conditions. But would his omnipotence include knowing what happens after he loses his omnipotence, or would his knowl-edge of the future end at that point?” “That sounds like a thoroughly unanswerable question. I think you’ve hit a dead end,” I said. “Maybe. But consider this. A God who knew the answer to that question would indeed know everything and have everything. For that reason he would be unmotivated to do anything or create anything. There would be no purpose to act in any way whatsoever. But a God who had one nagging question—what happens if I cease to exist?—might be motivated to find the answer in order to complete his knowledge. And having no fear and no reason to continue existing, he might try it.” “How would we know either way?” “We have the answer. It is our existence. The fact that we exist is proof that God is motivated to act in some way. And since only the challenge of self-destruction could interest an omnipotent God, it stands to reason that we . . .” (snip) “We are God’s debris...
You can download the PDF Free here: http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf

Apparently God (your "feeling" God) has "something" to do while the universe is contracting, and doesn't mind the wait. Why do you suppose he's "taking it slow"?
-Iakeo

Read the book. ;)

eh... dodges? i seem to recall the first verse couple of chapters in the Bible describing how we got here...

So if I write a book describing our origins, declare it a religious text inspired by God, then it's fact?

Will do.

Anyways on the subject matter, there is a belief system called maltheism which hold that God exists but is evil (the slaughter of Egyptian children, the flood, etc). Check it out on wikipedia.