NationStates Jolt Archive

Should their pay be cut, should they get pay increases, or are they earning enough?

http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/06/pf/college/professor_pay/index.htm

Should their pay be cut, should they get pay increases, or are they earning enough?

http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/06/pf/college/professor_pay/index.htm
I'd say they're earning quite enough.

Now all I have to do is find a way to get one of them to support my expensive needs.....

They don't earn enough. I have nothing but respect for my professors, all of which are also involved with research projects.
They work long and hard hours, yet they get paid squat.

If one would guarantee me that an increase in my HECS fees would go directly to their wages, I'd consider it.

As it is however, my university makes tens of millions of dollars profit every year - and so the current increases make little sense to me.

They work long and hard hours, yet they get paid squat.


$ 50,000 to $ 90,000 US is squat? Man, would I like some of that "squat." I'm an engineer and don't make that much "squat." :(

Considering you couldn't pay me enough to be a college professor, I would say that they aren't earning enough.

$ 50,000 to $ 90,000 US is squat? Man, would I like some of that "squat." I'm an engineer and don't make that much "squat." :(
Well, I was talking in an Australian context, where they might be making between 50 and 90k Australian.

Well, I was talking in an Australian context, where they might be making between 50 and 90k Australian.

Is that not so good pay in OZ?

Fulltime professors nearly always have PhDs. PhDs require 8 years of schooling, as well as years and years of post-docs. Basically, these professors have as much schooling as doctors, and yet earn less than half as much on average. Of course they should be paid more.

$ 50,000 to $ 90,000 US is squat? Man, would I like some of that "squat." I'm an engineer and don't make that much "squat." :(

Of course this is only their base pay and does not include their various perks, speaking engagment scam, travel/vacation/sabbatical, unlimited government grants, donations for endorsments from assorted foundations and special interest groups, and for those in need of real quick cash, Bill Gates gladly pays for papers declaring the benefits of widows beta versions (ME) over all the rest.
We wont even mention certain individuals that steal others artwork and flip it in photoshop then sign their name and sell it.

Fulltime professors nearly always have PhDs. PhDs require 8 years of schooling, as well as years and years of post-docs.

No, they don't: I know several people who went through 3 year BA degrees, 1 year MA courses and then completed their PhD in a year. I even know a couple that went straight from BA courses to PhDs and finished them in a total of four years.

Are Professors earning to much?No.

and FYI...
US Doctors and Lawyers are earning too much.

US Doctors and Lawyers are earning too much.
Second.

Should their pay be cut, should they get pay increases, or are they earning enough?
I vote for Option 5:
Who cares? Why should I care what contracts other people want to draw up?

Is that not so good pay in OZ?
No, not really. With that sort of education, that sort of time (ie, 8 in the morning until 10 or 11 at night was routine for one of my lecturers) should give you more than that.

And as for contracts...well, the problem is that their skills are very specialised, and many probably don't have much choice of employer.

Personally I think the best way to resolve it is to make it illegal for pharmacutical companies to buy new drugs from the universities that discover them for $10,000 then get the patent for the product so those places can no longer make them anymore, and start charging out the ass for pills that can be made for almost nothing.
At the very least make it so the university can get the patent on their own work. Then they make shittles of money off something like viagra, the proffesors get paid and tuition goes down.

No.
I voted for option #3

and FYI...
US Doctors and Lawyers are earning too much.

Considering (for Doctors at least) there are more positions than there are people, perhaps they arent earning enough. Supply and demand and all that.

edit: And you do know 90% lawyers dont earn wall street paychecks? Just the good ones that can get a decent position....

Considering (for Doctors at least) there are more positions than there are people, perhaps they arent earning enough. Supply and demand and all that.
Paying them more won't do squat. Doctors practically set their own rates.

Of course this is only their base pay and does not include their various perks, speaking engagment scam, travel/vacation/sabbatical, unlimited government grants, donations for endorsments from assorted foundations and special interest groups, and for those in need of real quick cash, Bill Gates gladly pays for papers declaring the benefits of widows beta versions (ME) over all the rest.


What kind of university is this? At my college, there are no perks, speaking engagements for pay, grants are all from out of state (and certainly aren't unlimited), and they never a see a dime from any donations made to university.

From what I understand, they make $35,000 US dollars starting, and usually don't see an increase until a few years in. Lately, my university has seen an increase in the hundreds of enrolling students while losing professors, which leads to class sizes averaging 50 students. Most of them carry debt from college, which is usually in the tens of thousands (I'm five semester into undergrad and have $10,000 in loans already). And, most importantly, these professors have to put up with us college students.

So, yeah, I think they could use a pay raise.

Considering (for Doctors at least) there are more positions than there are people, perhaps they arent earning enough. Supply and demand and all that...#1< I am simply comparing Years of College..

#2< Most North American Colleges have Quotas for Med School and Law school.. So No.. it is not a matter of Supply-and-demand

#3< FYI Doctors and Lawyers in most other Countries get reasonable salaries.. like most other PHD professionals.. including Professors.

Considering (for Doctors at least) there are more positions than there are people, perhaps they arent earning enough. Supply and demand and all that.

edit: And you do know 90% lawyers dont earn wall street paychecks? Just the good ones that can get a decent position....

Actually the national average last I checked was $110,000 for attorney's. I am sure however this does not include attorneys that have branched out and infected virtually every governmental and private industry in the U.S. I.E. Elected representatives, judicial and law enforcment, the recording industry, the list goes on endlessly. Whether it is a tax payer supported attorney, or a tax payer supported professor, they are raking in massive amounts more than what they claim, and what the government approved statistical methods indicate.

That stupid fucking word "average" again. I'm an instructor, and I make significantly less than the average for instructors acccording to that article, and I guarantee you that the full professors in my department aren't pulling down that average, and I live in an area with a significantly higher cost of living than most. But that's my department--the full professors at my university in, say, the Chemistry department are probably making that much, because the demand is higher and the people doing the work are fewer in number.

Maybe if the people doing the study had broken it down according to department, there could be some reasonable discussion, but not with this bogus "evidence."

... they are raking in massive amounts more than what they claim, and what the government approved statistical methods indicate.Yes Lawyers do declare a minimum..and some times even less..

And Doctors do get a lot of "side benefits" from Big Pharmaceutical Corps...

$ 50,000 to $ 90,000 US Let me put in this way.. 90.000 USD full-time pay should be fair For a PhD Professor

But 50,000 is definitively underpaid for a PhD... or even a Master's.

...I'm an instructor, and I make significantly less than the average for instructors acccording to that article, and I guarantee you that the full professors in my department...What is an "Instructor"?

What kind of university is this? At my college, there are no perks, speaking engagements for pay, grants are all from out of state (and certainly aren't unlimited), and they never a see a dime from any donations made to university.

From what I understand, they make $35,000 US dollars starting, and usually don't see an increase until a few years in. Lately, my university has seen an increase in the hundreds of enrolling students while losing professors, which leads to class sizes averaging 50 students. Most of them carry debt from college, which is usually in the tens of thousands (I'm five semester into undergrad and have $10,000 in loans already). And, most importantly, these professors have to put up with us college students.

So, yeah, I think they could use a pay raise.

There are many. It sounds like you attend a smaller univeristy seeing that your starting pay is about equal to elementry education teachers. Either that or they are feeding you a line of "ka-ka" which is also a strong possibility. I remember well the amount of time in the 70's during the teacher strikes they used feeding students false and misleading information during class time. Teachers are human and under estimating ones situation for the puropse of bettering ones lot, is a natural state of being.

Simonist']I'd say they're earning quite enough. Now all I have to do is find a way to get one of them to support my expensive needs.....

I couldn't disagree more. And I dont know about your college or university, but everyone of my profs are doctors, so they obviously need more. ALSO, tuition has hardly ANY corelation with prof. pay, because profs are usually paid by the government, at least in public universities.


Fulltime professors nearly always have PhDs. PhDs require 8 years of schooling, as well as years and years of post-docs. Basically, these professors have as much schooling as doctors, and yet earn less than half as much on average. Of course they should be paid more.

I agree Fully..

What is an "Instructor"?
It's the level between adjunct/teaching assistant and tenured professor. At my university, I get a one year renewable contract (but the university has a history of renewing for long periods of time and occasionally moving people up into tenured positions) and full benefits, and a higher teaching load than tenured professors--I teach 4 sections per semester. Tenured professors teach a 3-2 load but make up for the lower load by doing service--search committees, university committees, etc. It's not a bad gig, especially since I'm in a position where if I publish, there's some people who are going to retire in the next five years or so and I could conceivably move up.

What is an "Instructor"?
I believe that is the term for someone who lectures at a University but is not a professor. Some of them do research with the University, some have other jobs.

No.

and FYI...
US Doctors and Lawyers are earning too much.
lawyers I wont argue...Doctors, the main cause of high prices are insurance companies, which often only pay 10 cents on the dollar for procedures...



anyway, I'd say that professors are paid a decent ammount. I argue that they should stop wasting money on other things...like bricking over sidewalks and spending 2 million for marble in one buildings entryway.

But that's my department--the full professors at my university in, say, the Chemistry department are probably making that much, because the demand is higher and the people doing the work are fewer in number.

Possibly - though quite probably their pay is still significantly lower than they would earn if they went to work for a company.

I couldn't disagree more. And I dont know about your college or university, but everyone of my profs are doctors, so they obviously need more. ALSO, tuition has hardly ANY corelation with prof. pay, because profs are usually paid by the government, at least in public universities.
Wow, somebody missed their sarcasm juice this morning

No, they don't: I know several people who went through 3 year BA degrees, 1 year MA courses and then completed their PhD in a year. I even know a couple that went straight from BA courses to PhDs and finished them in a total of four years.

You can't go from a BA to a PhD in four years and if they did they bought some degrees on line. It is possible to get a BA in three years, but it would be a heavy load and require taking courses in the summer. A Masters can be had in a year, again a heavy load and summer school. From Masters to PhD or EdD might be possible in a year but that would be some serious workload.

Paying them more won't do squat. Doctors practically set their own rates.

If Doctors in the US accept Medicare or Medicade patients they are limited in what they can charge all patients. Doctors who accept insurance especially HMO plans are limited in what they can charge by the insurance company. They can not charge whatever they want to unless they don't accept any insurance at all. If they didn't accept any insurance they wouldn't have very many patients.

Lol, what an idea. They teach the most important people of the rising generation, educate the leaders and producers of tomorrow, find and propogate knowledge for mankind, etc., made a sort of glorified minimum wage if they ever worked in grade school, and we're talking about cutting their pay when useless thimble-brained jocks are paid millions of dollars to play games....

Should their pay be cut, should they get pay increases, or are they earning enough?

http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/06/pf/college/professor_pay/index.htm
No, not until the usage of it's and its is clearly understood, nor 'til to, two, and too are used properly, and only when their, they're and there never see an error.

And that's just the English profs. We all know the science side always earns its money. Just look at the advances in cold fusion. (That's a joke directed at my alma mater everyone.)


Sorry to look like I'm picking on you Celt. I just couldn't resist it this morning.

Then there's this whole question of 'What is enough?'. My opinion is that enough can only be decided by the earner and employer. Of course, with state-supported universities, the State Legislature gets into the act. That was one of my big reasons for leaving Tech. There was almost no way to really break out financially, whereas with a commercial company, I have stock options, bonuses, merit raises, continued employment -- all of the rewards that should go along with good work.

You can't go from a BA to a PhD in four years and if they did they bought some degrees on line. It is possible to get a BA in three years, but it would be a heavy load and require taking courses in the summer. A Masters can be had in a year, again a heavy load and summer school. From Masters to PhD or EdD might be possible in a year but that would be some serious workload.

Just to clarify, you can do this. In our program, you can enter the PhD program with a BS degree and be done with the PhD work in four years. Granted you are working 50-60 hrs a week, 6 days a week sort of thing, but it is being done. In fact, I will defend (PhD in Inorganic Chemistry) this August and have only been at grad school for 4 years.

As for salaries, it also depends a lot on the university. i went to a small, private, liberal arts college, and if a full tenured professor was making around 40,000 or so, they were at the very high end of the payscale. This includes the department chairs and what not. Yeah, tuition is expensive, books are too, but we aren't getting on the publishing companies to lower their "prices."

No, they don't: I know several people who went through 3 year BA degrees, 1 year MA courses and then completed their PhD in a year. I even know a couple that went straight from BA courses to PhDs and finished them in a total of four years.

Well, then they are atypical. Last I checked, the median Ph.D. course for the physical sciences was four or five years, and the median for humanities and social sciences (which tend to take longer because we have to read a few hundred books for our dissertations) was six or seven years.

A Ph.D. in a year? I wish!!

Personally, I did a BA in two and a half years, an MA in a year and a half, and I am currently in my second year of a Ph.D. program. I hope to finish in a total of five years, but I wouldn't advise anyone to bet on it.

They don't earn enough. I have nothing but respect for my professors, all of which are also involved with research projects.
They work long and hard hours, yet they get paid squat.
I think that Celtund was referring to American professors! Your example is irrelevant.

Just to clarify, you can do this. In our program, you can enter the PhD program with a BS degree and be done with the PhD work in four years. Granted you are working 50-60 hrs a week, 6 days a week sort of thing, but it is being done. In fact, I will defend (PhD in Inorganic Chemistry) this August and have only been at grad school for 4 years.

As for salaries, it also depends a lot on the university. i went to a small, private, liberal arts college, and if a full tenured professor was making around 40,000 or so, they were at the very high end of the payscale. This includes the department chairs and what not. Yeah, tuition is expensive, books are too, but we aren't getting on the publishing companies to lower their "prices."


Well, I cannot comment on your particular discipline, but I know that in most of the Liberal Arts, you are looking at least 8 years of post-secondary. In fact, I am currently on track for my own PhD, and I am doing a BA in three years, and am looking forward to another four years at the Masters level, (that includes one year field study) with perhaps another Masters degree as a preparatory degree for entering into the Ph.D. program (adding another 2-3 year) and then looking at a 3-4 year Doctorate. That is for Religious Studies. That would be B.A, M.Div., M.T.S., and finally Ph.D. It is a mammoth proposition. And in most humanities, (I am thinking about eventually getting my doctorate in History, (which might mean that I colloquy for 2 or more years earning a M.A. instead of getting the M.T.S.)

Also, one must know the difference between:
Sessionals- those who just come in and teach a couple of classes at the University-not a true member of the faculty.

Assistant Professors- I always get this and the next one mixed up, so correct me if I am wrong, but this is the lowest grade of Prof, just barely begun their tenure and almost no independent cr4edentials, but usually have a Doctorate.

Associate Professor- You have made your bones at this level and now are starting to get paid a little better, but have not established yourself as one of the elite in your university/field.

Professor- Full rank, highest pay scale, the one that is actually being talked about, usually have been serving at University for some time, is quite well established/respected in field, plenty of independent research/publications in peer-review journals and is among the very elite. Are the first to be looked at when appointing department heads, asking for service as a Dean, etc.


This is how I have come to understand it, so yeah, professors get paid fairly well at the actual Professor level, but even if they identify themselves as a Professor to a student, which is justified, they might not be considered a full one yet in the eyes of the faculty, or this article. I know everyone, especially those of you from American systems can argue that this doesn’t apply to your particular experience, but it is pretty universal at all the best universities. And the American system has a hugely wide disparity in both pay scale and quality; it is all over the map. I would question, though, why I am at a university that would pay a full prof less than 50,000 USD, because to my mind, if he could go somewhere better, he probably would, maybe this post was all that was left for him.

WWJD
Amen.

I find the average pays listed to be rather high. The listing of pays in the area 90 thousand or so dollars I would think would have to include theoretical perks that are offered to a professor.

It is funny that they also state a study found that for the first time in 8 years the pay of professors was raising lower then inflation. 3 or so years ago I read a study that said that inflation was rising faster then professors pay.

It also is noteworthy that due to a change in the way pay is determined there can not be a comparison to previous years. This would mean that the old data would be flawed in some way as it is incompatible with current data.

If you look at the pay of professors over a one hundred year level you would see that the pay has dropped considerably. In the past professors were very well paid, comparable to 1 million of today’s dollars (With inflation and devaluation of the dollar taken in). But today a professor makes

Also averages are notoriously misleading.

Also it should be noted that the data in for this article came from a survey. And there is no indication of how the department of education did this survey or even if the survey is scientific.

Are professors eating too much?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/guide/images/400/billybunterofgreyfriars_2.jpg

Yes. Yes, they are.

If you look at the pay of professors over a one hundred year level you would see that the pay has dropped considerably. In the past professors were very well paid, comparable to 1 million of today’s dollars (With inflation and devaluation of the dollar taken in).

Any chance of a source on that? It sounds possible, but I'd rather be sure.

Just to clarify, you can do this. In our program, you can enter the PhD program with a BS degree and be done with the PhD work in four years. Granted you are working 50-60 hrs a week, 6 days a week sort of thing, but it is being done. In fact, I will defend (PhD in Inorganic Chemistry) this August and have only been at grad school for 4 years.


Hard work, discipline, and talent is cheating. You should feel badly about yourself.