NationStates Jolt Archive

A simple question, really, but an intriguing one.

The Soviet Union really had all the advantages. The first Satellite, the First Orbital flight, and the first spacewalk were all Soviet Firsts. They were also the first to send a probe to the Moon. They had a nearly unlimited budget, and some very smart people. And they lost.

Why?

They lost?

A simple question, really, but an intriguing one.

The Soviet Union really had all the advantages. The first Satellite, the First Orbital flight, and the first spacewalk were all Soviet Firsts. They were also the first to send a probe to the Moon. They had a nearly unlimited budget, and some very smart people. And they lost.

Why?

The bureacracy, they had 3 agencies to manage the space flights. None of them got along or shared the technologies. The director of one of the agencies was absolutely hated by the directors of one of the other ones, because the first guy had him sent to the gulags some years before.

Besides, it wasn't a race at all because the Soviets weren't racing for the moon until 1964.

The moon landing really was a huge blow to the Soviets.


But there was never an announcement of a real "winner" of The Space Race. It was merely a race to be the superior nation with superior technology out in space, another extension of The Cold War.

They lost?

Indeed they did. The US got to the moon. The Soviet Union did not.

The bureacracy, they had 3 agencies to manage the space flights. None of them got along or shared the technologies. The director of one of the agencies was absolutely hated by the directors of one of the other ones, because the first guy had him sent to the gulags some years before.

Besides, it wasn't a race at all because the Soviets weren't racing for the moon until 1964.

Still, that was the next logical step in space exploration.

They were very VERY close, but the rocket that was going to the moon for the Soviets blew up, causing a LOT of damage to the morale. It killed quite a few people. That's what I can remember, if I am wrong some one please correct me. :)

I guess the US just took the technological edge, and we had the advantage of a huge amount of private sector talent to draw from; the amount of money companies could make from being involved in the program motivated them to really work at it.

Patriotism and the powerful economy of the 1960's also helped, as did the rapid rise of technology during that period. The Soviets simply couldn't meet us on an equal footing. It's even more remarkable when you realize that the Apollo program put a man on the moon while we were simultaneously fighting the Vietnam war.

They had a nearly unlimited budget, and some very smart people. And they lost.

Why?

Thats really incorrect, even accounting for the fact the Soviet Union was a command economy, the funding the space programme got was pitiful.

Damn. Give a half hour to compile some numbers.

I'm going to say the explosion that set them back a long bit and killed alot of boffins. Not that I actually know anything about it.

They were very VERY close, but the rocket that was going to the moon for the Soviets blew up, causing a LOT of damage to the morale. It killed quite a few people. That's what I can remember, if I am wrong some one please correct me. :)

I believe it was called the N-1.

Besides, it was a very bad design. So many little rockets.

A simple question, really, but an intriguing one.

The Soviet Union really had all the advantages. The first Satellite, the First Orbital flight, and the first spacewalk were all Soviet Firsts. They were also the first to send a probe to the Moon. They had a nearly unlimited budget, and some very smart people. And they lost.

Why?

Advantages? They had dozens of secret rocket crashes and explosions.

Atleast to my knowledge more than the US.

Indeed they did. The US got to the moon. The Soviet Union did not.

The moon was the Space Race? Please. That's basically the only thing the US won. The Soviets lost the moon. They didn't lose the space race. They were the first ones there, as you mentioned yourself. Satellites and people and space stations and whatnot - they did them all first. The moon, meh. Not enough to proclaim the US the winner.

http://www.exisle.net/mb/lofiversion/index.php/t31698.html

Your answers are all here, and I didn't even use Google.

I would argue that they even lost. The other list of firsts is more impressive than the moon landing, to me. If you compare the changes wrought by the moon landing to those wrought by satellites and spacewalks... plus of course the fact that more "firsts" were on the Soviet scoreboard.

I would argue that they even lost. The other list of firsts is more impressive than the moon landing, to me. If you compare the changes wrought by the moon landing to those wrought by satellites and spacewalks... plus of course the fact that more "firsts" were on the Soviet scoreboard.

I daresay that the technical challenges of a moon landing would be greater than the initial launching of a satellite or man into orbit.

we got more nazis than they did.

After WWII the US and soviet union went on a crazy Nazi-hunt to find the best scientists and spies Germany had left over from that "Third Reich" thingy. When it comes down to it, we won.

Try to think of it as a giant, cold war version of pokemon..

I would argue that they even lost. The other list of firsts is more impressive than the moon landing, to me. If you compare the changes wrought by the moon landing to those wrought by satellites and spacewalks... plus of course the fact that more "firsts" were on the Soviet scoreboard.

I don't think anyone ended up winning. It came to be a draw, with the Soviet Union having gotten most firsts. The meeting of Apollo and Soyuz in 75, I think, is indicative of that. IIRC, that's even considered the end of the space race.

actually, the CCCP did fairly well in space -- it was one of the big projects they took on behalf of their cash-starved people -- at least until they folded on account of a really shitty economy and what people must have finally realized as relatively (relative to non-socialist/communist countries, that is) low personal, financial and vocational rights.

In Soviet Russia, Space Race loses you!

The moon was the Space Race? Please. That's basically the only thing the US won. The Soviets lost the moon. They didn't lose the space race. They were the first ones there, as you mentioned yourself. Satellites and people and space stations and whatnot - they did them all first. The moon, meh. Not enough to proclaim the US the winner.

In my view, the "Space Race" was the race to get a man on the moon. Or even near the moon. The US won in that regard.

WHY THE US WON THE MOON RACE

Could the Soviets have gone to the Moon? Almost certainly. Could they
have done it with minimal loss of life? Probably. Could they have done it
before 1970? Ah, now there's a question.

So why *did* the Soviets lose their bid for the Moon? There's a whole
variety of reasons, but this would be my simplified take on it.

1. Whereas we had one central agency planning and coordinating everything
for our Moon shot, the Soviet space program was split into several
different agencies. Whereas NASA decided which proposal was best and
then built it, the Soviet agencies would design and build their own
programs and then compete for acceptance of their plan. This approach
was wasteful, redundant, and--since decisions were often made for
political rather than engineering reasons--didn't always even result
in the selection of the best of the plans available.

2. As #1 above suggests, the Soviets wasted considerable effort due to
political infighting. To simplify things, the three bureaus, from most
to lesst influential, were Korolyov's, Chelomei's, and Yangel's
(responsible for the Nedelin Disaster: see
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/spacecraft/q0179.shtml). Korolyov
was strongly opposed by people in Chelomei's bureau, one of whom had
gotten him sent to a prison camp during Stalin's purges. That should
give you some idea of the bitterness of the struggles that went on
between bureaus. For the N1, Korolyov was unable to recruit top-notch
rocket designers from Chelomei's group, so he was forced to make do with
second-raters who could only produce smaller engines. Consequently they
had to use 30 engines on the N1's first stage (compared to 5 on the
Saturn V). Now as you might imagine, a lot more can go wrong with
thirty engines than with five--and so they did. The N1, as it turned
out, was a very expensive firework.

3. Korolyov died in surgery in 1966. His successor Mishin was a competent
engineer but lacked the political skill and clout of Korolyov. This
caused a considerable loss of momentum to the USSR's space program.

4. The Soviets wasted a lot of resources in the early days focusing on
impressive feats and prestige firsts--mostly because Khrushchev obsessed
with such things. One big mistake was Voskhod, which got them the first
two-person flight, the first three-person flight (barely), and the first
spacewalk (barely), after which Voskhod was scrapped. The capsule was
little more than an enlarged Vostok, nearly caused four fatalities in
its two-flight history, and in the end, what it amounted to was a
dangerous and expensive distraction from the development of Soyuz.

5. The Soviets took longer to get in the game. Khrushchev at first
dismissed Kennedy's 1961 Moon speech, assuming it was just empty words.
It wasn't until two years later, after Kennedy offered cooperation on a
joint manned lunar mission, that the Soviets woke up and made the lunar
landing an official goal.

6. As if all this weren't enough, the Soviets didn't even fund their
program as well as the Americans. The US spent around $23 billion on
the manned lunar program, while the USSR is estimated to have spent less
than half that, somewhere around $5-10 billion. Now, labor and hardware
tend to cost less in a command economy than in a demand economy, but
that still leaves a substantial disparity in resource allocation.

I'm going to say it again. There was no real winner of The Space Race. No formal declaration of who won and who didn't one. It was a rush for space superiority, pitting the technologies of two major superpowers together to see which is superior.

Sometimes the Soviets would win, sometimes the Americans would win. But in the end, the technology that was gained was the key. It matters not who won.

In my view, the "Space Race" was the race to get a man on the moon. Or even near the moon. The US won in that regard.

The moon race != the space race. Sorry.

Call it a Moon Race THEN the USA won...if it sticks to its name...the USSR won...

The USSR held these firsts...

* First ICBM, the R-7
* First satellite, Sputnik 1
* First animal to enter orbit in space: Laika on Sputnik 2
* First person in space and in orbit, Yuri Gagarin on Vostok 1, Vostok programme
* First dual manned flight and approach in space with Vostok 3 and Vostok 4. While considered by some to be the first rendezvous, Vostok 3 and 4 were 5km apart, and on different orbital planes. American Gemini 6A and Gemini 7 were the first true rendezvous, three years later.
* First woman in space Valentina Tereshkova on Vostok 6
* First three man crew Voskhod 1
* First EVA on Voskhod 2 by Aleksei Leonov
* First docking between two manned craft in Earth orbit and exchange of crews Soyuz 4 and Soyuz 5.
* First firing of a rocket in Earth Orbit Luna 1
* First probe on the moon Luna 2
* First images of the moon's far side Luna 3
* First probe to land on Venus Venera 3
* First probe to land on Mars Mars 3 and return data
* First samples automatically returned to Earth from another body Luna 16
* First robotic space rover Lunokhod 1
* First Salyut 1 space station in 1971
* First woman to walk in space: Svetlana Savitskaya in 1984 while on Salyut 7 space station.
* First permanently manned space station, Mir, which orbited the Earth from 1986 until 2001.


Winner of the Space Race:The USSR
Winner of the Moon Race: The USA

Meh, this is what I call a space race:
http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/5083/spacerace0gn.th.jpg (http://img481.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spacerace0gn.jpg)

Something everyone has to remember...

The winners write history.


And the USSR sucked big ones at nearly everything.

Well the US and the CCCP started at roughly the same place. That is SOTA German aerospace. The reason that the mig and the starfighter were virtually identical was that they were bassed upon the same german craft. How did the CCCP get an early lead? Well they started the race. There was no real push for a space program at that point in the US and the Soviets felt that they had to show some form of technological superiority to the West. So when Sputnic went up even though the US had some of the best aereospace engineers (like the Von Braun team. They were very eager to avoid being captured by the soviets) but not much of a space program.
Now orbiting a satalite is'nt a huge technical accomplishment. Not something you want to do for science fair but the physics is pretty simple stuff. Adding a compartment (and the accompanying weight) to keep a mamal alive is a bit more complicated but basically the same physics with some new restrictions (in Gs) and a larger payload. So Gagarin was'nt much past Sputnik. Going to the moon and then returning (there is no cape Canavaral on the moon) is a much much much more complicated bit of work.
So eventually having a better economy a better engineering program etc. caught up.

OK, I guess I'll back that last point up.

-Sure they "won" the space race. But at a huge cost of human life, and they got to enjoy none of the benefits such as plastics and post it notes.

-They did have good technology militarily. But while the US pretty much did the space race/military biuldup at our leisure, the ruskies put so much money into the programs that...

-Life sucked major balls for the average Russian. I think we can all agree on that. Here we were, invented color TV's and playing football, while they were, like, starving and stuff.

-We always had more deliverable nukes, and way more ICBM's than them. Not a major point, but many back then *cough*Kennedy*cough* and now are confused on that point.

-Oh ya, they collapsed.

And the USSR sucked big ones at nearly everything.
Apart from, you know, shooting down and capturing US spy planes...

-We always had more deliverable nukes, and way more ICBM's than them. Not a major point, but many back then *cough*Kennedy*cough* and now are confused on that point.
They had enough to kill everybody several times over, you had enough to kill everybody many times over.

After the first round of "kill everybody", who's left to count?

Well the US and the CCCP started at roughly the same place. That is SOTA German aerospace. The reason that the mig and the starfighter were virtually identical was that they were bassed upon the same german craft. How did the CCCP get an early lead? Well they started the race. There was no real push for a space program at that point in the US and the Soviets felt that they had to show some form of technological superiority to the West. So when Sputnic went up even though the US had some of the best aereospace engineers (like the Von Braun team. They were very eager to avoid being captured by the soviets) but not much of a space program.
Now orbiting a satalite is'nt a huge technical accomplishment. Not something you want to do for science fair but the physics is pretty simple stuff. Adding a compartment (and the accompanying weight) to keep a mamal alive is a bit more complicated but basically the same physics with some new restrictions (in Gs) and a larger payload. So Gagarin was'nt much past Sputnik. Going to the moon and then returning (there is no cape Canavaral on the moon) is a much much much more complicated bit of work.
So eventually having a better economy a better engineering program etc. caught up.

Why do you keep calling it the CCCP? if you don't speak russian, it's the USSR. CCCP wouldn't even be the western equivilant. It would be the SSSR if you were going solely by pronounciation. CCCP is using the cyrillic alphabet.

we got more nazis than they did.

After WWII the US and soviet union went on a crazy Nazi-hunt to find the best scientists and spies Germany had left over from that "Third Reich" thingy. When it comes down to it, we won.

Try to think of it as a giant, cold war version of pokemon..
Nazi's, people running away to escape death camps run by Nazi's, same diff, right?

CCCP is using the cyrillic alphabet.

So? We're not allowed to do that, or what?

So? We're not allowed to do that, or what?

Exactly. Use one alphabet per post goddammit!

Exactly. Use one alphabet per post goddammit!

No, thanks.

Nazi's, people running away to escape death camps run by Nazi's, same diff, right?

you know that one of the main guys in the space program was the guy who invented the V2 Rocket for hitler right? We picked up loads of spies and scientists who were actually members of the Nazi Party. We got most of the Jewish scientists (like Einstein) before the war.

(nazis not nazi's - the apostrophie shows ownership rather than plurality)

Apart from, you know, shooting down and capturing US spy planes...
Took 'em how long to do that? :)

They knew we were flying right over them for years. And couldn't do anything about it. Don't recall any Soviet spy planes over America.

Except... maybe sputnik. Although, all sputnik did was make a beeping niose. Before it crashed back into the earth.

And like I said, they paid a much bigger price for their tech. than we ever would have considered.

you know that one of the main guys in the space program was the guy who invented the V2 Rocket for hitler right? We picked up loads of spies and scientists who were actually members of the Nazi Party. We got most of the Jewish scientists (like Einstein) before the war.

(nazis not nazi's - the apostrophie shows ownership rather than plurality)
Ya I supposed you got a point. I don't know about us "hunting them down" though.

Why do you keep calling it the CCCP? if you don't speak russian, it's the USSR. CCCP wouldn't even be the western equivilant. It would be the SSSR if you were going solely by pronounciation. CCCP is using the cyrillic alphabet.

It's a habit I picked up after visiting Moskba and St Petersburg in '88.

It's a habit I picked up after visiting Moskba and St Petersburg in '88.

That's cool if you like to write in cyrillic, but if you do, do it only in cyrillic. I'm a firm beliver in not having your cake and eating it too.

Apart from, you know, shooting down and capturing US spy planes...

Well they had an unfair advantage there not having any equivellant to the U2 to fly over the US where we could shoot it down. Did'nt I just say something about US Aerospace working on 'other things' early in the space race?

Took 'em how long to do that? :)

They knew we were flying right over them for years. And couldn't do anything about it. Don't recall any Soviet spy planes over America.
How do you know that's not just because none got shot down ;)

5iam, you taled about how the Soviet life sucked dick...care to talk about the new capitalist Russia and the conditions of the people NOW! Yeah...much better...HA! :rolleyes:

That's cool if you like to write in cyrillic, but if you do, do it only in cyrillic. I'm a firm beliver in not having your cake and eating it too.

Well It looks exactly the same in cyrillic characters so lets just pretend it's cyrillic shall we? Are we supposed to say Peiking or Peiping?

A few things on the side:

The Soviets built the first ICBM, some two years before the US.

The Nedelin explosion was a series of unlucky circumstances, but as far as I can see, not due to anything Soviet-specific. The same thing could've happened in the US.

And the Soviets had the Mig-25, which, if I recall collectly, caused the Western world to collectively defacate into their pants for some time.

So, the Soviets might have sucked at a lot of things, but rocketry was one of their strong points.

5iam, you taled about how the Soviet life sucked dick...care to talk about the new capitalist Russia and the conditions of the people NOW! Yeah...much better...HA! :rolleyes:

Actually yes better. Not great but a step up. At least it was better there in '99 then in '88 when't the last time you went there?

Well It looks exactly the same in cyrillic characters so lets just pretend it's cyrillic shall we? Are we supposed to say Peiking or Peiping?

I mean the entire post.. The Whole post or none of it. This High stakes posting.

A few things on the side:

The Soviets built the first ICBM, some two years before the US.

The Nedelin explosion was a series of unlucky circumstances, but as far as I can see, not due to anything Soviet-specific. The same thing could've happened in the US.

And the Soviets had the Mig-25, which, if I recall collectly, caused the Western world to collectively defacate into their pants for some time.

So, the Soviets might have sucked at a lot of things, but rocketry was one of their strong points.

The foxbat was actually slower and less manueverable than the SR-71 I know the SR-71 was a recon plane but the comparison is apt. The collective soiling of pants to which you refer was the inaccurate intellegence that it was much more manueverable than it was. Actually it'a poor handling is what eventually left it as a recon craft. Of course by the time the West had realized this they had alread soiled their pants enough to develope the F-14 and 15's which were superior not only to the foxbat but the later (actually agile enough for air combat) flogger.

I mean the entire post.. The Whole post or none of it. This High stakes posting.

Guess I'm just a rrebel...

Guess I'm just a rrebel...

If you'd have started quoting David Bowie lyrics I'd have been your best friend.

If you'd have started quoting David Bowie lyrics I'd have been your best friend.

Ew ick!

Ew ick!

You just made yourself a powerful enemy...

...Rock 'n' Roll...

The foxbat was actually slower and less manueverable than the SR-71 I know the SR-71 was a recon plane but the comparison is apt.
Of course. The Mig had a very specific thing to do, and that was simply to fly up there, launch a few trick missiles and come back down. They weren't fighters really.

The collective soiling of pants to which you refer was the inaccurate intellegence that it was much more manueverable than it was.
And the speed. And the height. And whether it could carry bombs. And so on.

Actually it'a poor handling is what eventually left it as a recon craft. Of course by the time the West had realized this they had alread soiled their pants enough to develope the F-14 and 15's which were superior not only to the foxbat but the later (actually agile enough for air combat) flogger.
All true, but the Migs are still neat. Just because if you pay the Russians, they'll fly you up to space in one.
http://www.incredible-adventures.com/edgeofspace.html

The moon was the Space Race? Please. That's basically the only thing the US won. The Soviets lost the moon. They didn't lose the space race. They were the first ones there, as you mentioned yourself. Satellites and people and space stations and whatnot - they did them all first. The moon, meh. Not enough to proclaim the US the winner.

Thank god someone pulled that up. Lets look at the Soviet contribution, if it weren't for all the work done with space stations and long term living in space, much of the much needed data to plan for a Mars mission wouldn't be possible.

It is funny how the US look at their own history with rose tinted glasses; you (Americans) really think that the Star Wars project was a new concept? please, space stations and the whole design was setup for a battle which included all fronters - just look at the most basic of Soviet books on the role of space in future warfare and you'll see that the US was atleast 10 years behind the Soviets in respects to where things would be heading.

Of course. The Mig had a very specific thing to do, and that was simply to fly up there, launch a few trick missiles and come back down. They weren't fighters really.


And the speed. And the height. And whether it could carry bombs. And so on.


All true, but the Migs are still neat. Just because if you pay the Russians, they'll fly you up to space in one.
http://www.incredible-adventures.com/edgeofspace.html

Right pretty much what I said it was a high speed (slower than an SR-71) high altitude (lower than the SR71) Mig. So it was inferior to the SR71 which um poerformed the exact same role better. The worry durring the cold war was that they had got ahead in air superiority (where they tied once at the very begining when both nations were basing their air superiority craft on the same German one). Basically the mig25 is a straw man. And you can also pay the spaceship one guys to take you past the edge of space. It is neat the way that they're converting some of the obsolete tech into comercial apps. I heard that they were going to refab the ICBMs for LEO satalite launches...

It is neat the way that they're converting some of the obsolete tech into comercial apps. I heard that they were going to refab the ICBMs for LEO satalite launches...
Well, finally they're using the stuff for a proper cause.

Well they were the first ones in orbit, but we beat them to the moon. My answer J.F.K. who got the people interested in the idea. He had the support of the American people.

I was saying we should have done the same thing decades ago. I've got a weird theory on Detante. Once you have enough to kill everyone spend your money somewhere else.

A simple question, really, but an intriguing one.

The Soviet Union really had all the advantages. The first Satellite, the First Orbital flight, and the first spacewalk were all Soviet Firsts. They were also the first to send a probe to the Moon. They had a nearly unlimited budget, and some very smart people. And they lost.

Why?

THEY HAD NO COMPETITION FOR GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS...so they then stagnated and became complacent with their dachas.

and i don't see how they lost?

and this from an american,maybe the moon race...but i believe that is also a bit of a debate in and of itself...you know the whole conspiracy thing.

Thank god someone pulled that up. Lets look at the Soviet contribution, if it weren't for all the work done with space stations and long term living in space, much of the much needed data to plan for a Mars mission wouldn't be possible.

It is funny how the US look at their own history with rose tinted glasses; you (Americans) really think that the Star Wars project was a new concept? please, space stations and the whole design was setup for a battle which included all fronters - just look at the most basic of Soviet books on the role of space in future warfare and you'll see that the US was atleast 10 years behind the Soviets in respects to where things would be heading.

"you americans"?

kinda a bit obvious where your opinion lies.

and if i must say..i am a bit offended..."us americans" are made up from people from all over the world with compassionate views/awful views/many different religous and non religous preferences..yet..."you foreigners"..lol..like to lump us all together as 1 big entity,either cause your jealous of our success or your just plain bitter that you aint got what we have.

oh,and where is the vaunted socialist paradise and there space race?
in the trash heap of history....or are the soviets still around..thats about all you need to know about who "won the space race"

if you are defunct/dead/impotent/nothing...then you cant really be the winner now can ya.

we are still here...so a rational person would say we won...we ,as in this huge awesome melting pot of a nation.

if i took your comment out of context..which i may have...i apologise...but my point still stands,we are an entity,and the soviets are a failed exsperiment

THEY HAD NO COMPETITION FOR GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS...so they then stagnated and became complacent with their dachas.

What the fuck is a 'dracha'?

you know that one of the main guys in the space program was the guy who invented the V2 Rocket for hitler right

"Once the rockets are up,
Who cares where they come down,
That's not my department,
Says Wernher von Braun"

What the fuck is a 'dracha'?

A dacha is a Russian summer house (the middle class and better ones also had saunas), and these were often used by high-level members of the Communist Party to discuss matters of state, in particular those that were at least in some way involved with intrigue against other major Party heads.

They're kind of like a private meeting place for Party elites to meet.

http://www.cromwell-intl.com/travel/pictures/russia-dacha.jpg

A dacha is a Russian summer house (the middle class and better ones also had saunas), and these were often used by high-level members of the Communist Party to discuss matters of state, in particular those that were at least in some way involved with intrigue against other major Party heads.

Apologies. I read 'dacha' as 'dracha' and was thinking about 'drachmas'. My mistake. I did even go and do a web search for 'dracha' and turned up some Polish sites and a couple of roguelike/rpg sites. Too late at night for these eyes, obviously.

A simple question, really, but an intriguing one.

The Soviet Union really had all the advantages. The first Satellite, the First Orbital flight, and the first spacewalk were all Soviet Firsts. They were also the first to send a probe to the Moon. They had a nearly unlimited budget, and some very smart people. And they lost.

Why?
....the best answer i can give is that the soviet union, came up with little to non on their own in terms of new technology, and their early rocket and satellite programs were based almost entirely on germany technology and research.

Apologies. I read 'dacha' as 'dracha' and was thinking about 'drachmas'. My mistake. I did even go and do a web search for 'dracha' and turned up some Polish sites and a couple of roguelike/rpg sites. Too late at night for these eyes, obviously.

Well, if you ever go back to ancient Greece, drachmas will be very useful...

"you americans"?

kinda a bit obvious where your opinion lies.

and if i must say..i am a bit offended..."us americans" are made up from people from all over the world with compassionate views/awful views/many different religous and non religous preferences..yet..."you foreigners"..lol..like to lump us all together as 1 big entity,either cause your jealous of our success or your just plain bitter that you aint got what we have.

oh,and where is the vaunted socialist paradise and there space race?
in the trash heap of history....or are the soviets still around..thats about all you need to know about who "won the space race"

if you are defunct/dead/impotent/nothing...then you cant really be the winner now can ya.

we are still here...so a rational person would say we won...we ,as in this huge awesome melting pot of a nation.

if i took your comment out of context..which i may have...i apologise...but my point still stands,we are an entity,and the soviets are a failed exsperiment

Ah, the pathetic scream of the american, "you don't like us, because you're jealous" and "you hate us because of our freedoms" - sunshine, I wouldn't want to live in the US for all the cute looking twinks in china - please, the US is a racist, xenophobic, christian fundamentalist ridden country in a continent with the only resembelance of normality comes from either your northern neighbours or your less well off cousins in the south.

If there is a country I am envious of, it would be owning a nice little house off the coast of Spain where I can enjoy the sunsets, the cute guys, the great food and culture - so yeah, as you can imagine, the US is pretty much on the lower half of my 'must visit before I die' locations, playing only second to North Korea, baring a revolution which might push North Korea on the 'must see' list of countries.

....the best answer i can give is that the soviet union, came up with little to non on their own in terms of new technology, and their early rocket and satellite programs were based almost entirely on germany technology and research.

Or the fact that their programme had different goals than the US - space was part of the over all military machine, sure, there were some small civilian applications, but by and large, it was a military affair whose purpose was for defence purposes.

Exactly. Use one alphabet per post goddammit!the CCCP won the space race..

I said "CCCP"... Sue me :D

T

And like I said, they paid a much bigger price for their tech. than we ever would have considered.


Heh... at the time, soviet leadership probably thought differently.

"Hahaha, look at those foolish americans, they wasted so much more money than us on it. We spent less - so what if some people died, people don't cost millions to replace ;-) "

Thank god we live in a country where that's considered a greater cost...

It's nice when oppressive governments dissolve because of their incompetence, it's a much nicer way to go than bloody revolutions. It's not nice when they manage to kill millions on the way, that's just as bad as a bloody revolution.

Exactly. Use one alphabet per post goddammit!

Фuכﺝ þaΘ.

A dacha is a Russian summer house (the middle class and better ones also had saunas), and these were often used by high-level members of the Communist Party to discuss matters of state, in particular those that were at least in some way involved with intrigue against other major Party heads.

They're kind of like a private meeting place for Party elites to meet.

http://www.cromwell-intl.com/travel/pictures/russia-dacha.jpg

Not all are that fancy. My parents/grandparents had one - the house they mostly built it themselves, they just got the land for free from the government. Nice place, I used to spend the summers there when I was little. Has a plot of land, they grow various yummy fruits, vegetables, berries, and not-so-yummy but pretty flowers.

They did have a half-finished sauna - my grandfather never quite finished polishing it off, but it's usable. I remember it kind of being progressively more and more built every year that I came back.

There's a pretty large community of those dachas - not rich people, as far as I can tell. Though there are the rich-people-dachas too.

I would argue that they even lost. The other list of firsts is more impressive than the moon landing, to me. If you compare the changes wrought by the moon landing to those wrought by satellites and spacewalks... plus of course the fact that more "firsts" were on the Soviet scoreboard.


Yeah but who won the cold war?


Nananananananananana! :D

Ah, the pathetic scream of the american, "you don't like us, because you're jealous" and "you hate us because of our freedoms" - sunshine, I wouldn't want to live in the US for all the cute looking twinks in china - please, the US is a racist, xenophobic, christian fundamentalist ridden country in a continent with the only resembelance of normality comes from either your northern neighbours or your less well off cousins in the south.

If there is a country I am envious of, it would be owning a nice little house off the coast of Spain where I can enjoy the sunsets, the cute guys, the great food and culture - so yeah, as you can imagine, the US is pretty much on the lower half of my 'must visit before I die' locations, playing only second to North Korea, baring a revolution which might push North Korea on the 'must see' list of countries.

I'm glad Europeans like you hold such biased and uninformed opinions about my home country...whatever keeps you guys across the ocean is fine by me. For the record, I hold similar opinions about Europe. Especially that dump called Sweden.

Yeah but who won the cold war?

Its still too soon to tell.

They won, because everyone knows what Sputnik is. I don't think the world has cared about the moon since Apollo 13.

Ah, the pathetic scream of the american, "you don't like us, because you're jealous" and "you hate us because of our freedoms" - sunshine, I wouldn't want to live in the US for all the cute looking twinks in china - please, the US is a racist, xenophobic, christian fundamentalist ridden country in a continent with the only resembelance of normality comes from either your northern neighbours or your less well off cousins in the south.

If there is a country I am envious of, it would be owning a nice little house off the coast of Spain where I can enjoy the sunsets, the cute guys, the great food and culture - so yeah, as you can imagine, the US is pretty much on the lower half of my 'must visit before I die' locations, playing only second to North Korea, baring a revolution which might push North Korea on the 'must see' list of countries.

And spain is full of Basque terrorists.

New zealand is full of ignorant sheep herders.

North korea is full of....kim jung il

Generalizations are great. Every country has it's Fred phelps, and just because America is Christian, doesn't mean we are racist, xenophobic (Afraid of space aliens? Sort of....we build space guns and sort, so I guess....) or whatever the hell you said.

Europeon.

Ah, the pathetic scream of the american, "you don't like us, because you're jealous" and "you hate us because of our freedoms" - sunshine, I wouldn't want to live in the US for all the cute looking twinks in china - please, the US is a racist, xenophobic, christian fundamentalist ridden country in a continent with the only resembelance of normality comes from either your northern neighbours or your less well off cousins in the south.

If there is a country I am envious of, it would be owning a nice little house off the coast of Spain where I can enjoy the sunsets, the cute guys, the great food and culture - so yeah, as you can imagine, the US is pretty much on the lower half of my 'must visit before I die' locations, playing only second to North Korea, baring a revolution which might push North Korea on the 'must see' list of countries.:rolleyes:

I cannot thank you enough for telling me more about myself than I myself know.

Its still too soon to tell.

Soviet union...soviet union.......where are they again? Can't seem to recall.

the CCCP (Russians) won the space race..Yeah but who won the cold war?US

Soviet union...soviet union.......where are they again? Can't seem to recall.
Gee gee, last I checked they seemed to have....*gasp*...fallen!?!?!?!? :eek:

Madness!

The U.S., winning? We cannot have this! Let's claim that they never won it! And if they complain, we'll scream and cry and kick and shout that they have a victim complex.

Soviet union...soviet union.......where are they again? Can't seem to recall.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the current 'War On Terror' is the direct result of the strategy the US employed in an attempt to win the Cold War. It is fairly clear that the Eastern Bloc lost the Cold War*, but it remains to be seen if the West will also lose.


* at least when the Cold War is viewed as a simple question of survival of ideologies.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the current 'War On Terror' is the direct result of the strategy the US employed in an attempt to win the Cold War. It is fairly clear that the Eastern Bloc lost the Cold War*, but it remains to be seen if the West will also lose.


* at least when the Cold War is viewed as a simple question of survival of ideologies.
Which is like saying that the Soviet Union lost WW2 because of The Cold War being a direct result of their occupation of Eastern Europe.

...I think I used that right.

A simple question, really, but an intriguing one.

The Soviet Union really had all the advantages. The first Satellite, the First Orbital flight, and the first spacewalk were all Soviet Firsts. They were also the first to send a probe to the Moon. They had a nearly unlimited budget, and some very smart people. And they lost.

Why?

Many reasons... the mismangement of funds, the focus on the power of the rocket propulsion system rather than the shuttle design, lack of a central agency for all research, a slowing economy that resulted in less money than anticipated for the space program, increased military funding for non missle based projects...

take your pick

Actually, the US did not beat the Soviets to the moon.

The US never made it to the moon!

That whole "landing" bit was filmed in a Hollywood studio. It was all a sham just to create the image that the US won the space race, which even the Soviets believed, and thus lost heart for socialism. It was the hoax that ended communism!

:p

Which is like saying that the Soviet Union lost WW2 because of The Cold War being a direct result of their occupation of Eastern Europe.

...I think I used that right.

I think I follow your reasoning, although I had to read through it a couple of times...

You're saying that the USSR came out of WWII with a white elephant?

I think I follow your reasoning, although I had to read through it a couple of times...

You're saying that the USSR came out of WWII with a white elephant?
I thought elephants were gray...

If that's a figure of speech, I'm confused. :confused:

I think I follow your reasoning, although I had to read through it a couple of times...

You're saying that the USSR came out of WWII with a white elephant?

Possibly, Eastern Germany provided good tech for a while, but what with the sealing off of borders and the wall, it might have been less practical to hold onto it than to simply consolidate what they already had.

I thought elephants were gray...

If that's a figure of speech, I'm confused. :confused:

White elephants are a figure of speech - the story goes like this: they are the most prized of all elephants but take an incredible amount of upkeep. Anecdote tells us that in India the King would sometimes grant a present of a white elephant to one of his Lords, and thus apparently honour him greatly, but actually the gift was a poisoned chalice as looking after the elephant would often bankrupt the man who received it and so remove him from his position of power.

Possibly, Eastern Germany provided good tech for a while, but what with the sealing off of borders and the wall, it might have been less practical to hold onto it than to simply consolidate what they already had.


Speaking personally I think the USSR was doomed as soon as Stalin came to power: Eastern Europe was all just a sideshow.

Which is like saying that the Soviet Union lost WW2 because of The Cold War being a direct result of their occupation of Eastern Europe.No.. But The Soviets lost the Cold war as a result of the WW2 Dynamincs...

WW2 had a huge toll on the USSR..
in human lives and economic means

No.. But The Soviets lost the Cold war as a result of the WW2 Dynamincs...

WW2 had a huge toll on the USSR..
in human lives and economic means

The USSR was hardly in a good state before WWII though, it must be said: trying to catapult a nation spanning eleven (?) time zones right from what was effectively the feudal period to being a industrialised twentieth century state was never going to be easy.

one time i wrote a song about the Space Race. it ought to answer some of your questions.

http://myspace.com/radiumgirls

Speaking personally I think the USSR was doomed as soon as Stalin came to power: Eastern Europe was all just a sideshow.

I completely agree. Lets assume that Lenin lasted a few more years, the "New Economic Plan" continued, which basically you had a one party mixed market system that was pretty liberal (small L liberal), and lets assume Trosky was the succcessor, then sure, different situation would have eventuated - things started to come unstuck, however, with the war in Afghanistan, the rot at the core of the actual system and the lack of realisation that the system was failing, and using that time to gradually work towards a more market based system - not necessarily whole sale priviatisation but moving back to a more system of 'hights of industry' controled by the government, and small fry owned by individuals.

I'm glad Europeans like you hold such biased and uninformed opinions about my home country...whatever keeps you guys across the ocean is fine by me. For the record, I hold similar opinions about Europe. Especially that dump called Sweden.

Damn, I don't know where to start; I'm from New Zealand - get a clue.

And spain is full of Basque terrorists.

New zealand is full of ignorant sheep herders.

North korea is full of....kim jung il

Generalizations are great. Every country has it's Fred phelps, and just because America is Christian, doesn't mean we are racist, xenophobic (Afraid of space aliens? Sort of....we build space guns and sort, so I guess....) or whatever the hell you said.

Europeon.

I'm European? <looks around confused>

As far as losing the space race goes, they undoubtedly won. Which country was it that had a permanent manned station in orbit? I'll give you sprung-off-the-United States of America boys a hint: it's BIGGER than a bread box, it's not a toaster, and they're now known as Russia. Screw going to the moon. That's like losing a race of German-language domination because you've never been to Austria, but speak perfectly, while the opposition once went there, and can't tell the difference between "Der" and "Die".
As far as the USSR falling apart for whatever reason you might want to throw out, it was really caused by Boris, who was an ass. Gorbachev was a great politician and a great economist, and didn't screw over the common people every other day. Had the damn Yeltsin man not taking away power from Gorbachev, things would indoubtedly have turned out much the better, and a Communist state would've actually been a Communist state, rather than a dictatorship mixed-market. I mean, he ALLOWED Yeltsin to beat his favored man, and as party head, that's pretty damn crazy, seeing as how it had been before this time. A Democratic Communist USSR under Gorbachev would've been beautiful. But, apparently, the USSR fell apart because of internal instability, according to y'all. I call BS, but if that's what you think, I won't argue after this post. And yes, I'm from the US. Neither Sweden nor New Zealand. So don't call me a hatin' feriner.

And yeah, Didn't you know New Zealand was in Europe? That's why they call 'em Kiwis. Because Europe produces, annually, half the world supply of kiwis. Magic kiwis.

America was closer to the Moon!

think about this mountains will put more gravitational pull on the Moon due to being closer and having a larger mass.

now the Himalayas are to the South of the USSR thus pulling the Moon away whereas the rocky mountains in the US pull the Moon closer

it's like Mexico it's corrupt as hell

The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics lost the space race for they were not able to compete economicly, there command markets just couldn't compete economicly with the free market

Actually yes better. Not great but a step up. At least it was better there in '99 then in '88 when't the last time you went there?

Living standars in russia were as of 99 worse then in 88, they are as of today werse then in 88.

This is if we look at..
Health care, education, consumer spending in terms of goods, phones\cars\etc..s per person

The soviet Union in 86 had fewer people suffering from Tuberculosis then the West, this becuase of free health care..

The only reason why so many western people today think that the soviet union was so bad to live in was couse the winner writes history, and the SSSR is tragicly gone

because Korolev died

Living standars in russia were as of 99 worse then in 88, they are as of today werse then in 88.

This is if we look at..
Health care, education, consumer spending in terms of goods, phones\cars\etc..s per person

The soviet Union in 86 had fewer people suffering from Tuberculosis then the West, this becuase of free health care..

The only reason why so many western people today think that the soviet union was so bad to live in was couse the winner writes history, and the SSSR is tragicly gone

Exactly what I was gonna point out.

Apart from the few wealthy oligarchs that emerged from the breakup of the USSR, living standards have *decreased*. Got worse. Dropped. Gone down. Lowered. However you want to put it, it is a fact - the fall of the USSR has resulted in lower standards of living for nearly all its former citizens.

Exactly what I was gonna point out.

Apart from the few wealthy oligarchs that emerged from the breakup of the USSR, living standards have *decreased*. Got worse. Dropped. Gone down. Lowered. However you want to put it, it is a fact - the fall of the USSR has resulted in lower standards of living for nearly all its former citizens.

right on, funny thing, now that I have ended up in the west as a refugee, and people tell me about how bad they think it was under communisam, and then I tell them we were better off then you, and i know it from experience, I am not from the SSSR bye the way, but from Bosnia former Jugoslavia, which is now, under capitalisam and "democracy" a shithole in the lack of a better word

While the U.S. was going up-and-down on the Space Shuttle in the 80s the Soviets were constructing the MIR Station and having a permanent orbital facility in space.

Americans made a bad decision in investing in the Space Shuttle and should have kept with the capsule design until a better spaceplane could have been developed. In all actuality, a Spaceplane is rather worthless, you don't really need wings in space...

Who won the Space Race? No one has won yet. My fellow Americans are in danger of becoming like the Hare in Aesop's Fable The Tortoise and the Hare. Comfortable with their lead, dismissing the potential which they possess.

The US possesses, the most satellites, has conducted the most robotic missions to the other planets.

US Firsts:
First successful landing on the moon.
First successful landing on Mars
First spacecraft to visit Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune
First orbital space telescope
the list goes on and on and on and on and on and on

The US has made valuable contributions to humanities understanding of the cosmos and earned the respect of all mankind in these peaceful pursuits of human understanding as it continues this enterprising spirit of expanding the frontiers of mankind.