NationStates Jolt Archive

Why does everyone assume a religion which sends you to heaven/hell/whatever based soley on what you do is a good religion?

Simple question, probably just get flames, but I really don't understand it. Why is a religion that isn't based soley on getting what you deserve any good?

REVISED QUESTION:

Why can't religion be about getting what you DON'T deserve?

Perhaps what you deserve is determined by what you do?

Just a guess here.

Perhaps what you deserve is determined by what you do?

Just a guess here.

Well yes, but does religion have to be about giving you what you deserve?

Why is a religion that isn't based soley on getting what you deserve any good?

It is based soley on what you deserve. :)

It all boils down to doing good and progressing

or

doing bad and becoming stuck

simplified but that is the basic idea :cool:

Well yes, but does religion have to be about giving you what you deserve?

Religion is merely the sociological entity through which God tells His children how to be happy. It is not truly about heaven or hell. It is a formula for true happiness.

Religion, especially those with a Higher Being[s] are also about faith and belief not just deeds.

what other system would you use?

the ancient greeks and romans had gods who were as fickle as the weather. you didnt get what you deserved but what they were willing to give you as long as you kissed their ass and they hadnt made a different deal with someone else. they could turn on you at any time.

a system based on "if i do what im supposed to i get the prize at the end" is much more soothing than one where things go wrong at a whim of not just your god but a bunch of others who might suddenly take a dislike to you.

Given the option between a religion that says that I'm good because I'm a good person and one that says that I'm good because I've joined the right religion (although my sins may have increased in number), I'd rather take the former.

Telling people that they're going to heaven for doing good deeds, instead of telling them they're going to heaven for believing in the 'right' God(s) encourages more personal responsibility, as a person who is in one of the latter religions just has to go to church, repent what they've done and their soul is 'cleansed' of what they did, regardless of how horrible it is.

If there were a God, (s)he sure as hell does't seem to often give people what they deserve in life. Expecting this pattern to change once you are dead seems to be a case of extreme wishful thinking....


"Dear God WTF did I do to deserve all THAT?"

"Nothin'. Just messing with you!"

"Oh. I see. But now that it's my judgement day all that changes right? I get judged on my merits?"


"Yeah.... that's it! *Chortle* Now, ummmm, step through onto the elevator over there and see what happens while I flip this coin here..... best two out of three?"



Petty vindictive Gods make a lot more sense to me! Especially if you believe that he made us in his image..

Why can't religion be about getting what you DON'T deserve?

Why should anyone be given what they don't deserve?

Why does everyone assume a religion which sends you to heaven/hell/whatever based soley on what you do is a good religion?

Simple question, probably just get flames, but I really don't understand it. Why is a religion that isn't based soley on getting what you deserve any good?

REVISED QUESTION:

Why can't religion be about getting what you DON'T deserve?

"Be good. Do as you're told. Say your prayers. Come to church. Eat your veggies. We'll still torture you for all eternity, but you'll feel better about yourself." :D

Why does everyone assume a religion which sends you to heaven/hell/whatever based soley on what you do is a good religion?

Simple question, probably just get flames, but I really don't understand it. Why is a religion that isn't based soley on getting what you deserve any good?

REVISED QUESTION:

Why can't religion be about getting what you DON'T deserve?I consider a 'Good Religion' one that feels right to me.

Why does everyone assume a religion which sends you to heaven/hell/whatever based soley on what you do is a good religion?
Nah; but then, that's not really what it's about. It's about bliss and torment, and those are human states of mind (i.e. they are our doing, no one and nothing else's).

REVISED QUESTION:

Why can't religion be about getting what you DON'T deserve?
Wouldn't that be lovely? But then, what if you don't deserve torture?

If there were a God, (s)he sure as hell does't seem to often give people what they deserve in life...
Are you working on a martyr syndrome? ;)

REVISED QUESTION:

Why can't religion be about getting what you DON'T deserve?
Christianity is about getting what you don't deserve.

It all boils down to doing good and progressing
or
doing bad and becoming stuck
So why not just not bother with the whole religion thing and do good anyway? Or is it a case of 'believe, or go to hell'? Which is a stupid way to conduct any religion, as it means that hell would be far larger than heaven, and so in a war between the two, hell would clearly win.

Christianity is about getting what you don't deserve.
Ouch. :) Good point.

Exactly right. The whole point of Christianity is that Christ supposedly died in order to save our souls even though we sinned against him assuming that he was actually God.

Exactly right. The whole point of Christianity is that Christ supposedly died in order to save our souls even though we sinned against him assuming that he was actually God.
I don't think that's quite right. Mankind did not sin against Jesus.

According to Freud, the whole point of religion is to act as a sort of code of morals that binds society even without laws. I think it is probably all just some old fireside story from the days of yore blown way out of proportion.

I don't think that's quite right. Mankind did not sin against Jesus.
actually if you wanted to get over analytical we did kinda, but only if you believe in the trinity, so then Jesus is God, and so if we sin against God then we are sinning against Jesus, but not reall..........I mean......nevermind. :(

I don't think that's quite right. Mankind did not sin against Jesus.

You're right, mankind sinned against God, so God sacrificed his only son in order to save us (from his punishment)...

According to Freud, the whole point of religion is to act as a sort of code of morals that binds society even without laws. I think it is probably all just some old fireside story from the days of yore blown way out of proportion.
cultural fables and folktales are a lot of what religions are about, right enough.

Elgesh']cultural fables and folktales are a lot of what religions are about, right enough.
Not quite; cultural folktales and fables are not what the religion is about. It is about enlightenment, the information attainable through the stories.

why don't you just make your own religion if you don't like the ones around?

Why does everyone assume a religion which sends you to heaven/hell/whatever based soley on what you do is a good religion?

Simple question, probably just get flames, but I really don't understand it. Why is a religion that isn't based soley on getting what you deserve any good?

REVISED QUESTION:

Why can't religion be about getting what you DON'T deserve?

The most logical answer to this question is that, once the religion changes what you get and the dependance on what you deserve, that becomes 'good'.

As 'Good' is defined internally, it can vary on what it means. If you're making up a religion then sure, you can make all kinds of wacky rules like beating children for no reason and giving bonus rewards for especially impressive acts of theft. These things are then GOOD through the lens of your religion.

When you get people who study infernal religions and claim to worship and do "bad" things we get term confusion, for the moment it is more beneficial for you to do "Bad" things within a religion that thing becomes the "Good" thing.

Moreover, for those saying that Heaven/Hell is a bad way to conduct a religion, you are assuming two things.

1. That you, or I, or anyone else knows anything about how to run the universe.

2. That the religion in question is -fake- that it was fabricated by people brainstorming for the most effective farce to level upon their people. If you debate like that you've lost, because you are assuming the invalidity of the religion to make your point.

If a heaven/hell divide does exist then YES, it is GOOD because it's all there is and the guy who tells you what good and bad it says it's good. It's that simple. It's actually not relative at all.

The reason religion is about getting what you deserve is because the religions which believe they're about getting what you deserve (mostly Islam, Christianity, Judaism) went and killed off all the pagans who believed in petty, fickle gods. So now we have moralistic religions.

I don't think that's quite right. Mankind did not sin against Jesus.

If I recall, we nailed him to a cross for no good reason. If that's not sinning against him, that's one HECK of a hazing ritual!

If I recall, we nailed him to a cross for no good reason. If that's not sinning against him, that's one HECK of a hazing ritual!
Hey, don't look at me. I wasn't there. ;)

The Romans and the Priests thought they had pretty good reasons for doing what they did.

The point, though, I think, is that Jesus wasn't God until after he died; before then, he was a man, and "sin" is against God, not man.

why don't you just make your own religion if you don't like the ones around?
It works a bit like economics. If you try and set up a business in an already saturated market, it is unlikely that your business will be very successful, and soon it will go bust. Similarly, if you tried to set up a religion now, it wouldn't succeed because there are too many established ones out there already.

Also, if you tried to set up a religion now, people would say it was just a whackjob cult, and would probably run a sweepstake on how long it'll be until you and your followers are found dead in a field having committed suicide in anticipation of the Rapture.

If I recall, we nailed him to a cross for no good reason. Sounds like sinning against him to me.
i dont recall getting a vote on that one. same with whether or not eve should eat the apple. why should i be unworthy because of something someone else did a really long time ago??

You're right, mankind sinned against God, so God sacrificed his only son in order to save us (from his punishment)...

Actually He volunteered to offer us mercy through His sacrifice.

THere is a thing called Justice. Justice requires a punishment for every wrong.
If left to just criminal and Justice we could never escape the punishment (which is separation from God) except if a 3rd party intervened.

We broke a law (or many).
The law states that no unclean thing may enter in God's presence.
Christ came and suffered the pain for our crime.
Being the only perfect person he was able to set the conditions of mercy.
So now we are answerable to Christ who in turn answers to God.
Christ extends us mercy if we follow His path.
If we reject that path He cannot force us back on and we reneg said mercy.

Story time:

Its like a man who went into debt to buy a home. Under the law he had to pay off the debt in a certain time or suffer the consequences. The time comes and he cannot pay. The law comes and demands he go to prison and lose all he possesses. With just he and the law there is no escape.

But say that man has a friend, who knows the man is good at heart but foolish. The friend comes and offers to pay the man's debt if the man will become his friend's debtor. His friend would set the rules for the repayment. If he accepts then his friend pays the debt and the law is satisfied. The man gets to reclaim his life and lands. He is not without responsibility though. He must follow through with his new contract.

Thus is mercy brought into the equation. It requires a third entity. Christ.

Hey, don't look at me. I wasn't there. ;)

The Romans and the Priests thought they had pretty good reasons for doing what they did.

The point, though, I think, is that Jesus wasn't God until after he died; before then, he was a man, and "sin" is against God, not man.

Well, from what I understand the reason was "You're making people noisy"... but now we're getting into opinions.

Now, as for Jesus "Becoming" God after he died... That's an interesting veiwpoint (which I don't agree with of course...) That could make you.. a liberal Hindu? A Mormon?

i dont recall getting a vote on that one. same with whether or not eve should eat the apple. why should i be unworthy because of something someone else did a really long time ago??
The real question, I think, is "Why am I unworthy/sinful" at all? What a horrible starting point for a philosophy.

On the other hand, I suppose if you start at the bottom, then it's all uphill from there. :)

If I recall, we nailed him to a cross for no good reason. If that's not sinning against him, that's one HECK of a hazing ritual!
Well, the Romans felt that if they let him continue preaching then they'd lose control of what is now Israel, and that area, and they didn't want that to happen. For them, it was a good reason.

Although I like Cabra West's post in this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=462125&page=6) thread -
I think I'd like to be Pontius Pilate.

I'd just let Jesus go. I'd refuse to crucify him, and then sit and watch how Christianity is looking for another basis to spread their story.

"It's a miracle, I tell you. He died in his sleep when he was 60, and rose again the next day! What do you mean, it's a lousy miracle?"

Christianity is about getting what you don't deserve.
well now if i was getting what i didnt deserve, i wouldnt have to believe in god, accept jesus christ as my personal lord and savior and live a moral life in order to get into heaven now would i? the sacrifice of jesus would be enough for everyone to get in, christian or not

to work off the phrase in "animal farm"...

no one deserves it but some people dont deserve it more than others.

i dont recall getting a vote on that one. same with whether or not eve should eat the apple. why should i be unworthy because of something someone else did a really long time ago??

Oh, well lucky for you you can remain out of the sinful demographic by simply obeying the rules for right and wrong.

Wait, you mean you've done something wrong?

Sacre bleu! Turns out you're no better than the rest of us, apple-voter or not.

Well, from what I understand the reason was "You're making people noisy"... but now we're getting into opinions.

Now, as for Jesus "Becoming" God after he died... That's an interesting veiwpoint (which I don't agree with of course...) That could make you.. a liberal Hindu? A Mormon?
It's not so much a "becoming", as in a change of state, as it is a shedding of the flesh. God cannot appear in the flesh.

I don't belong to any organized religion.

The real question, I think, is "Why am I unworthy/sinful" at all? What a horrible starting point for a philosophy.

On the other hand, I suppose if you start at the bottom, then it's all uphill from there. :)
yeah thats one of the (not so many) things i dont like about christianity. the need to convince people that they are miserable horrid sinners so that they will buy into the need to be saved.

Now, as for Jesus "Becoming" God after he died... That's an interesting veiwpoint (which I don't agree with of course...) That could make you.. a liberal Hindu? A Mormon?


Careful now :)

that smacks of beligerence :)

I'm a Mormon and Jesus did not become God when He died. ;)

He is God's Son. A divine being, but NOT God the Father. (though that alone could spark a rage of debates :) )

Well, the Romans felt that if they let him continue preaching then they'd lose control of what is now Israel, and that area, and they didn't want that to happen. For them, it was a good reason.

Although I like Cabra West's post in this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=462125&page=6) thread -

"For Them" doesn't cut the cheese, I'm afraid. It might be good -for me- to say, (insert horrible atrocity here), but it doesn't stop it from being wrong. The good, and the sin, are internally defined, and most importantly, they are not relative.

Careful now :)

that smacks of beligerence :)

I'm a Mormon and Jesus did not become God when He died. ;)

He is God's Son. A divine being, but NOT God the Father. (though that alone could spark a rage of debates :) )

I don't mean to offend, I was simply refering to the whole... doctrine of assenscion bit, that suggests that you can become a god if you're male and have lived a righteous life, or something similar. Rar! You're the Mormon, you clarify. You know exactly what I'm talkin' about.

Oh, well lucky for you you can remain out of the sinful demographic by simply obeying the rules for right and wrong.

Wait, you mean you've done something wrong?

Sacre bleu! Turns out you're no better than the rest of us, apple-voter or not.
well now i dont recall claiming to be perfect. all i said is i refuse to take responsibility for killing jesus or eating the apple (of course i believe the apple story is an allegory)

Well yes, but does religion have to be about giving you what you deserve?

No, of course not. Some religions focus on that, and some people are very comfortable with a karmic ideal - you do good, you get good; you do bad, you get bad. Of course, it doesn't often seem that way, at least not in this life.

A lot of religions actually aren't based in what you deserve at all. Most forms of Christianity, for instance, point-blank state that no one deserves salvation - that we all fall short. But those who have faith and try their best to meet the ideal will receive it anyways. When it comes right down to it, most religions I can think of fall along a "try-your-best" mentality.

well now if i was getting what i didnt deserve, i wouldnt have to believe in god, accept jesus christ as my personal lord and savior and live a moral life in order to get into heaven now would i?
what do you think you can do to "deserve" heaven?

the answer is nothing you do makes you "deserve" heaven. God's grace is a gift, you have to choose to accept it.

If someone offered you a million dollars and you said "I don't want a million dollars, I don't need your charity I am doing fine on my own" then would you be a millionaire? no, because you didn't accept the gift. If you did accept it and were now a millionaire does that mean that all of the sudden you deserved the money? no, you didn't do anything for it, you just accepted the gift.

"For Them" doesn't cut the cheese, I'm afraid. It might be good -for me- to say, (insert horrible atrocity here), but it doesn't stop it from being wrong. The good, and the sin, are internally defined, and most importantly, they are not relative.
Well 'for them' should cut the cheese, because it was their decision. Had you put it down to a ballot of all humanity at the time, maybe the result would've been different, but it would have been impractical and Jesus would probably have died of old age by the time the votes had been counted. And then appealed against. Four times.
And why do you get to say that it was wrong for the Romans to crucify Jesus? Like I said, they felt they had a good reason to kill him. Just like the state of California felt it had good reason to kill 'Tookie' Williams. Just because you feel it was wrong for Jesus to die at the hands of the Romans doesn't mean, according to their laws, that it was.

If someone offered you a million dollars and you said "I don't want a million dollars, I don't need your charity I am doing fine on my own" then would you be a millionaire?
No, but you'd be spiritually rich.

:)

No, but you'd be spiritually rich.

:)
I think you missed the point of my little parable;) :p

The point, though, I think, is that Jesus wasn't God until after he died; before then, he was a man, and "sin" is against God, not man.


Hmmmmm, there's a name for this heresy, although I don't remember it.

Of course, I don't put much stock in what the church (any given version of it) has and has not declared heretical, but the idea you just stated (that Christ was not God while being a man) is generally rejected by most of Christianity.

I think you missed the point of my little parable;) :p
I made a better point. :D

Hmmmmm, there's a name for this heresy, although I don't remember it.

Of course, I don't put much stock in what the church (any given version of it) has and has not declared heretical, but the idea you just stated (that Christ was not God while being a man) is generally rejected by most of Christianity.
I think the idea is from Gnosticism, but I don't recall off-hand.

Just because you feel it was wrong for Jesus to die at the hands of the Romans doesn't mean, according to their laws, that it was.
actually according to their laws he was put to death illegally. The Romans turned him over to the church who had no legal right to kill anyone, and there is the fact that he was found unanimously guilty which in their day would have been a mistrial.

what do you think you can do to "deserve" heaven?

the answer is nothing you do makes you "deserve" heaven. God's grace is a gift, you have to choose to accept it.

If someone offered you a million dollars and you said "I don't want a million dollars, I don't need your charity I am doing fine on my own" then would you be a millionaire? no, because you didn't accept the gift. If you did accept it and were now a millionaire does that mean that all of the sudden you deserved the money? no, you didn't do anything for it, you just accepted the gift.
well now. what if i dont know its been offered to me

what if, instead of the catholic atheist that i am, i were a buddhist in thailand who has never been exposed to christianity. a person like you are, no better or worse than anyone else.

why do YOU get into heaven and *I* dont? why didnt jesus die for MY sin? you may not have deserved it but why do *I* deserve it less??

there must be some reason why YOU got offered the million and i didnt. some critereon of worthiness.

well now. what if i dont know its been offered to me

what if, instead of the catholic atheist that i am, i were a buddhist in thailand who has never been exposed to christianity. a person like you are, no better or worse than anyone else.

why do YOU get into heaven and *I* dont? why didnt jesus die for MY sin? you may not have deserved it but why do *I* deserve it less??

there must be some reason why YOU got offered the million and i didnt. some critereon of worthiness.
Jesus died for everone's sin. I heavily support missionaries through my church that are going throughout the world to try to spread the gospel message to people who have not ever been exposed before. There are actually verses in the Bible that speak of how God can be seen in all creation. The great commission calls on Christians to go out into all the Earth proclaiming the good news. Nobody is more worthy than anyone else, we try to spread the message as best we can.

well now. what if i dont know its been offered to me

what if, instead of the catholic atheist that i am, i were a buddhist in thailand who has never been exposed to christianity. a person like you are, no better or worse than anyone else.

why do YOU get into heaven and *I* dont? why didnt jesus die for MY sin? you may not have deserved it but why do *I* deserve it less??

there must be some reason why YOU got offered the million and i didnt. some critereon of worthiness.
The problem with this scenario is that, if you are a Buddhist in Thailand who is unfamiliar with Christianity, then there is no "Heaven", and going there is a non-issue.

EDIT: And it should be the same for the atheist, but they too often get caught up in the idea that they should argue against Christianity from the inside.

well now. what if i dont know its been offered to me

what if, instead of the catholic atheist that i am, i were a buddhist in thailand who has never been exposed to christianity. a person like you are, no better or worse than anyone else.

why do YOU get into heaven and *I* dont? why didnt jesus die for MY sin? you may not have deserved it but why do *I* deserve it less??

there must be some reason why YOU got offered the million and i didnt. some critereon of worthiness.

Actually, a little known fact is that everyone will have a chance whether in this life or the next to hear and accept Christ. It is easier in this life, hence the importance of missionaries. But God will not condemn a good person for ignorance.

Actually, a little known fact is that everyone will have a chance whether in this life or the next to hear and accept Christ. It is easier in this life, hence the importance of missionaries. But God will not condemn a good person for ignorance.
do you have scriptural backing for that?

nobody is a good person, we are all sinners the wages of sin is death. it's not pretty but that's what the Bible says, I have found no verses that say "unless you just don't know"

I do believe in "age of accountability" meaning that children or people who can not understand go to heaven but to tell you the truth, I don't actually have any scriptural backing for that belief.

Actually, a little known fact is that everyone will have a chance whether in this life or the next to hear and accept Christ. It is easier in this life, hence the importance of missionaries. But God will not condemn a good person for ignorance.
Wow! That's convenient.

:D

Jesus died for everone's sin. I heavily support missionaries through my church that are going throughout the world to try to spread the gospel message to people who have not ever been exposed before. There are actually verses in the Bible that speak of how God can be seen in all creation. The great commission calls on Christians to go out into all the Earth proclaiming the good news. Nobody is more worthy than anyone else, we try to spread the message as best we can.

missionary work is nice but beside the point

it seems that my "thai self" is unworthy of heaven. through no apparent fault of my own jesus didnt die for MY sins (at least not enough for me to get into heaven on his sacrifice)

you may not deserve it but i deserve it less eh?

missionary work is nice but beside the point

it seems that my "thai self" is unworthy of heaven. through no apparent fault of my own jesus didnt die for MY sins (at least not enough for me to get into heaven on his sacrifice)

you may not deserve it but i deserve it less eh?
what gives you the idea that Jesus did not die for everyone's sins?

Actually, a little known fact is that everyone will have a chance whether in this life or the next to hear and accept Christ. It is easier in this life, hence the importance of missionaries. But God will not condemn a good person for ignorance.
thats a mormon belief eh? even an old atheist like me can accept god after death esp if one of my decendants gets me baptised by proxy....?

what gives you the idea that Jesus did not die for everyone's sins?
because i dont get into heaven. my sinless self does not qualify for heaven

its not a matter of "no one deserves it" if that were true either no one would get in or everyone would get in. certain people "deserve it" because they accept jesus christ as their lord and savior and certain people DONT deserve it because they are unable to do so.

it might make you feel better to suggest that its OK for some people to be barred from heaven because they reject the gift but BILLIONS of people on this earth were never aware that it was offered so how did they reject it??

because i dont get into heaven. my sinless self does not qualify for heaven

its not a matter of "no one deserves it" if that were true either no one would get in or everyone would get in. certain people "deserve it" because they accept jesus christ as their lord and savior and certain people DONT deserve it because they are unable to do so.
I know that's the party line, and I'm probably not helping by stating this again, but... Accepting Jesus is not a condition to "get into Heaven"; rather, acceptance of God is Heaven, after you have shed your earthly flesh.

because i dont get into heaven. my sinless self does not qualify for heaven
nobody is sinless.

its not a matter of "no one deserves it" if that were true either no one would get in or everyone would get in. certain people "deserve it" because they accept jesus christ as their lord and savior and certain people DONT deserve it because they are unable to do so.
I don't think you understand the meaning of a gift. You don't earn a gift, therefore you don't deserve it, even after you have accepted it.

it might make you feel better to suggest that its OK for some people to be barred from heaven because they reject the gift but BILLIONS of people on this earth were never aware that it was offered so how did they reject it??I have knowledge of verses that deal with the fact that God can be seen in all creation, I will have to get back to you with specific scriptural references though, because it's date night and my date will be here in about 10 minutes and I still haven't started getting ready.

nobody is sinless.


I don't think you understand the meaning of a gift. You don't earn a gift, therefore you don't deserve it, even after you have accepted it.

I have knowledge of verses that deal with the fact that God can be seen in all creation, I will have to get back to you with specific scriptural references though, because it's date night and my date will be here in about 10 minutes and I still haven't started getting ready.
not to worry, ill be here tomorrow.

have fun.

I know that's the party line, and I'm probably not helping by stating this again, but... Accepting Jesus is not a condition to "get into Heaven"; rather, acceptance of God is Heaven, after you have shed your earthly flesh.

perhaps jesus set things right so that we can have the right attitude and relastionship to god. jesus seems to have given us great advice as to how to live a good and happy life and, it seems to me, good requirement for not being a pain in the ass when you get to heaven (be nice, forgive people, dont be selfish, help those in need)

thats a mormon belief eh? even an old atheist like me can accept god after death esp if one of my decendants gets me baptised by proxy....?

yep, well sorta.

You'll get the chance over there to accept or reject Christ along with everyone else who didn't know about him.

Only trouble is, (And I'm not refering to you) if you were a hard head here, you'll be a hard head there.

"The same spirit that possesses your body today, that same spirit is the one which will guide you through the eternities."

IE. Death doesn't change who you are personality-wise.

So yes, any atheist, buddist, aboriginal, whatever will have the opportunity to hear the gospel after this life. If they have not already rejected it. God is just and merciful, but mercy can't save he who doesn't want to be saved. :)

yep, well sorta.

You'll get the chance over there to accept or reject Christ along with everyone else who didn't know about him.

Only trouble is, (And I'm not refering to you) if you were a hard head here, you'll be a hard head there.

"The same spirit that possesses your body today, that same spirit is the one which will guide you through the eternities."

IE. Death doesn't change who you are personality-wise.

So yes, any atheist, buddist, aboriginal, whatever will have the opportunity to hear the gospel after this life. If they have not already rejected it. God is just and merciful, but mercy can't save he who doesn't want to be saved. :)

i wonder what that would be like. if i found myself "alive" after death and being asked to accept jesus, i cant imagine my answer wouldnt be YES. but whose would? except for those who are so contrary that they are ultimately self destructive of course.

perhaps jesus set things right so that we can have the right attitude and relastionship to god.

Perhaps. Perhaps his purpose was to be a demonstration of God's love, so that people would turn to God and follow God out of love, rather than out of fear or wish for reward.

jesus seems to have given us great advice as to how to live a good and happy life and, it seems to me, good requirement for not being a pain in the ass when you get to heaven (be nice, forgive people, dont be selfish, help those in need)

Yes, a message that many all-too-often seem to ignore in their quest for the carrot and swinging of the stick.

perhaps jesus set things right so that we can have the right attitude and relastionship to god. jesus seems to have given us great advice as to how to live a good and happy life and, it seems to me, good requirement for not being a pain in the ass when you get to heaven (be nice, forgive people, dont be selfish, help those in need)
Jesus advice was not original, or new.

Technically speaking Christianity is about getting what you don't deserve, none of us deserve to go to heaven because we've all done wrong SOMEWHERE along the line, but Christ is giving us the chance to gain the free gift of going to heaven through accepting Him into our hearts. I mean think about it, with God being infinitely just, He cannot ignore a single sin, so if we all got what we deserve then there would be a problem.

Technically speaking Christianity is about getting what you don't deserve, none of us deserve to go to heaven because we've all done wrong SOMEWHERE along the line, but Christ is giving us the chance to gain the free gift of going to heaven through accepting Him into our hearts. I mean think about it, with God being infinitely just, He cannot ignore a single sin, so if we all got what we deserve then there would be a problem.
The problem I see with this is that it focuses on one thing we (allegedly) deserve to the exclusion of all else that we deserve, giving that one thing not only primary importance but priority. Why can't the priority be something good?

Why should anyone be given what they don't deserve?

Its called grace.

IE getting what we dont deserve because of Love.

(according to the Bible) if God gave us what we deserve, we would all be dead. Because the wages of sin are death. But he loved us enough to send Jesus to Earth in order so that we could get what we dont deserve. Eternal life in heaven

Its called grace.

IE getting what we dont deserve because of Love.

(according to the Bible) if God gave us what we deserve, we would all be dead. Because the wages of sin are death. But he loved us enough to send Jesus to Earth in order so that we could get what we dont deserve. Eternal life in heaven
But we already have love. ..or is our love flawed, too?

The reason religion is about getting what you deserve is because the religions which believe they're about getting what you deserve (mostly Islam, Christianity, Judaism) went and killed off all the pagans who believed in petty, fickle gods. So now we have moralistic religions.

Don't worry, we're making a comeback.

My relationship with my primary god usually goes along these lines:

Me: "O great Lord of the Red Land, Defender of the Barque of Millions of Years and Slayer of Apep, who is great of strength, please accept this offering! Dua Set! Dua Netjer! *henu*"

Set: "Okay, cool. Thanks for the lettuce, kid. Your incense sucks, by the way. Buy me something else. Were you thinking about Heru earlier? I know he has a nice backside, but keep your mind on the job. And clean this altar cloth."

Petty? Maybe. Fickle? Yep. Arrogant? Definitely. Wouldn't have Him any other way.

But we already have love. ..or is our love flawed, too?

Grace is God's love to us

Technically speaking Christianity is about getting what you don't deserve, none of us deserve to go to heaven because we've all done wrong SOMEWHERE along the line, but Christ is giving us the chance to gain the free gift of going to heaven through accepting Him into our hearts. I mean think about it, with God being infinitely just, He cannot ignore a single sin, so if we all got what we deserve then there would be a problem.
*shudder*

if god is infinitely just why are billions barred from heaven?

Okay sorry im trying to catch up with the topic :p

well now. what if i dont know its been offered to me

what if, instead of the catholic atheist that i am, i were a buddhist in thailand who has never been exposed to christianity. a person like you are, no better or worse than anyone else.

why do YOU get into heaven and *I* dont? why didnt jesus die for MY sin? you may not have deserved it but why do *I* deserve it less??

there must be some reason why YOU got offered the million and i didnt. some critereon of worthiness.

Okay, as far as the buddhist in thailand goes, if you look in Romans 2:10-16
it says (for those of you without a bible :))

10 But God will give glory, honor, and peace to all who do what is good, to the Jews first and also the Gentiles. 11 For God judges everyone by the same standard.
12 The Gentiles do not have the Law of Moses; they sin and are lost apart from the Law. The Jews have the Law; they sin and are judged by the Law.heres the important part13 For it is not by hearing the Law that people are put right with God, but by doing what the Law commands. 14 The Gentiles do not have the Law; but whenever they do by instinct what the Law commands, they are their own law, even though they do not have the Law. 15 Their conduct shows that what the Law commands is written in their hearts. Their consciences also show that this is true, since their thoughts sometimes accuse them and sometimes defend them. 16 And so, according to the Good News I preach, this is how it will be on that Day when God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

Though this translation is pretty watered down (i had to borrow my sister's bible, mine's at college:p ) it states that when some people have not heard about Jesus, like some buddhist in Thailand, they are judged based upon their own actions and following what is right as apposed to believing in Jesus and accepting him as your lord and savior. Jesus died for all mankind, not just those who heard about him. If you were sent to heaven based on A hearing about Jesus and B believing it, there would be a LOT of room left in heaven.

10 But God will give glory, honor, and peace to all who do what is good, to the Jews first and also the Gentiles. 11 For God judges everyone by the same standard.
12 The Gentiles do not have the Law of Moses; they sin and are lost apart from the Law. The Jews have the Law; they sin and are judged by the Law.heres the important part13 For it is not by hearing the Law that people are put right with God, but by doing what the Law commands. 14 The Gentiles do not have the Law; but whenever they do by instinct what the Law commands, they are their own law, even though they do not have the Law. 15 Their conduct shows that what the Law commands is written in their hearts. Their consciences also show that this is true, since their thoughts sometimes accuse them and sometimes defend them. 16 And so, according to the Good News I preach, this is how it will be on that Day when God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

Though this translation is pretty watered down (i had to borrow my sister's bible, mine's at college:p ) it states that when some people have not heard about Jesus, like some buddhist in Thailand, they are judged based upon their own actions and following what is right as apposed to believing in Jesus and accepting him as your lord and savior. Jesus died for all mankind, not just those who heard about him. If you were sent to heaven based on A hearing about Jesus and B believing it, there would be a LOT of room left in heaven.

Important note here - It says the law of moses. Its not talking about Jesus. If you look it says that

Romans 2:12
The Gentiles do not have the Law of Moses; they sin and are lost apart from the Law. The Jews have the Law; they sin and are judged by the Law

In other words, its talking about the old coveneant practises.

what gives you the idea that Jesus did not die for everyone's sins?

open the bible and read the new testament for...I'm going to say ten minutes. You are sure to run into a reference to the fact that Jesus came here to save EVERYONE. I'm sorry for using an overquoted scripture but John 3:16 for God so loved the world that he gave his only son that ANYONE that believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life there's an example, or just read my above post...

*shudder*

if god is infinitely just why are billions barred from heaven?

If the justice system is just why are thousands in prison?

Your using numbers to make your case sound worse than it is. But consider that since we are dealing with the entire human race, the numbers size are reletive in terms of conception. In the same way 100,000 people is a large number in the town the size of 300,000 people but a tiny number in a country of 300 million, so you can see how this is a reletive issue

You really should be asking, if God is infintely just, why is anyone in heaven. The wages of sin our death. Meaning that if we got what we deserved, we would all be dead. But God showed us grace, and sent Jesus to die and enable us to be in heaven as a gift to us. Salvation is a gift. You don't earn a gift.

Important note here - It says the law of moses. Its not talking about Jesus. If you look it says that

Romans 2:12
The Gentiles do not have the Law of Moses; they sin and are lost apart from the Law. The Jews have the Law; they sin and are judged by the Law

In other words, its talking about the old coveneant practises.

This would be true, but look at the last line Romans 2:16 And so, according to the Good News I preach, this is how it will be on that Day when God, through Jesus Christ will judged the secret thoughts of all. Though the speaker is referencing the old laws, they are applying in a new way. The book of Romans was written from Paul to the Rome in an attempt to teach the Romans about Jesus. The romans did not understand what a Christian was, but they did understand what a Jew was, if you look through that book there are other references like this that back that up. So it was easier to state the facts in a way that the Romans would understand.

If the justice system is just why are thousands in prison?

Your using numbers to make your case sound worse than it is. But consider that since we are dealing with the entire human race, the numbers size are reletive in terms of conception. In the same way 100,000 people is a large number in the town the size of 300,000 people but a tiny number in a country of 300 million, so you can see how this is a reletive issue

You really should be asking, if God is infintely just, why is anyone in heaven. The wages of sin our death. Meaning that if we got what we deserved, we would all be dead. But God showed us grace, and sent Jesus to die and enable us to be in heaven as a gift to us. Salvation is a gift. You don't earn a gift.
so its OK with you that YOU get into heaven because you grew up in a christian country where you got the secret code to get in (accepting jesus christ as your personal lord and savior) while billions burn in hell because they never even knew that there was a choice to be made?

fine. thats justice alright

its not a small number. there are ... 6billion people in the world and ... 1.5 billion christians, most of those only nominally christian. 4.5 billion people have NO chance to get into heaven, that leaves them burning in hell. the vast majority of those 4.5 billion have no way to find out about christianity. they have no way of accepting jesus as their personal lord and savior. they are just doomed.

yeah, thats justice.

Salvation is a gift. You don't earn a gift.
this is patenty false.

some people get the "gift" and some dont but it doesnt fall randomly on this one or that. you have to QUALIFY to get the gift. how does that differ from earning it?

in fact you have to work to get the gift. you cant just drift onward in sin and error. you accept jesus then you have to change your behavior and at least try to live a sinless life (even though no one expects you to succeed in it)

so its OK with you that YOU get into heaven because you grew up in a christian country where you got the secret code to get in (accepting jesus christ as your personal lord and savior) while billions burn in hell because they never even knew that there was a choice to be made?

fine. thats justice alright

Have you considered that part of being a Christian is to go out and tell other people about Christianity. If we were all silent and kept it to ourselves then yes it would be unjust. But we dont. We go all around the world and tell people about it


its not a small number. there are ... 6billion people in the world and ... 1.5 billion christians, most of those only nominally christian. 4.5 billion people have NO chance to get into heaven, that leaves them burning in hell. the vast majority of those 4.5 billion have no way to find out about christianity. they have no way of accepting jesus as their personal lord and savior. they are just doomed.

yeah, thats justice.

Justice is never based on numbers. If there were only 20 people in the a villiage and 19 of them commited a crime against the other one then they should all be punished. Just because there is a large percentage of people doesnt mean its bad.

As for people who dont hear about God, look here

http://www.carm.org/email/skep_neverheard.htm

so its OK with you that YOU get into heaven because you grew up in a christian country where you got the secret code to get in (accepting jesus christ as your personal lord and savior) while billions burn in hell because they never even knew that there was a choice to be made?

fine. thats justice alright

its not a small number. there are ... 6billion people in the world and ... 1.5 billion christians, most of those only nominally christian. 4.5 billion people have NO chance to get into heaven, that leaves them burning in hell. the vast majority of those 4.5 billion have no way to find out about christianity. they have no way of accepting jesus as their personal lord and savior. they are just doomed.

yeah, thats justice.


um...dont disregard what i said simply because its easier. God did NOT forget the other people, they are judged based on their consciousness and their instinct of Good and evil. look at Matthew 19:16-19
16 Once a man came to Jesus "Teacher," he asked, "what good thing mus i do to recieve eternal life?" 17 "Why do you ask me concerning what is good?" answered Jesus. "There is only One who is good. Keep the commandments if you want to enter life."
18 "What commandments?" he asked.
Jesus answered, "Do not commit murder; do not commit adultery; do not steal; do not accuse anyone falsely; 19 respect your father and your mother; and love your neighbor as you love yourself."

Show me a society that does not respect those beliefs, because they are pretty universal if you ask me.

this is patenty false.

some people get the "gift" and some dont but it doesnt fall randomly on this one or that. you have to QUALIFY to get the gift. how does that differ from earning it?

in fact you have to work to get the gift. you cant just drift onward in sin and error. you accept jesus then you have to change your behavior and at least try to live a sinless life (even though no one expects you to succeed in it)

Its about accepting it. Not earning it. Salvation is a gift given. Becoming a Christian is accepting that gift. You dont work for it. You dont earn your salvation. The Bible says about that

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast

Christianity is the only religion truely based on recieveing forgiveness that we don't deserve.

8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift, not from works, so that no one can boast- Ephesians 2:8,9

"The beauty of Grace is that it makes life not fair"-RelientK

this is patenty false.
Since when did you ever earn a birthday gift. Because becoming a year older doesnt seem like something any rediculously difficult. Congratulations!! You lived to see another year!!

some people get the "gift" and some dont but it doesnt fall randomly on this one or that. you have to QUALIFY to get the gift. how does that differ from earning it?

There is no qualifying, you either accept it or you dont. Take it or leave it...its YOUR decision, not created by some standard made by Jesus.
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to be its judge, but to be its savior.

in fact you have to work to get the gift. you cant just drift onward in sin and error. you accept jesus then you have to change your behavior and at least try to live a sinless life (even though no one expects you to succeed in it)

No you dont have to work to get the gift, just believe.

open the bible and read the new testament for...I'm going to say ten minutes. You are sure to run into a reference to the fact that Jesus came here to save EVERYONE. I'm sorry for using an overquoted scripture but John 3:16 for God so loved the world that he gave his only son that ANYONE that believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life there's an example, or just read my above post...
yeah, I don't really need to read your post, maybe it would help you if you read mine. ;) Oh and I have read the new testament, and the old, many times, in fact I spend hours each week studying the Bible, but I will spend an extra ten minutes this week if it makes you feel better. :)

yeah, I don't really need to read your post, maybe it would help you if you read mine. ;) Oh and I have read the new testament, and the old, many times, in fact I spend hours each week studying the Bible, but I will spend an extra ten minutes this week if it makes you feel better. :)

Oh:headbang: ...my bad...I got a little intense there for a second...sorry:p

Oh:headbang: ...my bad...I got a little intense there for a second...sorry:p
that's okay, you are new, I forgive.

um...dont disregard what i said simply because its easier. God did NOT forget the other people, they are judged based on their consciousness and their instinct of Good and evil. look at Matthew 19:16-19
16 Once a man came to Jesus "Teacher," he asked, "what good thing mus i do to recieve eternal life?" 17 "Why do you ask me concerning what is good?" answered Jesus. "There is only One who is good. Keep the commandments if you want to enter life."
18 "What commandments?" he asked.
Jesus answered, "Do not commit murder; do not commit adultery; do not steal; do not accuse anyone falsely; 19 respect your father and your mother; and love your neighbor as you love yourself."

Show me a society that does not respect those beliefs, because they are pretty universal if you ask me.
which is a perfectly legitimate belief. but not one that everyone on this thread believes.

does that NOT imply that there is no need to believe in or accept jesus in order to be saved? not all that many christian sects subscribe to this.

Its about accepting it. Not earning it. Salvation is a gift given. Becoming a Christian is accepting that gift. You dont work for it. You dont earn your salvation. The Bible says about that
pffft

the bible also says that faith without works is dead.

do you believe that once you have accepted jesus you could go on a murder spree that ends in your death and still get right into heaven?

pffft

the bible also says that faith without works is dead.
and what exactly do you think that means?

I have to know where you are coming from to be able to explain this to you correctly.

Christianity is the only religion truely based on recieveing forgiveness that we don't deserve.


Bold statement.

I'd like to see it proved.

(Not the 'grace in Christianity thing, I've seen that.... I mean the fact that no OTHER religions do the same thing...)

Have you considered that part of being a Christian is to go out and tell other people about Christianity. If we were all silent and kept it to ourselves then yes it would be unjust. But we dont. We go all around the world and tell people about it
are you being deliberately facile? do you really not know that there are billions of people who will never hear one word about christianity and billions more who will only be told LIES about it?

missionaries can only do so much. they dont reach everyone. how is it JUST for those who will never hear??


Justice is never based on numbers. If there were only 20 people in the a villiage and 19 of them commited a crime against the other one then they should all be punished. Just because there is a large percentage of people doesnt mean its bad.
well where *I* come from it is considered unjust to punish people for things they have no way of knowing were wrong. especially when they did nothing WRONG at all but just didnt do the one thing that was right that they had no way of knowing existed or was mandated.


As for people who dont hear about God, look here

http://www.carm.org/email/skep_neverheard.htm

Because the Scripture does not specifically address this issue, we cannot make an absolute statement concerning it. However, since the Bible does state that salvation is only through Jesus and that a person must receive Christ, then logically we conclude that those who have not heard the gospel are lost. This is all the more reason to preach the gospel to everyone.

yeah thats exactly what im saying is UNJUST. sending people to hell without giving them any way to have avoided it.

and what exactly do you think that means?

I have to know where you are coming from to be able to explain this to you correctly.
it means that faith alone isnt enough to get you into heaven. once you accept that jesus is the messiah, it transforms your life and you realize that you must live according to what jesus taught us.

you know....whatsover you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me... kinda thing.

its not a "get out of jail free card". becoming a christian has implications beyond salvation.

this whole "gift" thing would work out better if y'all didnt infact have heaven or hell as the only options after death. its not a "i got a gift" but a "i got a gift and you got a punishment" thing.

if you believed as the jehova witnesses do that "the wages of sin are death" then it would be FINE. either you die and are dead and forgotten or you accept jesus and get the gift of eternal life.

if you believed as conicopium suggested that those who had no opportunity to hear the truth of christianity but lived a good life anyway get into heaven then no its not unjust.

if you believe as the catholics do that you either get into heaven or perhaps limbo (im not sure what the status of limbo is these days) if you are a good person who never heard of chritianity and that only the truly bad to go hell. then FINE.

but to believe that only those who have had the opportunity to find out about jesus, got that message delivered in a way that was accessible to them, and then actually accepted jesus as their personal lord and savior go to heaven leaving billions of people to burn in eternal torment through no fault of their own, is kinda creepy.

it means that faith alone isnt enough to get you into heaven. once you accept that jesus is the messiah, it transforms your life and you realize that you must live according to what jesus taught us.
that's interesting. I believe that faith alone is enough to get you into heaven. Well, kinda. It does not make sense to me that Jesus' sacrifice would not be sufficient to rid me of my sin and grant me eternal life. In fact other than that specific scripture, I haven't found anything that eludes to the fact that you have to work your way into heaven. In context, I take that statement as less of "if you aren't good your faith is meaningless" and more of "you say you believe, now what are you going to do about it"

its not a "get out of jail free card". becoming a christian has implications beyond salvation.
becoming a Christian does have implications beyond salvation, but salvation itself is a gift, and not something you work for.

The way I explain it to children is ABC
A accept that you are a sinner, and in need of redemption


B believe that Jesus Christ, died for you, and that by his sacrifice is your salvation


C commit your life to His service

It really does take all three, one without the others doesn't make much sense, it is incomplete.

if you believe that you are in need of a savior and commit your life to Him but don't believe that he died for your sins, what are you doing? If you believe that he died for your sins and commit your life, but don't believe you ever sinned then why do you need a savior, if you believe that you need a savior and believe that he died for your sins but are unwilling to commit then what decision have you actually made?

this whole "gift" thing would work out better if y'all didnt infact have heaven or hell as the only options after death. its not a "i got a gift" but a "i got a gift and you got a punishment" thing.

if you believed as the jehova witnesses do that "the wages of sin are death" then it would be FINE. either you die and are dead and forgotten or you accept jesus and get the gift of eternal life.

if you believed as conicopium suggested that those who had no opportunity to hear the truth of christianity but lived a good life anyway get into heaven then no its not unjust.

if you believe as the catholics do that you either get into heaven or perhaps limbo (im not sure what the status of limbo is these days) if you are a good person who never heard of chritianity and that only the truly bad to go hell. then FINE.

but to believe that only those who have had the opportunity to find out about jesus, got that message delivered in a way that was accessible to them, and then actually accepted jesus as their personal lord and savior go to heaven leaving billions of people to burn in eternal torment through no fault of their own, is kinda creepy.

ah, but what does just mean? If God set down rules and said "this is the way things are" and then changed them at will, would that be just?

Lets say that there is a rule in my house, and if the 4 year old breaks it she gets time out, but when the 2 year old breaks it she gets a cookie, is that fair? My 4 year old would say no, and my 2 year old would be confused, especially if the next time she broke the rule instead of a cookie she got a spanking.

that's interesting. I believe that faith alone is enough to get you into heaven. Well, kinda. It does not make sense to me that Jesus' sacrifice would not be sufficient to rid me of my sin and grant me eternal life. In fact other than that specific scripture, I haven't found anything that eludes to the fact that you have to work your way into heaven. In context, I take that statement as less of "if you aren't good your faith is meaningless" and more of "you say you believe, now what are you going to do about it"


becoming a Christian does have implications beyond salvation, but salvation itself is a gift, and not something you work for.

The way I explain it to children is ABC
A accept that you are a sinner, and in need of redemption


B believe that Jesus Christ, died for you, and that by his sacrifice is your salvation


C commit your life to His service

It really does take all three, one without the others doesn't make much sense, it is incomplete.

if you believe that you are in need of a savior and commit your life to Him but don't believe that he died for your sins, what are you doing? If you believe that he died for your sins and commit your life, but don't believe you ever sinned then why do you need a savior, if you believe that you need a savior and believe that he died for your sins but are unwilling to commit then what decision have you actually made?

its not that i think you work your way into heaven. im fine with the notion that its the grace of god that gets you in. but you cant do whatever you like and still get into heaven.

you cant say "i accept jesus as my lord and savior" and then continue to lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery ,dishonor your parents, etc, etc. without a second thought.

There are actually only two religions in the world , a religion of works and a religion of grace.

True Christianity (not talking about a particular church here) from the Bible teaches us that we are not saved by good works - "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, being justified (that is declared not guilty) by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

God demands perfection, (not just the college try) because He is perfect.
God knows we can't be perfect, "He remembers that we are but dust."
So He sent His perfect Son, Jesus Christ into the world to take on the punishment of everyone's sins, all of your sins have been paid for by Jesus blood.

If you belive that your sins were washed away in Jesus blood you have eternal life in heaven. "For where there is forgiveness of sins there is eternal life."

Believing Christians now try to obey the commandments as a proof of their faith in Christ. Such as I say I love my kids, but I don't give them anything to eat, shows I don't really love them. Saying I love God, but then not obeying His word proves otherwise. Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep my commandments." Keeping them will not earn someone heaven - Jesus has already earned it for us. Keeping the commandments marks you as a Christian.

Christians are not "better" than anyone else, they still sin, but they are "better off" because they know that God sees them as righteous (without sin) because of Jesus' sacrifice.
(Check out the Book of Romans - New Testament for more info.)

ah, but what does just mean? If God set down rules and said "this is the way things are" and then changed them at will, would that be just?

Lets say that there is a rule in my house, and if the 4 year old breaks it she gets time out, but when the 2 year old breaks it she gets a cookie, is that fair? My 4 year old would say no, and my 2 year old would be confused, especially if the next time she broke the rule instead of a cookie she got a spanking.
which is fine if everyone knows the rule eh?

what if the rule was "no writing on the walls" but you never told them. when they turned 16 they wanted to go to the prom and you said "oh im sorry, you wrote on the wall when you were 2, you dont get to go to the prom"

that would be unjust.

its not that i think you work your way into heaven. im fine with the notion that its the grace of god that gets you in. but you cant do whatever you like and still get into heaven.

you cant say "i accept jesus as my lord and savior" and then continue to lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery ,dishonor your parents, etc, etc. without a second thought.
when people do that (accept then don't change at all) I wonder how sincere they were in their acceptance. It appears to me that they are just saying they believe and really are trying to get a free ride and nothing more. It's a problem I have though, I am not supposed to judge others, so I try not to think about how sincere they really are or not, being that I could never really know anyway.

Bold statement.

I'd like to see it proved.

(Not the 'grace in Christianity thing, I've seen that.... I mean the fact that no OTHER religions do the same thing...)

Well Islam bases its whole principal on that you earn salvation by your good deads outweighing your bad ones, thus getting what you deserve

Budissim bases its ideas on actions that will lead you to a higher being, to reach the next stage of enlightnenment, thus getting what you deserve

Hindu's believe in Karma, getting what you deserve

I dont know very much about Zorotrasianism, but as far as I am aware its an ofshoot of Buddaism or Hinduism. I'm not sure which

which is a perfectly legitimate belief. but not one that everyone on this thread believes.

does that NOT imply that there is no need to believe in or accept jesus in order to be saved? not all that many christian sects subscribe to this.

No. I think it implies that if you havent heard of Jesus or what he has done, you will be judged diffrently from someone who has been

There are actually only two religions in the world , a religion of works and a religion of grace.

True Christianity (not talking about a particular church here) from the Bible teaches us that we are not saved by good works - "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, being justified (that is declared not guilty) by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

God demands perfection, (not just the college try) because He is perfect.
God knows we can't be perfect, "He remembers that we are but dust."
So He sent His perfect Son, Jesus Christ into the world to take on the punishment of everyone's sins, all of your sins have been paid for by Jesus blood.

If you belive that your sins were washed away in Jesus blood you have eternal life in heaven. "For where there is forgiveness of sins there is eternal life."

Believing Christians now try to obey the commandments as a proof of their faith in Christ. Such as I say I love my kids, but I don't give them anything to eat, shows I don't really love them. Saying I love God, but then not obeying His word proves otherwise. Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep my commandments." Keeping them will not earn someone heaven - Jesus has already earned it for us. Keeping the commandments marks you as a Christian.

Christians are not "better" than anyone else, they still sin, but they are "better off" because they know that God sees them as righteous (without sin) because of Jesus' sacrifice.
(Check out the Book of Romans - New Testament for more info.)
true christians follow the teachings of jesus. they dont sign onto a religious belief because it gives them the best afterlife.

Well Islam bases its whole principal on that you earn salvation by your good deads outweighing your bad ones, thus getting what you deserve

Budissim bases its ideas on actions that will lead you to a higher being, to reach the next stage of enlightnenment, thus getting what you deserve

Hindu's believe in Karma, getting what you deserve

I dont know very much about Zorotrasianism, but as far as I am aware its an ofshoot of Buddaism or Hinduism. I'm not sure which

Zoroastrianism is not an offshoot of anything that's still around, that I'm aware.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/zoroastr.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

Well Islam bases its whole principal on that you earn salvation by your good deads outweighing your bad ones, thus getting what you deserve

Budissim bases its ideas on actions that will lead you to a higher being, to reach the next stage of enlightnenment, thus getting what you deserve

Hindu's believe in Karma, getting what you deserve

I dont know very much about Zorotrasianism, but as far as I am aware its an ofshoot of Buddaism or Hinduism. I'm not sure which

Okay. That's a grand total of four. And, it looks like you are citing rumours, since I don't see any 'evidence' being presented.



I'm still waiting for ALL the other religions to be dealt with.

Okay. That's a grand total of four. And, it looks like you are citing rumours, since I don't see any 'evidence' being presented.

I'm still waiting for ALL the other religions to be dealt with.

Well could you provide a list of what you would consider all. I'm sure you can apreciate that its impossible to do all the tinyist little tribal faiths that we have no knowledge of

Well could you provide a list of what you would consider all. I'm sure you can apreciate that its impossible to do all the tinyist little tribal faiths that we have no knowledge of

Not my problem, friend... here let me show you:


Christianity is the only religion truely based on recieveing forgiveness that we don't deserve.

I say this is not true.

Thus, the burden of proof is on Neg Nwes to prove that it is true, and that NO OTHER RELIGION teaches undeserved grace.

Well could you provide a list of what you would consider all. I'm sure you can apreciate that its impossible to do all the tinyist little tribal faiths that we have no knowledge of
I think his point is that when you speak in absolutes you are always wrong, you can't say that Christianity is the Only anything without knowledge of everything else.

I think his point is that when you speak in absolutes you are always wrong, you can't say that Christianity is the Only anything without knowledge of everything else.

Exactly.... I mean, even if it had said it in scripture.... and even if scripture were true.... the scripture is 2000 years old, and there are thousands of new religions that have been 'discovered' since then...

To speak in absolutes of that kind, about the religious landscape of this time.... is folly at best.

My thanks, Smunkee, for explaining my contention. :)

Exactly.... I mean, even if it had said it in scripture.... and even if scripture were true.... the scripture is 2000 years old, and there are thousands of new religions that have been 'discovered' since then...

To speak in absolutes of that kind, about the religious landscape of this time.... is folly at best.

My thanks, Smunkee, for explaining my contention. :)
yeah. People who speak in absolutes are one of my pet peeves. I keep telling my kids "when you speak in absolutes you are always wrong" but I think I am going to have to quit telling them that, because then my 4 year old and I get into a discussion about how the statement "when you speak in absolutes you are always wrong" is a paradox and then we talk about that for too long and I think she misses my point. Luckily I have been trying to figure out a way to explain it to her that isn't so paradoxical, so you caught me the day after I figured it out. :p

yeah. People who speak in absolutes are one of my pet peeves. I keep telling my kids "when you speak in absolutes you are always wrong" but I think I am going to have to quit telling them that, because then my 4 year old and I get into a discussion about how the statement "when you speak in absolutes you are always wrong" is a paradox and then we talk about that for too long and I think she misses my point. Luckily I have been trying to figure out a way to explain it to her that isn't so paradoxical, so you caught me the day after I figured it out. :p

Yeah... how do you say "Never speak in absolutes"... without speaking in absolutes... ? :)

this whole "gift" thing would work out better if y'all didnt infact have heaven or hell as the only options after death. its not a "i got a gift" but a "i got a gift and you got a punishment" thing.
Aye; it only makes sense as "the gift (of Heaven) already given", and all that is left is to accept the gift; in other words, it is something we all already have, and all that's needed it to recognize and acknowledge it. The whole "Hell afterlife" addition makes it make no sense.

you cant say "i accept jesus as my lord and savior" and then continue to lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery ,dishonor your parents, etc, etc. without a second thought.
I thought the theory was that once you accept Jesus, i.e. accept his teachings, you wouldn't be inspired to commit any of those acts, at all, because your actions are shaped by your philosophy.

I dont know very much about Zorotrasianism, but as far as I am aware its an ofshoot of Buddaism or Hinduism. I'm not sure which
Zoroastrianism was the predominent religion in the Middle East at the time of Christ. It predates Judaism by about 2,000 years, by some accounts.

I thought the theory was that once you accept Jesus, i.e. accept his teachings, you wouldn't be inspired to commit any of those acts, at all, because your actions are shaped by your philosophy.

theres a preacher with an ad on tv that says "(true) christianity isnt a religion, its a relationship with god"

i like that. it moves it from "get out of hell free card" to a more sophisticated theological approach.

yeah. People who speak in absolutes are one of my pet peeves. I keep telling my kids "when you speak in absolutes you are always wrong" but I think I am going to have to quit telling them that, because then my 4 year old and I get into a discussion about how the statement "when you speak in absolutes you are always wrong" is a paradox and then we talk about that for too long and I think she misses my point. Luckily I have been trying to figure out a way to explain it to her that isn't so paradoxical, so you caught me the day after I figured it out. :p
It's more 'when you speak in generalizations' than in absolutes.

theres a preacher with an ad on tv that says "(true) christianity isnt a religion, its a relationship with god"

i like that. it moves it from "get out of hell free card" to a more sophisticated theological approach.
Aye; good on him. That's my own contention, too, that religion is a relationship with god.

theres a preacher with an ad on tv that says "(true) christianity isnt a religion, its a relationship with god"

i like that. it moves it from "get out of hell free card" to a more sophisticated theological approach.

It actually comes closer to how I read the words of (the scriptural) Jesus.

As far as I can see, his message basically came down to two things:

1) A personal relationship with God, and

2) NOT following the interpretations of other men.

And now to take this thread out of Christian hands, cause Christ didn't get up and didn't fly (to paraphrase an old saying).

Judaism teaches that while individuals tend not to get what they deserve, the entire society does.

I would also like to remind the Christians that "we are all sinners" doctrine completely disgregards the existence of positive "thou shalt X" mitzvot. There aren't just things we're supposed not to do, but things we are supposed to do as well. In fact, there's a lot more positive mitzvot than negative, and they easily balance each other out. As long as you attend High Holiday (especially Yom Kippur) services every year to get your Jewish Guilt Trip ;).

this whole "gift" thing would work out better if y'all didnt infact have heaven or hell as the only options after death. its not a "i got a gift" but a "i got a gift and you got a punishment" thing.

What if hell is, as much of scripture suggests, simply a total absence of God? It is often described as a tortuous place, because we imagine that any existence without God would be tortuous and awful. Of course, there are those who seem to get along just fine without any belief in God or any relationship with God. Would continuing the path they had chosen really be "punishment"?

What if hell is, as much of scripture suggests, simply a total absence of God? It is often described as a tortuous place, because we imagine that any existence without God would be tortuous and awful. Of course, there are those who seem to get along just fine without any belief in God or any relationship with God. Would continuing the path they had chosen really be "punishment"?

I like your vision... and it makes a certain sense, but how do you reconcile it with 'worms that do not die', etc?

Why does everyone assume a religion which sends you to heaven/hell/whatever based soley on what you do is a good religion?

Simple question, probably just get flames, but I really don't understand it. Why is a religion that isn't based soley on getting what you deserve any good?

REVISED QUESTION:

Why can't religion be about getting what you DON'T deserve?

From an athiest's point of view, religions such as Christianity etc. were created to instil a fear in people if they behaved immorally, and as a 'security blanket' to those who were poor or victimised, and thought they would be rewarded in heaven and the rich and corrupt punished for not sharing their wealth or being kind to them. There would be no need for religion that encourages people to do as they like, and exploit others. Though some would say that atheism does this as it encourages people to make their own lives and not have to worry how God will punish them.

I like your vision... and it makes a certain sense, but how do you reconcile it with 'worms that do not die', etc?

I think much of the description - the lake of fire, etc. are an attempt by the writers to describe what they think being without God would be like. As God is present to all now, even those who reject God or do not know it, none of us can truly imagine what it would be like to have a total absence of God. However, for those of us who do love and worship God, existence without would be a horrible experience, and I think it was described in the terms of the worst things the writers could think of.

From an athiest's point of view, religions such as Christianity etc. were created to instil a fear in people if they behaved immorally, and as a 'security blanket' to those who were poor or victimised, and thought they would be rewarded in heaven and the rich and corrupt punished for not sharing their wealth or being kind to them. There would be no need for religion that encourages people to do as they like, and exploit others. Though some would say that atheism does this as it encourages people to make their own lives and not have to worry how God will punish them.

IIRC, there are certain forms of Satanism that encourage this (not all - there are several sets of beliefs that all use the name Satanism). They still believe in the afterlife, but believe that a "good" person does for themselves.

What if hell is, as much of scripture suggests, simply a total absence of God? It is often described as a tortuous place, because we imagine that any existence without God would be tortuous and awful. Of course, there are those who seem to get along just fine without any belief in God or any relationship with God. Would continuing the path they had chosen really be "punishment"?
that is the kinder gentler version of hell alright. while it makes sense, is it "biblical"? not all things that make sense to us can be justified by the bible.

maybe it IS a torment to live eternity outside of god's grace. its certainly not shown as a neutral existance. mental torture is still torture and still a punishment for those who did nothing to merit punishment and it is not "just". even if some could happily exist that way, most would not (if we are to believe that hell is a place of torment).

but its certainly a more sophisticated belief that that god creates billions upon billions of people who are doomed to eternal torment through utterly no fault of their own.