NationStates Jolt Archive

What I'm curious to know is what would you prefer: to be happy, or to know the truth?

For example, would you rather live a lie but be very happy, or know the full truth of what's going on, and be much less joyous?

(added) PS: No trickyness, no "the truth catches up". The truth doesn't catch up. You are living a lie that makes you happy and you believe it to be the truth. Would you rather continue the happiness or know the truth? Remember, this lie is in every way the truth to you, for you don't know that it could be a lie.

My personal opinion:
What is so important about the truth? Happiness makes us feel better, what does the truth do? It may give us a certain pleasantness somewhere inside, but does the satisfaction of knowing the truth outweigh the feelings of happiness?

Despite that, I'm not sure which one I like better, I just don't know...

definantly truth

Truth for sure.

I'd rather know the truth. Happiness based on lies is not "true" happiness. It's merely a well-fortified illusion. Sooner or later the truth usually does catch up.

That doesn't stop me from lying though. But that wasn't the question, now was it?

I'd choose ignorance if I have no idea that there is a truth.

If there is something you could know, then usually people need to know it.

I'd rather know the truth. Happiness based on lies is not "true" happiness.

How is it not true happiness? You're feeling happy aren't you? This is the lie, it makes you happy, and you believe it is the truth, so there is no falseness in your emotions of happiness.

It's merely a well-fortified illusion. Sooner or later the truth usually does catch up.

Those are not the terms of the poll. The poll assumes that the truth does not catch up (I'll add that). It's just a simple matter of truth vs. happiness.

It also depends on what it is.

If I had been fucking my mom (IE, Oedipus) then yeah...

Eww, seriously, how the fuck does that even happen? isn't there an age difference?

damn greeks.

I choose truth... for the reason stated in the Matrix. Actual true happiness wouldn't sit right with me, that's not the way my life - or life in general - works. The truth may sting, but it resonates in a person down to their core. You can be happy with the truth, too, if you're strong enough.

You can be happy with the truth, too, if you're strong enough.

The poll does state or at least imply that:

Happiness = living a lie that makes you happy that you are 100% certain is the truth
Truth = knowing the truth and living with considerably decreased happiness

No exceptions in either one; no eventually knowing the truth, no eventually being happy with the truth.

If I'm completely unaware my life is based on a lie, is my life fake? No. While we're making matrix references, remember the traitor in the first Matrix movie? The one who wanted to go back and eat delicious steak? He would have been a lot happier never knowing the truth. Even if he felt unhappy in his pseudo-life he was clearly happier there than eating shit and living in fear of tentacled robots.

How is it not true happiness? You're feeling happy aren't you? This is the lie, it makes you happy, and you believe it is the truth, so there is no falseness in your emotions of happiness.

It's not "true happiness" because your emotions are being mainpulated by falsehoods. There might be a very real feeling of happiness, but you only feel that way because your perceptions have been misguided. Therefore not true happiness as opposed to false happiness.

Those are not the terms of the poll. The poll assumes that the truth does not catch up (I'll add that). It's just a simple matter of truth vs. happiness.

Sure, change it after my respnse! :p

It's not "true happiness" because your emotions are being mainpulated by falsehoods. There might be a very real feeling of happiness, but you only feel that way because your perceptions have been misguided. Therefore not true happiness as opposed to false happiness.

With what you have just said, the feelings of true happiness and false happiness are exactly the same. They are very real feelings of happiness. Based on falsehoods, but it is still the same kind of happiness. So I ask you, if you'll be happy (since real happiness and false happiness feel the exact same), would you rather live a lie, or would you give up that happiness so you could know the truth?

Sure, change it after my respnse! :p

Not my fault you can't figure out hidden meanings in my posts :P

I voted truth but that would be a bit too simple. I don’t want to add an undesired element of complexity to your poll but it does seem to a tad on the simple side. Is there a price on others for my ignorant bliss? Are there others to whom the choice of happiness was not made? What alterations need to be made to either me or my reality for perfect happiness? Why does the truth make me unhappy? What kind of truth are we talking about; the an important serious of issues or Nirvana? Has this truth transcended reality, is my perception of the universe now complete? Is this truth universal and up to date, am I now omniscient? How deep does this truth go; can I know the motivations of all people? Do I get to ‘meet God’ as it were?

Can you add some element of imagery to this poll?

ADD: A nice chop job on the frontal lobe might make you a vegetable but you’ll be a drooling orgasming painless vegetable of bliss.

With what you have just said, the feelings of true happiness and false happiness are exactly the same. They are very real feelings of happiness. Based on falsehoods, but it is still the same kind of happiness. So I ask you, if you'll be happy (since real happiness and false happiness feel the exact same), would you rather live a lie, or would you give up that happiness so you could know the truth?

Ok, fine. I'll play along. Now, you're asking as if it were a choice between blissfull ignorance or miserable knowledge? I'd still much rather feel hurt or pissed off about the truth than be an ignorant fool.

Not my fault you can't figure out hidden meanings in my posts :P

Sorry, my psychic abilities are limited.

the two arent mutually exclusive, but if you make me asnwer i will say truth becuase it mkaes me happy

I chose I don't know, but...

If I had the choice, in real life, I would choose Truth, because if I chose Happiness then I would ALWAYS be haunted by the suspicion that I had lost the truth and was living a lie (even if I firmly believed that lie.)

I would definitely prefer happiness, but it wouldn't be possible without at least an attempt at the truth - and hence, paradoxically, choosing happiness over truth would deny me happiness.

Ignoance may be bliss, but it is also deadly. I chose truth always. It may make me unhappy, I may even live a happier life if I never knew it, but I look at it this way: Should I chose to live the lie and be happy, I have lost my ability to chose other than that lie. With knowing the truth, I can chose to leave the lie and find happiness elsewhere, or deny the truth and embrace the lie.

It also depends on what it is.

If I had been fucking my mom (IE, Oedipus) then yeah...

Eww, seriously, how the fuck does that even happen? isn't there an age difference?

damn greeks.

Yes there was an age difference. But that didn't neccesarily deter all individuals. Plus it could have been a relatively minor age difference, like 15-20 years.

But I suspect the marriage was more to cement his hold on royal power and claim to the throne of Thebes, than because he thought his mom was to hit-able to pass up.

And don't diss the ancient Greeks. They were awesome.

As to the question - I don't know. Part of me wants the truth, of course, but then, happiness is also valuable. It would depend a lot on the situation, and it's not a call I can make for certain here.

Those who say "truth" are deceiving themselves.

Those who say "truth" are deceiving themselves.

Oh the irony, it burns.

*snip*

It affects no-one but you.

Think about it as this example.

(yes, I know, this example may be related to a movie, don't point that out)
Your loved one has died. SOMEHOW you can continue living as if your wife still lives and erase your memory such that you never knew she died. Whether it be a hibernation chamber and you dream of all of this, or some other way. Your wife is actually dead. However, your perception of your life is that she's not dead, and you continue living as if she's alive.
Would you like to live this life, or face reality? (this is with the assumption that you'll never marry again, and that without your wife you are much less happy; just to make sure that the truth vs. happiness issue is not dirtied by "what ifs")

Another example:

Your life is all a sham. You are actually a brain inside a canister, and a species of aliens is making you live your life by being in total control of your perceptions. Would you want to know that, or would you rather continue living blissfully ignorant? Of course, if you do find out, there's nothing else to do other than continue the "life" program.

Another example (warning: I do not mean anything by this, no hidden agenda or anything; he could exist or he could not, but in THIS example he does NOT):

You believe in God and faith in God makes you happy, not to mention the happiness of knowing that when you or your loved one dies, you'll meet again in heaven. However, there is no God. Would you rather know there is no God, or continue living happy, even if your loved one dies, for you know that you'll be with her again in heaven?

ADDED (it might be too late, for you may have already read my post, but oh well): It is NOT like Bush telling us that we have to invade country X, and to us invading country X makes us happier, for we would be affecting country X.
It is also NOT like Bush telling us that there is no threat of terrorism when there actually is, for our safety would be compromised.

(both Bush things are hypothetical, don't look too much into it)

Ok, fine. I'll play along. Now, you're asking as if it were a choice between blissfull ignorance or miserable knowledge? I'd still much rather feel hurt or pissed off about the truth than be an ignorant fool.

If you say so, but you say "fool" as if it affects your effectiveness (like skills and such). Nothing but your happiness is affected.

Sorry, my psychic abilities are limited.

Lol :D

the two arent mutually exclusive, but if you make me asnwer i will say truth becuase it mkaes me happy

In this example they are totally mutually exclusive.

Truth.

I chose I don't know, but...

If I had the choice, in real life, I would choose Truth, because if I chose Happiness then I would ALWAYS be haunted by the suspicion that I had lost the truth and was living a lie (even if I firmly believed that lie.)

I would definitely prefer happiness, but it wouldn't be possible without at least an attempt at the truth - and hence, paradoxically, choosing happiness over truth would deny me happiness.

Your decision would be erased from your memory if you'd choose happiness.

Thus, if you chose happiness, you would not remember choosing it (because if you'd remember, you wouldn't be as happy, knowing that you might be living a lie).

Also, in this hypothetical scenario, choosing truth would make you much less happy than choosing happiness, 100% certain.

Ignoance may be bliss, but it is also deadly. I chose truth always. It may make me unhappy, I may even live a happier life if I never knew it, but I look at it this way: Should I chose to live the lie and be happy, I have lost my ability to chose other than that lie. With knowing the truth, I can chose to leave the lie and find happiness elsewhere, or deny the truth and embrace the lie.

Man, the way you guys keep finding way around it and stray from the pure truth vs. happiness is astounding (not insulting you, in fact it's a compliment).

It is a truth that makes you utterly unhappy and you cannot deny it.

It is a truth that makes you utterly unhappy and you cannot deny it.
Ok, I would still chose truth for the same reasons. Taking one of your examples, one that causes me to wake up in a cold sweat right now.

Let's say that my wife (currently my fiancee) does indeed die, and somehow I am offered the chance to forget about her death and am able to live as if she were alive, I would still chose to remember.

If I do NOT, if I chose to have that fact errased and live the rest of my life in a holo-chamber or whatever, I am not really living. I would never really be alive again. I may be happy, but it is a false happiness, the kind drugs give you.

I take my vows seriously, so if my wife ever DID die, I would never date or marry again, so yes, I would chose a life empty of romantic companionship. But I would be alive and living, hurt, but living. That is far prefferable to empty promises. And besides, my fiancee expects me to keep living no matter what happens and would not like me chosing to live a lie, even if it makes me happy.

I don't think this question makes sense - its completely theoretical. In my book, it has no realtion to a real situation, and is thus meaningless.

You've said that in the "happiness" scenario, you would have no idea that some untruth was occuring, and you would never know. Thus, your experience would be the same as if there was no untruth occuring at all. Both options are the same, except one is happy, and the other isn't. I choose the happy.

I don't think this question makes sense - its completely theoretical. In my book, it has no realtion to a real situation, and is thus meaningless.

You've said that in the "happiness" scenario, you would have no idea that some untruth was occuring, and you would never know. Thus, your experience would be the same as if there was no untruth occuring at all. Both options are the same, except one is happy, and the other isn't. I choose the happy.

Exactly my point. Except some people see some need to know the truth. To some people, the options are not the same. You, my friend, are thinking on my wavelength.

If you say so, but you say "fool" as if it affects your effectiveness (like skills and such). Nothing but your happiness is affected.


I wouldn't know what to do if I were happy. I'd know something was wrong, just because I'd be happy. Then I'd be sitting there wondering what was wrong, only I'd never know. Somebody would have to come and put me in a straightjacket.

I wouldn't know what to do if I were happy. I'd know something was wrong, just because I'd be happy. Then I'd be sitting there wondering what was wrong, only I'd never know. Somebody would have to come and put me in a straightjacket.

So whenever you're happy, you think something's wrong?

So whenever you're happy, you think something's wrong?

Exactly.

Exactly my point. Except some people see some need to know the truth. To some people, the options are not the same. You, my friend, are thinking on my wavelength.*high fives*
Generally, theoretcal questions aggravate me, but this one I had no trouble with evaluating. To all those who would choose truth, you are merely chosing saddness over happiness. There is no difference in the authenticity of each experience - one might as well be the other.

Riddle me this: does the truth make you happy?

*high fives*
Generally, theoretcal questions aggravate me, but this one I had no trouble with evaluating. To all those who would choose truth, you are merely chosing saddness over happiness. There is no difference in the authenticity of each experience - one might as well be the other.

Only if you consider "truth" to be something subjective.

Riddle me this: does truth make you happy?Not really - it makes me assured, and purposeful, and gives meaning - and those are good, productive sentiments. However, this is assuming that I accept whatever it is as truth (which it may or may not be). As long as I accept it as such though, it will have the desirable effects, which for some, might include happiness.

But again, none of us have a hold on ultimate truth anyway - so we're all living out option 1 in varying degrees.

*high fives*
Generally, theoretcal questions aggravate me, but this one I had no trouble with evaluating. To all those who would choose truth, you are merely chosing saddness over happiness. There is no difference in the authenticity of each experience - one might as well be the other.
I have to disagree; there is a vast difference between 'the authenticity' of sad and truth.

For one thing, the truth may be a very un-sad thing.

Not really - it makes me assured, and purposeful, and gives meaning - and those are good, productive sentiments. However, this is assuming that I accept whatever it is as truth (which it may or may not be). As long as I accept it as such though, it will have the desirable effects, which for some, might include happiness.

But again, none of us have a hold on ultimate truth anyway - so we're all living out option 1 in varying degrees.
What is 'ultimate' truth? How does it differ from truth?

I have to disagree; there is a vast difference between 'the authenticity' of sad and truth.

For one thing, the truth may be a very un-sad thing.Right so there are 4 options:

truth - sadness and happiness
untruth - sadness and happiness

My only claim is that as long as you don't know which is which, as I maintain that no-one really does, both sets are identical. Our senses are fallible, our experiences are variable. I don't see an objective truth in this world, at least as far a human relationships are concerned, which has been the main focus of this thread. If we're talking laws of physics, maybe that's different, but I have to think about that some more.

What is 'ultimate' truth? How does it differ from truth?same thing.

same thing.
So nothing is true?

Is that true?

So nothing is true?

Is that true?

Which way do you want to go? Up or down?

So nothing is true?

Is that true?I think some things are true.

If I am convinced of the truth of something, I'll treat is as such, and thus it won't matter to my life whether it is actually real or not, unless I find out otherwise, and change my behaviour. If I never find out, well, it might as well be true - I don't care one way or another. I'm looking at this from the perspective of experiencing it; not from the outside. I doesn't make sense to me to look at this from the outside.

Right so there are 4 options:

truth - sadness and happiness
untruth - sadness and happiness

My only claim is that as long as you don't know which is which, as I maintain that no-one really does, both sets are identical. Our senses are fallible, our experiences are variable. I don't see an objective truth in this world, at least as far a human relationships are concerned, which has been the main focus of this thread. If we're talking laws of physics, maybe that's different, but I have to think about that some more.
Even if you do not know know which is which, if you do not know what is true and what is not, even then there is a vast difference between what is true and what is sad. For one thing, one is a concept and the other an emotion.

Our senses are fallible, our experiences variable --and neither need have any effect on what is true. Is the grass not still green? (well, there's Kentucky bluegrass, but you know what I mean.)

The veracity of truth is real regardless of the subject --human relationships, or otherwise. It is an absolute --either things are true or they are not.

What I'm curious to know is what would you prefer: to be happy, or to know the truth?

For example, would you rather live a lie but be very happy, or know the full truth of what's going on, and be much less joyous?

(added) PS: No trickyness, no "the truth catches up". The truth doesn't catch up. You are living a lie that makes you happy and you believe it to be the truth. Would you rather continue the happiness or know the truth? Remember, this lie is in every way the truth to you, for you don't know that it could be a lie.

My personal opinion:
What is so important about the truth? Happiness makes us feel better, what does the truth do? It may give us a certain pleasantness somewhere inside, but does the satisfaction of knowing the truth outweigh the feelings of happiness?

Despite that, I'm not sure which one I like better, I just don't know...
I happen to be one of those peculiar individuals who really, truly ENJOYS the pursuit of truth, and for every new fact i can inculcate and further understand my place in *the* "universe", the happier i am about things. Seriously.
I can handle all the other unpleasantries of life, i've had to deal with quite a few of 'em anyway. I may not like them but there's always some way to get through things ... and besides, no matter where you go, there you are.
Not much gettin' round that... i know someone is going to bring up projection and the like and maybe even possession but i have personal experience with both and can STILL say i fully appreciate the TRUTH pursuit (even though those instances sure made it more difficult)

Which way do you want to go? Up or down?
No matter where you go, there you are.
And as of this posting, you're on NS, arguing veracity vs. soul placation.
Not up OR down.

I think some things are true.

If I am convinced of the truth of something, I'll treat is as such, and thus it won't matter to my life whether it is actually real or not, unless I find out otherwise, and change my behaviour. If I never find out, well, it might as well be true - I don't care one way or another. I'm looking at this from the perspective of experiencing it; not from the outside. I doesn't make sense to me to look at this from the outside.
Is that true, that you think some things are true? If it is, then there is truth in this world, and it exists apart from us (as a concept, i.e. it still requires an agent).

Your treating something as truth because you are convinced of its truth is 'attitude'; this can be a very good thing. There are things, though, that we accept as truth without regard to a need for "convincing", like your first statement above. It is a reflection of "me" (you), a reflection of "self". Self cannot be doubted.

No matter where you go, there you are.
oh!

quoting Buckaroo Banzai.. low blow. ;)

oh!

quoting Buckaroo Banzai.. low blow. ;)
I didn't say I liked the WHOLE movie, it's just a happy coincidence that his interests and mine happen to intersect at so many junctures.
Truly, i'd heard it before i'd seen it.

EDIT: BTW, it appears upon my perusal so far that this thread can be chalked up to YET ANOTHER you own. Kudos. *bows*

Even if you do not know know which is which, if you do not know what is true and what is not, even then there is a vast difference between what is true and what is sad. For one thing, one is a concept and the other an emotion.

Our senses are fallible, our experiences variable --and neither need have any effect on what is true. Is the grass not still green? (well, there's Kentucky bluegrass, but you know what I mean.)

The veracity of truth is real regardless of the subject --human relationships, or otherwise. It is an absolute --either things are true or they are not.When did I say that truth and saddness are the same? I explicitly gave both options for truth: happiness and saddness. In the scenario the OP described, the thruthful option was one of lesser happiness than the untruthful option.

Our senses and experiences most certainly do have an effect on what is true. Grass is only green to us because the cones in our retina are formed a certain way. To bees, grass has a temerature. To other animals, grass has no tint. I certainly would dispute that truth is absolute - just look at moral truth, or speaking the truth -they all differ among people, and I challenge you to find an ultimate version. The truth of other topics can perhaps be approached more accurately through the scientific method - though still, the information is filtered through our own perspectives.

I didn't say I liked the WHOLE movie, it's just a happy coincidence that his interests and mine happen to intersect at so many junctures. *snip*
So... you're a rock-n-roll singing adventurous brain surgeon too? Wow! What are the chances? :)

Knowing the truth is the only way we can take charge of our own destiny. If you're living a lie, then you're not really living your life. You're just "living". I can never be your own life unless you know the truth about it...


...Or something.:p

If I could actually choose then I would choose happiness. But since I can't I am usually stuck depressed with only beliefs and my "truths". I do not think that there is a truth out there... so I get niether in reality.

Is that true, that you think some things are true? If it is, then there is truth in this world, and it exists apart from us (as a concept, i.e. it still requires an agent).
No, that was not my implication. I said that *I* think some things are true. That does not seperate it from myself, and i worded it that way to keep it joined to my own person.

In actual fact, I think some things are true, as seperate from my own perspective: chemical and physical laws for example. Other "truths" I think are totally individual-bound. In fact, i suspect that even the "independent" truths I gave as examples are still bound to we humans, and our collected observations - (well, at least othose of the scientific community that contributes to them).

If I could actually choose then I would choose happiness. But since I can't I am usually stuck depressed with only beliefs and my "truths". I do not think that there is a truth out there... so I get niether in reality.
It's funny but i knew a theme was ubiquitous when i'd posted my last on this thread .... you of course were in mind.

No matter where you go, there you are.
And as of this posting, you're on NS, arguing veracity vs. soul placation.
Not up OR down.


*sigh* Labyrinth reference.

http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=labyrinth+movie/v=2/SID=w/l=IVS/SIG=123ia6v0o/EXP=1136619638/*-http%3A//www.goblinbabe.com/images/alph&ralph.jpg

(Sorry about the caps, but I'm not retyping all of this)
ALPH: YOU CAN ONLY ASK ONE OF US.
RALPH: IT'S IN THE RULES.
RALPH: ONE OF US ALWAYS TELLS THE TRUTH,
RALPH: AND ONE OF US ALWAYS LIES.
RALPH: HE ALWAYS LIES.
ALPH: I DO NOT! I TELL THE TRUTH!
RALPH: OH, WHAT A LIE!
TIM: HA HA HA!
ALPH: HE'S THE LIAR!
SARAH: ALL RIGHT. ANSWER YES OR NO.
SARAH: WOULD HE TELL ME
SARAH: THAT THIS DOOR LEADS TO THE CASTLE?
ALPH: UH...
ALPH: WHAT DO YOU THINK?
ALPH: REALLY?
ALPH: YES.
SARAH: THEN THE OTHER DOOR LEADS TO THE CASTLE,
SARAH: AND THIS DOOR LEADS TO CERTAIN DEATH.
ALPH: HE COULD BE TELLING THE TRUTH.
SARAH: BUT THEN YOU WOULDN'T BE,
SARAH: SO IF YOU SAID HE SAID YES,
SARAH: THE ANSWER IS NO.
ALPH: I COULD BE TELLING THE TRUTH.
SARAH: THEN HE'D BE LYING.
SARAH: THE ANSWER WOULD STILL BE NO.
ALPH: IS THAT RIGHT?
RALPH: I DON'T KNOW. I'VE NEVER UNDERSTOOD IT.

So... you're a rock-n-roll singing adventurous brain surgeon too? Wow! What are the chances? :)
*FLORT*
Note: I said INTERESTS, not "faculties" :D
If i had the connections, the wherewithal and the success rate, and the hair, i just might be him.
I do play guitar. I do study current physics issues. I do find certain issues of human anatomy and psychology interesting. But past the interest, that's about it. I'm kinda like the garbage man on Dilbert.
Could be i'm a coward, but i think it'd be that in small degree coupled with a large degree of having come to a complete functional standstill after years of hyperanalytical behaviour.

*sigh* Labyrinth reference.

http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=labyrinth+movie/v=2/SID=w/l=IVS/SIG=123ia6v0o/EXP=1136619638/*-http%3A//www.goblinbabe.com/images/alph&ralph.jpg

(Sorry about the caps, but I'm not retyping all of this)
ALPH: YOU CAN ONLY ASK ONE OF US.
RALPH: IT'S IN THE RULES.
RALPH: ONE OF US ALWAYS TELLS THE TRUTH,
RALPH: AND ONE OF US ALWAYS LIES.
RALPH: HE ALWAYS LIES.
ALPH: I DO NOT! I TELL THE TRUTH!
RALPH: OH, WHAT A LIE!
TIM: HA HA HA!
ALPH: HE'S THE LIAR!
SARAH: ALL RIGHT. ANSWER YES OR NO.
SARAH: WOULD HE TELL ME
SARAH: THAT THIS DOOR LEADS TO THE CASTLE?
ALPH: UH...
ALPH: WHAT DO YOU THINK?
ALPH: REALLY?
ALPH: YES.
SARAH: THEN THE OTHER DOOR LEADS TO THE CASTLE,
SARAH: AND THIS DOOR LEADS TO CERTAIN DEATH.
ALPH: HE COULD BE TELLING THE TRUTH.
SARAH: BUT THEN YOU WOULDN'T BE,
SARAH: SO IF YOU SAID HE SAID YES,
SARAH: THE ANSWER IS NO.
ALPH: I COULD BE TELLING THE TRUTH.
SARAH: THEN HE'D BE LYING.
SARAH: THE ANSWER WOULD STILL BE NO.
ALPH: IS THAT RIGHT?
RALPH: I DON'T KNOW. I'VE NEVER UNDERSTOOD IT.
Nothing to sigh about as far as i'm concerned, i like this post!!!
*bows*
Now if you could also send an image of Jennifer Connelly ... *drool*
(before a string of yawner and irritating movies)

Your decision would be erased from your memory if you'd choose happiness.

Thus, if you chose happiness, you would not remember choosing it (because if you'd remember, you wouldn't be as happy, knowing that you might be living a lie).

Also, in this hypothetical scenario, choosing truth would make you much less happy than choosing happiness, 100% certain.

Hmm... in that case, I think I would probably choose happiness. Maybe. It would depend on the degree of unhappiness that truth was expected to cause me.

...wait, thinking about it, I'd choose truth, because there isn't any potential truth I can think of the knowledge of which would make me significantly less happy than I am now, and my current happiness level or even slightly below it is good enough for me to live out my life, and so I'd choose truth.

No, that was not my implication. I said that *I* think some things are true. That does not seperate it from myself, and i worded it that way to keep it joined to my own person.

In actual fact, I think some things are true, as seperate from my own perspective: chemical and physical laws for example. Other "truths" I think are totally individual-bound. In fact, i suspect that even the "independent" truths I gave as examples are still bound to we humans, and our collected observations - (well, at least othose of the scientific community that contributes to them).
Kewl, someone who thinks like me!

Kewl, someone who thinks like me!Anyone who uses the travesty of a word "kewl" definately does not think like me.

When did I say that truth and saddness are the same? I explicitly gave both options for truth: happiness and saddness. In the scenario the OP described, the thruthful option was one of lesser happiness than the untruthful option.
Sorry; my bad. It must have been when you said, "To all those who would choose truth, you are merely chosing saddness over happiness. There is no difference in the authenticity of each experience - one might as well be the other."

Our senses and experiences most certainly do have an effect on what is true. Grass is only green to us because the cones in our retina are formed a certain way. To bees, grass has a temerature. To other animals, grass has no tint. I certainly would dispute that truth is absolute - just look at moral truth, or speaking the truth -they all differ among people, and I challenge you to find an ultimate version. The truth of other topics can perhaps be approached more accurately through the scientific method - though still, the information is filtered through our own perspectives.
What is "moral" truth? "Right" and "wrong" are never truth, they are opinion.

You would dispute that truth is absolute --is that true?

No, that was not my implication. I said that *I* think some things are true. That does not seperate it from myself, and i worded it that way to keep it joined to my own person.
Regardless, is it true?

In actual fact, I think some things are true, as seperate from my own perspective: chemical and physical laws for example. Other "truths" I think are totally individual-bound. In fact, i suspect that even the "independent" truths I gave as examples are still bound to we humans, and our collected observations - (well, at least othose of the scientific community that contributes to them).
I propose that there are no truths that are "individual-bound".

Hmm... in that case, I think I would probably choose happiness. Maybe. It would depend on the degree of unhappiness that truth was expected to cause me.

...wait, thinking about it, I'd choose truth, because there isn't any truth I can think of any possible "truth" the knowledge of which would make me significantly less happy than I am now, and my current happiness level or even slightly below it is good enough for me to live out my life, and so I'd choose truth.

You know, thinking about what I've just said, I think it could all be summed up in the following sentence:

"I don't know what I would choose, because it would depend mostly on the practical considerations of the decision, but which you have tried to abstract away."

Willamena, I've made my perspective quite clear. You're making no effort to formulate an argument at all, but are merely jabbing questions at me that I've already answered.

I'll check the thread tomorrow, but for now, its bedtime.

*FLORT*
Note: I said INTERESTS, not "faculties" :D
If i had the connections, the wherewithal and the success rate, and the hair, i just might be him.
I do play guitar. I do study current physics issues. I do find certain issues of human anatomy and psychology interesting. But past the interest, that's about it. I'm kinda like the garbage man on Dilbert.
I'm probably the only one with a laminated poster of him on my bedroom wall.

The garbage man on Dilbert rocks!!

...wait, thinking about it, I'd choose truth, because there isn't any truth I can think of any possible "truth" the knowledge of which would make me significantly less happy than I am now, and my current happiness level or even slightly below it is good enough for me to live out my life, and so I'd choose truth.
Well done! That's very cool.

Nothing to sigh about as far as i'm concerned, i like this post!!!
*bows*
Now if you could also send an image of Jennifer Connelly ... *drool*
(before a string of yawner and irritating movies)


Granted.

http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=jennifer+connelly/v=2/SID=w/l=IVS/SIG=12mb3dcj7/EXP=1136621390/*-http%3A//www.goodbyestranger.com/hotties/Jennifer%20Connelly%202.jpg

http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=labyrinth+movie/v=2/SID=w/l=IVS/SIG=12l2dkrc3/EXP=1136621489/*-http%3A//www.das-mondlicht.de/Movies/Labyrinth/Gallery/hoggle02.jpg

Willamena, I've made my perspective quite clear. You're making no effort to formulate an argument at all, but are merely jabbing questions at me that I've already answered.
Seriously? I didn't get an answer...

Perhaps it's a communications problem...

(i.e. the questions are supposed to make you *think*!)
(damn. Another good thread gone to waste...)

Granted.

http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=jennifer+connelly/v=2/SID=w/l=IVS/SIG=12mb3dcj7/EXP=1136621390/*-http%3A//www.goodbyestranger.com/hotties/Jennifer%20Connelly%202.jpg

http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=labyrinth+movie/v=2/SID=w/l=IVS/SIG=12l2dkrc3/EXP=1136621489/*-http%3A//www.das-mondlicht.de/Movies/Labyrinth/Gallery/hoggle02.jpg
...guess who earned a fluffle?
:fluffle:
Are you interested in a fan club in your honor? ;)

Well done! That's very cool.

And d'oh, I realized I had typed a phrase twice there, as I see in the quote. I need to reread what I post...

...guess who earned a fluffle?
:fluffle:
Are you interested in a fan club in your honor? ;)

Thanks, but honestly I wouldn't know what to do with one. ;)

OT: I think someone should spend the rest of this thread lying and we should try to figure out who it is. But then again, I'm just seriously bored.

I'm probably the only one with a laminated poster of him on my bedroom wall.

The garbage man on Dilbert rocks!!
I do indeed dress like him on occasion, and, independent of domestic discourse, i take the trash out a few times a week. In some cases i'm paid in some fashion.
And i don't have a poster of him but that's pretty f*ckin' cool that you do. Did you ever watch the series, or is that a stupid question?
Or is that two questions and this one is the third? ;)

Granted.

http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=jennifer+connelly/v=2/SID=w/l=IVS/SIG=12mb3dcj7/EXP=1136621390/*-http%3A//www.goodbyestranger.com/hotties/Jennifer%20Connelly%202.jpg

http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=labyrinth+movie/v=2/SID=w/l=IVS/SIG=12l2dkrc3/EXP=1136621489/*-http%3A//www.das-mondlicht.de/Movies/Labyrinth/Gallery/hoggle02.jpg
The second one, the one with Hoggle, makes me think there's hope....
thanks for giving more creedence to ANOTHER fantastic pursuit of mine! ;)

I do indeed dress like him on occasion, and, independent of domestic discourse, i take the trash out a few times a week. In some cases i'm paid in some fashion.
And i don't have a poster of him but that's pretty f*ckin' cool that you do. Did you ever watch the series, or is that a stupid question?
Or is that two questions and this one is the third? ;)
Oh, man... apart from the movie and the comic book, I didn't know there was a series.

I'm deprived! (or depraved.... something like that).

Well done! That's very cool.
Seconded. *bows*
And i say this of my own free will, uncoerced or coached, happily and in truth.

Oh, man... apart from the movie and the comic book, I didn't know there was a series.
...and I don't think i know of a movie!! What? I mean the animated series that they put out on DVD, are you meaning the same or did i miss out? I'll be irked if that's the case.

I'm deprived! (or depraved.... something like that).
Ah, both work. Given the nature of this thread, a dichotomy can work for a person.

And i say this of my own free will, uncoerced or coached, happily and in truth.
LOL!

Don't you mean, "... happily and in opinion"? :)

...and I don't think i know of a movie!! What? I mean the animated series that they put out on DVD, are you meaning the same or did i miss out? I'll be irked if that's the case.
Animated! Cool... I'll look for that.

(Yes; you missed out (http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005JKEX/qid=1136536774/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/702-0418808-3161647).)

LoL!... Laugh while you can, Monkey Boy!

Animated! Cool... I'll look for that.

(Yes; you missed out (http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005JKEX/qid=1136536774/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/702-0418808-3161647).)

LoL!... Laugh while you can, Monkey Boy!
Argh i meant Dilbert movie!
:D

Truth

Happiness.

It will influence my subjective realtiy in a positive way.
Not knowing the truth, and not knowing that I'm being lied to, won't. Provided I never find out about it.

A thought provoking question. My gut level feeling is to go with the truth, although I do like to be happy--whatever happiness is. While most of us know what the definition of 'truth' is, the definition of 'happiness' is not so clear. Would that be a 'content with my circumstances' type of happy, or 'just found out I'm a dad' type of happiness, or 'wow, she really likes me', or the more sober 'I like my job, and my car, and my home, and my dog' type of happiness?

Some forms of happiness can vanish almost instantly, leaving you cold and miserable. Truth, on the other hand, doesn't change, so there is at least one advantage in knowing the truth over being happy.

let's weigh the options.

Happiness = Santa brings you gifts.
Truth = Your parents work, scrimp and save to buy you your gifts.

Happiness = Running Barefoot through the grass is fun
Truth = Without shoes, you run the risk of stepping on various things that can infect/kill you, and that's not counting Natural stuff like Rattlesnakes and such.

Happiness = Mmmmmm... Steak.....
Truth = Red meat kills, Mad Cow Desease, steroids and other chemicals in the beef.

Happiness = Taking Deep breaths of fresh air is refreshing.
Truth = The air is polluted and will probably cause you cancer.

Happiness = Ahhh... a nice cool glass of water...
Truth = that is lead filled, chemical filled and if you're going bottled... probably expensive.

Happiness = Getting toys for Christmas.
Truth = G.I. Joe glorifies Violence and Barbie is sexist.

Happiness = biting into a cool, crisp apple
Truth = that has been soaked in pesticide, dyed and waxed for appearance.

Happiness = "Fight the system, be a rebel!"
Truth = in the future, win or loose, you will be part of the system fighting the rebels.

to me... I really don't know.

Argh i meant Dilbert movie!
:D
Bah! ...stilll a Monkey Boy, though. ;)

A thought provoking question. My gut level feeling is to go with the truth, although I do like to be happy--whatever happiness is. While most of us know what the definition of 'truth' is, the definition of 'happiness' is not so clear. Would that be a 'content with my circumstances' type of happy, or 'just found out I'm a dad' type of happiness, or 'wow, she really likes me', or the more sober 'I like my job, and my car, and my home, and my dog' type of happiness?
Um, any of the above?

Some forms of happiness can vanish almost instantly, leaving you cold and miserable. Truth, on the other hand, doesn't change, so there is at least one advantage in knowing the truth over being happy.

On the axis provided by the OP I’d have to go to truth. The entire thing seems to be subjective to my own experience. That said I think that the poll was intentionally slanted this way. I realize that it would be impossible to tell precisely but it does not seem like equal amounts of truth and happiness are being offered. so my vote is a bit of a cop out. As a general rule; truth. On this and only this question; happiness.

Definitely truth. It's downright sickening how many people rather live with a lie and believe in imaginary god(s) :sniper:

let's weigh the options.

*snip*

to me... I really don't know.

If you'd know those truths, it would affect your behaviour and increase your safety (example: knowing that may make you NOT walk on grass), so that's not part of the original question.

Would that be a 'content with my circumstances' type of happy, or 'just found out I'm a dad' type of happiness, or 'wow, she really likes me', or the more sober 'I like my job, and my car, and my home, and my dog' type of happiness?

It would be a "loved one" happiness.

Definitely truth. It's downright sickening how many people rather live with a lie and believe in imaginary god(s)

Some people choose to believe in God/gods simply because it makes them happier (I considered it once). It's their choice. Of course, it becomes sickening when they start affecting others in any way, as this is a choice that should not affect others.



About this poll:

To me it seems that some people are so afraid of a lie that they'd give anything to know the truth. They'd give away happiness, their wives, even their families. They would give it all up just to know that it was all an illusion instead of living the illusion happily.

Truth
DP

This reminds me of Bender putting on that lens that lets humans see through the eyes of a Bending Unit

...whoa, it gives me a headache.

Bah! ...stilll a Monkey Boy, though. ;)
TRUTH is, i'm not really bothered by the idea that i descended from a common ancestor of Monkeys.
Works for me. Besides, people don't get too uptight when i fling excrement at them, material or figurative.