NationStates Jolt Archive

I have sinned and my thread was closed. I trolled apparently and a nice moderator called after a central Asian country closed me down and quite right too. in hindsight i shouldn't have singled out the Christians to troll on. I wouldn't have picked on the Buddhists or the Taoists. I hope the Christians can find it in their hearts to forgive me. to forgive is divine and all that.

anyway the point is here's my question for the Christians. a serious one this time. should god forgive all sinners, say at the end of time, even Satan - or should he rot in hell, as it were?

I have sinned and my thread was closed. I trolled apparently and a nice moderator called after a central Asian country closed me down and quite right too. in hindsight i shouldn't have singled out the Christians to troll on. I wouldn't have picked on the Buddhists or the Taoists. I hope the Christians can find it in their hearts to forgive me. to forgive is divine and all that.

anyway the point is here's my question for the Christians. a serious one this time. should god forgive all sinners, say at the end of time, even Satan - or should he rot in hell, as it were?
First of all, 'Katganistan' is not a real nation. Not here, not in Asia, not anywhere but the region in which Kat's interweb nation resides.

Second of all, BAD IDEA mocking the moderators right after an unofficial warning.

Third of all, are you actually meaning Satan, or Lucifer? If you're not bright enough to catch the difference, you probably don't deserve another chance at troll-feeding.

Simonist']are you actually meaning Satan, or Lucifer? If you're not bright enough to catch the difference, you probably don't deserve another chance at troll-feeding.

What is the difference? I always thought they were just different names for the same thing/dude/whatever

What is the difference? I always thought they were just different names for the same thing/dude/whatever
Originally speaking, in regards to the old texts, Satan is the Adversary whereas Lucifer was the one who lead the Angels Revolt and was cast down from Heaven. In the past hundred years or so they've become one and the same in the eyes and minds of the masses, because lots of people are too lazy to differentiate and therefore pass on misinformation.

Simonist']Originally speaking, in regards to the old texts, Satan is the Adversary whereas Lucifer was the one who lead the Angels Revolt and was cast down from Heaven. In the past hundred years or so they've become one and the same in the eyes and minds of the masses, because lots of people are too lazy to differentiate and therefore pass on misinformation.

fascinating. thanks:)

fascinating. thanks:)
Rise, and go forth into the fray, a smarter and better Warrior than before.

Simonist']Rise, and go forth into the fray, a smarter and better Warrior than before.

it's always good to learn. and to hijack threads.

**hits squishy meat things with a big piece of sharpened metal**

it's always good to learn. and to hijack threads.

**hits squishy meat things with a big piece of sharpened metal**
*raises eyebrow questioningly* is THAT how you earned that heron-marked blade?

hang on, the original jewish theology (IIRC) had no adversary. therefore whence satan? and how exactly are they different?

Simonist']First of all, 'Katganistan' is not a real nation. Not here, not in Asia, not anywhere but the region in which Kat's interweb nation resides.

Second of all, BAD IDEA mocking the moderators right after an unofficial warning.

Third of all, are you actually meaning Satan, or Lucifer? If you're not bright enough to catch the difference, you probably don't deserve another chance at troll-feeding.

Anything ending in 'anistan' makes me think of central Asia but i take you point.

I'm not mocking but contritely and apologetically conceding the justice of his actions and the wrong headedness of mine. I apologise to Christendom individually and collectively.

I thought I stick with Satan since he is in the bible. Lucifer was a Roman name for Venus (how art thou fallen from heaven oh day star son of the dawn) but the general point is the same whether you call him day star, Satan the adversary, Iblis the father of lies, Samael, Azazael... whatever

I don't know if you are so bright yourself and you don't seem so forgiving either. (But I forgive you) The early Christian schismatic Marcion believed that God would forgive the devil at the end of time and I alway thought that was very impressive as an idea.

What is the difference? I always thought they were just different names for the same thing/dude/whatever
I believe his real name is Alastair.

venus is son of nothing being a goddess of love. but anyway.

I believe his real name is Alastair.

that'd make me go evil

hang on, the original jewish theology (IIRC) had no adversary. therefore whence satan? and how exactly are they different?

see the book of Job (well worth a read)

hang on, the original jewish theology (IIRC) had no adversary. therefore whence satan? and how exactly are they different?
For instance.....read the book of Job. It's all about this tug-of-war between God and "The Adversary", with poor Job as the rope.

That would be Satan, as taught about five generations ago. Nowadays it wouldn't make a difference who was who.

As for what the Jewish beliefs hold to, I don't know. By "old texts" I meant the first times they were taught as Christian texts, therefore in Latin or Greek -- I don't know any other dead languages well enough to argue etymology, so whatever the Jews teach is beyond me.

i'm sure it's worth a read but i don't have a bible here and now, you wanna just tell me? briefly?

A holy God cannot forgive sin. He must punish it, otherwise He would cease to be holy and just. So He punished His Son Jesus Christ on the cross for man ,so whoever believes in Him and accepts this sacrfice can be saved. Christ died for all men, not the angels. Angels can never be forgiven. This shows man's special place in God's heart.

And as far as lucifer and satan being 2 different personages, the story of lucifer being cast out of Heaven is retold in Revelation 12 using the name satan. Read the Bible.

venus is son of nothing being a goddess of love. but anyway.

Venus, sweetie is a planet, its association with dieties have been many and various including that I cite. google it if you don't believe me.

I don't know if you are so bright yourself and you don't seem so forgiving either. (But I forgive you) The early Christian schismatic Marcion believed that God would forgive the devil at the end of time and I alway thought that was very impressive as an idea.
How am I not forgiving? What unforgiving thing have I done to you? That would be a big resounding "nothing", because you haven't wronged me -- therefore, there's nothing I need to forgive you for.

(Unless you're another example of the sickeningly rampant puppetry going around these days, in which case I don't feel I should need to forgive you, because I don't know what your primary name is.)

what happened to the god is love thing?

Simonist']Originally speaking, in regards to the old texts, Satan is the Adversary whereas Lucifer was the one who lead the Angels Revolt and was cast down from Heaven. In the past hundred years or so they've become one and the same in the eyes and minds of the masses, because lots of people are too lazy to differentiate and therefore pass on misinformation.

Okay, that surprised me. After reading both Wikipedia entries (i.e. for Satan and for Lucifer), I certainly can see that things are not very clear-cut, what with both these names signifying different concepts in different religions. However, any "confusion" or merging of Satan and Lucifer into one, seems not to be the result of the last few hundred years and lazy people, but a rather "official" reading stemming partly from over 2000 years ago.

I'm obviously not an expert on the topic, though.

I have sinned and my thread was closed. I trolled apparently and a nice moderator called after a central Asian country closed me down and quite right too. in hindsight i shouldn't have singled out the Christians to troll on. I wouldn't have picked on the Buddhists or the Taoists. I hope the Christians can find it in their hearts to forgive me. to forgive is divine and all that.

anyway the point is here's my question for the Christians. a serious one this time. should god forgive all sinners, say at the end of time, even Satan - or should he rot in hell, as it were?

Unless im very very much mistaken it was the trolling and not the singling out of one group to troll on that was the issue.

Assuming that (a) time will end, (b) God exists, and (c) Satan exists God should not forgive Satan because Satan never sinned. To the best of my (admitedly limited) knowledge Lucifer and the rebel angels rebelled before the creation of Earth, and by extension Adam and Eve. I also understood it that before Adam and Eve sinned there was no sin. The rest I beleive is obvious.

...and it is said, in the Great Book, that when you take your last breath of life, and pass on, then you will stand before Him, the great Al Pacino, and he, with his great mace, will either smite you, or open the gates to the netherworld

...even the greatest and most vile sinners will receive just treatment, and if they have dedicated some of their life to the righting of their wrongs, then they may be able to pass on

...although it is said that it must be just among all people, with their chances upon going to Heaven, the great Pacino has the right to distinguish upon any race, sex, or sexual preference upon his choosing. Whether this may be racist or not, we cannot argue in the eyes of He who controls all.

what is rebellion against god if not a sin? is it because they had no free will, no choice, and therefore could not be held responsible?

I'd like to call attention, once again, to this amusing coincidence.
Thread starter:Robbobobbodom
Poster:1111111Bobborobbodom

Is it the same person?
If so why waste time using two accounts?

i'm sure it's worth a read but i don't have a bible here and now, you wanna just tell me? briefly?

Simonist summarised it. all i would add is I see it less as a tug of war than God giving Job into Satan's power. Job loses his family, his house his property health etc and when he says to god 'where's the justice in this' (i'm paraphrasing) God says 'where were you when i laid the foundations of the earth?' so in the end Job puts his hand over his mouth. I was left with the impression of an all powerful but amoral god and a weak suffering but righteous man but maybe that's just me

Okay, that surprised me. After reading both Wikipedia entries (i.e. for Satan and for Lucifer), I certainly can see that things are not very clear-cut, what with both these names signifying different concepts in different religions. However, any "confusion" or merging of Satan and Lucifer into one, seems not to be the result of the last few hundred years and lazy people, but a rather "official" reading stemming partly from over 2000 years ago.

I'm obviously not an expert on the topic, though.
Well, as a theology student who's being taught by theology 'experts' (if such a thing can even exist), we've been instructed for the past two semesters that they are NOT one in the same. Wikipedia, though usually startlingly accurate because of multiple sources, is something I'm less likely to trust than people who I know have studied in the field of religion and religious texts for more than 30 years.

A holy God cannot forgive sin. He must punish it, otherwise He would cease to be holy and just. So He punished His Son Jesus Christ on the cross for man ,so whoever believes in Him and accepts this sacrfice can be saved. Christ died for all men, not the angels. Angels can never be forgiven. This shows man's special place in God's heart.

And as far as lucifer and satan being 2 different personages, the story of lucifer being cast out of Heaven is retold in Revelation 12 using the name satan. Read the Bible.

'give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses' read the bible

I have sinned and my thread was closed. I trolled apparently and a nice moderator called after a central Asian country closed me down and quite right too. in hindsight i shouldn't have singled out the Christians to troll on. I wouldn't have picked on the Buddhists or the Taoists. I hope the Christians can find it in their hearts to forgive me. to forgive is divine and all that.

anyway the point is here's my question for the Christians. a serious one this time. should god forgive all sinners, say at the end of time, even Satan - or should he rot in hell, as it were?
I say God should forgive all sinners if they want to be forgiven.

Simonist']How am I not forgiving? What unforgiving thing have I done to you? That would be a big resounding "nothing", because you haven't wronged me -- therefore, there's nothing I need to forgive you for.

(Unless you're another example of the sickeningly rampant puppetry going around these days, in which case I don't feel I should need to forgive you, because I don't know what your primary name is.)

i've already forgiven you what more can i say

Okay, that surprised me. After reading both Wikipedia entries (i.e. for Satan and for Lucifer), I certainly can see that things are not very clear-cut, what with both these names signifying different concepts in different religions. However, any "confusion" or merging of Satan and Lucifer into one, seems not to be the result of the last few hundred years and lazy people, but a rather "official" reading stemming partly from over 2000 years ago.

I'm obviously not an expert on the topic, though.

I think you've got this right though

'give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses' read the bible

is that actually in the bible?

Anything ending in 'anistan' makes me think of central Asia but i take you point.

I'm not mocking but contritely and apologetically conceding the justice of his actions and the wrong headedness of mine. I apologise to Christendom individually and collectively.

I thought I stick with Satan since he is in the bible. Lucifer was a Roman name for Venus (how art thou fallen from heaven oh day star son of the dawn) but the general point is the same whether you call him day star, Satan the adversary, Iblis the father of lies, Samael, Azazael... whatever

I don't know if you are so bright yourself and you don't seem so forgiving either. (But I forgive you) The early Christian schismatic Marcion believed that God would forgive the devil at the end of time and I alway thought that was very impressive as an idea.

And just why is that impressive? To think that God would decide to ignore sin is impressive? To think that God would decide to ignore untold millenia of rebellion without so much as an apology is impressive?

Or is it because one hopes that if Satan could be forgiven without ceasing his sin/rebellion, anyone could be forgiven without accepting Christ/ceasing rebellion against God?

'give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses' read the bible

I should have clarified. He can forgive specific sins, but the thought and knowledge that we have sinned is still there and He requires punishment. This is what the OT sacrifices were for. The only problem with those: animals dying for man's sin. It wasn't enough to satisfy God's wrath. He had to become a man and affect the cleansing Himself.

Unless im very very much mistaken it was the trolling and not the singling out of one group to troll on that was the issue.

Assuming that (a) time will end, (b) God exists, and (c) Satan exists God should not forgive Satan because Satan never sinned. To the best of my (admitedly limited) knowledge Lucifer and the rebel angels rebelled before the creation of Earth, and by extension Adam and Eve. I also understood it that before Adam and Eve sinned there was no sin. The rest I beleive is obvious.

well. i'm going to have to mull that one over. thanks

iron spigot, you make what is according to the story the greatest act of loving sacrifice conceivable sound like genocide "effect the cleansing"

...and it is said, in the Great Book, that when you take your last breath of life, and pass on, then you will stand before Him, the great Al Pacino, and he, with his great mace, will either smite you, or open the gates to the netherworld

...even the greatest and most vile sinners will receive just treatment, and if they have dedicated some of their life to the righting of their wrongs, then they may be able to pass on

...although it is said that it must be just among all people, with their chances upon going to Heaven, the great Pacino has the right to distinguish upon any race, sex, or sexual preference upon his choosing. Whether this may be racist or not, we cannot argue in the eyes of He who controls all.

there is justice and then there is mercy and the treasuries of mercy are with Allah, as the Muslims say

i've already forgiven you what more can i say
Now you're skirting the issue. That clearly shows cowardice to me.....or lack of a suitable response, which probably means you had nothing to go on in the first place.

Whatever. I'm over it. I've come to the independent conclusion that you were just talking out of your ass.

Simonist']Well, as a theology student who's being taught by theology 'experts' (if such a thing can even exist), we've been instructed for the past two semesters that they are NOT one in the same. Wikipedia, though usually startlingly accurate because of multiple sources, is something I'm less likely to trust than people who I know have studied in the field of religion and religious texts for more than 30 years.

Fair enough :) .

One more question though, worthy of a third-grader: Who of the two is in charge of hell, then? Or, put differently, who of the two even is in hell? And where, then, is the other one?

I'd like to call attention, once again, to this amusing coincidence.
Thread starter:Robbobobbodom
Poster:1111111Bobborobbodom

Is it the same person?
If so why waste time using two accounts?

amusement?

Wait. this is a game right?

Fair enough :) .

One more question though, worthy of a third-grader: Who of the two is in charge of hell, then? Or, put differently, who of the two even is in hell? And where, then, is the other one?
Wow, I like your attitude. "You're taught something in college different than what I looked up on the internet, therefore you must be a real dumbass". How open-minded. Here I am sharing what I've been told by instructors and believe to be true based off of study and projects, and you're toting that clearly, because Wikipedia says otherwise, we must all be ridiculously dumb.

Hell is not at all an exclusive club. Nobody said that it's one or the other IN HELL. Unless you're thinking of some sort of "This underworld ain't big enough for the both of us" sort of throw-down, I don't really understand the point of your all-too-confrontational question. Trying to prove something? Why bother? Individual beliefs are more important in the long run.

see the book of Job (well worth a read)

It's important to note, however, that Satan was an angel under the command of God and not the enemy of God as portrayed later.

And just why is that impressive? To think that God would decide to ignore sin is impressive? To think that God would decide to ignore untold millenia of rebellion without so much as an apology is impressive?

Or is it because one hopes that if Satan could be forgiven without ceasing his sin/rebellion, anyone could be forgiven without accepting Christ/ceasing rebellion against God?

oh yeah, I should have made it clear that the devil was imagined to be contrite. but then even if he weren't, how would God turn the other cheek?

amusement?

Wait. this is a game right?

Well if it is a coincidence it's pretty amusing. If not it's confusing. Do you have two accounts? If yes, then why? And why switch between them?

is that actually in the bible?

it's in both Luke and Matthew

c'mon, i might be misreading this, but i don't think the question was asked on that level. bit harsh.

iron spigot, you make what is according to the story the greatest act of loving sacrifice conceivable sound like genocide "effect the cleansing"

How so? He had to die for sin. He hates sin so much, but He loves us even more. That is why He died. To know how holy God is, is to realize how much He actually does love us.

Go, my son, and spam/troll no more.
3 day forum ban for the both of you.