NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/military_photos_2004101123.asp

I am at a loss for words. That thing is tough!

Pretty amazing for a vehicle that most people (I sadly must admit I was one of them) thought would be a death trap.

Wow!

http://www.kmweg.com/gb/produkte/puma_special.php

In that photo, it looks held together by duck tape and super glue.

In that photo, it looks held together by duck tape and super glue.

And yet it still ran, and the guys inside survived!

http://www.kmweg.com/gb/produkte/puma_special.php


The marines are testing something similar to that, just a little heavier. Wheels would be better though, for mobility and speed. The puma will probably make a fine IFV. Hell, the germans make good stuff in General. Heckler and Koch, Mercedes Benz, Watches, etc.

http://www.kmweg.com/gb/produkte/puma_special.php

Yes, we all know you're a big fan of the Puma. :p

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/...2004101123.asp

I am at a loss for words. That thing is tough!

Based on the photo, it looks like most of the bomb's damage was done by over-pressure from the explosion, not shrapnel. In fact, it doesn't look like many pieces of shrapnel (if any) struck the vehicle. So it's not a true test of the strength of the vehicle.

Also, you mis-titled this thread. It should be, "The Stryker: Now roll-over/500lb IED tested!" This is because there is a large difference between a 500-lb IED and what is typically referred to as a '500 lb bomb': either a 500-lb JDAM or iron 'dumb-bomb'. Either of which would probably have destroyed the Stryker out-right. Failing that, it would be on fire, and half the crew would be dead from shrapnel piercing the armor and then ricocheting through out the interior of the vehicle.

Yes, we all know you're a big fan of the Puma. :p



Based on the photo, it looks like most of the bomb's damage was done by over-pressure from the explosion, not shrapnel. In fact, it doesn't look like many pieces of shrapnel (if any) struck the vehicle. So it's not a true test of the strength of the vehicle.

Also, you mis-titled this thread. It should be, "The Stryker: Now roll-over/500lb IED tested!" This is because there is a large difference between a 500-lb IED and what is typically referred to as a '500 lb bomb': either a 500-lb JDAM or iron 'dumb-bomb'. Either of which would probably have destroyed the Stryker out-right. Failing that, it would be on fire, and half the crew would be dead from shrapnel piercing the armor and then ricocheting through out the interior of the vehicle.

Car bomb.

...Heckler and Koch, Mercedes Benz, Watches, etc.
Watches?

Yes, we all know you're a big fan of the Puma. :p
Maybe it's just because, if I do go back to Germany soon, I will have to do my military service.
And if that happens, I will go to the Panzergrenadiers (barring that, Armoured Artillery). So these things are sorta up my alley.

Considering that it's tactical role leaves it facing a lot more EID's then conventional munitions that means it is doing it's job.

Watches?


Maybe it's just because, if I do go back to Germany soon, I will have to do my military service.
And if that happens, I will go to the Panzergrenadiers (barring that, Armoured Artillery). So these things are sorta up my alley.

Or is that switzerland? Almost Germany. :D. Isn't rolex German?

Or is that switzerland? Almost Germany. :D. Isn't rolex German?
Rolex, Swatch etc are all Swiss.

Which is almost German, but only in an area - in other areas it's almost French, and almost Italian.

Watches?there is Glashuette.

Watches?


Maybe it's just because, if I do go back to Germany soon, I will have to do my military service.
And if that happens, I will go to the Panzergrenadiers (barring that, Armoured Artillery). So these things are sorta up my alley.

Still have conscription in Germany?

Still have conscription in Germany?
Yep, and it'll stay. It's important to remember that the Bundeswehr works differently from for example the US Army, and so it's not conscription in the way it for example worked in the draft during Vietnam.

Germany has as its primary tool a professional army, then a larger core of conscripts who chose to lengthen their service, and then a bunch of normal conscripts, who had the choice between military, and social service.

Pretty amazing for a vehicle that most people (I sadly must admit I was one of them) thought would be a death trap.


Yes I thought this too. When they first announced these things I thought "oh crap" people were going to get killed. Thankfully we were both proven wrong. :p

http://www.kmweg.com/gb/produkte/puma_special.php

Neu, How do these stack against the bradleys?

social service.

PFFF....:D

Neu, How do these stack against the bradleys?
I'd think they'd pwn them. Bradleys are sorta old by now, these things are so new that they haven't even been delivered yet.
They've got state of the art armour (probably the reason they're pretty heavy), a new autocannon, some sort of microwave-based heat seeking missile diversion system and so on.

I'd be disappointed if Rheinmetall and KMW couldn't build something brand new that would be significantly better than something that's been around for a decade or so.

I'd think they'd pwn them. Bradleys are sorta old by now, these things are so new that they haven't even been delivered yet.
They've got state of the art armour (probably the reason they're pretty heavy), a new autocannon, some sort of microwave-based heat seeking missile diversion system and so on.

I'd be disappointed if Rheinmetall and KMW couldn't build something brand new that would be significantly better than something that's been around for a decade or so.

According to the movie "Pentagon Wars," (starring Kelsey Grammar, T.V.'s Frasier,) the Bradley, at least at first, was a mess.

Having read up a bit on it after that, I have to conclude that the movie wasn't entirely apocryphal.

I'd think they'd pwn them. Bradleys are sorta old by now, these things are so new that they haven't even been delivered yet.
They've got state of the art armour (probably the reason they're pretty heavy), a new autocannon, some sort of microwave-based heat seeking missile diversion system and so on.

I'd be disappointed if Rheinmetall and KMW couldn't build something brand new that would be significantly better than something that's been around for a decade or so.

What about the Warrior?

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/military_photos_2004101123.asp

I am at a loss for words. That thing is tough!
I know! I want one! [ begs Uncle Sam ]

What about the Warrior?
First up - I'm certainly not a specialist.

Second, well, I assume that the newer something is, the better it is. The producers of the Puma will probably have learned a lot from previous programs, including the Warrior, and tried to address any weaknesses there.

The basic concept of the Warrior is old too, but they recently started an upgrade program, they want to keep them going until 2035.

I'm thinking that the Puma may end up being a little better because it was designed specifically with the new era of irregular warfare in mind, along with the ability to take on everything from infantry, over MBTs and helicopters. At this point, it also has better armour, which shouldn't surprise because it is pretty heavy. And it s turret is fully automated, so the crew is better protected. But the Swiss have ordered Warriors with the same turret mounted on them, so upgrades are easily done.

But with the right upgrades, I wouldn't think there'd be much of a difference between all of them, Bradley, Puma, Warrior or Dardo.

http://www.global-defence.com/2005/Utilities/article.php?id=77

Still have conscription in Germany?yes and it sucks. as male you have to go to a government doctor, when you turn 18, there you have an exam, complete with urin test and feeling the genitals. the results come into your file. the exam isnt volluntary, if you dont show up, the police will come and get you. if you object to military service because of religion, you can file a request to work of your time in community service instead. if you dont, then it is off to the barracks, where you serve for something like $10 a day.
the whole system is a huge strain on the defense budget, but there is a political motivation to keep it that way. there is fear, that a professional army could one day be used against the people in a military coup or by a corrupt government. ofcourse examples like the tienamen square massacre do nothing to erode that belief.According to the movie "Pentagon Wars," (starring Kelsey Grammar, T.V.'s Frasier,) the Bradley, at least at first, was a mess.according to the movie "Rambo" (starring Sylvester Stallone) we dont need APCs, IFVs etc. at all. all it takes are a few good men, that will be trained to become ubersoldiers.

the whole system is a huge strain on the defense budget, but there is a political motivation to keep it that way. there is fear, that a professional army could one day be used against the people in a military coup or by a corrupt government. ofcourse examples like the tienamen square massacre do nothing to erode that belief.
Because there are so many examples of all-volunteer armies initiating or carrying out on the orders of an elected official a coup over the normal government in first-world countries.

Because there are so many examples of all-volunteer armies initiating or carrying out on the orders of an elected official a coup over the normal government in first-world countries.
How about Germany? It makes for a sorta relevant example, doesn't it?

The idea is that you can't have the army exist seperately from the government and the people, as a sort of seperate state within a state.

i'm pretty sure it's still vulnerable to any type of anti-armor weapon, even an rpg

big explosions usually don't have much penetrating power.

i'm pretty sure it's still vulnerable to any type of anti-armor weapon, even an rpg

big explosions usually don't have much penetrating power.


Strikers are very RPG resistant. They have slat armor on the side which sets off the RPG before it comes into contact with the hull of the vehicle, reducing it's penetrating power considerably.

Strikers are very RPG resistant. They have slat armor on the side which sets off the RPG before it comes into contact with the hull of the vehicle, reducing it's penetrating power considerably.

Assuming that the insurgent isn't firing it from a second or third story window....

Still have conscription in Germany?
In name only. You can get out of it rather easily. And if you fail that, you can always do social service instead of serving in the military.

In name only. You can get out of it rather easily. And if you fail that, you can always do social service instead of serving in the military.
You're probably right...on their website I just saw that for this new year they have a whopping 18.500 new conscripts. Out of a country of almost 90 million.

You're probably right...on their website I just saw that for this new year they have a whopping 18.500 new conscripts. Out of a country of almost 90 million.Germany can't afford a big army anymore, especially since France, Luxembourg, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Poland, the Czech Republic, Austria, and Switzerland are friends, and not threats. Whether you get taken usually depends on whether you really, really want to go and the mood of the person deciding.

Also lets not forget. If you choose social service you have to do it twice as long as your conscription would have been. I would rather go to boot camp then wipe the butts of 90 year olds and bathe them :p

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/military_photos_2004101123.asp

I am at a loss for words. That thing is tough!
It's because it wasnt caught in the blast (which would penetrate the armour) merely hit by the overpressure. Not suprising, really. If the bomb had been under the vehicle, there would have been nothing left.

Cybach']Also lets not forget. If you choose social service you have to do it twice as long as your conscription would have been. I would rather go to boot camp then wipe the butts of 90 year olds and bathe them :pMilitary service is 9 months, social service 1 year. And there's a lot more than wiping the butts of 90 year olds that you can do for social service...

Build More.

I like the original Puma, even if it is heavily outclassed today.
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/791ca1c1.jpg

That is quite nice. My favourite US tank is the Chaffee:

http://www.armyvehicles.dk/images/m24chaffee.jpg

Assuming that the insurgent isn't firing it from a second or third story window....

RPGs need to hit a flat surface to really detonate, where they can take advantage of thinner armor and send more spall in.

It's because it wasnt caught in the blast (which would penetrate the armour) merely hit by the overpressure. Not suprising, really. If the bomb had been under the vehicle, there would have been nothing left.

What I said....

RPGs need to hit a flat surface to really detonate, where they can take advantage of thinner armor and send more spall in.

I thought the top armor on that thing was pretty flat....

oh it is a deathtrap, if you were in one when anything like that happened to it you would be a paste thats the problem with the thing lol.

The original RPG was/is a HEAT weapon, high Explosive Anti Tank, which creates a jet f superheated material to penetrate armor. Predetonating on the slats will dissapate the jet in a fashion, to prevent armor penetration.
The newest RPG, (disremember the number) has actually penetrated the "armpit" armor of the M1 Abrams. To believe a lightly armored APC can withstand that force better than the best supertank is somewhat illogical.
BTW, the Stryker can also be fitted with a remote controlled 105mm cannon, with 12 round revolver cylinder for loading - empties are literally ejected over the back of the vehicle, kinda funny to watch.
Wheels have a lot of advantages in certain terrain, and a lot of disadvatages in other, tailor your equipment to the mission. Personally, I like the South African Eland, older, but mean as all get out.....and nobody make a better mine proof APC than the standby Buffalo!

Too bad that EFP's and shaped charges can still pass right through it. Oh well, nothings perfect.
The only way that the Stryker's armor can deflect the shaped RPG round is due to the 'metal rod' upgrade, which places what looks like shopping cart mesh about 8 inches from the hull, detonating the RPG before impact on the hull, or by using reactive armor, which explodes outward when hit, disrupting the shaped charge's explosion.

RPG's don't have shaped charge warheads. They're literally just HE bombs on a small rocket. That's why they're so cheap.

The Russians did build a shaped charge anti-tank rocket, but it looked more like a WWII Bazooka, and they never did get all the bugs out of it. It was never deployed in large numbers, and eventually scrapped by the Brezhnev regime.

I'd think they'd pwn them. Bradleys are sorta old by now, these things are so new that they haven't even been delivered yet.

But does the Stryker some with a chain gun capable of eating Russian Tanks?

What I said....



I thought the top armor on that thing was pretty flat....

It is. it's the one area that is vulnerable to RPGs. However you aren't going to get a 'flat' shot on one by climbing on a rooftop.

RPG's don't have shaped charge warheads. They're literally just HE bombs on a small rocket. That's why they're so cheap.

The Russians did build a shaped charge anti-tank rocket, but it looked more like a WWII Bazooka, and they never did get all the bugs out of it. It was never deployed in large numbers, and eventually scrapped by the Brezhnev regime.



But does the Stryker some with a chain gun capable of eating Russian Tanks?

The striker carries infantrymen. GI's are a Russian tank's worst enemy...next to about 50 other things.

But does the Stryker some with a chain gun capable of eating Russian Tanks?
Not that I know off.

But pretty much all IFVs everywhere are now upgrading to this MK 30-2 ABM (http://www.rheinmetall-detec.com/index.php?lang=3&fid=1501&action=pd), or something very similar, which is an autocannon and fires AP-Rounds pretty fast, pretty far, pretty accurately. So older MBTs would have to watch out.

I'd still put my money on a T-90 though against any sort of IFV. If the crew is any good.

Well, any of the Russian Tanks had it all over the Bradley in terms of range anyway. That Chain Gun just made it able to go head to head with a T-72 in an Urban or other close quarters environment.

Incidentally, PLEASE tell me the T-90 has some kind of laminate armour, and isn't yet another useless steel-shell?

Incidentally, PLEASE tell me the T-90 has some kind of laminate armour, and isn't yet another useless steel-shell?
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/t90/
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/t-90.htm

It's derived from the T-72, and they stick to that reactive armour idea. But it seems to be pretty well-protected.

Well, any of the Russian Tanks had it all over the Bradley in terms of range anyway. That Chain Gun just made it able to go head to head with a T-72 in an Urban or other close quarters environment.

Incidentally, PLEASE tell me the T-90 has some kind of laminate armour, and isn't yet another useless steel-shell?

Run it through Chechnya a few times first, see if it lasts.

HA! They finally did it! ERA over laminate armour!

Doesn't say what type of laminate, though. But that's got to give better survivability than their old steel armour plate.