NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060104/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_sharon_6;_ylt=As_JV2VwU8hGhV.tlbN.0dnuyucA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

It will be interesting to see how this affects his new party.

Get well soon.

Let's hope that Labour win the Israeli election, although, of course, it would be terrible if they did so because of someone's illness, even if Sharon is little more than a war criminal.

It was quite terrible to see Hanan Ashrawi yesterday stopped from campaigning in Jerusalem by Israeli police. Hardly the actions of a democratic state.

Now it's a massive brain hemorrhage. OY VEY!!!

I doubt this will help Labor. They are a weakparty. Peres was their only leader and he is a part of the new party with Sharon. I think the new party and Likud will be the major ones. The elections will be interesting. I'm pulling for Netanyahu and Likud.

Now it's a massive brain hemorrhage. OY VEY!!!

I doubt this will help Labor. They are a weakparty. Peres was their only leader and he is a part of the new party with Sharon. I think the new party and Likud will be the major ones. The elections will be interesting. I'm pulling for Netanyahu and Likud.
Netanyahu scares me. He's a very good speaker, highly articulate. But, his views and likely policies are quite clearly not likely to do much to help the peace process.

Netanyahu scares me. He's a very good speaker, highly articulate. But, his views and likely policies are quite clearly not likely to do much to help the peace process.
Terrorism was at an all time low during his time as PM. Israel needs him, besides, I guarantee Iran will never get nukes if he is in power.

Netanyahu scares me. He's a very good speaker, highly articulate. But, his views and likely policies are quite clearly not likely to do much to help the peace process.
I miss Menachem Begin. And Rabin, before that smacktard-of-an-asshole Yigal Amir assasinated him.:mad:

I miss Menachem Begin. And Rabin, before that smacktard-of-an-asshole Yigal Amir assasinated him.:mad:
Yeah, but if there is any dead Israeli I want alive again, it is Moshe Dayan. He kicked some serious ass.

Netanyahu scares me. He's a very good speaker, highly articulate. But, his views and likely policies are quite clearly not likely to do much to help the peace process.
He did pretty damn well during his term. Two agreements signed, Arab Hebron governance transferred to the Palestinians- and all that while keeping Palestinian terror on record low. Plus he's trying to evict the extreme right from the Likud.

Netanyahu was talking tougher than his actual positions are, mostly because Sharon has hijacked the center stage rhetorics and if Bibi was to talk moderate, he would be seen as Sharon's shadow. Not the best way to boost his election chances.

Sadly, I don't see Sharon recovering from this well enough to run for the elections. I hope he gets better soon though.

The Kadima party will definitely collapse without him. It's a one man party, basically. I still haven't decided if it's a good or a bad thing though.

Anyone know the exact nature of this "hole" in his heart? I'd wager a patent foramen ovale, but there really is little detail in this story.

Anyone know the exact nature of this "hole" in his heart? I'd wager a patent foramen ovale, but there really is little detail in this story.
Yep, you got it right.

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Cardiology/Strokes/tb/2412

Cerebral Hemmorage.

I don't know if he'll be around much longer. :(

Its a shame. The PM who is striving to find peace in the middle east and to have this happen :(

Cerebral Hemmorage.

I don't know if he'll be around much longer. :(

Its a shame. The PM who is striving to find peace in the middle east and to have this happen :(
He is 77 years old and overweight. I guess this was bound to happen. :( Get better please.

He is 77 years old and overweight. I guess this was bound to happen. :( Get better please.

I hope he does get better as well.

*says a prayer for his health to get better*

Yep, you got it right.

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Cardiology/Strokes/tb/2412

And I was actually thinking of CardioSEAL when I read the description of the device as an umbrella. I should have wagered money...

Its a shame. The PM who is striving to find peace in the middle east and to have this happen :(

How was he striving to find peace? He withdrew the Israelis only from Gaza so he could more easily bombard alleged(!) terrorists there (you know: no trial, no verdict, just air-strikes based on presumptions). And he always increased the Jewish settlement in the West Bank around which he built the land-grab-fence. I have actually doubted his motives and means from the beginning. For me he has always been the devil in (poor) disguise.

How was he striving to find peace? He withdrew the Israelis only from Gaza so he could more easily bombard alleged(!) terrorists there (you know: no trial, no verdict, just air-strikes based on presumptions). And he always increased the Jewish settlement in the West Bank around which he built the land-grab-fence. I have actually doubted his motives and means from the beginning. For me he has always been the devil in (poor) disguise.

I suggest you go back and check on those bombings Ke-en-gir. You might be surprised that those attacks are on locations that attacks were launched against Israel after they pulled out. It is what we call self-defense.

If you bothered to actually follow the press, which apparently you dont, you will see more progress being made or trying to be made because of what Sharon did.

Don't let your prejudices get in the way of the truth.

Sharon was by no means the best in israeli politics or history, but it seems as though he's been genuinely trying to fix things this last year or two.

If his intentions were truly good, this is a great loss.

In any case, requiescat in pace.

This is not great news.

Sharon might have gotten enough people from the Right to vote for him. While I don't agree with many of his policies (and especially not with his past), he still at least tried to get things moving forward one way or another.

Likud, I don't think they would even try. If this Centrist Party doesn't work out, because Sharon can't run, many moderates will probably vote Likud rather than Labour.

I hope he gets well soon, because it's either him, or nothing right now.

Likud in Israel and Hamas in Palestine...hmm, what a constellation. :(

Likud in Israel and Hamas in Palestine...hmm, what a constellation. :(

And not a good one either :(

I don't like Sharon one bit. He's the reason I wanna nuke Isreal. Hopefully, when he passes, Israel will get a better leader than him, IMO. :)

I'm going to hate myself later for saying this but I really hate it when people cheer over a current leader or a former leader's death or pray one does die. It really is sad to see :(

I'm going to hate myself later for saying this but I really hate it when people cheer over a current leader or a former leader's death or pray one does die. It really is sad to see :(
As if you didn't do the same with Arafat.

I just think it was irresponsible of Sharon to eat the way he did in his position.

The day before Mr Sharon was admitted to hospital, he was reportedly seen feasting on kebabs, steaks in sauce, lamb ribs, salads and various cakes.

A journalist with Israel's Maariv newspaper described it as "a typical Sharon menu".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4559464.stm

I just hope the best for him.

As if you didn't do the same with Arafat.

He was a terrorist and not a head of state. Sharon is the PM of Israel. Big difference.

He was a terrorist and not a head of state. Sharon is the PM of Israel. Big difference.


Dont play semantics corny, you'll dig yourself into another hole.

Dont play semantics corny, you'll dig yourself in another hole.

Arafat was a terrorist.

He was a terrorist and not a head of state. Sharon is the PM of Israel. Big difference.
You can imagine my response.

I won't post it though, cuz that would be a hijack. Suffice to say that he was the head of the Palestinian Authority for some time, which at times was as good as a state.

You can imagine my response.

I won't post it though, cuz that would be a hijack. Suffice to say that he was the head of the Palestinian Authority for some time, which at times was as good as a state.

I didn't recognize it. It didn't have a capitol. Under I.L. the P.A. didn't constitute a state.

Arafat was a terrorist.


And head of the palestinian authority, signed oslo accords with the israeli PM, &c &c &c &c.

A head of state (de facto state perhaps).

Enough hole digging.

I imagine there are quite a few people who think Sharon is a terrorist.

I assume you'd be alright with them being happy?

Enough hole digging.

*snip*

Believe what you will but Sharon is PM of a soveriegn State. Arafat was not.

I didn't recognize it.


Sort of like how some people don't recognize israel, I see.

Perhaps when sharon passes away, you and whoever doesnt recognize israel and thinks sharon was a terrorist can have a big celebration, a joint arafat-sharon death party.

Sort of like how some people don't recognize israel, I see.

Like the arab street even though Israel recognized them. go figure.

Perhaps when sharon passes away, you and whoever doesnt recognize israel and thinks sharon was a terrorist can have a big celebration, a joint arafat-sharon death party.

I recognize Israel and will mourn Sharon's death.

Like the arab street even though Israel recognized them. go figure.



I recognize Israel and will mourn Sharon's death.


But like you said, If someone doesnt recognize israel as a state, and calls sharon a terrorist, they are justified in being happy about his death?

The same justification you use to defend your glee at arafat's demise.

But like you said, If someone doesnt recognize israel as a state, and calls sharon a terrorist, they are justified in being happy about his death?

Problem is, they are recognized by the UN. The Palestinian Authority is not a state at all in accordance with International Law.

Problem is, they are recognized by the UN. The Palestinian Authority is not a state at all in accordance with International Law.


So the determining factor is international legal recognition?

By your standard, people are free to dance in the streets when a leader of a group seeking statehood dies, but ought only to mourn for a dictator of a state that already has legal standing.

Fantastic corneliu.

So the determining factor is international legal recognition?

I go by the international standards of what constitutes a state. Israel fits the bill but the P.A. doesn't.

By your standard, people are free to dance in the streets when a leader of a group seeking statehood dies, but ought only to mourn for a dictator of a state that already has legal standing.

If he was serious about statehood then he should've rung in the terrorists. He didn't do that and had no intentions of doing it either.

I go by the international standards of what constitutes a state. Israel fits the bill but the P.A. doesn't.



If he was serious about statehood then he should've rung in the terrorists. He didn't do that and had no intentions of doing it either.


So your standard is that a person should never celebrate the death of a head of (U.N. recognized) state, or a person who is not a head of state but who, in the opinion of the prospective celebrant, is 'serious about statehood.'

Going to write contracts for a living, coreliu?

I just hope Pinochet and Hussein are okay...:(

I just hope Pinochet and Hussein are okay...:(

Pinochet will probably die soon.

Hussein? odds are he's going to get the death penalty.

Pinochet will probably die soon.

Hussein? odds are he's going to get the death penalty.
Yeah, wouldn't it be terrible if people were hoping, nay, praying for them to be dead soon?
Just because they disagreed with the ways they conducted themselves in office?

I suggest you go back and check on those bombings Ke-en-gir. You might be surprised that those attacks are on locations that attacks were launched against Israel after they pulled out. It is what we call self-defense.

If you bothered to actually follow the press, which apparently you dont, you will see more progress being made or trying to be made because of what Sharon did.

Don't let your prejudices get in the way of the truth.

I cannot see any progress except the further building of the fence and Jewish settlements in the West Bank. The withdrawal from Gaza just seems too much like a divertion. It has always looked to me that Sharon just let go Gaza so he could get all of the West Bank. The world has not watched what was going on there because of Gaza.
And as for the "self-defense": it is not the Palestinians who occupy a land that does not belong to them. It's the same old story about why Israel exists in the first place. I cannot look past the last 100 years and just say let's go on with the current status and forget what the Jewish demand for a state and the West's bad conscience have done to the Arabs. I cannot look past the lives and families that Israel has destroyed and excused with what had happened to the Jews in Europe. Through his personal history Ariel Sharon is the very symbol of the intrusion and the strive to make this injustice last.
I would have believed Sharon if he had withdrawn from the West Bank (http://domino.un.org/maps/m3070r17.gif) (in the borders of 1966) entirely. But we all know that this is not what he had planned for the West Bank (http://www.seamzone.mod.gov.il/Pages/ENG/images/map_eng.jpg), don't we (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2003/08/03/wmid03big.gif).

Yeah, wouldn't it be terrible if people were hoping, nay, praying for them to be dead soon?
Just because they disagreed with the ways they conducted themselves in office?[/QUOTE]


I'll be praying for both of their families but I won't be dancing on anyone's grave.

Its a shame. The PM who is striving to find peace in the middle east and to have this happen :(war is Peace.
Hate is Love.
etc.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

As if you didn't do the same with Arafat.Sharon.. Burn in Hell..
You War Criminal.

I did NOT cheer when Arafat died. It is immoral to celebrate the death of another human being. Anyone who DOES is a sicko. That goes for both Arabs who may celebrate Sharon's death, and Israelis who celebrated Arafat's death.

Mind you, in EXTREME cases, people who suffered at the hands of a person may have a right to celebrate. Jews may have had the right to celebrate Hitler's suicide, and I will not deny the Iraqis their pleasure when Saddam is executed, nor New Yorkers when Bin Laden is executed/found dead.

I pray that Sharon recovers. His work is not yet done. He can't go now! After he completes peace with Palestine, or he sets up circumstances that enable his successors to do so, then he can rest in peace, his job done.

As for which Israeli would I bring back, I would have a hard time deciding between Golda Meir and David Ben-Gurion. Maybe bring both back, and create the greatest Israeli government in history? One as president, the other as PM.

It's very sad that every time an Israeli statesman puts peace in his (or her) agenda, something strucks them.

I think he is a gonner

I did NOT cheer when Arafat died. It is immoral to celebrate the death of another human being. Anyone who DOES is a sicko. That goes for both Arabs who may celebrate Sharon's death, and Israelis who celebrated Arafat's death.

Mind you, in EXTREME cases, people who suffered at the hands of a person may have a right to celebrate. Jews may have had the right to celebrate Hitler's suicide, and I will not deny the Iraqis their pleasure when Saddam is executed, nor New Yorkers when Bin Laden is executed/found dead.

I pray that Sharon recovers. His work is not yet done. He can't go now! After he completes peace with Palestine, or he sets up circumstances that enable his successors to do so, then he can rest in peace, his job done.

As for which Israeli would I bring back, I would have a hard time deciding between Golda Meir and David Ben-Gurion. Maybe bring both back, and create the greatest Israeli government in history? One as president, the other as PM.

Complete peace with Palestine? Under whose conditions? And what about letting all Arabs/Palestinians repatriate to where their respective families lived, let's say, 90 years ago? What about compensations?

Isn't it disgusting how some people can't even wait until a person dies before dancing on their grave?

And yes, OceanDrive and Ki-en-gir, I AM talking about you.

Latest BBC News

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4583160.stm

Latest BBC News

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4583160.stm
"Critical, but stable"...sounds like good news. But I'll believe it if he gets back.

Even if he survives, he might not be able to speak, or walk or something. I think his political career might be over...

Womble, do you think the Centrist Party has a chance without Sharon? And where would the voters go - Likud or Labour?

Isn't it disgusting how some people can't even wait until a person dies before dancing on their grave?


Some extreme Israelis, including members of Israel's government, did the same over a far longer period of time before Yassir Arafat died.

If he keeps getting strokes, and doesn't win the elections, I fear for what will happen with Palestine. If Likud wins, I bet something like, 'Umm....errr...we left our...uh...backpacks in Gaza. Yeah. So we're just going to go back there, mmmmkay?" is gonna go down...

Isn't it disgusting how some people can't even wait until a person dies before dancing on their grave?
And yes, OceanDrive and Ki-en-gir, I am talking about you.
I am not dancing on anyone's grave. My fear is that after Ariel Sharon (now that it is clear that he will not return into politics) the situation will get even worse. I mean even worse than it already is for Palestinians indside as well as outside the occupied territories.

I am not dancing on anyone's grave. My fear is that after Ariel Sharon (now that it is clear that he will not return into politics) the situation will get even worse. I mean even worse than it already is for Palestinians indside as well as outside the occupied territories.

We can only hope and pray that it doesn't.

Hoping and praying (as if that had ever helped) does not change anything.

Hoping and praying (as if that had ever helped) does not change anything.

It has helped me out on more than one occassion.

Artery blew I'm guessing for his would be upcomnig surgery. He's not going to be fully recovering from this seeing how he just had suffered the worst kind of CVA there is...

Artery blew I'm guessing for his would be upcomnig surgery. He's not going to be fully recovering from this seeing how he just had suffered the worst kind of CVA there is...

Miracles do happen.

Sharon's sedation apparently is going to last another 72 hours.

"Critical, but stable"...sounds like good news. But I'll believe it if he gets back.

Even if he survives, he might not be able to speak, or walk or something. I think his political career might be over...

Womble, do you think the Centrist Party has a chance without Sharon? And where would the voters go - Likud or Labour?

I will say that it is nearly impossible for him to come back. Even if he recovers, I can't see the voters taking the risk he will die on them. But, the odds are he will never recover from this. He had a stroke about as bad as they come.

The centrist party will have some chance. Shimon Peres is a very respected man in Israel. He was the man who took over as Prime Minister right after Rabin was assassinated. I believe he may have had an earlier term as PM too. I'm not 100% sure on that.

The upcoming elections will be interesting to say the least. Likdud might pick up more votes than originally thought, but then again, the new Kadima party might pick up votes from people who want to continue in Sharon's path.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4585562.stm

Womble, do you think the Centrist Party has a chance without Sharon?
Depends how much time they get, but they sure as hell won't be getting their 40 mandates. If the elections are delayed, the Kadima party will disintegrate for sure, if the elections will follow quickly, I'd say they will retain about half the votes.


And where would the voters go - Likud or Labour?
Both, but mostly Likud. The main bulk of people who were going to vote for Kadima come from the secular center-right, the people who normally voted Likud or Shinui.

Some extreme Israelis, including members of Israel's government, did the same over a far longer period of time before Yassir Arafat died.
That's because Yasser Arafat's wife and cronies turned his death into such a farce that it was indeed plain funny.

"Yasser Arafat died last night. And this time it looks pretty permanent. How many times did he die this week? Like five? Six? He was turning into Kenny on 'South Park.'" —Jay Leno at the time.

Pat Robertson believes in the Jewish godhead (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/05/robertson.sharon/index.html)
It is things like this that give the US the low esteem they have around the globe. :rolleyes:

Pat Robertson believes in the Jewish godhead (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/05/robertson.sharon/index.html)
It is things like this that give the US the low esteem they have around the globe. :rolleyes:

You do know that no one listens to Pat Robertson right?

Apparently he has an audience.

Apparently he has an audience.

And if we continue to give him press time, he'll never go away.

Pat Robertson believes in the Jewish godhead (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/05/robertson.sharon/index.html)
It is things like this that give the US the low esteem they have around the globe. :rolleyes:
It is foreigners thinking that Pat Robertson speaks for America that give Americans such a low esteem of Europe and Canada.

My tentative guess is that this will not change things much.

Kadima will win the next election, and try to form a coalition with Labor or Likud, depending on who becomes leader and how well Netanyahu salvages his formerly desperate position.

I care nothing for the man, but because he is, technically, a human being, I wish him a speedy and full recovery, coupled with a swift removal to the Hague for trial.

Depends how much time they get, but they sure as hell won't be getting their 40 mandates. If the elections are delayed, the Kadima party will disintegrate for sure, if the elections will follow quickly, I'd say they will retain about half the votes.

Kadima will largely remain intact. The most recent poll I saw indicated so, and the position adopted, based on the ideology behind the disengagement plan, is a very popular one. The Kadima voters will not go to Netanyahu - he has built his party in opposition to the disengagement plan - nor will they go to Peretz, because, as you point out, they tend towards the center-right.

Shimon Peres will probably become the leader of Kadima. he was the other big name besides Sharon in the party. Peres is VERY well known and respected. He is a Nobel Peace Prize winner (he was deserving of the award unlike Arafat) and has served terms as Prime Minister and Foreign Minister. Everyone on both sides should hope for Peres.

Terrorism was at an all time low during his time as PM. Israel needs him, besides, I guarantee Iran will never get nukes if he is in power.
If they pull of the stunt they did to Iraq in the 80s again.

I hope he recovers at least his full brain capacity. HE was one of the best prime ministers and Netanyahu is a bit extreme to me...although that is changing.

Apparently he has an audience.

Yes. The 700 club. It's called that because that's how many wackos actually take him seriously. 671 of them are safely in custody. :)

If they pull of the stunt they did to Iraq in the 80s again.

I hope he recovers at least his full brain capacity. HE was one of the best prime ministers and Netanyahu is a bit extreme to me...although that is changing.
If Netanyahu is the leader of Israel, there will be another Osiraq type strike. I hope Sharon will recover 100%, but realistically it won't happen. With the type of stroke he had, he will be lucky to be alive in a month. If he survives he probably will be paralyzed and unable to speak. I've had family members who had the same stroke. Sharon is sadly done.