NationStates Jolt Archive


More on Sweden: Employment / Alcoholism

Greenham
04-01-2006, 14:47
Employment Nightmare

The differences between the United States and Sweden may be best illustrated by the employment picture.

Even in the current "jobless recovery," 70% of US jobs are generated from small and medium-sized businesses. The American dream of owning your business and expanding remains alive and well.

The US economy is dependent on small businesses to create private-sector jobs that contribute money to government through taxes rather than take money from government as public-sector jobs do.

Like I stated in my earlier post in Sweden, 75% of small businesses have no employees. Moreover, Swedish employers are faced with several key long-term liabilities, which explains anemic job-creation figures.

These problems include an employment system that makes it very difficult, if not impossible, to terminate employees or lay them off. An employer must obtain government permission in almost all cases to fire or lay off a worker because of the power of the Swedish Union Association to protect all workers.

It can take months or years for granted layoffs to take effect. In the interim, the worker remains on the payroll, even if he is in jail, and is due termination pay of a year or more if eventually laid off.

Ironically, exceptions are made for big companies, such as phone-maker Ericsson, but small companies are stuck with the full package of employer restraints.

The nation's wealthiest individuals are sometimes given personal-tax breaks by the Swedish Parliament.

Alcoholic Disability

The state not only encourages disability for alcoholics but makes it easier than working for a living. In fact, there is almost no financial advantage to working a low-wage job in Sweden compared with collecting welfare or disability benefits. The state pays people to stay home and remain drunk. Treatment is optional. Doctor visits are often symbolic.

People can and do remain on "disability" for their illness indefinitely. The program is intended to provide the registered alcoholic with enough money to pay for basic needs and enough spending money to cover the drinking habit.

The official number of alcoholics is clouded by the fact that people can be "retired early" for alcoholism and not be registered as an alcoholic but as an early retiree.

This works well for people older than 50; younger people are listed and given "disability" status. Laws that make it difficult to fire employees allow firms to place workers on "disability" if their performance is below expectations.

In effect, this means the nation's economic statistics are rigged, because the jobless rate does not count such people.

There are 470,000 people collecting permanent pre-retirement pensions, of which 28% qualify because they are alcoholics or are too "stressed out" to work. This is in a nation of 9 million people, half of whom are in the work force.

Drugs are still technically illegal in Sweden, though one can obtain a disability for drug addiction. However, doing so requires one to undergo a lax rehabilitation with little financial incentive to return to the work force.

Hard liquor must be purchased from a state-run monopoly, whose chief executive officer is Anita Steen, the wife of Swedish Prime Minister Goran Persson.

Because the tax on hard liquor is 87% of the retail cost, registered alcoholics who use their welfare funds to purchase booze are in effect largely reimbursing the government with their purchases.

Because of the competition from neighboring Denmark and Finland with lower liquor prices, pressure may soon be applied to make it more difficult to receive an alcohol pension.

Yet, because requiring more medical treatment will also cost enormous amounts of money, many argue it is simply cheaper to keep someone continually on alcohol rather than pay for an expensive treatment session numerous times.

These days, it remains possible for someone younger than 30 to become a registered alcoholic for many years, if not his or her entire life. That person can conveniently be seen as "disabled" and no longer of concern for employers, labor economists or unions.

Although the country has an official unemployment rate of 6%, 12% of the work force is on disability. Another 4% is paid by the government for jobs that require no work.

In effect, this creates a society in which 22% of the potential work force is not productive.

Answers?

An alternative solution is immigration, but this would deluge the country with a flurry of people unfamiliar with the culture, language and climate of Sweden. In a country that had nearly no immigrants 40 years ago, about 1 in 8 is an immigrant.

Sweden's fertility rate --- the number of births per woman --- is 1.5 and has been below the replacement level of 2.1 for 30 years.

The Swedish government has attempted numerous policies to encourage fertility. Since 1949, Stockholm has directly subsidized women with children by providing direct monthly child support.

Child support paid by the state directly to women has shown a small, long-term increase in fertility, but not enough.
Sdaeriji
04-01-2006, 14:53
Is this everyone's favorite IP banned Fass-hater?
Pure Metal
04-01-2006, 14:55
hmm yes sweden sucks big time. and america is a fucking rose-garden.
Zero Six Three
04-01-2006, 14:55
Is this everyone's favorite IP banned Fass-hater?
It certainly don't like sweden.
Greenham
04-01-2006, 14:58
Is this everyone's favorite IP banned Fass-hater?


No, and more importantly I have no idea who or what that is. I've noticed there are several socialism supporters on NationStates. All I'm trying to do is show how Sweden's socialist model is currently failing without huge reforms to the system.
Greenham
04-01-2006, 15:01
It certainly don't like sweden.

I'm certainly not anti-Sweden. Coming from a family that is 1/3 Swede I have strong roots there. I'm just anti-socialism.
Anarchic Conceptions
04-01-2006, 15:02
No, and more importantly I have no idea who or what that is. I've noticed there are several socialism supporters on NationStates. All I'm trying to do is show how Sweden's socialist model is currently failing without huge reforms to the system.

Because as any fool knows, social democracy is the only form of socialism.
Heavenly Sex
04-01-2006, 15:05
No, and more importantly I have no idea who or what that is. I've noticed there are several socialism supporters on NationStates. All I'm trying to do is show how Sweden's socialist model is currently failing without huge reforms to the system.
Your post really reeks of ignorance and hate... the only thing that is failing here is your mind :rolleyes:
Zero Six Three
04-01-2006, 15:06
No, and more importantly I have no idea who or what that is. I've noticed there are several socialism supporters on NationStates. All I'm trying to do is show how Sweden's socialist model is currently failing without huge reforms to the system.
Do you have any sources? More importantly, what is your point? Do you have any solutions? Would you care to point out a system that is working?
Kanabia
04-01-2006, 15:06
Because as any fool knows, social democracy is the only form of socialism.

We already tried explaining that in the other thread, but he wouldn't listen.
Anarchic Conceptions
04-01-2006, 15:09
We already tried explaining that in the other thread, but he wouldn't listen.

Oh, there was another thread...

meh


sorry.
Greenham
04-01-2006, 15:12
Your post really reeks of ignorance and hate... the only thing that is failing here is your mind :rolleyes:

Sorry to disappoint you but these are all facts. Matter of fact if you can disprove anything I posted here I'll make an immediate correction as well as an apology to anyone I may have offended. But I assure you it's all true and up to date as of last year.
Revasser
04-01-2006, 15:14
No, and more importantly I have no idea who or what that is. I've noticed there are several socialism supporters on NationStates. All I'm trying to do is show how Sweden's socialist model is currently failing without huge reforms to the system.

Ohh, I see. You've come to convert the NS socialist heathens to whatever particular political and economic doctrine you subscribe to? What are we talking here? Libertarianism? US-Style Capitalism? Fascism? More importantly, why do think making a few half-assed attempts at showing that one somewhat socialist-influenced capitalist state apparently has a few generic problems is going to make any of the socialists here give a flying foozle?
Zero Six Three
04-01-2006, 15:17
Ohh, I see. You've come to convert the NS socialist heathens to whatever particularly political and economic doctrine you subscribe to? What are we talking here? Libertarianism? US-Style Capitalism? Fascism? More importantly, why do think making a few half-assed attempts at showing that one somewhat socialist-influenced capitalist state apparently has a few generic problems is going to make any of the socialists here give a flying foozle?
Especially when us poor socialists have so few flying foozles to give out!
Jokeropia
04-01-2006, 15:20
Wow, talk about massively exaggerating the problems without mentioning squat about the benefits, like for example a significantly lower amount of people living below subsistence level.

I'd recommend you to be more critical of your sources, since you seem to have bought into a lot of right-wing propaganda. Try to limit yourself to official organizations like the Central Bureau of Statistics (http://www.scb.se).
Revasser
04-01-2006, 15:23
Especially when us poor socialists have so few flying foozles to give out!

And the few we do have are all bright, fire engine red. Somehow I don't think our right-wing friend here would want any of them.
Helioterra
04-01-2006, 15:34
Answers?

An alternative solution is immigration, but this would deluge the country with a flurry of people unfamiliar with the culture, language and climate of Sweden. In a country that had nearly no immigrants 40 years ago, about 1 in 8 is an immigrant.
Did you know that by far most of the immigrants come from -tadaa- Finland! Not unfamiliar with the culture, language or even the climate.

Anyway all western European countries are going to have work force problems. But it's not like if one retires the company is going to employ another one straight away. There are a lot of jobs which are going to disappear when the person retires. E.g. small tv production companies don't need a camera man and an editor as one person can easily do both. The biggest problem is that there isn't enough money to cover up the costs of such a big bunch of pensioners. People live much longer than before. Many live 30 years after retirement. Anyway countries know this and the governments are preparing for it.
Compuq
04-01-2006, 15:36
The 'Central Bureau of Statistics' sounds like something right out of 1984.
Kanabia
04-01-2006, 15:45
The 'Central Bureau of Statistics' sounds like something right out of 1984.

Yes, they should have called it something more far more practical like the "Swedish ministry of socio-economic numerical analysis and record-keeping (central office)"
Borgoa
04-01-2006, 15:49
The 'Central Bureau of Statistics' sounds like something right out of 1984.
What do you suggest it be called? It describes what it is.

I note that the US government has a similar issue with naming problems if one thinks along this line... except they seem to have a good few more statistical agencies than Sweden, some are listed on this page: http://www.fedstats.gov/agencies/
Teh_pantless_hero
04-01-2006, 15:59
Wait, wait, wait.

The Swedish pay people to be drunk, but tax alcohol to all hell thus making back most of the money they spent on the drunks.

So theoretically, the only thing they need to do in Sweden is throw up a few more alcohol factories to cover anyone who needs a job because it sounds like these people are fucking geniuses.
Compuq
04-01-2006, 16:01
I though the Central Bureau of Statistics was American not Swedish. I am not attacking the US or Sweden though.

Central Bureau of Statistics -> Central Bureau of Facts and its not a stretch to say Central Bureau of the Truth. lol

Anyway, back to the subject of Sweden. :D
Borgoa
04-01-2006, 16:13
Just out of interest, if our "socialist" society is so disfunctional, why is it that the child-poverty rate in Sweden is 4,2%. (In USA it is 21,9%, the highest in the OECD countries according to their 2004 statistics).
Man in Black
04-01-2006, 16:20
Is this everyone's favorite IP banned Fass-hater?
Sorry to steal the thread here, but what the heck is an "IP banned Fass-hater?"
Zero Six Three
04-01-2006, 16:25
Sorry to steal the thread here, but what the heck is an "IP banned Fass-hater?"
Someone who's absolute hatred of Fass has resulted in his IP being banned rendering him unable to post on this forum from the computer which was Ip banned.
Man in Black
04-01-2006, 16:28
Someone who's absolute hatred of Fass has resulted in his IP being banned rendering him unable to post on this forum from the computer which was Ip banned.
Were they just being rude, or was there actual threats involved?
And is this Fass person someone who deserved it?



Edit, OH, that Fass. They do seem kinda nerve grindy, if ya catch me. :D
Zero Six Three
04-01-2006, 16:37
Were they just being rude, or was there actual threats involved?
And is this Fass person someone who deserved it?



Edit, OH, that Fass. They do seem kinda nerve grindy, if ya catch me. :D
I don't know. I wasn't there.

I feel it is my duty to inform you that we stole this thread first for the purpose of discussing the colour of flying foozles. Please hand it back and refrain from future foozle related thefts. Thank you.
Sdaeriji
04-01-2006, 16:37
Were they just being rude, or was there actual threats involved?
And is this Fass person someone who deserved it?



Edit, OH, that Fass. They do seem kinda nerve grindy, if ya catch me. :D

Aye. He can be irritating, but the levels to which the person in question went was way beyond a normal, justifiable reaction to "irritating".
Blue Rocket
04-01-2006, 16:41
Ohh, I see. You've come to convert the NS socialist heathens to whatever particular political and economic doctrine you subscribe to? What are we talking here? Libertarianism? US-Style Capitalism? Fascism? More importantly, why do think making a few half-assed attempts at showing that one somewhat socialist-influenced capitalist state apparently has a few generic problems is going to make any of the socialists here give a flying foozle?

And what makes you socialists think that you can try to change our capitalist beliefs? If this thread were another Bush-bash, criticizing America rather than Sweden, you'd be all over it.
Man in Black
04-01-2006, 16:42
Aye. He can be irritating, but the levels to which the person in question went was way beyond a normal, justifiable reaction to "irritating".
OK, my last thread theft post, I promise. What exactly did he do? Just to make sure I don't do the same thing. Like I said, Fass, along with a few others, tend to grind me quite often. Just don't want an IP ban,(forever, right?) is all.


Again, my last theft, promise.
Zero Six Three
04-01-2006, 16:44
And what makes you socialists think that you can try to change our capitalist beliefs? If this thread were another Bush-bash, criticizing America rather than Sweden, you'd be all over it.
The same thing that makes you capitalists think you can change ours. Our impressive egos and sense of intellectual and moral superioty.
Sdaeriji
04-01-2006, 16:46
OK, my last thread theft post, I promise. What exactly did he do? Just to make sure I don't do the same thing. Like I said, Fass, along with a few others, tend to grind me quite often. Just don't want an IP ban,(forever, right?) is all.


Again, my last theft, promise.

Well, he pretty much flamed Fass every time they posted in the same thread, then, when he was given a forum ban for continued flaming, he posted with a puppet, which got him deleted. Then, after that was deleted, he created more puppets to post through his still-continuing forum ban. And after they were all deleted and he was given an IP ban, he posted through that, which I suppose probably earned him a DOS. All the time, the posts he was making were saying what assholes the mods were for banning him, so on and so forth. Basically, keep yourself from having a complete and total meltdown and you should be fine.
Revasser
04-01-2006, 17:42
And what makes you socialists think that you can try to change our capitalist beliefs? If this thread were another Bush-bash, criticizing America rather than Sweden, you'd be all over it.

Who's trying to change your beliefs? I'm quite happy in my own smug sense of superiority without worrying about other people's boring political ideas, thank you.

Also, you'll find that I don't often indulge in real Bush-bashing. Sure, I'm not a fan, but I leave the Bush-bashing to those who actually have to live with him as their president. Although, I admit, I do enjoy a good Bush-bash when he comes to my country. But if he comes here, frankly, he's asking for it.
Bodies Without Organs
04-01-2006, 18:37
Sweden's fertility rate --- the number of births per woman --- is 1.5 and has been below the replacement level of 2.1 for 30 years.

And the point of this is what?
Greenham
04-01-2006, 18:41
And the point of this is what?


The point being that Sweden will have a major economic problem down the road as the already large pool of pensioners will have even fewer workers to support them.
DrunkenDove
04-01-2006, 18:43
And the point of this is what?

Lower number of young people supporting larger numbers of pensioners. Of course, there's ways and means around that. It also means that economic growth will have a greater effect.
Bodies Without Organs
04-01-2006, 18:44
The point being that Sweden will have a major economic problem down the road as the already large pool of pensioners will have even fewer workers to support them.

And you lay the blame of this at the feet of the thing you called 'socialism' in the last thread?
Pure Metal
04-01-2006, 18:45
The point being that Sweden will have a major economic problem down the road as the already large pool of pensioners will have even fewer workers to support them.
1. the low birth rate is hardly caused by socialism
2. this problem is not endemic to socialised policies
3. this would be an economic problem whether "socialist" or not
and 4. the economy will adapt
Zero Six Three
04-01-2006, 18:46
And the point of this is what?
Capitalism increases fertilty and virility. It makes the women prettier and the men well-endowed. Socialism leads to lesbianism and male skin care products.
Deep Kimchi
04-01-2006, 18:49
I think that some people fail to recognize that there are varying degrees of "socialism" - and that even some policies of the US could be considered "socialist" in intention or design.

One can hardly say that some degree of socialism is a bad thing - I believe that most governments realize that in any society you need some socialist policies in order to prevent gross inequities that would cause major sections of the population to become unhappy with the government.

I don't usually use economics as a means of gauging the success of a form of government. I look at how long it's been in operation, and over that time, how happy people have been with the system, and how flexible it is without being overthrown.

On that basis, I think Sweden is doing just fine - it's working for them - yes, there will always be future risks, and current problems - but their system seems to be quite adaptable and the people of Sweden like it.