NationStates Jolt Archive

This is a short paper I wrote detailing what I believe to be wrong with the whole relationship idea in high schools today. Now, there are things in this paper that have the potential to be offensive to certain types of people, so if I offend you I am sorry, but this is a statement of scientific opinion. Also, if you have any CONSTRUCTIVE criticism reguarding it I would gladly recieve it. Please enjoy.

Why Nice Guys Finish Last
By: Robonic

As I have gone through my early life I have found there to be different social structures among today high school systems. When I started high school I was under the foolish assumption that any girl was “fair game” but soon came to the realization that this wasn’t true. I have found that girls have become very vain, and all they care about anymore in a relationship is six packs, muscles, and good sex. They have forgotten all too well that that’s not all to a guy. So I write this paper not as a sympathy plea, but so that girls may realize that what they have banked their standards in, are shallow and short lived at best.

Section 1: The Groups we live by
In high schools across America there is an overriding hierarchical system of power based on the fluid concept of “popularity”. There are usually four or five levels of this system give or take a few depending on your geographic location, but the basic levels are The common student, The science/ game nerds, the Punk Rockers and Goths, The band nerds, and the most elite are The Jocks. These are the groups from the biggest (most common) to the smallest (most elite). Like any hierarchical system, power and respect trickle down through the system, spearheaded by the alpha male. In this system there is also the mind set of “to the winner goes the spoils” and in such, the alpha male, or jock gets the prime female which usually consists of cheerleaders or other athletic counterparts equal to that of the male jock. Unlike other systems however, in which the other females go to the next highest level after the alpha male has chosen a mate (please excuse the terminology), all the high school girls try to go for the jocks whether he/ they are taken or not. This is where the common high school system goes terribly wrong. If you are not part of the elitist group (jocks) then you are discarded as not worth their “time”. This has been common place and understanding in high schools across America. This is what leads us into our next section of discussion.

Section 2: An Abuse of Power
Through the years this system has become more apparent in the high school systems, and I, not being in the jock “group”, am not the only one who has noticed this trend of power. The jocks of America, have also noticed this trend throughout the years. They have noticed it so much in fact, it has lead to an abuse of power never seen anywhere else in the world, this is not an understatement, but because we are “kids” the modern government fails to recognize this set governmental system, and thus it is not considered an “abuse of power” because there was never a power base present, according to modern day politicians. You may ask “what abuse is he talking about?” I am talking about the modern jock and there apathetic view of the rest of the high school system. If you are a jock you are considered the alpha and omega of the school system. The jock is known as the end all boyfriend for any girl, if they can get a jock to “go out with them” then they are automatically boosted to the top of the hierarchical pyramid we talked about earlier, and this is the main reason the jock is held as the “hottie” in schools today. This is also the main reason that the jock as the attitude of absolute disregard for anyone else. Usually the jock’s attitude is summed up in one word among the other people in high school, “jackass”. I am not sure if jocks know this is the reputation they have around the schools, or if they just don’t care, either way, this is the main reasons a girl’s relationship with a jock never lasts. This problem isn’t all inside the school though; there is another, more convincing culprit, more influential than anything else in the known world. Thy name is Hollywood.

Section 3: Hollywood’s Facade
Hollywood has given the foolish idea that a relationship with a jock is perfect, or for that fact, there is such a thing as a “perfect” relationship. I am sorry to tell all those girls that are out there waiting for that one certain “perfect” guy, there’s no such thing as a perfect relationship. That’s the main reason Hollywood is behind a screen, because they know what they show is not real, and they know what they say is never and could never happen in the real world. This isn’t the only thing Hollywood has shown us though; they are also the main culprit in giving the jock his abusive power base. In movies Hollywood likes to show the jock in a almost “superhero” way instead of showing the jock in his chauvinist, apathetic, sexist way that it exists in high schools. This, more than anything, is the thing that disillusions high school girls in believing the jock is the “perfect” guy. In my opinion, Hollywood should be called into account for everything they have done to America’s youth. All over TV I see “what’s happened to America’s youth?” I’ll tell them what has happened, Hollywood happened. With Hollywood’s “superhero” portrait of modern day jocks, no wonder girl’s are desperate enough to give oral sex just for a boyfriend. We’re not any more immoral or any worse than generations before us, Hollywood is. In the same way Hollywood has reinforced the idea that the jock is the “alpha male” in high schools. So right here, I am calling out Hollywood for all they have done to today’s youth, and if your brave enough maybe you can take responsibility in sending America down the tube.

Section 4: The Jock Strikes Back
With Hollywood’s blatant reinforcement of the Jock’s “alpha male” attitude the jock now feels like he is above everyone else, and that he can get anything he wants, and he knows that so many girls want him he can do anything he wants and they will always come crawling back. So this is the number one reason why girl’s can’t expect a real relationship with the stereotypical jock, although I admit there are a very few exceptions to the rule. The jock now knows he can get any girl he wants, and that’s why I laugh when a girl walks around saying “Oh my gosh, he’s the perfect guy, he’s so hot.” If he is a regular jock, he’ll leave her in a couple months if she lucky. A jock can’t stick with one girl, because he knows that he can have anyone he wants so in his mind she’ll just get old, and he’ll throw her in the trash like last year’s fashions. Like I said earlier though, Hollywood has made the jock so popular that she’ll just crawl back like a wounded dog, and they’ll just go through the same cycle over and over. What’s so sad though, is that girls are so blinded by the “perfect guy” or should I say the “perfect jock” that they never notice the other guys that try so hard to impress them with genuine feelings of love. Instead they would rather have the fake relationship with the jock, instead of the true, mutual relationship with the less popular guy. This happens so much sometimes I want to scream out, “Don’t you see there are other guys that have genuine feelings for you!? Are you going to throw that all away for that star football player? Are you willing to sacrifice a meaningful relationship for maybe a night of sex?” Unfortunately, most girls wouldn’t listen they don’t want to confront the truth, they want to live in their fantasies about marrying that star quarterback, or that basketball player. When in truth, most of the relationships with jocks consist of one night stands, followed by hurt feelings and in some cases, a family you never intended on having. Now, I’m not saying that all you’d ever get with jocks are nights of sex, but I am saying is that if you notice the less popular person ninety nine point nine percent of the time he won’t want sex, all he’ll want his someone to talk to someone who’d be closer than a friend, I know from personal experience.

Section 5: Those Girls That Don’t Want to Understand
Now, in some cases there are girls who believe that they are the one jock’s want, and no one else will do except a jock. These are usually the girls with low self esteem because they believe that if they had a jock for a boyfriend everyone would like them. Some are so extreme that if someone less than a jock asked them out, they’d laugh and say “you’re not worth my time”. Well, for those of you out there that think this I would like to bring something to your attention “your not worth my time.” Not the other way around. I have compassion for those girls that get “burned” by a jock and realize that they aren’t the only one’s out there, but for girls who sincerely believe only jock’s will bring them happiness, there’s only one thing I will say to them. You are extremely shallow and you are not worth anyone’s time, get a life. That might sound harsh, but if a girl is at the point of ignoring everyone else and worrying just about herself and her social standings, then I have no sympathy for her when she realizes jocks are just all about the same, in that they are uncompassionate, egotistical, hormone driven, jerks.

Section 6: Finale
In final, I want to make the point that I am not trying to call all jocks bad people, but as we know “one bad apple spoils the bunch”. I am also not trying to tell girls to ignore jocks completely; I know some jocks who are very nice people. All I am trying to do is to get girls to notice other people besides jocks, because most of the time those guys who aren’t jocks will want a meaningful, lasting relationship. So like I said in the beginning, this is not a paper asking for sympathy but rather for recognition that we are here too, and not to be so ignored when it comes to things such as relationships, dances, etc. Like one of my close friends once said “When will girls ever realize that we aren’t all jocks and that we can’t all be the perfect guy, and that some of us actually want a meaningful relationship?” I hope that this paper has shown that there are other guys out in the world who wish to love you sincerely and truly if you would only show them the respect and “time of day” they deserve.

Wtl

No wait a minute isnt it "nice guys come last" ;)

Want more info on why nice guys finish last?
www.laddertheory.com

The title is a minor detail =P

MOST (not all) women like bad boys who they think they can reform, but usually fail at doing.

Bah to it all.

"it has lead to an abuse of power never seen anywhere else in the world" could do with rephrasing imho... my first thought was 'wtf dude... holocaust... chairman mao... etc', so maybe "heard of" could replace "seen" in that sentence to take it away from the commonly used phrase (which i assumed)
hope that makes sense... tis late here

all i can say apart from that is going to school in the uk was a whole lot simpler - at least my school was. sure, we had different social groups and a loose hierarchy, but everyone socialised with everyone else at some level (quite a small school i guess). yay

As a nice guy who has dated around, and is now in a long-term relationship, let me give you a friendly piece of hopeful advice:

Nice guys finish last with 99% of girls. You guys out there who are, like me, geniunely nice... you don't want anything to do with those girls anyway. Granted, those often include the beauty-obsessed, vainglorious, daddy's girl snobs that always seem like the top of the scale... but they're not. Those girls (I've dated a few) will do nothing but make you miserable.

Truthfully, they're neither looking for nor worthy of a truly nice guy. Nice guys are a commodity not to be wasted on the self-absorbed. If you're a geniune nice guy, don't tear yourself up on those "ideal" girls... they're not really ideal at all. If you hold out for a nice girl (yes, guys, they do exist) it will seriously be worth it in the end.

Those "ideal" girls will either A.) end up barefoot and pregnant living in a trailer in the deep south, or B.) end up as an unhappy trophy wife to some wrinkly old foogey.

To you nice guys out there, I wish you patience and luck. The nice girl crowd is difficult to find, but entirely worth it.

hollywood is getting better at the whole popular jock thing. if anyone watches the OC, adam brody is the biggest geek in the whole school, but he still gets a girlfriend (rachel bilson).

As a nice guy who has dated around, and is now in a long-term relationship, let me give you a friendly piece of hopeful advice:

Nice guys finish last with 99% of girls. You guys out there who are, like me, geniunely nice... you don't want anything to do with those girls anyway. Granted, those often include the beauty-obsessed, vainglorious, daddy's girl snobs that always seem like the top of the scale... but they're not. Those girls (I've dated a few) will do nothing but make you miserable.

Truthfully, they're neither looking for nor worthy of a truly nice guy. Nice guys are a commodity not to be wasted on the self-absorbed. If you're a geniune nice guy, don't tear yourself up on those "ideal" girls... they're not really ideal at all. If you hold out for a nice girl (yes, guys, they do exist) it will seriously be worth it in the end.

Those girls will either A.) end up barefoot and pregnant living in a trailer in the deep south, or B.) end up as an unhappy trophy wife to some wrinkly old foogey.

To you nice guys out there, I wish you patience and luck. The nice girl crowd is difficult to find, but entirely worth it.

as a nice guy currently in a (potentially and hopefully) long-term relationship with a "nice girl", i give this post my hearty seal of approval :)

nice guy + self-obsessed jock-style girl (the type made out to be "ideal" by hollywood, advertising and magazines) = bad things
nice guy + nice girl = great things *nods* :fluffle:

jock guy + jock girl = well they deserve each other. ha.

[snip]

Took the words out of my mouth. Nice guys finish last... with the shallow, selfish girls. The intelligent, kind, compassionate girls will see you for what you are, and you will find happiness with one of them. Sounds corny, but I went through it myself.

snip

Robo, once you are in the real world HS popularity is about as useful as broken condom. No one cares what you did in HS, regardless of what it was. The only ones who will notice is other HS buddies if you ever run into them a few years down the road.

Wow, I'm not normal:D I only date guys with college, a good job and marriage in mind and trying to make the relationship work. I don't let myself go to bed with him right off either. But, I'm a nerd too:rolleyes:

Nice guys finish last because they allow themselves to. Those who perpetuate this idea are usually not "nice guys", just guys who are not confident enough to pursue what they want, and then make up theories to spare their ego.

Want more info on why nice guys finish last?
www.laddertheory.com
That's hilarious ... and all too true!

Eh, Daytime tele bologna. Far as I seen it's mostly based on race anyways, There's no jock/band geek/science nerd section, At least where I go, it's more like "big chaldean" "small chaldean" "black guy" "black girl" "white girls" (more specifically, your, Oh-my-god-chat-on-the-phone-he's-such-a-hottie-do-you-like-my-hair-I'm-too-fat-let's-put-on-so-much-makeup-we-look-like-14-year-old-hookers white girls)and "white preps" (guys and girls) In no paticular order, they're all have rather annoying and distinct personality traits common in their group. Everyone else is just...amorphus.

And as far as nice guys, such as myself I like to think, there are nice girls out there (very few, and I've yet to find an african-american one in the midwest), but I'm willing to admit that I'm "not confident enough to pursue what [I] want". I try though, maybe Valentine's Day...gifts...*mumbles on about stuff...*

Yup ladder theory pretty much not only explains why but it also explains most fo the posts made here.

but this is a statement of scientific opinion What the hell is a scientific opinion? An obective subjective statement????

And actually...you know who finishes last? People who whine about finishing last.

Nice guys finish last because they allow themselves to. Those who perpetuate this idea are usually not "nice guys", just guys who are not confident enough to pursue what they want, and then make up theories to spare their ego.
Quoted for truth.

And actually...you know who finishes last? People who whine about finishing last.

Nothing like a little adolescent misogyny to get you all riled up.

:mad: I hate Good Charlotte with a passion, but they hit the nail on the head with these lyrics:-

'Girls don't like boys, girls like cars and money'.

Most women are vapid, self indulgent gold diggers with no common sense when it comes to men. They all claim to want a nice guy, but its only when you act like a b*stard that they get interested and only stay interested when they see the bulge in your wallet. This sh*t makes me sick.

EDIT I don't include all women in the above statement, but the execption, rather then the rule is excluded. Those women not falling into the above bracket know who they are and should be proud of that fact.

EDIT 2: Please read the whole thread of posts of mine before you reply to this one.

Nothing like a little adolescent misogyny to get you all riled up.
The last thread I saw like this devolved into calling girls bitches, sluts, whores and cumbags. Hmmm. You can't get a girl, and you use names like these to refer to them. Could there be a connection? Is it possible?

Anyone else notice the irony in the notion that the author argues that women are interested only in six-pack abs, etc., but utterly neglects to talk about the immense pressure women are under and have been under for, oh, about five thousand years, to look a particular way?

:mad: I hate Good Charlotte with a passion, but they hit the nail on the head with these lyrics:-

'Girls don't like boys, girls like cars and money'.

Most women are vapid, self indulgent gold diggers with no common sense when it comes to men. They all claim to want a nice guy, but its only when you act like a b*stard that they get interested and only stay interested when they see the bulge in your wallet. This sh*t makes me sick.
Exhibit A. What kind of woman would want a man with an opinion like this?

The last thread I saw like this devolved into calling girls bitches, sluts, whores and cumbags. Hmmm. You can't get a girl, and you use names like these to refer to them. Could there be a connection? Is it possible?

Yeah, but this is a thread for "nice guys".

I would enter the rolling eyes smiley, but I hate smilies.

Yeah, but this is a thread for "nice guys".


Yes, and instead of being called whores and sluts, instead, 'most women are vapid', 'gold-digging' blah blah blah. Like women don't make their own fucking money these days.

Yeah, but this is a thread for "nice guys".

I would enter the rolling eyes smiley, but I hate smilies.
Aw, go ahead. If ever one was warranted, it's now. You know you want to.

EDIT I don't include all women in the above statement, but the execption, rather then the rule is excluded. Those women not falling into the above bracket know who they are and should be proud of that fact.
Nice try. You still use the word most. And your 'rule' is nothing but a bunch of sour grapes you are trying to pass off as truth.

Anyone else notice the irony in the notion that the author argues that women are interested only in six-pack abs, etc., but utterly neglects to talk about the immense pressure women are under and have been under for, oh, about five thousand years, to look a particular way?

It all boils down to the the "men are studs, women are whores" double standard. Mix that with a little teenage insecurity, and you get these absurd hypocrisies that women are superficial sluts.

It all boils down to the the "men are studs, women are whores" double standard. Mix that with a little teenage insecurity, and you get these absurd hypocrisies that women are superficial sluts.
I wish it were only teenagers who were putting these ideas out there--that would mean that as people aged, they grew out of it. Unfortunately, I see it all too often among people my own age and older, and I'm in my mid-thirties.

Aw, go ahead. If ever one was warranted, it's now. You know you want to.

:rolleyes:

I've lowered myself.

Exhibit A. What kind of woman would want a man with an opinion like this?

At least I'm honest about it. Plus this is based on years of experience and dealing with the whole 'lets be friends ok?' riff. Maybe I choose the wrong women, and I won't refer to any of them by names previously mentioned in this thread, but I won't have someone disrespect my opinions without cause or understanding

It all boils down to the the "men are studs, women are whores" double standard. Mix that with a little teenage insecurity, and you get these absurd hypocrisies that women are superficial sluts.
Statement after statement about 'most women are this' and 'most women are that'. I'm sorry...that's based on what? A few personal experiences and second hand reports, and suddenly you can speak for 52% of the world's population? Jesus flippin' Christ. Next it will be 'it's all women's fault for us men being (insert whatever negative character trait he wants to blame on someone)'. "We're assholes because nice guys finish last." Sure.

At least I'm honest about it. Plus this is based on years of experience and dealing with the whole 'lets be friends ok?' riff. Maybe I choose the wrong women, and I won't refer to any of them by names previously mentioned in this thread, but I won't have someone disrespect my opinions without cause or understanding
I understand your opinion, and I still disrespect it, because it's crap.

At least I'm honest about it. Plus this is based on years of experience and dealing with the whole 'lets be friends ok?' riff. Maybe I choose the wrong women, and I won't refer to any of them by names previously mentioned in this thread, but I won't have someone disrespect my opinions without cause or understanding
Really? Well I won't have someone disrespect an entire gender with anecdotal tripe passed off as truth. So you've had shitty luck with girls. Instead of trying to pretend that it's all their fault, perhaps you should take ownership of your own feelings and actions, and consider that you are in part to blame? Perhaps you seek out a shallow type...that doesn't mean they are in the majority. "Oh, I've had years of experience blah blah blah". Well so have the rest of us.

I understand your opinion, and I still disrespect it, because it's crap.
:fluffle:

I wish it were only teenagers who were putting these ideas out there--that would mean that as people aged, they grew out of it. Unfortunately, I see it all too often among people my own age and older, and I'm in my mid-thirties.

I guess insecurity and ignorance doesn't just belong to the youth. I think that the original poster is just dealing with some teenage awkwardness that he will eventually grow out of.

:rolleyes:

I've lowered myself.
It's okay. We're all driven to it at one point or another. We won't think any less of you. Even if you claim to be a 'nice guy'.

I'm nice, and my boyfriend is nice. *sticks tongue out at OP*

I wish it were only teenagers who were putting these ideas out there--that would mean that as people aged, they grew out of it. Unfortunately, I see it all too often among people my own age and older, and I'm in my mid-thirties.
Of course people don't all grow out of it. Else we wouldn't have husbands and boyfriends killing their wives/girlfriends in jealousy or rage, and thinking they deserved it.

Women have for years been oppressed in western society. Fact
Women have been held to impossible standards of 'physical beauty'. Fact
Women haven't earned as much as male counterparts in the workplace until the last two decades or so. Fact

Fair enough. But I ask you this. Why do women constantly ask for honesty and openness and as soon as a guy gives it to them, they bite his head off?

Why do men (not all men, see the stereotypical jock in the thread header) have to jump through hoops and fire to please a woman and get her respect?

I'd respect you for telling me to get lost faster then I will if you said 'let's be friends'

Truthfully, there has already been a post by a young lady on here who suggested that she will only date college age guys who are interested in a relationship. While I will not quote her precisely, because I'm not attacking her, or even suggesting that she is a golddigger, I think this is an excellent example of how many men perceive women. Unfortunately, because of culture and crappy daytime television, this stereotype has been blown way out of proportion.

I won't lie to you: I go to a upper-middle class private educational institution where girls supposedly go to earn their MRS (for those of you who aren't familar with the term, it means they go to college to bag a rich guy). I've had the pleasure (well... not *the* pleasure) of meeting many of these students, and I can say, I've only met a handful who actually seem interested in simply bagging a rich guy. Most of them are driven young women who seem to desire a good career which would afford independence... not that marrying a rich guy wouldn't be an added bonus. Of course, I would say that, personally, marrying a rich girl would be a bonus... I don't think it works one-way.

Anyway... things become a lot more complicated once you leave the confines of high school. Nice guys will move on... and all the jocks and cheerleaders will join Greek Organizations, constantly get drunk, and fail out (or barely scrape by). As a nice guy or girl, you can totally ignore their existence and focus on more important things.

On a closing note, though... don't buy into the stereotypes... there are just as many bad men out there as bad women... in all the same ways. They can have each other and ride to hell in a handbasket. Focus on the nice ones, and you'll have everything that matters.

I'm nice, and my boyfriend is nice. *sticks tongue out at OP*
No shit.

You hear more about the crappy relationships, because people in crappy relationships complain about their partner constantly. People in good relationships don't start threads about how great their partner is, and how great previous partners have been. Maybe we should...but that kind of sweetness gets cloying fast.

Really? Well I won't have someone disrespect an entire gender with anecdotal tripe passed off as truth. So you've had shitty luck with girls. Instead of trying to pretend that it's all their fault, perhaps you should take ownership of your own feelings and actions, and consider that you are in part to blame? Perhaps you seek out a shallow type...that doesn't mean they are in the majority. "Oh, I've had years of experience blah blah blah". Well so have the rest of us.


I did say that I might be choosing the wrong women, but don't let actually listening get in the way of your high horse

Fair enough. But I ask you this. Why do women constantly ask for honesty and openness and as soon as a guy gives it to them, they bite his head off? And here is where we stray completely from fact, and crash headlong into 'anecdotal tripe'.

And some more:
Why do men (not all men, see the stereotypical jock in the thread header) have to jump through hoops and fire to please a woman and get her respect?

I'd respect you for telling me to get lost faster then I will if you said 'let's be friends'
Get lost.

As a nice guy who has dated around, and is now in a long-term relationship, let me give you a friendly piece of hopeful advice:

Nice guys finish last with 99% of girls. You guys out there who are, like me, geniunely nice... you don't want anything to do with those girls anyway. Granted, those often include the beauty-obsessed, vainglorious, daddy's girl snobs that always seem like the top of the scale... but they're not. Those girls (I've dated a few) will do nothing but make you miserable.

Truthfully, they're neither looking for nor worthy of a truly nice guy. Nice guys are a commodity not to be wasted on the self-absorbed. If you're a geniune nice guy, don't tear yourself up on those "ideal" girls... they're not really ideal at all. If you hold out for a nice girl (yes, guys, they do exist) it will seriously be worth it in the end.

Those "ideal" girls will either A.) end up barefoot and pregnant living in a trailer in the deep south, or B.) end up as an unhappy trophy wife to some wrinkly old foogey.

To you nice guys out there, I wish you patience and luck. The nice girl crowd is difficult to find, but entirely worth it.


No, there aren't. All the women worth being with (and almost all of the women who aren't worth being with) already have someone.

It's okay. We're all driven to it at one point or another. We won't think any less of you. Even if you claim to be a 'nice guy'.

I'm apparently not a nice guy because I have gotten laid.

Because of this thread I am just a smiley-posting jerk.

I did say that I might be choosing the wrong women, but don't let actually listening get in the way of your high horse
Like the one you're on? Both of us on our high horses should be able to see eye to eye...but while you're blaming most women...and not recanting that statement, it ain't going to happen. Your small...yes SMALL experience with women in no way represents a majority. That's the sticking point here. If you want to talk about your experiences with women, feel free. But you have no right to generalise and extend these negative experiences to MOST women and not get called on it.

No, there aren't. All the women worth being with (and almost all of the women who aren't worth being with) already have someone.
I hear the same crap from the lips of good women, who whine that all the good men are taken. TRY HARDER. Or be happy single.

but don't let actually listening get in the way of your high horse

:rolleyes:

When it rains, it pours.

:rolleyes:

When it rains, it pours.
Next, I'll be highlighted as an example of one of those 'bad women'...because a good woman would listen, sympathise, agree that women are for the most part bitches, and go down on him.

I'd respect you for telling me to get lost faster then I will if you said 'let's be friends'This is an honest question: what is wrong with wanting to be friends with an ex, if its genuine? I had a good relationship with my boyfriend, and we care about each other alot - I wouldn't want to lose him as part of my life for anything. A few months ago, he moved away, and for various reasons we broke it off, and re-broke up when he moved back for various other reasons. But anyway, throughout that time, we were still talking, and still close. He was a good friend to me, even though emotions were tumultuous.

In this case, we got back together, because being friends just was not really good enough, but still, I feel that if someday we end up breaking up, I would want to keep him as a frined. He's important to my life, and I love him. What's so wrong about that?

Truthfully, there has already been a post by a young lady on here who suggested that she will only date college age guys who are interested in a relationship. While I will not quote her precisely, because I'm not attacking her, or even suggesting that she is a golddigger, I think this is an excellent example of how many men perceive women. Unfortunately, because of culture and crappy daytime television, this stereotype has been blown way out of proportion.

I won't lie to you: I go to a upper-middle class private educational institution where girls supposedly go to earn their MRS (for those of you who aren't familar with the term, it means they go to college to bag a rich guy). I've had the pleasure (well... not *the* pleasure) of meeting many of these students, and I can say, I've only met a handful who actually seem interested in simply bagging a rich guy. Most of them are driven young women who seem to desire a good career which would afford independence... not that marrying a rich guy wouldn't be an added bonus. Of course, I would say that, personally, marrying a rich girl would be a bonus... I don't think it works one-way.

Anyway... things become a lot more complicated once you leave the confines of high school. Nice guys will move on... and all the jocks and cheerleaders will join Greek Organizations, constantly get drunk, and fail out (or barely scrape by). As a nice guy or girl, you can totally ignore their existence and focus on more important things.

On a closing note, though... don't buy into the stereotypes... there are just as many bad men out there as bad women... in all the same ways. They can have each other and ride to hell in a handbasket. Focus on the nice ones, and you'll have everything that matters.

Yep and they kill the hopes of all the rest of us and give rise to these threads, and lead to me making an ass of myself. I'd like to apologise to all the women posting or reading this thread. My previous comments have been ill tempered and misjudged. Like many of you I'm sure, I get pretty riled about certain things and this hasn't been a good time for me relationship wise. I should never have vented that displeasure on this forum, or the female population at large. Again, my apologies. I've re-read my posts and they're all pretty much bullshit born of frustration and anger. If you don't accept my apology, I understand.

No, there aren't. All the women worth being with (and almost all of the women who aren't worth being with) already have someone.

Wow. Way to generalize.

I think this is exactly what some of the other authors meant by whiny individuals who can't do anything but wallow in their own misery about how they can't get a girl.

Here's a news flash for you, friend... if you don't think there's a girl out there for you, or you don't think you can get her, then there's not and you can't. Persistance... or at least the will to try... is totally key.

This is an honest question: what is wrong with wanting to be friends with an ex, if its genuine? I had a good relationship with my boyfriend, and we care about each other alot - I wouldn't want to lose him as part of my life for anything. A few months ago, he moved away, and for various reasons we broke it off, and re-broke up when he moved back for various other reasons. But anyway, throughout that time, we were still talking, and still close. He was a good friend to me, even though emotions were tumultuous.

In this case, we got back together, because being friends just was not really good enough, but still, I feel that if someday we end up breaking up, I would want to keep him as a frined. He's important to my life, and I love him. What's so wrong about that?
You haven't watched "When Harry Met Sally" have you:) Men and women can never 'just be friends'.

Oh wait. That's bullshit too.

Do nice guys EVER finish first? :confused:

Yep and they kill the hopes of all the rest of us and give rise to these threads, and lead to me making an ass of myself. I'd like to apologise to all the women posting or reading this thread. My previous comments have been ill tempered and misjudged. Like many of you I'm sure, I get pretty riled about certain things and this hasn't been a good time for me relationship wise. I should never have vented that displeasure on this forum, or the female population at large. Again, my apologies. I've re-read my posts and they're all pretty much bullshit born of frustration and anger. If you don't accept my apology, I understand.
Accepted.

I can bitch about assholes with the best of them. Male or female. But if you let yourself believe that because of negative past experiences, your future will be full of the same, you'll probably be right.

Robonic, that's riddiculous. Your statement may be partly true, but you ignore, or maybe just do not see, the huge exceptions.
Yes, the jocks may be the most appealing at first, but that just means that non-jocks have to try harder.
I'll be the first (as a cliche expression), to admit that I am no jock. I run track and XC, but being fast doesn't really put me up with the football meatheads or the sweet laxers. Nonetheless, I have had my fair share of girls. They have been of all sorts, and I pride myself on it.
I think my successful experience with girls is fairly common.
"Geting girls" may be called an art, but it is in no way a science (not that that hasn't been said 40000000 times before). As long as one looks pretty good, pretty much any girl is fair game. I would argue that confidence is the largest factor. A girl will never accept the advances of the squirming, stammering guy, or even the guy that just kind of comes up and says "hi." Come up to a girl (parties and dances, assuming you have sweet school dances, are best, but any place works) with a big smile, exude happiness and confidence, say hi, then start talking. Sweep the girl away in a good time and bam.
I am going to assume you lack the neccessary confidence, as your statement indicates, so go grow your balls a little more.

Your title, though, does have merit. For a relationship, girls often prefer the nice guy and appreciate him, but it's harder otherwise. It isn't because being nice is bad, but often the nice guy becomes just a friend and makes no confident advance. Being the "bad guy" has several merits. 1) Girls seem fundamentally a little more attracted (not in a sexual way) to the bad guy. 2) The bad guy is often more aggressive with the girls, a huge plus. 3) A bad guy often puts the girl down. This makes the girl try to raise herself in the guy's standing, work for him. The opposite is true for the nice guy: She doesn't have to do anything for him. 4) The bad guy is often more fun.
Now, that doesn't mean the nice guy needs to have a really, really tough time. Just become the bad guy. Treat girls with a little less respect; don't fawn over them. Be interesting. Be mysterious. Force it. It will become natural after a while.
That was basically me: the really nice, polite, well brought up kid. I'll be honest, I didn't kiss a girl until the summer going into my sophmore year. But things have changed considerably. And I'm sure you could do the same.

A last tip: go to parties where you know very few people or dances where there's a ton of people. It's easier when the girls don't know you're not in their crowd and the group is self exclusive (I always feel awkward at parties where it's all the "cool" boys and girls. I'm especially awkward around many of the "cool" guys.) Go up to every attractive girl you see. You're bound to make it once.

You haven't watched "When Harry Met Sally" have you:) Men and women can never 'just be friends'. I tried to once, when I was cat-sitting, but I couldn't get their damned DVD player to work. bloody remote control.

Oh wait. That's bullshit too."But I have lots of guy friends!!!" :D

Do nice guys EVER finish first? :confused:Yes. Just like in "There's Something About Mary", nice guys make sure they 'finish' before they go out on a date with a girl, so that sexual tension doesn't foul things up:)

Accepted.

I can bitch about assholes with the best of them. Male or female. But if you let yourself believe that because of negative past experiences, your future will be full of the same, you'll probably be right.
(sorry to double post)
100% true

This is an honest question: what is wrong with wanting to be friends with an ex, if its genuine? I had a good relationship with my boyfriend, and we care about each other alot - I wouldn't want to lose him as part of my life for anything. A few months ago, he moved away, and for various reasons we broke it off, and re-broke up when he moved back for various other reasons. But anyway, throughout that time, we were still talking, and still close. He was a good friend to me, even though emotions were tumultuous.

In this case, we got back together, because being friends just was not really good enough, but still, I feel that if someday we end up breaking up, I would want to keep him as a frined. He's important to my life, and I love him. What's so wrong about that?

I wasn't speaking about exs. But I'd say that there is a lot of water under certain bridges and that it can't truly be forgotten, so sometimes the wisest course is to part company for good. On the other hand, many people do stay in touch with their exs and have healthy happy friendships. Go with your gut.

I hear the same crap from the lips of good women, who whine that all the good men are taken. TRY HARDER. Or be happy single.


I have been trying for a very long time to be the kind of man a woman would want to be with. You have no idea what I'm working against. Please, in the future, try not to be so judgemental.

Girls don't want money or cars, they want a man. They don't like 'nice guys' because nice guys lack confidence and are shy and boring ~the opposite defination of what a man is.

Don't blame the girls, blame the guys that don't get it.

Next, I'll be highlighted as an example of one of those 'bad women'...because a good woman would listen, sympathise, agree that women are for the most part bitches, and go down on him.

I suppose you find some men sexually attractive, too. No good woman has a sex drive other than to please their man.

Thats what this all boils down to, this guy thinks that women should ignore his looks so that he can have the best looking one.

Accepted.

I can bitch about assholes with the best of them. Male or female. But if you let yourself believe that because of negative past experiences, your future will be full of the same, you'll probably be right.

And the truth shall set me free. :) Sorry, I'm a difficult person to live with at the best of times, never mind when I'm a bit down in the dumps.

What just happen to the ladies in our societies, while they like to dress and look like models or actresses, us guys just put on anything in our sight. Especially me, I don't care how I look to others, I put on anything that seems clean, can fit in it and takes less than 2 minutes. :D. I've noticed that ladies are just like us guys, they wanna fool around in their young lives and then settle down, so all the young "nice" guys out there, just have a good time too ;) but don't try settling down with floozy ones to quickly and don't get caught up in their messed up lives (financially debt or whatsoever). This advice also goes out vice-versa for the ladies out there.

I have been trying for a very long time to be the kind of man a woman would want to be with. You have no idea what I'm working against. Please, in the future, try not to be so judgemental.
It's not judgmental to tell you that you will fail. You will fail to remake yourself in the image of 'the kind of man a woman would want to be with'. Why? Because WOMAN does not exist. Women are people, just like men, who want, and like different things. What one woman finds sexy, another considers repulsive. And you can not exist in a perpetual state of acting. You can only be who you are...temper those aspects of your personality you think might be offputting...sure...but you can not become someone else. Because even if you succeed, and find love...she won't love YOU. She'll love the construct you've created.

Yes. Just like in "There's Something About Mary", nice guys make sure they 'finish' before they go out on a date with a girl, so that sexual tension doesn't foul things up:)
So that's a "no" disguised as a "yes"? :confused:

I, once again, shall throw in my 2 cent. I've been around the dating scene. I've dated one nice girl who moved, and she was pretty cool. However, I did screw that up by doing a few stupid things. That was my fault. The next girl I dated was a manupilative gold digging, worthless bitch. We only dated for six months and she only wanted me for cash. That was the last girl I've dated. I've tend to agree with the starter on this thread on the issuse that women do value "good looks". I take care of myself and my body, but due to a birth defect I am not the best looking guy on the field.

Heres a pic of me for those who are intrested. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v73/PAY5353/a720.jpg

I've been single for 3 years now, and I get all kind of excuses. They got a boyfriend, they just want to be friends (and then proceed to date the "cute" guy at the bar.), I'm not in the militatry, I'm not a "bad boy", I'm not a jock. The list goes on and on. I really am a nice person. I have alot of friends, I take care of stray cats at my college, and I get along with people in general. I'm also hard working, and sometimes I'm stubborn with things, and stuff, but who isn't. I see alot of women today who like to "party" (slut), and go to "bars"(want free drink), and they TYpE LiKe THis. Which annoys me to no end. I think my brother got lucky. He met one of those nice girls, and they are now married. The nice girls are far in between.

I dunno, maybe it's me.

Girls don't want money or cars, they want a man. They don't like 'nice guys' because nice guys lack confidence and are shy and boring ~the opposite defination of what a man is.

Don't blame the girls, blame the guys that don't get it.
Just when I think we're making progress...

Women have for years been oppressed in western society. Fact
Women have been held to impossible standards of 'physical beauty'. Fact
Women haven't earned as much as male counterparts in the workplace until the last two decades or so. Fact

Fair enough. But I ask you this. Why do women constantly ask for honesty and openness and as soon as a guy gives it to them, they bite his head off?

Why do men (not all men, see the stereotypical jock in the thread header) have to jump through hoops and fire to please a woman and get her respect?

I'd respect you for telling me to get lost faster then I will if you said 'let's be friends'Here's the major difference between your two examples. In the first set of circumstances, you're describing institutional wrongs that have been done to women since the founding of human society. These are societal wrongs visited by one class of people on another class, with individual exceptions.

But your second example is not an institutional one. You admit in your own example that your example doesn't apply to all men, but the way you wrote the bolded part there assumes a universal woman who reacts the same way to the same stimuli. Now that may not have been what you meant, but that is what you wrote, and it's a problem because it speaks to the very heart of this discussion, the notion that there is a particular way in which women react to men, when as anyone who has been in relationships knows, every woman reacts differently in every relationship, as does every man. I react differently to my current girlfriend (who I've been with for five years now) than I ever did to my ex-wife, even when we were happily married. Individuals are different, and applying universal accusations to them never works out.

Girls don't want money or cars, they want a man. They don't like 'nice guys' because nice guys lack confidence and are shy and boring ~the opposite defination of what a man is.

Don't blame the girls, blame the guys that don't get it.


Wouldn't say that. Many men simply won't approach a girl because they(the guy) think she's out of reach, and its not just the 'nice guys' I'm talking about. And it does have a lot to do with looks unfortunately, because yes men are as shallow and one track minded as society makes us out to be. But women don't completly ignore physical attraction either. Who among you doesn't think Brad Pitt or Johnny Depp are good looking. Men and women are equally at fault here, this is society's problem and we are society, like it or not.

Just when I think we're making progress...
In what ways? explain.

Here's the major difference between your two examples. In the first set of circumstances, you're describing institutional wrongs that have been done to women since the founding of human society. These are societal wrongs visited by one class of people on another class, with individual exceptions.

But your second example is not an institutional one. You admit in your own example that your example doesn't apply to all men, but the way you wrote the bolded part there assumes a universal woman who reacts the same way to the same stimuli. Now that may not have been what you meant, but that is what you wrote, and it's a problem because it speaks to the very heart of this discussion, the notion that there is a particular way in which women react to men, when as anyone who has been in relationships knows, every woman reacts differently in every relationship, as does every man. I react differently to my current girlfriend (who I've been with for five years now) than I ever did to my ex-wife, even when we were happily married. Individuals are different, and applying universal accusations to them never works out.


Accepted. Fine point made, and I see your logic. My own assertations were based more on emotion at the time then logic and common sense.

I, once again, shall throw in my 2 cent. I've been around the dating scene. I've dated one nice girl who moved, and she was pretty cool. However, I did screw that up by doing a few stupid things. That was my fault. The next girl I dated was a manupilative gold digging, worthless bitch. We only dated for six months and she only wanted me for cash. That was the last girl I've dated. I've tend to agree with the starter on this thread on the issuse that women do value "good looks". I take care of myself and my body, but due to a birth defect I am not the best looking guy on the field.

Heres a pic of me for those who are intrested. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v73/PAY5353/a720.jpg

I've been single for 3 years now, and I get all kind of excuses. They got a boyfriend, they just want to be friends (and then proceed to date the "cute" guy at the bar.), I'm not in the militatry, I'm not a "bad boy", I'm not a jock. The list goes on and on. I really am a nice person. I have alot of friends, I take care of stray cats at my college, and I get along with people in general. I'm also hard working, and sometimes I'm stubborn with things, and stuff, but who isn't. I see alot of women today who like to "party" (slut), and go to "bars"(want free drink), and they TYpE LiKe THis. Which annoys me to no end. I think my brother got lucky. He met one of those nice girls, and they are now married. The nice girls are far in between.

I dunno, maybe it's me.
Yes, looks matter. But there is no set standard of handsome or beautiful. My cousin has a huge, dark birthmark that covers the left side of her face. You can't miss it. She had a few terrible, heartbreaking realtionships, and gave up on every settling down. But lo and behold, here she is, three kids and a great husband later. This stuff happens when you least expect it (kind of like getting pregnant actually). My uncle was a bachelor late into his 40s...we never thought he'd marry. But he did. Some of us settle down younger...is that because we're better looking, or nicer? NO! All of us have had bad experiences with creeps, male or female. But would it be any better to be in love with everyone you came across, and have that love reciprocated? *shudders*...I'd still be with Ricki 'the Italian Stallion' if that were the way it went...save me from such terror!

Wow. Way to generalize.

I think this is exactly what some of the other authors meant by whiny individuals who can't do anything but wallow in their own misery about how they can't get a girl.

Here's a news flash for you, friend... if you don't think there's a girl out there for you, or you don't think you can get her, then there's not and you can't. Persistance... or at least the will to try... is totally key.


Wow, way to be offensive. Tell you what: why don't you live my life for awhile. Then you'll have the right to say that. And frankly, I don't buy the arguement that if I don't think there's someone out there for me, there won't be. It makes no sense to say that my belief somehow magically makes the universe decide to screw me over. If you must know, I am still hanging on to a desperate hope that there is someone out there. It just gets harder to keep up hope as more and more time passes. I am not "whining" as you so eloquently put it. You have no idea what the circumstances of my life are, and therefore you have no right to pass judgement.

Wouldn't say that. Many men simply won't approach a girl because they(the guy) think she's out of reach, and its not just the 'nice guys' I'm talking about. And it does have a lot to do with looks unfortunately, because yes men are as shallow and one track minded as society makes us out to be. But women don't completly ignore physical attraction either. Who among you doesn't think Brad Pitt or Johnny Depp are good looking. Men and women are equally at fault here, this is society's problem and we are society, like it or not.
Ay, women do this too...think a guy is out of her reach, I mean. And oh...it hurts...it HURTS when you find out later (usually when you're in a relationship) that you totally had a chance. Grrrrr. It's funny...many people say that it's when they finally get into a relationship, that all these people suddenly start coming on to them. Why is that? Because you're confident. You're not looking, you're not desperate...you have someone. Suddenly, you get noticed. Too bad for you, that usually means you either fuck up your relationship by cheating, or you take a pass:)

Can we all agree, on both sides, that negative stereotypes have pretty much cloudy our individual perceptions and that societial stereotyping in general won't ever allow us to come to an amicable settlement on this issue. Somewhere, right now, a guy is getting blown off by 'the love of his life' and so is a girl. Sh*t happens, and it hurts. Pick yourself up and move on. We only fall down so we can learn to pick ourselves up again

EDIT Arggghhhh! Should read 'clouded our individual perceptions' Damn typos

In what ways? explain.
Oh, well it had seemed that we'd moved past making generalisations based on personal experiences. But then you popped in, and made another...based on the idea that 'women want a real man'...

Women want different things. Their definition of a real man is going to be very personal, and not homogenous. Some women don't want men at all:).

:confused: Um... I guess things have changed considerably since I was in school (back before Return of the Jedi came out).
I was in that click of smart and/or priviledged kids that knew we were on track for at least moderately successful lives.
We really sort of pittied the jocks and cheerleaders and all those that ran after them.
We knew they were headed for deeply disappointing futures and their impressions of us, frankly, we couldn't give a damn about.
I don't know about your teachers, but ours often spoke with us in confidence about how pathetic they thought the groups you mention were.
If jocks are indeed today considered the creme de la creme of the educational system, I think western civilization is in for quite a rough ride over the coming decades. The least of our worries is whether they're reproducing.

Ay, women do this too...think a guy is out of her reach, I mean. And oh...it hurts...it HURTS when you find out later (usually when you're in a relationship) that you totally had a chance. Grrrrr. It's funny...many people say that it's when they finally get into a relationship, that all these people suddenly start coming on to them. Why is that? Because you're confident. You're not looking, you're not desperate...you have someone. Suddenly, you get noticed. Too bad for you, that usually means you either fuck up your relationship by cheating, or you take a pass:)

People always want what they can't have. I want to have space travel. Live on Mars, a fast car, a job where I don't wake up in the morning and think of other jobs I could be doing. The principals the same. People suck

Yes, looks matter. But there is no set standard of handsome or beautiful. My cousin has a huge, dark birthmark that covers the left side of her face. You can't miss it. She had a few terrible, heartbreaking realtionships, and gave up on every settling down. But lo and behold, here she is, three kids and a great husband later. This stuff happens when you least expect it (kind of like getting pregnant actually). My uncle was a bachelor late into his 40s...we never thought he'd marry. But he did. Some of us settle down younger...is that because we're better looking, or nicer? NO! All of us have had bad experiences with creeps, male or female. But would it be any better to be in love with everyone you came across, and have that love reciprocated? *shudders*...I'd still be with Ricki 'the Italian Stallion' if that were the way it went...save me from such terror!

I heard this at a confrence for people with my disability, and personally I think these people are either A. Afraid B. Self Centered or C. Worried.

A. They are afraid what I have means for them. Let me give you an example. If a guy is handicapped from a car accident, it's acceptable. Why because you can avoid that. All you need to do is buckle up, drive slower, and not drive drunk. If a guy is handicapped through Genetics, once again, acceptable. Why, because you can have your DNA screened and prepare for this if your children will have it etc. However, I have Goldenhar Syndrome. You can't get it from an accident, and you can't get it via DNA. It just happens. Goldenhar and Treacher Collins Syndrome just happens to random babies when they were being created inside the mothers womb.

B. They are afraid what their family will think, friends, co-workers, strangers. I never got this personally, I mean which would you rather have. A jock boyfriend who doesn't pay your way on the first date, treat you like crap in public and hit on other women on your date. Or do you want a nice handicapped guy who'll treat you like a person. If you think you can do better than a handicapped person, you need to get over yourself.

C.. They are worried for several reason, too many to list here.

What I am trying to say is that looks plays a very big part of it. I got delt a bad hand when it comes to look, and the doctor who blotched one of my surgery thus giving me this handsome scar on my face, didn't help it. But you know what, I don't care, I know who I am, I know what I want in life, and I know that anyone who isn't willing to date me just because I look "weird" and "diffrent" isn't worth my time.

:confused: Um... I guess things have changed considerably since I was in school (back before Return of the Jedi came out).
I was in that click of smart and/or priviledged kids that knew we were on track for at least moderately successful lives.
We really sort of pittied the jocks and cheerleaders and all those that ran after them.
We knew they were headed for deeply disappointing futures and their impressions of us, frankly, we couldn't give a damn about.
I don't know about your teachers, but ours often spoke with us in confidence about how pathetic they thought the groups you mention were.If jocks are indeed today considered the creme de la creme of the educational system, I think western civilization is in for quite a rough ride over the coming decades. The least of our worries is whether they're reproducing.

Same here. I am more successful in some ways then the 'jocks' of my school days, but in others (the topic of this thread for one) I'm not. Life never lets you know till it happens. I suppose hindsight is a wonderful thing, but a cruel joke in someways cause you always wonder 'what if I...'

:mad: I hate Good Charlotte with a passion, but they hit the nail on the head with these lyrics:-

'Girls don't like boys, girls like cars and money'.

Most women are vapid, self indulgent gold diggers with no common sense when it comes to men. They all claim to want a nice guy, but its only when you act like a b*stard that they get interested and only stay interested when they see the bulge in your wallet. This sh*t makes me sick.

EDIT I don't include all women in the above statement, but the execption, rather then the rule is excluded. Those women not falling into the above bracket know who they are and should be proud of that fact.

You know what? Maybe you have a problem understanding what constitutes a nice guy to a woman. They also refer to them as "good" guys.

Women, understandably, want a guy that is going to be a proper care giver for the family that she will be wanting sooner or later. she is going to seek a man with nice even features, a healthy looking physique, basic social skills, and a tendancy to be well groomed and clean.

So when good charlotte rants "girls like cars and money", well, women have wanted guys that are motivated to provide the good life for their families long before cars and money were around.

So thats why girls go for the jocks. You failed to note, or perhaps even notice, that even the average and less than average girls are also attracted to those types. Thats probably because you dont notice those girls any more than the hot girls notice you.

You know what? Maybe you have a problem understanding what constitutes a nice guy to a woman. They also refer to them as "good" guys.

Women, understandably, want a guy that is going to be a proper care giver for the family that she will be wanting sooner or later. she is going to seek a man with nice even features, a healthy looking physique, basic social skills, and a tendancy to be well groomed and clean.

So when good charlotte rants "girls like cars and money", well, women have wanted guys that are motivated to provide the good life for their families long before cars and money were around.

So thats why girls go for the jocks. You failed to note, or perhaps even notice, that even the average and less than average girls are also attracted to those types. Thats probably because you dont notice those girls any more than the hot girls notice you.

That's not entirelly true, my dad was a jock, he was a football player. He once told me that he dated a girl who only wanted to date football players because at his school, the girlfriend wear the Uniforms. I'm going to be a teacher for a living (community college), so I won't have alot of money. Whatever, if girls want to date rich jerks, let them. All that means to me is more money for my hobby of aviation

*gets into his airplanes and flies off*

It's not judgmental to tell you that you will fail. You will fail to remake yourself in the image of 'the kind of man a woman would want to be with'. Why? Because WOMAN does not exist. Women are people, just like men, who want, and like different things. What one woman finds sexy, another considers repulsive. And you can not exist in a perpetual state of acting. You can only be who you are...temper those aspects of your personality you think might be offputting...sure...but you can not become someone else. Because even if you succeed, and find love...she won't love YOU. She'll love the construct you've created.


I didn't mean that, and I think you know that. In every relationship I've ever been in (and yes, I have been in relationships) I have been the "nice guy". Not as some artificial construct, but because despite the bitterness (and I admit, there's a lot of bitterness there) that has accumulated, I am a nice, decent guy, and I believe in treating my partner with respect, courtesy, and love. It's never been enough. You see the bitterness, and assume that's all there is to me. It isn't. I have my share of issues to work out, which I'm doing. I don't currently hold a job, so admittedly, I'm not much of a catch in that respect. But I've returned to school FOR MYSELF -- not to "catch a woman", so eventually, my unemployment status will change also. But for reasons far beyond my control, I'll still have trouble finding someone, unless it's someone like my last couple of relationships who just wanted to take advantage of me. It might be impossible. I'm begginning to think it may be. But I'm still here, and I'm still looking. If you knew more about me, you'd understand why I feel this way.

You know what? Maybe you have a problem understanding what constitutes a nice guy to a woman. They also refer to them as "good" guys.

Women, understandably, want a guy that is going to be a proper care giver for the family that she will be wanting sooner or later. she is going to seek a man with nice even features, a healthy looking physique, basic social skills, and a tendancy to be well groomed and clean.

So when good charlotte rants "girls like cars and money", well, women have wanted guys that are motivated to provide the good life for their families long before cars and money were around.

So thats why girls go for the jocks. You failed to note, or perhaps even notice, that even the average and less than average girls are also attracted to those types. Thats probably because you dont notice those girls any more than the hot girls notice you.

I notice all women, because I'm observant and I don't believe that looks are the be all and end all of a relationship. In fact, the women I've gone out with have never been what you would call physically beautiful, but they were interesting and intelligent. Unfortunately they screwed me over and spat on my feelings faster then I could blink when some asshole crocked his little finger at them, but hey, lets just confine 'partner must have great looks' as a requiste for a relationship to men only

Plus I don't think defending my position wins you the argument :confused:

What I am trying to say is that looks plays a very big part of it. I got delt a bad hand when it comes to look, and the doctor who blotched one of my surgery thus giving me this handsome scar on my face, didn't help it. But you know what, I don't care, I know who I am, I know what I want in life, and I know that anyone who isn't willing to date me just because I look "weird" and "diffrent" isn't worth my time.

That's beautiful. It really is.

I notice all women, because I'm oberservant and I don't believe that looks are the be all and end all of a relationship. In fact, the women I've gone out with have never been what you would call physically beautiful, but they were interesting and intelligent. Unfortunately they screwed me over and spat on my feelings faster then I could blink when some asshole crocked his little finger at them, but hey, lets just confine 'partner must have great looks' as a requiste for a relationship to men only

Oh that is bullshit, women too have the requirement that the guy must look great. I can't tell you how many women I've talked too, in their requirement list, has "Must look good." When I ask them what they mean they say "Well must be handsome, normal looking, etc."

I didn't mean that, and I think you know that. In every relationship I've ever been in (and yes, I have been in relationships) I have been the "nice guy". Not as some artificial construct, but because despite the bitterness (and I admit, there's a lot of bitterness there) that has accumulated, I am a nice, decent guy, and I believe in treating my partner with respect, courtesy, and love. It's never been enough. You see the bitterness, and assume that's all there is to me. It isn't. I have my share of issues to work out, which I'm doing. I don't currently hold a job, so admittedly, I'm not much of a catch in that respect. But I've returned to school FOR MYSELF -- not to "catch a woman", so eventually, my unemployment status will change also. But for reasons far beyond my control, I'll still have trouble finding someone, unless it's someone like my last couple of relationships who just wanted to take advantage of me. It might be impossible. I'm begginning to think it may be. But I'm still here, and I'm still looking. If you knew more about me, you'd understand why I feel this way.

Bitterness never helps, but you can't help it building up can you. How many times can one man or woman be kicked down and still want to get back in the fight? Maybe we all have a limit, I know I've reached mine. I am tired of fighting and trying to get somewhere that I can't reach. Others should carry on until they've expended every avenue, but don't carry on past the point you know is the last you have to give. It just makes you twisted and bitter and you lose something you never get back.

Oh that is bullshit, women too have the requirement that the guy must look great. I can't tell you how many women I've talked too, in their requirement list, has "Must look good." When I ask them what they mean they say "Well must be handsome, normal looking, etc."

Being sarcastic in response to a previous post. I know women look for handsomeness in a man. I just wanted to make a point about that

EDIT Again I fall into stereotypes. I don't mean all women, but no matter what I say, I feel I'm in for a shot here, so go ahead make it a good one.

Oh, well it had seemed that we'd moved past making generalisations based on personal experiences. But then you popped in, and made another...based on the idea that 'women want a real man'...

Women want different things. Their definition of a real man is going to be very personal, and not homogenous. Some women don't want men at all:).
How can we not make generalisations? I don't have time to describle every womens taste. However there are many characteristics that most women find attractive. Trustworthness(is that a word? lol), good personality, funny ~not goofy~, confidence, outgoing etc. Most of which describe what it is to be a man.

When I say 'Women don't like nice guys' I don't mean they want to be with some jerk either.

"Some women don't want men at all."
haha, and they are some of the best kind!

I heard this at a confrence for people with my disability, and personally I think these people are either A. Afraid B. Self Centered or C. Worried.

A. They are afraid what I have means for them. Let me give you an example. If a guy is handicapped from a car accident, it's acceptable. Why because you can avoid that. All you need to do is buckle up, drive slower, and not drive drunk. If a guy is handicapped through Genetics, once again, acceptable. Why, because you can have your DNA screened and prepare for this if your children will have it etc. However, I have Goldenhar Syndrome. You can't get it from an accident, and you can't get it via DNA. It just happens. Goldenhar and Treacher Collins Syndrome just happens to random babies when they were being created inside the mothers womb.

B. They are afraid what their family will think, friends, co-workers, strangers. I never got this personally, I mean which would you rather have. A jock boyfriend who doesn't pay your way on the first date, treat you like crap in public and hit on other women on your date. Or do you want a nice handicapped guy who'll treat you like a person. If you think you can do better than a handicapped person, you need to get over yourself.

C.. They are worried for several reason, too many to list here.

What I am trying to say is that looks plays a very big part of it. I got delt a bad hand when it comes to look, and the doctor who blotched one of my surgery thus giving me this handsome scar on my face, didn't help it. But you know what, I don't care, I know who I am, I know what I want in life, and I know that anyone who isn't willing to date me just because I look "weird" and "diffrent" isn't worth my time.

This is a very large part of my problem, as well. Although my disability is genetic, and believe me, most people don't find it ok. Thank you for putting it better than I could have. And I wish I had your attitude.

Bitterness never helps, but you can't help it building up can you. How many times can one man or woman be kicked down and still want to get back in the fight? Maybe we all have a limit, I know I've reached mine. I am tired of fighting and trying to get somewhere that I can't reach. Others should carry on until they've expended every avenue, but don't carry on past the point you know is the last you have to give. It just makes you twisted and bitter and you lose something you never get back.


Thank you! At least someone gets it.

Thank you! At least someone gets it.

Sorry to say I do. Guess when you feel lonely, you're never truly alone. :(

This is a very large part of my problem, as well. Thank you for putting it better than I could have. And I wish I had your attitude.

Eh after a while you learn that if you let these women get to you, then they have already won. You know what I do when I get down about this whole dating thing? I just go flying. The view of the earth from 3,000 feet is amazing.

Also, while still most would not find it acceptable, it is still more acceptable than just having a wild card in you. I mean it's like you have the Joker, and an 10. Your match has a Queen and a two. If you put your two hands together, and she knows you have the joker, they know what they are getting themselves into.

Me, I have a wildcard and a 9. The wildcard will either show up or don't.

Eh after a while you learn that if you let these women get to you, then they have already won. You know what I do when I get down about this whole dating thing? I just go flying. The view of the earth from 3,000 feet is amazing.


If I went flying everytime I got down about this, I'd never touch the ground again.

Eh after a while you learn that if you let these women get to you, then they have already won. You know what I do when I get down about this whole dating thing? I just go flying. The view of the earth from 3,000 feet is amazing.

I go out with my friends, watch a football game, see a movie, have a beer, something, anything to stay in contact with the good things in life. Hope springs eternal they say. The only eternity I see is black and cold, so I fill it with the light I have in my life.

If I went flying everytime I got down about this, I'd never touch the ground again.

LOL, I wouldn't either, but my plane only has a 3 hour fuel limit.

I go out with my friends, watch a football game, see a movie, have a beer, something, anything to stay in contact with the good things in life. Hope springs eternal they say. The only eternity I see is black and cold, so I fill it with the light I have in my life.

Yea, I do that too, I go camping, hiking, I hang out with the guys at the airport. I help my dad work on his Shelby Cobra, I fly, I watch Carolina Football, fun fun.

Yea, I do that too, I go camping, hiking, I hang out with the guys at the airport. I help my dad work on his Shelby Cobra, I fly, I watch Carolina Football, fun fun.

I watch real football. You know, the one you play with your feet? I think you call it soccer? :p

I watch real football. You know, the one you play with your feet? I think you call it soccer? :p

LOL, well let's not get into that debate again. Let's just say we both like to watch sports.

A. If you think you have thought of anything new, you have failed. This is such an incredibly old topic, its almost as bad as arguing about abortion, etc. If you must tell people your stance, throw it in a siggy.

B. You are making a complete hyperbole out of groups at schools. Well, actually, you just probably are. You might go to some wierd school, or maybe schools are different in different states. But at least here, in california, there is no real set groups. Sure, we have preps and jocks, but they hang out with each other, with the drama people, the band geeks, the choir(half of the choir is prep/jock), nerds, etc. There really aren't set groups over here, and I don't believe in most other places, either.

C. You have some valid points. However, Ladder theory and Intellectual whorism explain it about 5x better. I thank god the day someone pm'ed me on IRC about ladder theory, because it has helped me, socially, more than perhaps any other single thing in the world.

D. Writing a ranty essay on the computer won't help you score. Sorry.

There's not an inherent problem with the elite. In fact in my school the most popular people deserve their attention because they act nice to all that they meet. They've been quite friendly to me in all situations even though I like hanging out with the commoners who play Nintendo DS at lunch. Maybe some have a bad attitude, but the only thing you can do is change yourself an be a fun person. As far as getting all the girls, you may want to second guess yourself about the type of females you want. Remember that it is girls who want stupid men, while ladies prefer intelligence. If you want to play the idiot game you can hang around "Peter Pan" girls. Or, if you want a truly beautiful and intelligent woman, groom yourself well, dress nice, and be considerate. Nice guys finishing last? Not a problem.

As a nice guy who has dated around, and is now in a long-term relationship, let me give you a friendly piece of hopeful advice:

Nice guys finish last with 99% of girls. You guys out there who are, like me, geniunely nice... you don't want anything to do with those girls anyway. Granted, those often include the beauty-obsessed, vainglorious, daddy's girl snobs that always seem like the top of the scale... but they're not. Those girls (I've dated a few) will do nothing but make you miserable.

Truthfully, they're neither looking for nor worthy of a truly nice guy. Nice guys are a commodity not to be wasted on the self-absorbed. If you're a geniune nice guy, don't tear yourself up on those "ideal" girls... they're not really ideal at all. If you hold out for a nice girl (yes, guys, they do exist) it will seriously be worth it in the end.

Those "ideal" girls will either A.) end up barefoot and pregnant living in a trailer in the deep south, or B.) end up as an unhappy trophy wife to some wrinkly old foogey.

To you nice guys out there, I wish you patience and luck. The nice girl crowd is difficult to find, but entirely worth it.

Good points in this posting. My suggestion would be to get good grades and go on to college. There is where the real fun is and there are plenty of girls to go around. The average college campus has more "women" than men/boys. So just do good with your grades and your time will come in college. There is light at the end of the tunnel.

Wow, way to be offensive. Tell you what: why don't you live my life for awhile. Then you'll have the right to say that. And frankly, I don't buy the arguement that if I don't think there's someone out there for me, there won't be. It makes no sense to say that my belief somehow magically makes the universe decide to screw me over. If you must know, I am still hanging on to a desperate hope that there is someone out there. It just gets harder to keep up hope as more and more time passes. I am not "whining" as you so eloquently put it. You have no idea what the circumstances of my life are, and therefore you have no right to pass judgement.


You are whining, though, whining to an extreme. And I do know what the circumstances of your life are. I'm 17 and a half, never been kissed, much less had a girlfriend. But maybe, instead of whining about it online, you can try harder? Work out, go hang out with people. The number one way to be ignored is to be reclusive, thats why people do it, subconsciously.

There's not an inherent problem with the elite. In fact in my school the most popular people deserve their attention because they act nice to all that they meet. They've been quite friendly to me in all situations even though I like hanging out with the commoners who play Nintendo DS at lunch. Maybe some have a bad attitude, but the only thing you can do is change yourself an be a fun person. As far as getting all the girls, you may want to second guess yourself about the type of females you want. Remember that it is girls who want stupid men, while ladies prefer intelligence. If you want to play the idiot game you can hang around "Peter Pan" girls. Or, if you want a truly beautiful and intelligent woman, groom yourself well, dress nice, and be considerate. Nice guys finishing last? Not a problem.

Then why do the freshman at my school have to get hotter every year!?

:P

This was sort of touched upon earlier, but not really.
As much as nice guys finish last, nice girls do, too, especially if they aren't built in a certain way.

The OP complained cuz all the girls at his HS wanted to go out with jocks. In my experience, thats not the case at all. I mean, sure, many girls find Josh Hartnett attractive, and would sleep with him given the opportunity (I know I would). If a jock is good looking, and yes I mean by conventional "Hollywood" standards, cuz thats how most teens I've met judge, they will desire him. But most of us know he won't go out with us. The decent girls, you know, the ones it seems are being ignored while the "cheerleader" is fawned over just use that as a day dream for a boring class. And the girls I hang out with would not cheat with a guy who already had a girlfriend - jock or otherwise.

Just stop with the double standard. Don't be upset that nice guys finish last with the drop-dead gorgeous cheerleader, while you fail to notice the bookworm with weird hair who has been crushing on you all year.

NOTE: Obviously this does not apply for all women or all men. And there are "Happily"s even if it is not for ever after. Don't give up on all women.

LOL, well let's not get into that debate again. Let's just say we both like to watch sports.


Done. :headbang: don't want to keep having that discussion:D

I was an bouncer in a nightclub for many years, and I got a first hand view of the antics of drunken lonely people. Women can smell desperation from a mile away, and will avoid you like the plague. They can sense bitterness too.

Those really hot girls that everyone thinks are stuck up? Nah. They are just as lonely as everyone else. The really pretty, rich, spoiled princesses got everything on a silver platter as kids, and never learned social niceties. They are shy, dont know how to be affectionate or flirt, because they never had to use any savoir-faire to get what they wanted.

They tend to be of average intelligence, like most people, but nobody ever actually TALKS to them, and they suffer from a lack of skill in intelligent conversation. Their beauty blinds people to the fact that they have thoughts and feelings too.

If you want the heart of one, dont tell her shes pretty. You'll look like every other schmuck. Dont give her little gifts. You'll look like every other dick that is looking for a trophy wife. If you get to first base with her, make her stop. The message you give her is that you are not just out for a quick lay.

Most of them evolve into nice adults; learn some skills. As previous posters have stated, what happens in high school doesnt really matter later in life.

My favourite compliment to give is "You are really interesting to look at." I let her wonder if thats good or bad.. it makes them smile, but leaves them wondering what I really think of them. It never hurts to be a bit mysterious, or to keep her a little off kilter.

another good thing to say is, "I really like you, and I want to take it slow and enjoy every minute with you." Likely as not, she'll jump your bones right there.
Just make sure you mean it.

You are whining, though, whining to an extreme. And I do know what the circumstances of your life are. I'm 17 and a half, never been kissed, much less had a girlfriend. But maybe, instead of whining about it online, you can try harder? Work out, go hang out with people. The number one way to be ignored is to be reclusive, thats why people do it, subconsciously.


Thank you, Sigmund. I've been trying, thank you, since before you were born. When you're my age and still alone, then we'll talk. Can you say, beyond doubt, that my lack of a relationship is because I don't "try hard" enough?

This was sort of touched upon earlier, but not really.
As much as nice guys finish last, nice girls do, too, especially if they aren't built in a certain way.

The OP complained cuz all the girls at his HS wanted to go out with jocks. In my experience, thats not the case at all. I mean, sure, many girls find Josh Hartnett attractive, and would sleep with him given the opportunity (I know I would). If a jock is good looking, and yes I mean by conventional "Hollywood" standards, cuz thats how most teens I've met judge, they will desire him. But most of us know he won't go out with us. The decent girls, you know, the ones it seems are being ignored while the "cheerleader" is fawned over just use that as a day dream for a boring class. And the girls I hang out with would not cheat with a guy who already had a girlfriend - jock or otherwise.

Just stop with the double standard. Don't be upset that nice guys finish last with the drop-dead gorgeous cheerleader, while you fail to notice the bookworm with weird hair who has been crushing on you all year.

NOTE: Obviously this does not apply for all women or all men. And there are "Happily"s even if it is not for ever after. Don't give up on all women.


I've given up on the shallow women who are gold diggers.

I was an bouncer in a nightclub for many years, and I got a first hand view of the antics of drunken lonely people. Women can smell desperation from a mile away, and will avoid you like the plague. They can sense bitterness too.

Those really hot girls that everyone thinks are stuck up? Nah. They are just as lonely as everyone else. The really pretty, rich, spoiled princesses got everything on a silver platter as kids, and never learned social niceties. They are shy, dont know how to be affectionate or flirt, because they never had to use any savoir-faire to get what they wanted.

They tend to be of average intelligence, like most people, but nobody ever actually TALKS to them, and they suffer from a lack of skill in intelligent conversation. Their beauty blinds people to the fact that they have thoughts and feelings too.

If you want the heart of one, dont tell her shes pretty. You'll look like every other schmuck. Dont give her little gifts. You'll look like every other dick that is looking for a trophy wife. If you get to first base with her, make her stop. The message you give her is that you are not just out for a quick lay.

Most of them evolve into nice adults; learn some skills. As previous posters have stated, what happens in high school doesnt really matter later in life.

My favourite compliment to give is "You are really interesting to look at." I let her wonder if thats good or bad.. it makes them smile, but leaves them wondering what I really think of them. It never hurts to be a bit mysterious, or to keep her a little off kilter.

another good thing to say is, "I really like you, and I want to take it slow and enjoy every minute with you." Likely as not, she'll jump your bones right there.
Just make sure you mean it.

Good points. The problem with desperation and bitterness is they're viscous circles. I'm desperate and bitter because I"m alone, and I'm alone because I'm desperate and bitter.

My last post on this thread is this:

1. Many people have said you should change yourself to be successful with women/men. Harder then it sounds and bases the premise for every relationship you have on a lie. Be yourself, I am. I know that the man I am won't be a success with women for too many reasons to list, but I won't change cause I like ME.

2. The world compensates in other ways. Getting laid is not all you shoukd want. I am healthy, have a good career, travel when I can, and my family is happy and healthy too. So what if I can't have sex. The internet has other stuff besides these forums ;)

3. We all have our insecurities. We are all confident in some ways about ourselves. Just live how you want and don't mind the bullshit. Enough of it gets flung our way every day without us activly looking to step in it

Good points. The problem with desperation and bitterness is they're viscous circles. I'm desperate and bitter because I"m alone, and I'm alone because I'm desperate and bitter.


Ok really my last post. Damn straight, vicious circles indeed. But I ignore them as much as possible, let them fade into the background and get on with it. Screw society and its 'to be a success you must commit to a relationship' bolloxs.

If you want the heart of one, dont tell her shes pretty. You'll look like every other schmuck. Dont give her little gifts. You'll look like every other dick that is looking for a trophy wife. If you get to first base with her, make her stop. The message you give her is that you are not just out for a quick lay.




A trick is to not be blinded by there looks. I use to go up and talk to the "hotties" like they were just anybody else. I didn't really care to tell you the truth. Alot of times I would get numbers at the end of a conversation. They thought I was being cool with them by not hitting on them. The fact is that was my way of hitting on them. If they were not interested in talking I would say have a good night and walk away like it wasn't a bother. I sometimes would get them to come up later and just start talking.

Most women just want someone to talk with them and listen to them. Not act like a hound dog and try and talk them into bed. I never bought drinks or complimented on there looks. I would say sometimes compliment what they were wearing or the perfume they were wearing. I had good luck with this method. Sometimes I would get a girlfriend out of it and sometimes not. It did make me a few friends that were hot women. Then they will set you up with there girlfriends if they are not particular interested in your type.

Also make sure you are presenting yourself well. Dress nice and smile alot. Have a good time and be yourself.

Thank you, Sigmund. I've been trying, thank you, since before you were born. When you're my age and still alone, then we'll talk. Can you say, beyond doubt, that my lack of a relationship is because I don't "try hard" enough?

Can I? Sure. But I won't be rude.

Since this is the internet, I can only assume that you either have something horribly wrong about yourself, or you aren't trying hard enough. I don't believe at all that its based on heirarchial positions, or most of the other stuff people complain about. Perhaps trying more, and trying better should be differentiated. Try better.

I've given up on the shallow women who are gold diggers.

More for us!

Robonic, I know you don't want to hear this but... just hold your frakkin' horses. You're in the middle of a quasi ugly-duckling syndrome.
I get far more attention now (at 37) than I did in my prime (and a good deal of it comes from young ladies your age).
Cultivate yourself, immerse your intellect in things in which you're truly interested, and the rest will come.
Truth is, when you stop giving a damn they seem to drip out of the woodwork.
I've been celibate (no I'm not a priest, I just wanted to) for just shy of four years and I swear women I thought would never give me the time of day are reducing themeselves to embarrassing degrees to talk to me (I'll have to tell you the story about the dermatologist one day).
Relax. Do your thing. Toss off when needed and look forward to the day when they're after you... and you couldn't care less anyway.

Most of what your saying is true, I know I have been where you are now I'm in college and its so much better to me than high school, if you had instances of proof it would help a lot. I know you can get some or you might be trying to leave names out and make it less personal. The only section I dont really find truth in is the one about films. The idea that the jock was superior was out long before films portrayed that. What I recommend you do is READ the book Friday Night Lights. I know there is a movie, dont see that but read the book and it will have your thoughts in a organized manner in it. But all in all a good read with truth in it in my belief.

Can I? Sure. But I won't be rude.

Since this is the internet, I can only assume that you either have something horribly wrong about yourself, or you aren't trying hard enough. I don't believe at all that its based on heirarchial positions, or most of the other stuff people complain about. Perhaps trying more, and trying better should be differentiated. Try better.


In my case, it's the former. I do, indeed, have something horribly wrong about myself.

In my case, it's the former. I do, indeed, have something horribly wrong about myself.

Fair enough. I guess you're just screwed, or might get lucky.

Anyways, I suggest anyone complaining about women, going to www.intellectualwhores.com/forum

You will learn alot.

Put simply, "nice guys" finish last for a number of simple reasons, or any combination of:

1) They think they are entitled to something because they are "nice". They act "nice" to try and get laid. This is transparent and quite obvious. If you are a self-professed nice guy, you probably aren't "nice" at all and thus deserve nothing. These are Nice Guys™.

2) They lack confidence and bemoan their lack of success in relationships becuase it's a lot easier and less mentally harmful than making repeated efforts at starting one and constantly being rebuffed. And then an Asshole Jock™ or Cool-Guy-With-A-Fast-Car™ steals your crush away from you.

3) They are simply ugly. Sad but true. They may be genuinely nice, and have a great sense of humor, everything a girl is supposedly looking for...but it's easy for a woman say that physical attractiveness isn't a problem. It's much harder for them to put that into practice. It can happen, though. Rarely. Very rarely.

4) They have no ambition or direction. They may be nice and all, but no girl wants to be with a guy who cannot take care of himself and will become a burden upon her.

5) Somewhat related to the above: they attempt to appeal to women in several unusual ways. They think bemoaning their problems and state of being single to women will make them become romantically interested in you. No, they find it simply annoying, unless they're already attracted to you, in which case it will possibly ruin that attractiveness anyway - you're probably too self-absorbed to notice her attention. Again, no girl wants a burden upon her. This may acceptable once in a while (for example, it would be okay if your mother just died), but it still leads to the Ever-Dreaded-Just-Friends-Syndrome™ regardless.

Of course, there are others. But you get the idea.

Put simply, "nice guys" finish last for a number of simple reasons, or any combination of:

1) They think they are entitled to something because they are "nice". They act "nice" to try and get laid. This is transparent and quite obvious. If you are a self-professed nice guy, you probably aren't "nice" at all and thus deserve nothing. These are Nice Guys™.

2) They lack confidence and bemoan their lack of success in relationships becuase it's a lot easier and less mentally harmful than making repeated efforts at starting one and constantly being rebuffed. And then an Asshole Jock™ or Cool-Guy-With-A-Fast-Car™ steals your crush away from you.

3) They are simply ugly. Sad but true. They may be genuinely nice, and have a great sense of humor, everything a girl is supposedly looking for...but it's easy for a woman say that physical attractiveness isn't a problem. It's much harder for them to put that into practice. It can happen, though. Rarely. Very rarely.

4) They have no ambition or direction. They may be nice and all, but no girl wants to be with a guy who cannot take care of himself and will become a burden upon her.

5) Somewhat related to the above: they attempt to appeal to women in several unusual ways. They think bemoaning their problems and state of being single to women will make them become romantically interested in you. No, they find it simply annoying, unless they're already attracted to you, in which case it will possibly ruin that attractiveness anyway - you're probably too self-absorbed to notice her attention. Again, no girl wants a burden upon her. This may acceptable once in a while (for example, it would be okay if your mother just died), but it still leads to the Ever-Dreaded-Just-Friends-Syndrome™ regardless.

Of course, there are others. But you get the idea.


Wow, and people think I'm cynical. :rolleyes:

Wow, and people think I'm cynical. :rolleyes:

Can you deny any of it? Put simply: no girl wants a guy that is going to be a burden. No girl wants a guy that is just in it for the sex. And a lack of confidence will make any relationship impossible.

umm... if Stephen Hawking could find a girl and get married, anybody can. She knew he was sick when they met. Google it.
Having said that... I am still single.


.

umm... if Stephen Hawking could find a girl and get married, anybody can. She knew he was sick when they met. Google it.
Having said that... I am still single.


.

Reportedly, she also beats the crap out of him. Some catch, Stevie boy.

Reportedly, she also beats the crap out of him. Some catch, Stevie boy.

...well, the situation obviously deteriorated later. She changed. Or he changed. I've always found him annoying.

umm... if Stephen Hawking could find a girl and get married, anybody can. She knew he was sick when they met. Google it.



.
btw didn't he dump his first wife when he met his current wife.

btw didn't he dump his first wife when he met his current wife.

... hell, yes. I think you are right.
So he gave himself the luxury of getting not one but two women in spite of his condition.

... hell, yes. I think you are right.
So he gave himself the luxury of getting not one but two women in spite of his condition.
Then again, he's not a "Nice Guy".

Then again, he's not a "Nice Guy".

And he's probably quite wealthy. And certainly very intelligent.

And he's probably quite wealthy. And certainly very intelligent.
I partially agree. But, was he wealthy in his university days?


.

Then again, he's not a "Nice Guy".

dammmit, there goes my argument...
Then, to you all nice guys out there, stop the self-pity and FIGHT for what is rightfully yours...!!!

I partially agree. But, was he wealthy in his university days?


.

No, but he was also healthy. He got Polio in his mid-20's, IIRC.

No, but he was also healthy. He got Polio in his mid-20's, IIRC.

QUOTE from www.hawking.org.uk ---> "In my third year at Oxford, however, I noticed that I seemed to be getting more clumsy, and I fell over once or twice for no apparent reason. But it was not until I was at Cambridge, in the following year, that my father noticed, and took me to the family doctor. He referred me to a specialist, and shortly after my 21st birthday, I went into hospital for tests. I was in for two weeks, during which I had a wide variety of tests. They took a muscle sample from my arm, stuck electrodes into me, and injected some radio opaque fluid into my spine, and watched it going up and down with x-rays, as they tilted the bed. After all that, they didn't tell me what I had, except that it was not multiple sclerosis, and that I was an a-typical case. I gathered, however, that they expected it to continue to get worse, and that there was nothing they could do, except give me vitamins. I could see that they didn't expect them to have much effect. I didn't feel like asking for more details, because they were obviously bad."

<edit>

"In fact, although there was a cloud hanging over my future, I found, to my surprise, that I was enjoying life in the present more than before. I began to make progress with my research, and I got engaged to a girl called Jane Wilde, whom I had met just about the time my condition was diagnosed. That engagement changed my life. It gave me something to live for."

He got engaged AFTER being diagnosed... interesting website, BTW.

He got engaged AFTER being diagnosed... interesting website, BTW.

Yeah, and? :p

Though he does seem to reiterate my earlier point - he didn't dwell on his problems and is obviously a confident person. He didn't sit around in his wheelchair bemoaning how useless he is and how he would never get any attention. Hence, he ended up with a woman.

That's the problem with a lot of "nice guys". It's easy to whinge, but it doesn't get you anywhere. If you truly are a nice person with qualities that others may find attractive, you will probably end up with someone sooner or later. If you sit around bitching about not being able to get laid, you get nothing. I may be cold, but in my experience, that's how things work. I was one of those idiots once, and it only served to turn people away.

You may not get anywhere even after giving up the whole act, like me :p But that's probably due to other factors on my part anyway and I no longer care anymore. There are more important things to involve myself with than self pity all the same.

I read your description of "the heirarchy" and come to realise that Hollywood high school-set movies are apparently rather truthful.

Want more info on why nice guys finish last?
www.laddertheory.com
Awww, not that shit again!

Nice guys finish last with 99% of girls. You guys out there who are, like me, geniunely nice... you don't want anything to do with those girls anyway.
Damn right! Girls like that are headwreckers! Your post also gets my seal of approval.

Nice guys finish last because they allow themselves to. Those who perpetuate this idea are usually not "nice guys", just guys who are not confident enough to pursue what they want, and then make up theories to spare their ego.
This is also true. Good point on addressing the term "nice guy", it is too often used to denote "guy without confidence". That doesn't mean they're evil, just that "nice guy" sounds better to them.

Why do men (not all men, see the stereotypical jock in the thread header) have to jump through hoops and fire to please a woman and get her respect?
No you don't! Is this honestly your experience? If you're not having fun while attracting a woman then it's probably not going to amount to anything anyway. (btw, I'm about the polar opposite to the stereotypical rugby jock, so don't get any ideas)

Truthfully, there has already been a post by a young lady on here who suggested that she will only date college age guys who are interested in a relationship.
I'll give her credit for being rational and efficient if nothing else!

And here is where we stray completely from fact, and crash headlong into 'anecdotal tripe'.

As much as I disagree with his opinions, my opinions are also based on personal experience (i.e. anecdotal evidence) and so are yours, I suspect. It's not like there are loads of reliable statistics on this 'topic' out there.

I can bitch about assholes with the best of them. Male or female. But if you let yourself believe that because of negative past experiences, your future will be full of the same, you'll probably be right.
And that's the truth! Preach it! Remember people, you're ultimately in charge of your own life. Don't overly rely on circumstances or other people.

It isn't because being nice is bad, but often the nice guy becomes just a friend and makes no confident advance. Being the "bad guy" has several merits. 1) Girls seem fundamentally a little more attracted to the bad guy. 2) The bad guy is often more aggressive with the girls, a huge plus. 3) A bad guy often puts the girl down. This makes the girl try to raise herself in the guy's standing, work for him. The opposite is true for the nice guy: She doesn't have to do anything for him. 4) The bad guy is often more fun.

Now, that doesn't mean the nice guy needs to have a really, really tough time. Just become the bad guy. Treat girls with a little less respect; don't fawn over them. Be interesting. Be mysterious. Force it. It will become natural after a while.
Definitely true (especially the bold parts). Nobody really likes approval-seeking behaviour. And again, to the dudes trying to attract girls, don't agree with them, and above all have fun! If you're not having fun then she probably isn't either.

panda theory ........ eats shoots and leaves

I used to think as much then I worked out the unconfident whiny guy finishes last, why would anyone think your attractive if you dont think so.

try acting confident its working for me, then your self esteem builds and you get actual confidence

Nice guys finish last because they allow themselves to. Those who perpetuate this idea are usually not "nice guys", just guys who are not confident enough to pursue what they want, and then make up theories to spare their ego.

You're half right. Nice guys finish last because they allow themselves to. They are unwilling to walk on other people to get what they want. They care about the feelings of others and do not put their own wants and needs above those of everyone else. They are the people who get the "we should just be friends" talk from the same people who time after time come to them crying about how terrible their boyfriend treats them. The self confidence issues arise from the fact that the world treats these people like doormats, and totally without appreciation. I would like to point out that this is not a high school issue. This is the way the world works.

So does that mean that guys who's exes think they are cold, heartless and utterly self-obsessed are destined to get to the very top?

Another comment I want to make is, the one way not to get the girl is to be there for her at all times. That causes her to take you for granted, and rightly so.

So does that mean that guys who's exes think they are cold, heartless and utterly self-obsessed are destined to get to the very top?
As with everything else in life, the middle ground is the best place to be. You don't want to be a doormat, but being an inconsiderate asshole is nothing to be admired.

Btw, what is "the very top"?

At least I'm honest about it. Plus this is based on years of experience and dealing with the whole 'lets be friends ok?' riff. Maybe I choose the wrong women, and I won't refer to any of them by names previously mentioned in this thread, but I won't have someone disrespect my opinions without cause or understanding

Oh yeah, I forgot. If you have a bad experince with a/some female/s, ALL females must be bad! Silly me.

Ever think it's your fault for going after those kind of girls in the first place? Says something about your character. Yes, I am one of those horrible people who judges guys based on who they date.

Dude relax. Its none of that. Girls that age are only looking to hook with guys who they think will give them status. If you can convince a girl that hooking up with you will give them class and status, you will have it made. It's all in how present yourself to them.

Wow, this thread has really rocketed over night. Now, to clear some things up. 1) As the original thread states, I am not complaining or asking for sympathy, in fact, I enjoy not being in a relationship, it lets me see things around me with a clear head. 2) The original post may not apply everywhere, I realize that, but from where I come from it is very much true. 3) I am not going through any kind of "akward" stage, so don't try to shrink me. 4) Thank you for all the constructive criticism, it has been well recieved. 5) It is not as much a scientific opinion as a observed opinion, but usually the act of observation is considered scientific, since it is part of the scientific process. Ok, I'm done for now.

You're half right. Nice guys finish last because they allow themselves to. They are unwilling to walk on other people to get what they want. They care about the feelings of others and do not put their own wants and needs above those of everyone else. They are the people who get the "we should just be friends" talk from the same people who time after time come to them crying about how terrible their boyfriend treats them. The self confidence issues arise from the fact that the world treats these people like doormats, and totally without appreciation. I would like to point out that this is not a high school issue. This is the way the world works.
"Nice guys" get dates and find girlfriends. Martyrs, whiners and sad bad true, not-too-goodlooking guys (who, of course, can be very nice) don't. The world treats them like doormats because they act like doormats.

What I am trying to say is that looks plays a very big part of it. I got delt a bad hand when it comes to look, and the doctor who blotched one of my surgery thus giving me this handsome scar on my face, didn't help it. But you know what, I don't care, I know who I am, I know what I want in life, and I know that anyone who isn't willing to date me just because I look "weird" and "diffrent" isn't worth my time.
That sounds like the healthiest approach to take.

Fair enough. I guess you're just screwed, or might get lucky.

Anyways, I suggest anyone complaining about women, going to www.intellectualwhores.com/forum

You will learn alot.
That looks like one truly sick forum. Way to wallow in self-pity while blaming it all on 'bitches'. Cripes.

I find it very funny the way in which some people in this thread are trying to categorize attraction and such. "Women all look for status", the 'Ladder Theory' bullshit, and all that. And then they whine about lack of relationship.
Well, if someone's going to treat women as some choiceless, inhuman whole by acting according to statements about "Women want X, women hate Y", I would imagine that would make it rather unpleasant to be in a relationship with them.

That looks like one truly sick forum. Way to wallow in self-pity while blaming it all on 'bitches'. Cripes.

Hate to say it, but its because you're one of "them".

I've never seen a girl just admit this is true. Yet, I've seen many guys agree. I think the girls just don't like being generalized in any sort of negative fashion, though honestly, I don't believe its like that at all.

Ladder theory doesn't say all women are bitches. The people in the forums are, for the most part, even less like that. The only girls they generalize as bitches are intellectual pimps, girls who consciously keep intellectual whores. And they are bitches.

Most girls do it subconsciously, and there is no blame, no hatred toward them. They don't have to want to be with all guys, all the time. Its just how it is.

Read ladder theory, and tell me why its incorrect. I've yet to hear a valid argument against it, and thats why the theory has passed the test of time. There are no real, valid arguments against it.

The only girls they generalize as bitches are intellectual pimps, girls who consciously keep intellectual whores. And they are bitches.

So you're a bitch if you won't have sex with a guy that you just want as a friend? Rigggght. I must be one horrible bitch because most of my friends are guys who I won't sleep with. I'm so going to hell.
And people always ask me "Why don't you start dating?" Then they look at me funny when I say that there are more nutters than normal people and I don't want to subject myself to that.

So you're a bitch if you won't have sex with a guy that you just want as a friend? Rigggght. I must be one horrible bitch because most of my friends are guys who I won't sleep with. I'm so going to hell.
And people always ask me "Why don't you start dating?" Then they look at me funny when I say that there are more nutters than normal people and I don't want to subject myself to that.

I should have explained better, though reading ladder theory would have let you clear up these misconceptions without my input.

An intellectual pimp is a woman who keeps men as intellectual whores, consciously. An intellectual whore is a man who wants to be with a woman, and thinks he has a chance, though he really doesn't. With this new info, realize that an intellectual pimp is not a girl who doesn't have sex with guys, but consciously knows they want to, and doesn't make it clear that they won't.

How many of those guys actively want you(Aka, don't have people higher on their ladder that they are going for/have, etc)? Do they all know they have no chance with you?

This is a short paper I wrote detailing what I believe to be wrong with the whole relationship idea in high schools today. Now, there are things in this paper that have the potential to be offensive to certain types of people, so if I offend you I am sorry, but this is a statement of scientific opinion. Also, if you have any CONSTRUCTIVE criticism reguarding it I would gladly recieve it. Please enjoy.

Why Nice Guys Finish Last
By: Robonic

As I have gone through my early life I have found there to be different social structures among today high school systems. When I started high school I was under the foolish assumption that any girl was “fair game” but soon came to the realization that this wasn’t true. I have found that girls have become very vain, and all they care about anymore in a relationship is six packs, muscles, and good sex. They have forgotten all too well that that’s not all to a guy. So I write this paper not as a sympathy plea, but so that girls may realize that what they have banked their standards in, are shallow and short lived at best.

Section 1: The Groups we live by
In high schools across America there is an overriding hierarchical system of power based on the fluid concept of “popularity”. There are usually four or five levels of this system give or take a few depending on your geographic location, but the basic levels are The common student, The science/ game nerds, the Punk Rockers and Goths, The band nerds, and the most elite are The Jocks. These are the groups from the biggest (most common) to the smallest (most elite). Like any hierarchical system, power and respect trickle down through the system, spearheaded by the alpha male. In this system there is also the mind set of “to the winner goes the spoils” and in such, the alpha male, or jock gets the prime female which usually consists of cheerleaders or other athletic counterparts equal to that of the male jock. Unlike other systems however, in which the other females go to the next highest level after the alpha male has chosen a mate (please excuse the terminology), all the high school girls try to go for the jocks whether he/ they are taken or not. This is where the common high school system goes terribly wrong. If you are not part of the elitist group (jocks) then you are discarded as not worth their “time”. This has been common place and understanding in high schools across America. This is what leads us into our next section of discussion.

Section 2: An Abuse of Power
Through the years this system has become more apparent in the high school systems, and I, not being in the jock “group”, am not the only one who has noticed this trend of power. The jocks of America, have also noticed this trend throughout the years. They have noticed it so much in fact, it has lead to an abuse of power never seen anywhere else in the world, this is not an understatement, but because we are “kids” the modern government fails to recognize this set governmental system, and thus it is not considered an “abuse of power” because there was never a power base present, according to modern day politicians. You may ask “what abuse is he talking about?” I am talking about the modern jock and there apathetic view of the rest of the high school system. If you are a jock you are considered the alpha and omega of the school system. The jock is known as the end all boyfriend for any girl, if they can get a jock to “go out with them” then they are automatically boosted to the top of the hierarchical pyramid we talked about earlier, and this is the main reason the jock is held as the “hottie” in schools today. This is also the main reason that the jock as the attitude of absolute disregard for anyone else. Usually the jock’s attitude is summed up in one word among the other people in high school, “jackass”. I am not sure if jocks know this is the reputation they have around the schools, or if they just don’t care, either way, this is the main reasons a girl’s relationship with a jock never lasts. This problem isn’t all inside the school though; there is another, more convincing culprit, more influential than anything else in the known world. Thy name is Hollywood.

Section 3: Hollywood’s Facade
Hollywood has given the foolish idea that a relationship with a jock is perfect, or for that fact, there is such a thing as a “perfect” relationship. I am sorry to tell all those girls that are out there waiting for that one certain “perfect” guy, there’s no such thing as a perfect relationship. That’s the main reason Hollywood is behind a screen, because they know what they show is not real, and they know what they say is never and could never happen in the real world. This isn’t the only thing Hollywood has shown us though; they are also the main culprit in giving the jock his abusive power base. In movies Hollywood likes to show the jock in a almost “superhero” way instead of showing the jock in his chauvinist, apathetic, sexist way that it exists in high schools. This, more than anything, is the thing that disillusions high school girls in believing the jock is the “perfect” guy. In my opinion, Hollywood should be called into account for everything they have done to America’s youth. All over TV I see “what’s happened to America’s youth?” I’ll tell them what has happened, Hollywood happened. With Hollywood’s “superhero” portrait of modern day jocks, no wonder girl’s are desperate enough to give oral sex just for a boyfriend. We’re not any more immoral or any worse than generations before us, Hollywood is. In the same way Hollywood has reinforced the idea that the jock is the “alpha male” in high schools. So right here, I am calling out Hollywood for all they have done to today’s youth, and if your brave enough maybe you can take responsibility in sending America down the tube.

Section 4: The Jock Strikes Back
With Hollywood’s blatant reinforcement of the Jock’s “alpha male” attitude the jock now feels like he is above everyone else, and that he can get anything he wants, and he knows that so many girls want him he can do anything he wants and they will always come crawling back. So this is the number one reason why girl’s can’t expect a real relationship with the stereotypical jock, although I admit there are a very few exceptions to the rule. The jock now knows he can get any girl he wants, and that’s why I laugh when a girl walks around saying “Oh my gosh, he’s the perfect guy, he’s so hot.” If he is a regular jock, he’ll leave her in a couple months if she lucky. A jock can’t stick with one girl, because he knows that he can have anyone he wants so in his mind she’ll just get old, and he’ll throw her in the trash like last year’s fashions. Like I said earlier though, Hollywood has made the jock so popular that she’ll just crawl back like a wounded dog, and they’ll just go through the same cycle over and over. What’s so sad though, is that girls are so blinded by the “perfect guy” or should I say the “perfect jock” that they never notice the other guys that try so hard to impress them with genuine feelings of love. Instead they would rather have the fake relationship with the jock, instead of the true, mutual relationship with the less popular guy. This happens so much sometimes I want to scream out, “Don’t you see there are other guys that have genuine feelings for you!? Are you going to throw that all away for that star football player? Are you willing to sacrifice a meaningful relationship for maybe a night of sex?” Unfortunately, most girls wouldn’t listen they don’t want to confront the truth, they want to live in their fantasies about marrying that star quarterback, or that basketball player. When in truth, most of the relationships with jocks consist of one night stands, followed by hurt feelings and in some cases, a family you never intended on having. Now, I’m not saying that all you’d ever get with jocks are nights of sex, but I am saying is that if you notice the less popular person ninety nine point nine percent of the time he won’t want sex, all he’ll want his someone to talk to someone who’d be closer than a friend, I know from personal experience.

Section 5: Those Girls That Don’t Want to Understand
Now, in some cases there are girls who believe that they are the one jock’s want, and no one else will do except a jock. These are usually the girls with low self esteem because they believe that if they had a jock for a boyfriend everyone would like them. Some are so extreme that if someone less than a jock asked them out, they’d laugh and say “you’re not worth my time”. Well, for those of you out there that think this I would like to bring something to your attention “your not worth my time.” Not the other way around. I have compassion for those girls that get “burned” by a jock and realize that they aren’t the only one’s out there, but for girls who sincerely believe only jock’s will bring them happiness, there’s only one thing I will say to them. You are extremely shallow and you are not worth anyone’s time, get a life. That might sound harsh, but if a girl is at the point of ignoring everyone else and worrying just about herself and her social standings, then I have no sympathy for her when she realizes jocks are just all about the same, in that they are uncompassionate, egotistical, hormone driven, jerks.

Section 6: Finale
In final, I want to make the point that I am not trying to call all jocks bad people, but as we know “one bad apple spoils the bunch”. I am also not trying to tell girls to ignore jocks completely; I know some jocks who are very nice people. All I am trying to do is to get girls to notice other people besides jocks, because most of the time those guys who aren’t jocks will want a meaningful, lasting relationship. So like I said in the beginning, this is not a paper asking for sympathy but rather for recognition that we are here too, and not to be so ignored when it comes to things such as relationships, dances, etc. Like one of my close friends once said “When will girls ever realize that we aren’t all jocks and that we can’t all be the perfect guy, and that some of us actually want a meaningful relationship?” I hope that this paper has shown that there are other guys out in the world who wish to love you sincerely and truly if you would only show them the respect and “time of day” they deserve.

Ok, substitute cheerleaders for jocks and female pronouns for male pronouns and you can see another side of the story. It works both ways.

How many of those guys actively want you(Aka, don't have people higher on their ladder that they are going for/have, etc)? Do they all know they have no chance with you?

I'd say none of them know they don't have a chance (a few have the chance, but I think they have people higher up on their ladder). I may be a bitch, but not enough of a bitch to tell every guy I know that he has no chance with me.

I'd say none of them know they don't have a chance (a few have the chance, but I think they have people higher up on their ladder). I may be a bitch, but not enough of a bitch to tell every guy I know that he has no chance with me.

Look at it this way.

Jack wants to get with you, have sex with you, etc.

You know he does.

You don't want to have sex with him.

You want him to stay your friend.

So you lead him on, not making it clear in the slightest that you aren't interested in him. You do this, because you know he wouldn't be as into you if he knew he had no chance.

[Edit: And, to be fair, he has to make some sort of move. As in, cuddling(leads IW's on), going on things he could consider a date, without him knowing its not, etc.]

If you answered yes to all of this, then yet, I would characterize you as a bitch. But I don't think most girls knowingly lead on guys like that. Ladder theory isn;t about thinking women are evil, its about explaining women's(and mens) desicions about getting together, etc.

Hate to say it, but its because you're one of "them". Yeah, I can tell you really hate to call me a bitch.

I read the site faqs and stopped right there. Here are some little gems:




I can't be bothered to go to all that trouble. What's a quick and easy way to get all the ladies wanting a piece of me?
Act like an asshole. But act like a FUNNY asshole, cause otherwise nobody will forgive you for being one.

Try and push her limits but don't go over the top. Piss her off enough - but not enough to hate you and avoid you completely. Women apparently want assholes! Alright! How I love stupid generalisations!



99.99999% of women are NOT bitches. You're an evil chauvinistic bastard! How dare you call us anything other than angels?
Yes, we know. 99.9999% is a little exaggerated. It's more like 99%. The ladder theory might be nicer than this, but you know what? I'm not going to read something you've presented to us as being espoused by a forum that says something like this...and actually means it. Oh, but this one is even more endearing:


I'm a woman and I disagree totally with the ladder theory.
Either:

A) You're sinfully ugly.
B) You're too young to be here. Grow up.

or

C) You're painfully dense and chronically short-sighted. We can't help you here. So sorry.

If you believe none of the above are correct, formulate your own theory and then we'll listen to you.I love the smell of misogyny in the morning.

Yeah, I can tell you really hate to call me a bitch.

I read the site faqs and stopped right there. Here are some little gems:

Women apparently want assholes! Alright! How I love stupid generalisations!

The ladder theory might be nicer than this, but you know what? I'm not going to read something you've presented to us as being espoused by a forum that says something like this...and actually means it. Oh, but this one is even more endearing:

I love the smell of misogyny in the morning.

I didn't mean a bitch, I meant a woman. I don't know you well enough to call you a bitch.

If you are going to dismiss a theory, you have to read it. The short version is always less informative. As to the quoted part there, Ladder theory refers to them as "outlaw bikers". I'm not going to explain it, because you are going to pick apart my words, and I cannot do as good of a job explaining it as the author of ladder theory.

The author of the theory is cynical. Most people on the forums, afaik, agree that not 99% of girls are bitches. Again, if you refuse to read the theory, which isn't a long read, then you have no right to talk about it being flawed. Thats incredibly ignorant.

I didn't mean a bitch, I meant a woman. I don't know you well enough to call you a bitch.

If you are going to dismiss a theory, you have to read it. The short version is always less informative. As to the quoted part there, Ladder theory refers to them as "outlaw bikers". I'm not going to explain it, because you are going to pick apart my words, and I cannot do as good of a job explaining it as the author of ladder theory.

The author of the theory is cynical. Most people on the forums, afaik, agree that not 99% of girls are bitches. Again, if you refuse to read the theory, which isn't a long read, then you have no right to talk about it being flawed. Thats incredibly ignorant.
So is the theory.

According to the theory, women care more about money (50% on their 'rating system') than any other quality a man may possess. This of course is based on 'years of field testing'. I'd like to see the actual research behind this. Oh wait, apparently there isn't any. It's based on the sour grapes of the author. This isn't all that flattering to guys either...men apparently care mostly (60%) about looks, then next about how quickly a woman will put out (30%), then whatever other things he might like.

This entire 'theory' is a load of shit. Not based on facts...not based on actual research. I've read it. I guess that gives me the right to state it is incredibly subjective and flawed.

I love the following quotes:
I think is very very close to a final analysis of how a woman's rating system works. If you are very attractive, rich, and novel and show no interest in her she is almost guaranteed to want to fuck you. Of course, we are talking about 99% of women here. Not quite all of them...there is always a bit of room for error, right?:rolleyes:

And in his 'answers to common questions':

Criticism:You're just bitter.

Answer:Maybe I am. But ladder theory made me that way, my bitterness did not make ladder theory. Attack the theory, not the person behind it. And why does everyone always say I'm bitter just because 99.999% of chicks are bitches?

Criticism: Do you expect to get laid when you have this whole site devoted to how much you hate women?

Answer:First off, this is a forum for my narcissism. As to hatred of women -- if that's what you think then you are clearly projecting your guilt about being a bitch onto me. Not a single woman who wasn't a bitch has ever complained about misogyny at this site. I can prove this on an abacus.
All I can say is...I can't take this guy, or his theory seriously. And I suspect that on normal days, he doesn't either. Either than or he is a very sad...sad person. And so are those that actually think they can 'learn' something from this bullshit.

Are you serious or is the site just satire?
Nothing is just satire.
So he's kind of kidding. Like how people make racist jokes, but don't actually mean it.

I was never too impressed with Ladder "Theory" myself.

Although he's got a point, 99% of women are bitches. And 99% of men are jerks. But that's not a theory, that's misanthropy. (And realism. :p )

So is the theory.

I think any theory which claims to hold the key to understanding the entire human relationship process is more than a little dubious, myself.

I'll stick to my idea.

So is the theory.

According to the theory, women care more about money (50% on their 'rating system') than any other quality a man may possess. This of course is based on 'years of field testing'. I'd like to see the actual research behind this. Oh wait, apparently there isn't any. It's based on the sour grapes of the author. This isn't all that flattering to guys either...men apparently care mostly (60%) about looks, then next about how quickly a woman will put out (30%), then whatever other things he might like.

This entire 'theory' is a load of shit. Not based on facts...not based on actual research. I've read it. I guess that gives me the right to state it is incredibly subjective and flawed.

I love the following quotes:
Of course, we are talking about 99% of women here. Not quite all of them...there is always a bit of room for error, right?:rolleyes:

And in his 'answers to common questions':

All I can say is...I can't take this guy, or his theory seriously. And I suspect that on normal days, he doesn't either. Either than or he is a very sad...sad person. And so are those that actually think they can 'learn' something from this bullshit.

Its not based on studies, no. But I have yet to see evidence against it, either. I have seen and heard much anedoctal research, which I believe he means by field testing, etc. I have seen and heard the theory to be true so often, and rarely, if ever, wrong.

Its not flattering. Who said it it? Its not meant to be. Granted, the ratings are possibly skewed, a number of people disagree with it, but its pretty close to the truth. Why do you disagree?

You do have the right to state it, but you show little evidence, yet much balking. Most people at least try to show where its wrong, you havn't even done that yet.

You don't seem to like it on a personal, emotional level. I have yet to hear, from you or anyone, convincing evidence, anedoctal or not, that the theory is flawed.

Its not based on studies, no. But I have yet to see evidence against it, either. I have seen and heard much anedoctal research, which I believe he means by field testing, etc. I have seen and heard the theory to be true so often, and rarely, if ever, wrong. You've never seen evidence against it. So no one has conducted a study to disprove an opinion? MY GOD!

As for evidence...try looking around you with less biased eyes. If you truly believe this theory, every single act is going to reinfoce it, because you want it to.

Its not flattering. Who said it it? Its not meant to be. Granted, the ratings are possibly skewed, a number of people disagree with it, but its pretty close to the truth. Why do you disagree? Because it's bullshit. That's my opinion, based on years of field research. Oooh...who you gonna believe now?

You do have the right to state it, but you show little evidence, yet much balking. Most people at least try to show where its wrong, you havn't even done that yet. I'm not going to waste my time. This guy has his opinion. I afford it exactly the merit it deserves. *silence*

You don't seem to like it on a personal, emotional level. I have yet to hear, from you or anyone, convincing evidence, anedoctal or not, that the theory is flawed.
No point in trying to convince you otherwise. You seem too enamoured of this little unproven, anecdotal theory. Besides, the theory has built in rebuttals like, "If you don't agree it's because you're a bitch" or "if you don't agree it's because you're lying".

I love how you've presented a crackpot theory, and are defending it so staunchly because no one has 'proven it wrong'. No one has proven the ZOG wrong either. But it's still the mad dream of morons.

In theory, your paper holds many truths, yes, but I'm going to have to disagree with some parts. For instance, on your proposed social ladder, I am probably so low that I'm not even on it, as I'm known for being completely anti social. Now, it's not because I'm socially inept, shy, or depressed for that matter... I have my own reasons for staying completely in the shadows. But I'm digressing from my point, for I am going to state something I myself have found to be true. The dumb jock, the dopes that are all brawn and looks and no brains, are the easiest people in High School to control. I have controled and manipulated so many of those idiots throughout my life very easily, and I didn't do it with threats, muscle, or even my often imposing height of 6'6", I did so by outwhiting them and destroying their egos with pure words. Here is a list of Ashlavar's secrets to putting the reins on your jock bully and his "omghott" girlfriend.

Number 1 - Make him or her dependant to you

You can easily manipulate the half whit into doing your will by making him your dependant. Say, for instance, the dolt is failing a class and he or she is getting desperate.... He or she comes to you for answers (assuming you're considered a quiet brainy kid like me). Now they've instantly walked into your snare... If you help them once, they'll come back for more.... It's like a carrot on a stick. Soon, you'll have the dope protecting you for homework answers. All this time as well, you're screwing his future, as that's going to become his nature, a nature that's not going to fly in College.

Number 2 - Destroy their egos

The greatest why to break a person is to break their self esteem. Anywhere from snickering when they get a problem miserably wrong, or rubbing comments they make in their faces. Humble the person in everyway you can, pretty soon, they'll be more depressed than a goth and they'll just stay away from you.

Number 3 - Stoop lower, forget what character education says

Anything they do to you, you can go lower... Keep that in mind. Now, I try to avoid using this tactic as I have to pray avidly later when my concince whacks me with a 2x4 after I do it, but I'll tell you anyway. Say absolutely cruel things to them in the hallways.... Make the girlfriends cry.... Get an all American jock to be a manic depressive.... Come accross as the meanest evil genius to ever walk this world. Remember, I try to avoid this one as the Holy Spirit kept me up at night the few times I did it.

Number 4 - Get his woman on your side

The easiest way to an animal's brain is through its mate. Now, I have done this maybe twice, as it can be hard to do. But what you do is you act like the nicest guy in the world to his girlfriend.... Complement her, treat her well... But by no means hit on her... If she's on your side, Mr. Letterman's jacket will leave you alone.

Now, here's my disclaimer... All of these have worked for me... I make no gaurntees that they will work for you...... Keep in mind, I make sure that I'm feared at my High School as the tall, mean, pale, guy who doesn't give a rat's ass about most people.... It helps if you have that reputation.

[/FONT]ok to all guys...nice girls r usually bigger...u kno fluffy...so lets work on that? dont b afraid of us...but it is harder to be the nice girl than the mean girl...hence the reason more mean girls r out there...look for the social outcasts men ull get :fluffle: but dont go out for that reasdon...cuz then ud b scum and make one more possible lesbian

I frankly don't care that I don't have a girlfriend and that I only have 3 real friends.... I don't go to school to be a friend, I go to school to learn and get a future... That's also something people have to learn.

[/FONT]ok to all guys...nice girls r usually bigger...u kno fluffy...so lets work on that? dont b afraid of us...but it is harder to be the nice girl than the mean girl...hence the reason more mean girls r out there...look for the social outcasts men ull get :fluffle: but dont go out for that reasdon...cuz then ud b scum and make one more possible lesbian

Uh, the thing I dread about you already is this post.

You've never seen evidence against it. So no one has conducted a study to disprove an opinion? MY GOD!

As for evidence...try looking around you with less biased eyes. If you truly believe this theory, every single act is going to reinfoce it, because you want it to.

Because it's bullshit. That's my opinion, based on years of field research. Oooh...who you gonna believe now?
I'm not going to waste my time. This guy has his opinion. I afford it exactly the merit it deserves. *silence*

No point in trying to convince you otherwise. You seem too enamoured of this little unproven, anecdotal theory. Besides, the theory has built in rebuttals like, "If you don't agree it's because you're a bitch" or "if you don't agree it's because you're lying".

I love how you've presented a crackpot theory, and are defending it so staunchly because no one has 'proven it wrong'. No one has proven the ZOG wrong either. But it's still the mad dream of morons.

*sigh* Sinuhue, I've been around for a long time on these boards. If you are going to treat me like some ten post noob, whats the point? Don't you think that I have some clue of what I'm saying, and some reasoning behind it?

Not all evidence is studies, etc. Like I've been saying, I've not even heard convincing anedoctal evidence against the theory. I've heard nothing convincing against it. You are playing semantics.

I only found ladder theory a couple years ago, probably less. But when I first read it, it applied to everything I had seen before, and I could see it in everything after. I wasn't biased before I read the theory, yet I saw how it all applied. I also have talked to lots of people, and those who are new to the theory(guys, that is), seem to find it true as well. I have a bias towards it because I saw it to be true, not because I want it to be.

"Because its bullshit". If you are seriously going to argue with arguments like that, don't expect me, or anybody, to take you seriously. Field research is a fancy way of saying "what I've seen". Again, semantics.

"I'm not going to waste the time". Again, you refuse to argue against it, yet profusely deny it, when so many people agree with it. I have seen other topics you posted in, you seemed to me like a decent poster. Yet you simply refuse to intelligently argue a point, and get into an emotional fit, to be blunt. How do you expect people to take you seriously, when you refuse to back up your points?

I don't need it to be proved wrong to every possible degree. I'm an atheist, I'm used to not believing things. But you have yet to give me anything to doubt the theory. All you have done is repetedly call it bullshit and similar names. You have yet to give me anything at all, to cast the theory in doubt. Instead of just assuming I'm going to not listen, why don't you intelligently argue a point, and try me? Because anyone can do the same thing you are doing, to any theory. I could do it to the theory of gravity, and have the same standing you do right now. You simply have given nothing except emotional outbursts. Why are you even bothering?

In theory, your paper holds many truths, yes, but I'm going to have to disagree with some parts. For instance, on your proposed social ladder, I am probably so low that I'm not even on it, as I'm known for being completely anti social. Now, it's not because I'm socially inept, shy, or depressed for that matter... I have my own reasons for staying completely in the shadows. But I'm digressing from my point, for I am going to state something I myself have found to be true. The dumb jock, the dopes that are all brawn and looks and no brains, are the easiest people in High School to control. I have controled and manipulated so many of those idiots throughout my life very easily, and I didn't do it with threats, muscle, or even my often imposing height of 6'6", I did so by outwhiting them and destroying their egos with pure words. Here is a list of Ashlavar's secrets to putting the reins on your jock bully and his "omghott" girlfriend.

Number 1 - Make him or her dependant to you

You can easily manipulate the half whit into doing your will by making him your dependant. Say, for instance, the dolt is failing a class and he or she is getting desperate.... He or she comes to you for answers (assuming you're considered a quiet brainy kid like me). Now they've instantly walked into your snare... If you help them once, they'll come back for more.... It's like a carrot on a stick. Soon, you'll have the dope protecting you for homework answers. All this time as well, you're screwing his future, as that's going to become his nature, a nature that's not going to fly in College.

Number 2 - Destroy their egos

The greatest why to break a person is to break their self esteem. Anywhere from snickering when they get a problem miserably wrong, or rubbing comments they make in their faces. Humble the person in everyway you can, pretty soon, they'll be more depressed than a goth and they'll just stay away from you.

Number 3 - Stoop lower, forget what character education says

Anything they do to you, you can go lower... Keep that in mind. Now, I try to avoid using this tactic as I have to pray avidly later when my concince whacks me with a 2x4 after I do it, but I'll tell you anyway. Say absolutely cruel things to them in the hallways.... Make the girlfriends cry.... Get an all American jock to be a manic depressive.... Come accross as the meanest evil genius to ever walk this world. Remember, I try to avoid this one as the Holy Spirit kept me up at night the few times I did it.

Number 4 - Get his woman on your side

The easiest way to an animal's brain is through its mate. Now, I have done this maybe twice, as it can be hard to do. But what you do is you act like the nicest guy in the world to his girlfriend.... Complement her, treat her well... But by no means hit on her... If she's on your side, Mr. Letterman's jacket will leave you alone.

Now, here's my disclaimer... All of these have worked for me... I make no gaurntees that they will work for you...... Keep in mind, I make sure that I'm feared at my High School as the tall, mean, pale, guy who doesn't give a rat's ass about most people.... It helps if you have that reputation.

Number one: You're doing his homework. Sounds to me like he's the one manipulating you. I've never had to worry about being beat up at school, and don't know anybody who has, except for wannabee gang bangers, etc. If you like doing double homework, have fun.

Number two: You may percieve them to be deeply depressed, but honestly, its probably temporary. These "dumb jocks" seem to have plenty of fun on their own time, and don't seem to dwell over things like getting problems wrong.

Number three: Maybe you do need to worry about getting beat up, if you are acting like a jackass to people like that. I think you need to take a good look at why you are so angry at the world.

Number four: You are consciously making yourself an IW. Wow.

I don't understand why you are such a mean, angry person. You get pleasure out of making others sad. Thats really pathetic.

*sigh* Sinuhue, I've been around for a long time on these boards. If you are going to treat me like some ten post noob, whats the point? Don't you think that I have some clue of what I'm saying, and some reasoning behind it?

Not all evidence is studies, etc. Like I've been saying, I've not even heard convincing anedoctal evidence against the theory. I've heard nothing convincing against it. You are playing semantics.

I only found ladder theory a couple years ago, probably less. But when I first read it, it applied to everything I had seen before, and I could see it in everything after. I wasn't biased before I read the theory, yet I saw how it all applied. I also have talked to lots of people, and those who are new to the theory(guys, that is), seem to find it true as well. I have a bias towards it because I saw it to be true, not because I want it to be.

"Because its bullshit". If you are seriously going to argue with arguments like that, don't expect me, or anybody, to take you seriously. Field research is a fancy way of saying "what I've seen". Again, semantics.

"I'm not going to waste the time". Again, you refuse to argue against it, yet profusely deny it, when so many people agree with it. I have seen other topics you posted in, you seemed to me like a decent poster. Yet you simply refuse to intelligently argue a point, and get into an emotional fit, to be blunt. How do you expect people to take you seriously, when you refuse to back up your points?

I don't need it to be proved wrong to every possible degree. I'm an atheist, I'm used to not believing things. But you have yet to give me anything to doubt the theory. All you have done is repetedly call it bullshit and similar names. You have yet to give me anything at all, to cast the theory in doubt. Instead of just assuming I'm going to not listen, why don't you intelligently argue a point, and try me? Because anyone can do the same thing you are doing, to any theory. I could do it to the theory of gravity, and have the same standing you do right now. You simply have given nothing except emotional outbursts. Why are you even bothering?
*sigh* Chellis, you are giving me an impossible task. You want me to refute anecdotal evidence with anecdotal evidence. Do you see why I refuse such a pointless effort? I can give you thousands of stories that refute this theory. But that will not mean you'll consider my anecdotes to outweigh the other anecdotes you've heard. Frankly, I don't have the energy to try to disprove something that doesn't bother to use facts...much less try to disprove it with more un-facts.

Here's the bottom line, a biological fact if you will. When men look for mates, they are looking for women who are attractive (i.e. healthy which increases the chances of healthy offspring), intelligent, but not too intelligent, competent in areas that will support, but not compete with men. When women look for mates, they are looking for men who are attractive (i.e. healthy), strong, competent, intelligent so that they can provide resources (including genetic resources) for any offspring. In general, the most attractive, intelligent, strong, competent, healthy people gravitate to each other.

You know the problem with many so-called nice guys? They're really assholes who don't even try to go for a girl and expect girls to fall into their laps and then get pissed off when they don't have any girls. Yeah, it may seem that it's the really big assholes who have girls all the time, but they approach women. Try it sometimes.

Here's the bottom line, a biological fact if you will. When men look for mates, they are looking for women who are attractive (i.e. healthy which increases the chances of healthy offspring), intelligent, but not too intelligent, competent in areas that will support, but not compete with men. When women look for mates, they are looking for men who are attractive (i.e. healthy), strong, competent, intelligent so that they can provide resources (including genetic resources) for any offspring. In general, the most attractive, intelligent, strong, competent, healthy people gravitate to each other.
Thank goodness we've got that sorted out. Now we can go back to mindlessly following our biological urges. Oddly enough, those include polyamorous relationships. Woohoo!

Here's the bottom line, a biological fact if you will. When men look for mates, they are looking for women who are attractive (i.e. healthy which increases the chances of healthy offspring), intelligent, but not too intelligent, competent in areas that will support, but not compete with men. When women look for mates, they are looking for men who are attractive (i.e. healthy), strong, competent, intelligent so that they can provide resources (including genetic resources) for any offspring. In general, the most attractive, intelligent, strong, competent, healthy people gravitate to each other.

*In Lewis Black voice* So I'm Screwed! Whoohooo!

Look at it this way.

Jack wants to get with you, have sex with you, etc.

You know he does.

You don't want to have sex with him.

You want him to stay your friend.

So you lead him on, not making it clear in the slightest that you aren't interested in him. You do this, because you know he wouldn't be as into you if he knew he had no chance.

[Edit: And, to be fair, he has to make some sort of move. As in, cuddling(leads IW's on), going on things he could consider a date, without him knowing its not, etc.]

If you answered yes to all of this, then yet, I would characterize you as a bitch. But I don't think most girls knowingly lead on guys like that. Ladder theory isn;t about thinking women are evil, its about explaining women's(and mens) desicions about getting together, etc.

Ah. Now I understand. I'm a "bitch" because HE wants to sleep with ME, and he's too stupid to understand I don't want to sleep with him. Why isn't it his fault? If I cuddle with a guy do I "owe" him sex? Cuddling isn't always sexual. It's basically to show affection. But if a guy is too stupid to understand that and has such a large ego that he thinks everything is a come on, no wonder he doesn't get any.

Panda eats shoots and leaves

Ah. Now I understand. I'm a "bitch" because HE wants to sleep with ME, and he's too stupid to understand I don't want to sleep with him. Why isn't it his fault? If I cuddle with a guy do I "owe" him sex? Cuddling isn't always sexual. It's basically to show affection. But if a guy is too stupid to understand that and has such a large ego that he thinks everything is a come on, no wonder he doesn't get any.

No, you're not a "bitch". It's just the way you are.

Men aren't programmed to cuddle until they get older. Try over 40.

Any cuddling before that, and the guy is just being crafty - biding his time until he either figures you're not going to ever have sex with him, or until you have sex.

It's not that "everything is a comeon". There have been plenty of women I dated when younger who were obviously "coming on" (someone saying that they wish they could get me alone and fuck me is pretty obvious) and then couldn't bring themselves to do it. Didn't want to "ruin the friendship".

With men, especially younger men, it's better not to cross the signals. Changing your mind back and forth is the equivalent of chewing up an automobile transmission by shifting badly.

You know the problem with many so-called nice guys? They're really assholes who don't even try to go for a girl and expect girls to fall into their laps and then get pissed off when they don't have any girls. Yeah, it may seem that it's the really big assholes who have girls all the time, but they approach women. Try it sometimes.
Dakini, when I was younger, it took some time to realize which girls to approach. With some of them, it's not worth the time to say "hello". And I'm not talking about getting laid - I'm talking about even getting to know them.

Learned a long time ago how to spot the crazies, the bitches, and the liars (yes, just like men, there are crazies, assholes, and liars).

Approaching women is one thing - but since women are individuals, it's either worth the effort or it's not.

In theory, your paper holds many truths, yes, but I'm going to have to disagree with some parts. For instance, on your proposed social ladder, I am probably so low that I'm not even on it, as I'm known for being completely anti social. Now, it's not because I'm socially inept, shy, or depressed for that matter... I have my own reasons for staying completely in the shadows. But I'm digressing from my point, for I am going to state something I myself have found to be true. The dumb jock, the dopes that are all brawn and looks and no brains, are the easiest people in High School to control. I have controled and manipulated so many of those idiots throughout my life very easily, and I didn't do it with threats, muscle, or even my often imposing height of 6'6", I did so by outwhiting them and destroying their egos with pure words. Here is a list of Ashlavar's secrets to putting the reins on your jock bully and his "omghott" girlfriend.

Number 1 - Make him or her dependant to you

You can easily manipulate the half whit into doing your will by making him your dependant. Say, for instance, the dolt is failing a class and he or she is getting desperate.... He or she comes to you for answers (assuming you're considered a quiet brainy kid like me). Now they've instantly walked into your snare... If you help them once, they'll come back for more.... It's like a carrot on a stick. Soon, you'll have the dope protecting you for homework answers. All this time as well, you're screwing his future, as that's going to become his nature, a nature that's not going to fly in College.

Number 2 - Destroy their egos

The greatest why to break a person is to break their self esteem. Anywhere from snickering when they get a problem miserably wrong, or rubbing comments they make in their faces. Humble the person in everyway you can, pretty soon, they'll be more depressed than a goth and they'll just stay away from you.

Number 3 - Stoop lower, forget what character education says

Anything they do to you, you can go lower... Keep that in mind. Now, I try to avoid using this tactic as I have to pray avidly later when my concince whacks me with a 2x4 after I do it, but I'll tell you anyway. Say absolutely cruel things to them in the hallways.... Make the girlfriends cry.... Get an all American jock to be a manic depressive.... Come accross as the meanest evil genius to ever walk this world. Remember, I try to avoid this one as the Holy Spirit kept me up at night the few times I did it.

Number 4 - Get his woman on your side

The easiest way to an animal's brain is through its mate. Now, I have done this maybe twice, as it can be hard to do. But what you do is you act like the nicest guy in the world to his girlfriend.... Complement her, treat her well... But by no means hit on her... If she's on your side, Mr. Letterman's jacket will leave you alone.

Now, here's my disclaimer... All of these have worked for me... I make no gaurntees that they will work for you...... Keep in mind, I make sure that I'm feared at my High School as the tall, mean, pale, guy who doesn't give a rat's ass about most people.... It helps if you have that reputation.
wow. you sound like a thoroughly nasty person. good not knowing you.

ever heard of kantian ethics? i suggest you read up.

Panda eats shoots and leaves :)

This thread is really pointless.

It's idiotic and stupid to generalize all the girls in the American high school system based on a few people's experience at one. I have had a completely different experience at my fairly normal small town public high school. What's going on here is whining and stereotyping.

My experience shows that the "nice girls" so many people are bitching about here are the unattractive or overweight ones that hormonal guys won't day since they're so fixated on sex at that stage of their life.

Now, that doesn't mean the nice guy needs to have a really, really tough time. Just become the bad guy. Treat girls with a little less respect; don't fawn over them. Be interesting. Be mysterious. Force it. It will become natural after a while.
That was basically me: the really nice, polite, well brought up kid. I'll be honest, I didn't kiss a girl until the summer going into my sophmore year. But things have changed considerably. And I'm sure you could do the same.


I will say this all of once, and everyone can take it how they will. Someone who is truly a "nice guy" rather than just shy and unconfident will never do this. Speaking only for myself, I would rather have only friendships my whole life than lower myself to behavior I find reprehensible. Anybody who requires me to act other than I am flat out does not deserve me. This is not a conclusion I reached on my own, but rather one that damn near every woman I've ever known has beat into my head.

I am so sick of people who whine about being nice. I'm a nice guy. I get plenty of dates. People who whine about being nice are usually not nice at all.

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml

I am so sick of people who whine about being nice. I'm a nice guy. I get plenty of dates. People who whine about being nice are usually not nice at all.

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml

Thank you for that link...that helps me expand my personal philosophy. Nice people attract/are unwillingly attracted to cruel abusive headcases. Why? It's in their nature. I would like to point out one thing though. I have known one person who was confident and self assured and still a genuinely nice person. He still ended up with a total wackjob of a wife. I won't go into the relationship histories of most of my female friends, except to say that I prefer being single to what they put themselves through. As someone posted earlier, if you're not going to act in a way that attracts people, you had better learn to like being single. I will add to that and state if you act in a way that attracts abusive terrible people (male or female) you are better off being single.

Wayne Gretzky: Nice Guy, Finished First, Kills Your Theory!

I think by "nice guy" he means guys without anysort of discernable talent or thing that might make a woman attracted to him.

Good ol' Wayne happened to work hard his entire life to become a superstar, so I guess he doesn't really count, we're talking about people who got the shit side in live and are too lazy to work their way out of it.

I think by "nice guy" he means guys without anysort of discernable talent or thing that might make a woman attracted to him.

Good ol' Wayne happened to work hard his entire life to become a superstar, so I guess he doesn't really count, we're talking about people who got the shit side in live and are too lazy to work their way out of it.

Then he should have said "Pathetic, Ambitionless Slobs Finish Last". Which ought to be true.

It's not really like that at my high school. Sure, there are cliques, and some semblance of a hierarchy, but it doesn't seem nearly so rigid and structured like it seems to be in other schools. The jocks certainly don't have great social power over the rest of us, at least as far as I can see. Similarly, being a cheerleader doesn't automatically make you popular.

I really love threads like this.

I may be depressed and alone, but at least I don't run around like a jackass blaming half of the world's population for my problems and arguing with random people on the internet for absolutely no reason at all. I realize one thing: if I am having a problem that the majority of the world does not, it's probably not them who is at fault.

I feel so much better about myself.

It's not really like that at my high school. Sure, there are cliques, and some semblance of a hierarchy, but it doesn't seem nearly so rigid and structured like it seems to be in other schools. The jocks certainly don't have great social power over the rest of us, at least as far as I can see. Similarly, being a cheerleader doesn't automatically make you popular.
That sounds about right. In my highschool, there were various groups of people, but plenty of mixing occured, and no particular hierarchy was universal. Some people were just louder, and had a larger group of friends, but that doesn't meanthe rest of us regarded them as superior, or paid them much attention either way.

Exactly. Those kind of cliques dissapear as you get older. I'm in my senior year and recognize some of those in the freshman year, but virtually none in my current class.

Nice guy here... also had a tough time when younger and found out that as time goes on many females realize that it sucks going out with self-centered pricks and finally wise up and select someone that will treat them right. Sure it might be lonely during the younger years but eventuall you will find someone worthy of you as you and the girls you want mature.

Nice guy here... also had a tough time when younger and found out that as time goes on many females realize that it sucks going out with self-centered pricks and finally wise up and select someone that will treat them right. Sure it might be lonely during the younger years but eventuall you will find someone worthy of you as you and the girls you want mature.

That's a belief I've held for some time. I'm glad to have someone older back me up on that.

I'm not a jock, but I have to disagree with your description of them. First of all, as any decent human being knows, one bad apple absolutely does not spoil the bunch. Most people who go down that path include Hitler and almost every other homocidal maniac ever to walk the earth. Secondly, Hollywood has done its share to demonize jocks as well as deify them. In many movies, the bad guys and bullies are the sterotypical jocks of which you speak. Third, and most importantly, jocks aren't that hard to get along with. As long as you don't approach them with an openly confrontational attitude like yours, they tend to be good people. Will this help get you girls? Nope, can't help you there. Will it make you a happier and more likeable person? It worked for me.

I'm not a jock, but I have to disagree with your description of them. First of all, as any decent human being knows, one bad apple absolutely does not spoil the bunch. Most people who go down that path include Hitler and almost every other homocidal maniac ever to walk the earth. Secondly, Hollywood has done its share to demonize jocks as well as deify them. In many movies, the bad guys and bullies are the sterotypical jocks of which you speak. Third, and most importantly, jocks aren't that hard to get along with. As long as you don't approach them with an openly confrontational attitude like yours, they tend to be good people. Will this help get you girls? Nope, can't help you there. Will it make you a happier and more likeable person? It worked for me.

Nobody's all that hard to get along with. Enjoying their company is a different issue. That usually comes down to personality dynamics. I'm a gamer geek, and as such enjoy the company of the more intellectual crowd over the athletic crowd. I realize that there is some overlap, but "smart jocks" just tend to piss me off for some reason. No logic to it, they just grate on me.

wow. you sound like a thoroughly nasty person. good not knowing you.

ever heard of kantian ethics? i suggest you read up.

That wasn't directed at me, but I went and read up on Kantian ethics anyway. Good guy, I like him.

Good show mate but there's a lot you've yet to see. Also, your "essay" reflects your viewpoint on the issue very well, but although you express your concept clearly, the vanity and selfish pride involved in your thought process is very obvious as well.

Mind that all girls aren't blonde beauties. Rebuking this while thinking that the rest just aren't worthy is just giving into the same feelings that the "jocks" have. We're all animals in the God-blessed (or Godforsaken if you're a pessimistic deist) universe, and how they feel is just as humane as anyone else. Stereotyping both the jocks and the rocks is OK here since you're attempting to take an objective and moral standpoint on the issue while trying not to be curt or abrupt. Stereotyping for the sake of gathering the information 1 though is not. Doing so compromises your objectivity and makes what your developing vulnerable to emotions and opinions.

Let's say 90% of all people are nice when it comes to the one on one situation 2. Everybody knows that meeting people individually provides a completely different approach than trying to impress the bunch, the group, or the mob. The latter requires rehearsal, tenacity, charisma, and (oh yah, you know it) luck for perfection and lack of the unexpected. Nerds, geeks, dweebs, etc. tend to be not exactly apt at impromptu and just dwell on the what ifs afterwards. Most people, will be honest with you and can have a sense of trust developed with them when you meet them by yourself.

"But those who are suave never get caught in those awkward situations!!"

Comon. You're gonna tell me that they're ALL so lucky NATIONWIDE (or all over the world, take your pick) that they just randomly happen to get stuck like that? First, they have brains too. They understand how to avoid the case where you usually make a fool outta yourself. Second, they have friends and the balls to go out and make new ones. Surround yourself with friends, and you'll be happier than being without'em. Even Buddhist monks that are always meditating live in a monastery with their devout brothers in study.

1: Of course you gathered information on this separately rather than depending on your own experience 100%, right? Unless this was an assignment for creative writing or psyche, I'd mark pts off for lack of resources; mind you I'm a H.S. senior as well.

2: What's nice? Where'd that %age come from? Comon, just be nice and let me use a nice # as a given. Trust me!

Thx Kreitzmoorland, but the thread is long so I thought a new one would grab more attention.

I'm not going to flame here with some long ass rebuttal speech, so if this hasn't inspired a response, maybe my sig will. Maybe it won't.

Then again, he's not a "Nice Guy".
Yes. Stephen Hawking is a witty, intelligent and confident guy. That's what makes him attractive, presumably.

He didn't sit around in his wheelchair bemoaning how useless he is and how he would never get any attention. Hence, he ended up with a woman.

That's the problem with a lot of "nice guys". It's easy to whinge, but it doesn't get you anywhere. If you truly are a nice person with qualities that others may find attractive, you will probably end up with someone sooner or later. If you sit around bitching about not being able to get laid, you get nothing. I may be cold, but in my experience, that's how things work. I was one of those idiots once, and it only served to turn people away.

True!

Ok, I'm not trying to get a "holier than thou" attitude. But, this thread has turned into a bunch a whining people debating over things that have nothing to do with what I originally posted...anyway, I understand everyone's opinion that disagrees with me, but where I live, what I wrote is no less than 85% true. Now, I realize that doesn't apply everywhere, but as many people here say "You don't know what your talking about" I have gotten just as many TG's saying the exact opposite. So, all I am saying, don't say I'm wrong, because I'm not, instead if you want to say something, say It's different where you live.

I thought this thread was about Finland.

I thought this thread was about Finland.

No, you're thinking of Denmark.

i think nice guys rock. and if they are nice and smart.... excellent!

i think nice guys rock. and if they are nice and smart.... excellent!

That's me baby! lol.

Ah. Now I understand. I'm a "bitch" because HE wants to sleep with ME, and he's too stupid to understand I don't want to sleep with him. Why isn't it his fault? If I cuddle with a guy do I "owe" him sex? Cuddling isn't always sexual. It's basically to show affection. But if a guy is too stupid to understand that and has such a large ego that he thinks everything is a come on, no wonder he doesn't get any.

You certainly seem like one to me, someone who would knowingly lead a guy around, knowing he didn't know you didn't want to be with him. Its not your fault that guys are too "stupid"(This generally happens to smarter people, who tend to be "nice guys"). It becomes your fault, when you exploit their stupidity, to get them to be your friend when they would rather have nothing to do with you if you don't want to be more than friends.

Women SAY they want "nice" guys.

They don't.

But then again, that's because most "nice" guys are anything but.

The fact is that when faced with a choice between bad immoral guys and good decent guys, girls always choose the bad guy over the good.
Real life ain't like the movies.
Women who say they want nice guys are lying cause while they say that, they always pick the bad ones.

But then again, that's because most "nice" guys are anything but.

Truth.

The peremisis of your essay (the steryotypical hyerarchy) doesn't ring true to me- but I havn't been in that many highschools so...

Women SAY they want "nice" guys.

They don't.

But then again, that's because most "nice" guys are anything but.

Very true. A large number of "nice guys" are only that way because they think it will get them a girl. And then there are guys who act nice for a little while, but are really jerks once they get comfortable with someone. Of course, girls are the same way, so most people end up with what they deserve.

Very true. A large number of "nice guys" are only that way because they think it will get them a girl. And then there are guys who act nice for a little while, but are really jerks once they get comfortable with someone. Of course, girls are the same way, so most people end up with what they deserve.
Ha. That's not been my experience. In my experience the women always choose the worse of the bad over the ones who nice. A life long experience of that trumps any attempt to explain it here.
I don't know why they do it, I just know that women, whether consciously or subconsciously (scientists say more like the latter) prefer bad guys.
Maybe its because of the way they're brain neurons are wired or something.

Very true. A large number of "nice guys" are only that way because they think it will get them a girl. And then there are guys who act nice for a little while, but are really jerks once they get comfortable with someone. Of course, girls are the same way, so most people end up with what they deserve.

Then, there are guys like me who've always been really nice. Sometimes too nice.

While I'm really nice in person, I'm not a super-soft, extra-sensitive douche who can be walked all over like a human doormat. I said I'm nice, not stupid. ;)

Then, there are guys like me who've always been really nice. Sometimes too nice.

While I'm really nice in person, I'm not a super-soft, extra-sensitive douche who can be walked all over like a human doormat. I said I'm nice, not stupid. ;)
meh, i'm a doormat to an extent. getting better at it though.

not really thrown into situations where i have to 'defend' myself very much though - thats probably why... lack of experience. i mean, like when you have nothing to defend against you get bad at defending - like yesterday when i was on the way back from the gym and a small gaggle of chavs were walking on the other side of the street looking at me funny and i overhear one of them say "no way, he's massive..." (i was wearing my big coat at the time which makes me look... bigger heh). ok whether they were talking about trying to steal my phone or something i don't know (happens a lot in that part of town) but in that sort of way i never get any trouble. and as a "nice guy" i never go looking for trouble either.
hence its a mixed blessing: never any trouble but no experience when trouble does come your way. meh.

[/rant]

I don't know why they do it, I just know that some women, whether consciously or subconsciously (scientists say more like the latter) prefer bad guys. And vice versa.
Fixed.

edit:

The fact is that when faced with a choice between bad immoral guys and good decent guys, girls always choose the bad guy over the good.
Real life ain't like the movies.
Women who say they want nice guys are lying cause while they say that, they always pick the bad ones.

Women SAY they want "nice" guys.

They don't.
Seriously. Can people stop telling me what the fuck I want, I think, and I do?

Seriously. Can people stop telling me what the fuck I want, I think, and I do?

No. Now get back to your kitchen, woman!

Anybody who requires me to act other than I am flat out does not deserve me.

While there is SOME truth to this, it is also the biggest misconception of the sexual/emotional world. You WILL and SHOULD spend your life acting in a manner than is contrary to your instincts and urges. When you get up in the morning, and you are all bitchy, but you hold your tongue when someone annoys you, that is "acting other than you are ". Thats behaving. Repressing yourself. Giving in to yourself will not endear you to anybody.

Even my cat knows that if shes annoyed, she shouldnt bite me too hard. She holds back. This is key to civility, and even communal animals understand this. You should too.

People think love is what they feel. "oh I love her". NO. Love is how you treat them. Your feelings be damned, they will never know your heart for sure, regardless of your words. Love is how you act. Feelings are just something in your head, chest and loins.

If they make you feel loved, then no matter what they think of you, you are. likewise, it is your duty to make them feel loved. It is something you must strive for, but will never be sure you have achieved.

No. Now get back to your kitchen, woman!
:mad: (kinda funny cos i know you're kidding but i gotta be mad, right? ;-) )

The intelligent, kind, compassionate girls Strawman.
While there is SOME truth to this, it is also the biggest misconception of the sexual/emotional world. You WILL and SHOULD spend your life acting in a manner than is contrary to your instincts and urges. When you get up in the morning, and you are all bitchy, but you hold your tongue when someone annoys you, that is "acting other than you are ". Thats behaving. Repressing yourself. Giving in to yourself will not endear you to anybody. Controlling one's behaviour is a tad different from actually trying to put forward a false personality.

:mad: (kinda funny cos i know you're kidding but i gotta be mad, right? ;-) )
Hey, I should be pretending to be mad but it just made me laugh :p

Then, there are guys like me who've always been really nice. Sometimes too nice.

While I'm really nice in person, I'm not a super-soft, extra-sensitive douche who can be walked all over like a human doormat. I said I'm nice, not stupid. ;)
Given the number of times you've threatened people on this forum, I refuse to believe that you're in any way a nice guy!

:mad: (kinda funny cos i know you're kidding but i gotta be mad, right? ;-) )

Indeed, I understand. I once pretended to like horse-riding and be a vegetarian.

Hey, I should be pretending to be mad but it just made me laugh :p
i know - it made me laugh too, but you know... keeping up appearances and all that jazz ;)

Girls don't want money or cars, they want a man. They don't like 'nice guys' because nice guys lack confidence and are shy and boring ~the opposite defination of what a man is.

Don't blame the girls, blame the guys that don't get it. Oh, okay. So being nice is bad. *beats girlfriend*

Given the number of times you've threatened people on this forum, I refuse to believe that you're in any way a nice guy!

He's nice if you agree with him. :p

Okay, I didn't read all 200+ replies on this thread, so I might get something screwed up here.

Although you claim that there is a hierarchy in HS, you are sort of right and wrong at the same time.

At my school, there are groups that hang out together (preps, jocks, band, goths, punk, emo, ect. ect.) However, unlike the hierarchy you described, each group typically considers itself the elite and better than everyone else. So instead of a pecking order, you just get separate groups that usually don't associate with each other.

. . . except from the point of view of the administrators and teachers, they usually see the preps/jocks as the "elite" and then all the other groups as below them (especially the goths and punk kids). The biggest reason this happens is because the administrators know the families of the prep kids, and the prep kids suck up to the administrators. Also, (at least at my school) athletics is a big thing in the eyes of the community (even though our athletics teams totally suck). So, if you're a top dog on the football team, or your daddy is a coach, then you get special attention and standing in the eyes of the faculty.

BUT, Usually relationships don't happen outside of those groups, so your point that all girls go for the top is completely wrong. Most girls go for the guys in their own group. Similarly, only the jocks go after the cheerleaders.

Usually the reason some (emphasis on SOME) girls go after the toughguys is because those girls are weak-minded and don't have the guts to stand up for themselves. Yes, I seriously think that about alot of the preppy, blonde, ditzy girls contaminating the school. If they actually had half a mind to think on their own, they might realize the reasons that the jock is after them (sex). But of course, they aren't so stupid as to not have their own motives, usually materialistic ones. The average jock usually has a rich family and/or is popular in the community, and so the preppy girls go for that. One convo I overheard between two girls was about how they would never marry a guy unless he gave them a nice, fancy ring. How shallow and materialistic can they get?

But here's the thing, I would never date those girls BECAUSE they are going for the top, and that shows me their true motive. They'll never know the meaning of love, because they'll always be chasing their own selfish desires. So I don't have a problem with not dating a cheerleader, I really don't find them any more than eye candy. I would never want to be friends with them, much less actually get into a relationship with them.

But of course, there are the nice girls that are going to end up with the nice guys, they just won't be rich and famous. So, the nice guys might finish last, but they'll at least still have someone caring and faithful to cross the finish line with. If a guy is going after the cheerleaders, then he's really not a nice guy, he's just as bad as the preppy cheerleaders.

Dear Lord… everyone's bitter here!

Dear Lord… everyone's bitter here!

I am actually very chilled out at moment. It's becoming very difficult to keep typing.

Fixed.

edit:




Seriously. Can people stop telling me what the fuck I want, I think, and I do?
I yet to meet a woman who doesn't lie through her teeth or play mind games. Or manipulate people for her own evil twisted end.

I yet to meet a woman who doesn't lie through her teeth or play mind games. Or manipulate people for her own evil twisted end.
that one doesn't. its what makes her so great... well one reason anyway :P
at least i don't think she does. pretty damn sure she doesn't... but now you got me worrying...
don't care either way :fluffle:
(do care actually, but being 99.9% sure she doesn't with me, i can ergo not care to all extents and purposes)

Now I have to start asking how old you people are. ;)

Basic rules of life and relationships from someone who survived her teens and twenties:

(# 1) People are looking for someone who gives them everything they want/need, without requiring them to give up things they don't want to lose. Period. This applies to both men and women.

(# 2) Everyone has a list of characteristics that they want in an ideal mate, and some items on the list are more important than others, but basically what they want is # 1.

(# 3) Hormones, sex, and beer can either help or hurt your quest, and sometimes both at once. But most people find that they make the best decisions about # 1 when they're sober, sated, and not experiencing PMS.

(# 4) Most people aren't out to hurt anyone. People are primally driven to get their own needs met, and some are so driven that they run right over others in the process. It's just a side effect, not their goal. So don't take rejection so personally.

(# 5) Few people, male or female, date "just for fun." There is almost always a need involved. Sometimes it's # 1, sometimes it's just sex, sometimes it's a rebound, etc. Figure out what the need is, for you and for them, and you'll be much more likely to control your own happiness in the relationship.

(# 6) The happier you are with the rest of your life, the more you'll be able to bring to the relationship, and the more you can offer the person in # 1. Don't overfocus on the relationship. You want a life that includes a relationship, not the reverse. HAVE FUN!!!

:fluffle:

I yet to meet a woman who doesn't lie through her teeth or play mind games. Or manipulate people for her own evil twisted end.
I've yet to meet someone from Australia. Your point?

Your personal experience cannot be used to make a definitive judgement on how all women think and act.

and *hugs* for Huw! you have nothing to fear.
Well, apart from the "interesting" sides of me you already know about ... mwahahaha *wink*

Now I have to start asking how old you people are. ;)
I'm in my mid-thirties. Yay!

And I heartily agree with the rest of your post. Even though #1 sounds a bit cynical, but it's true. In the end one understands that Mr/Ms Right doesn't exist (and we are not a Mr/Ms Right either), but we know what we are willing to negotiate.

Given the number of times you've threatened people on this forum, I refuse to believe that you're in any way a nice guy!

What Kanabia said in response is true. :p

But, there's more to it. If you make a dick out of yourself in front of me (in this case, on a forum), you're on my bad side. I don't take kindly to people who come off as inconsiderate douchebags.

Like I said: I'm genuinely nice. That doesn't mean I'm a human doormat.

As the Good Book says: "The geek shall inherit the earth."

I yet to meet a woman who doesn't lie through her teeth or play mind games. Or manipulate people for her own evil twisted end.
*Mumbles incoherently
"Mellisa...Mellisa...."

*Mumbles incoherently
"Mellisa...Mellisa...."

Is that your trigger word?

Is that your trigger word?
AHHHH! EVIL!

Women are all liars. All that emotional and romantic shit they state is all bullcrap. What a heterosexual woman really wants is an attractive man with a lot of money and a big cock...lesbians want an attractive woman with a lot of money and all sorts of big dildos and other sex toys. And any woman that denies this is ................(you guessed it) A LIAR.



Humanity makes me sick.

Women are all liars. All that emotional and romantic shit they state is all bullcrap. What a heterosexual woman really wants is an attractive man with a lot of money and a big cock...lesbians want an attractive woman with a lot of money and all sorts of big dildos and other sex toys. And any woman that denies this is ................(you guessed it) A LIAR.



Humanity makes me sick.

...

Wow.

<rant>

Pesky man. You amuse me. :p