NationStates Jolt Archive


Iraq War Fallacies

Stern Howard
31-12-2005, 17:30
Iraq War Fallacies
by William F. Jasper
January 9, 2006


Proponents of keeping our soldiers in Iraq repeatedly offer the same rationale for their viewpoint. Here, their most often cited reasons are refuted. [Click here to send online letter to Congress, "Bring Our Soldiers Home From Iraq -- Now!"]

FALLACY: If the United States pulls its troops out of Iraq now, the country will collapse into chaos, civil war, and dictatorship, and will almost certainly end up being ruled by a regime hostile to us.

REBUTTAL: That is certainly possible if we pull out now, but we have no guarantee against that same outcome if we remain in Iraq three more years, 10 more years, or 20 more years, after expending thousands more lives of American soldiers and hundreds of billions more taxpayer dollars. In fact, the current "friendly" regime we have installed is very friendly with Iran, and the growing Baghdad-Tehran axis should be a major concern to all Americans.

When Iran's foreign minister visited Iraq in May of 2005, he was warmly received by Iraqi Prime Minister Ibrahim Jaafari. Mr. Jaafari is a radical Shi'ite Muslim and a disciple of Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini, who, it may be recalled, labeled the United States the "Great Satan," inspired the overthrow of the pro-American Shah of Iran, held our embassy and American citizens hostage, and launched a new age of terror. Prime Minister Jaafari, "our ally" in Iraq, made an historic pilgrimage to Tehran in July 2005, with eight of his cabinet ministers in tow, to lay a wreath on the tomb of Ayatollah Khomeini. Jaafari spent nine years (1980-1989) in Iran, and at Ayatollah Khomeini's behest, became a founding member of the Ayatollah's Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI).

With Shi'ite Muslims comprising 90 percent of Iran's and 60 percent of Iraq's population, and Iraq's pro-Iranian radical Shi'ite "pope," Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, being the most influential religious leader in the country, we are already witnessing the transformation of Iraq into an ally of Iran.

FALLACY: The huge turnout of Iraqi voters in the January and December 2005 election proves President Bush's hopeful vision that this "is the beginning of something new: constitutional democracy at the heart of the Middle East."

REBUTTAL: It "proves" nothing of the sort. Iraq has no history of "democracy," constitutional or otherwise, and it is the height of imperial conceit to expect a couple of elections under a military occupation to change thousands of years of cultural, religious, and political tradition.

Ancient Iraq (formerly known as Mesopotamia) is often referred to as the "cradle of civilization." Yet from the time of the Sumerian empire to the Babylonian, Assyrian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Mongol, and Turkish empires on up to modern times, Iraq has always been under autocratic, dictatorial, or tyrannical rule. For a relatively few brief periods, it has enjoyed relatively benign autocratic rule, but never genuine self-rule and limited, constitutional government. During World War I -- the war to "make the world safe for democracy" -- British troops drove out the Turks and replaced them as Iraq's occupiers.

In 1920, Britain accepted a League of Nations mandate to occupy Iraq and prepare it for independence, under the British-installed King Faisal. Despite 12 years of British occupation (1920-1932), Iraq was then and thereafter regularly in turmoil, suffering assassination, coups, attempted coups, and revolution. All of which is not to say that Iraq will never become a peaceful republic, but to point out how ludicrous it is to suggest that it is on the cusp of doing so.

About the only thing any of the warring factions in Iraq agree on is getting U.S. forces out of Iraq. Independent polls (USA Today/CNN/Gallup poll in April 2004; U.S. Coalition Provisional Authority poll in May 2004; BBC/Oxford Research International poll in December 2005, to cite a few) show that Iraqis of all persuasions -- Sunnis, Shias, Communists, Kurds -- overwhelmingly look unfavorably on the presence of U.S. troops in Iraq, and a majority favor an immediate U.S. pullout. By continuing to stay where we are not wanted, we only assure that we will alienate all sides in this tragic corner of the world.

FALLACY: But we must support democracy if we hope to stop terrorism. As President Bush said in his second Inaugural Address: "So, it is the policy of the United States to seek and support the growth of democratic movements and institutions in every nation and culture, with the ultimate goal of ending tyranny in our world."

REBUTTAL: If "democracy" is our Holy Grail, then President Bush will have to be willing to accept majority votes that may be unpalatable. After all, Venezuela's Communist leader, Hugo Chavez, was democratically elected. As was his pro-terrorist, anti-American Marxist comrade, President Lula de Silva of Brazil. Ditto for Iran's democratically elected President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. And there are the recent victories of the radical Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt's parliamentary elections. Then there's our supposed democratic ally, Pakistan, which supports a multitude of terrorist groups, and whose spy chief, General Mahmoud Ahmad, is implicated as a paymaster for the 9/11 hijackers. The UN General Assembly is filled with democratically elected despots.

We may believe the autocratic monarchical regimes in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan, and Bahrain to be less than ideal, but who can believe that we will benefit if Iranian or Iraqi-style democracy were to sweep jihadist mullahs to power in those countries? Our Iraqi occupation is making that more likely, as each passing day stokes the anti-American fires of the extremist factions.

The United States is not and never was a democracy. Our Founding Fathers, wisely despising democracy as a dangerous fraud, gave us a constitutional republic, which guarantees the rights of all, especially minorities. It subjects us all -- and especially the government -- to the "rule of law," another goal frequently proclaimed by the Bush administration. However, the U.S. Constitution provides no authority for the president or Congress to establish global democracy or "end tyranny" throughout the world, even if it were possible to do so. Bush's attempts to do so are a gross usurpation of power and blatant violation of the rule of law he claims to desire to promote.

"America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy," said President John Quincy Adams. "She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own."

FALLACY: We must not lose our resolve because of setbacks and casualties; we must "stay the course" in the war against terror.

REBUTTAL: Stay which course? And for how long, and to what end, and at what cost? We have been the victims of a gigantic, serial bait-and-switch scam, with constantly changing goals and definitions. In the aftermath of the 9/11 terror attacks, the American public rightly supported military attacks on those responsible. The Bush administration made a generally acceptable case for pinning culpability on Osama bin Laden and for attacking al-Qaeda's bases in Afghanistan, as well as the ruling Taliban regime in Afghanistan.

However, after gaining approval and momentum for the Afghan invasion, the Bush administration and the foreign policy elites repeatedly misled and lied to the American people in order to expand the "war on terror" to include Iraq. After failing to provide any evidence to back its insinuations that Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein was behind the 9/11 attacks, the administration shifted gears: Saddam was a future terror threat who was amassing a huge arsenal of Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMDs). We were in imminent danger, we were told, of nuclear or biological weapon attacks by Saddam's agents or terrorist surrogates. Saddam must be removed immediately.

Saddam was removed. U.S. forces demolished his regime within three weeks of landing on Iraqi soil. Saddam has been captured, his sons killed, and most of the rest of his cabal of despotic, sadistic megalomaniacs killed or captured. However, after turning the country upside down, no WMDs or WMD program could be discovered. Instead of declaring "mission accomplished" and bringing our troops home, the administration changed the U.S. goal in Iraq to one of national reconstruction and establishing "democracy" and ending tyranny -- not only in Iraq, but throughout the entire world.

By December of 2005, we had already sacrificed more than 2,300 American lives and spent $228 billion. Administration officials have been saying for nearly two years that we are on the verge of beating the insurgents, but we are no closer than when we started. Former Secretary of Defense Colin Powell stated in December 2005 that it will likely be "many years" before U.S. troops can be pulled out of Iraq. According to Linda Bilmes, who teaches budgeting at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government, if the war lasts five years, it will cost Americans about $1.4 trillion. That's a lot of taxes for a bankrupt nation. And the toll in blood will be even more costly. Are we willing to sacrifice our sons' and daughters' lives on the Iraqi sands and indenture future generations of Americans for the ever-changing goals of this "war on terror"?

FALLACY: George W. Bush did not lie us into war. He made the best decision he could based on the intelligence he had -- and the Democrats, using the same intelligence, came to the same conclusion.

REBUTTAL: That "consensus" only proves either bipartisan ignorance or bipartisan treachery. The evidence that was used as the strongest argument for invading and occupying Iraq has been shown to be false, and there is strong reason to believe that elected officials in both parties knew the evidence was false, or at least highly suspect. Those who challenged the phony "intelligence" have been vindicated.

FALLACY: President Bush is our commander in chief, and it is our patriotic duty during this time of war to support him.

REBUTTAL: It is unpatriotic not to question the conduct, direction, and objectives of this undeclared war. Even if genuine intelligence had conclusively shown that Iraq was indeed involved in the 9/11 attacks and/or was planning an attack on the U.S., the president is constitutionally required to obtain a declaration of war from Congress before starting hostilities. And Congress is required to go on record with a declaration of war, not simply authorize open-ended military action pursuant to some United Nations resolution. It is not unpatriotic to question the conduct, direction, or objectives of this undeclared war.

FALLACY: But Iraqi forces are rapidly being trained and are nearly ready to take over. It is irresponsible and immoral to pull out before they are capable of surviving without us.

REBUTTAL: According to General Shahwani, head of Iraqi intelligence, the insurgents have around 40,000 "hard core fighters." The only estimates from U.S. intelligence officials are that the insurgent numbers are "somewhat smaller." According to the Pentagon, the U.S.-trained and -equipped Iraqi Security Forces now number 100,000. Must we stay another two or three years and train another 50,000 or 100,000? And, if so, will that be sufficient, or will the timelines and numbers be shifted again?

If 150,000 U.S. troops -- equipped with America's high-tech weapons and our overwhelming air and sea support -- have not brought the Iraqi "insurgents" under control in nearly three years, it is highly unlikely that the Iraqi military, police, and government, which are saturated with anti-U.S. elements -- Sunnis, pro-Iranian Shias, Communists, al-Qaeda jihadists -- will do so in short order. Like it or not, this is a complex and intractable conflict that the Iraqi people must work out for themselves. We cannot do it for them, nor should we try.

FALLACY: We are helping make life sustainable after U.S. forces leave by providing schools, hospitals, water and sewer systems, and training our replacements to run the infrastructure. We can't let this all go down the drain.

REBUTTAL: Undoubtedly, there is some good that has come from our presence in Iraq. But the major humanitarian and reconstruction effort has been put in the hands of the most corrupt institution on earth, the United Nations.

Humanitarian aid is being handled by the United Nations Assistance Mission for Iraq (UNAMI), which is composed of UN agencies such as UNICEF, UNESCO, UN-HABITAT, UNFPA, UNIDO, UNIFEM, UNHCR, UNDP, UNEP, FAO, WHO, and ILO. All of these agencies have atrocious records for waste and corruption. Iraq's reconstruction has been placed under the auspices of the UN Development Group Iraq Trust Fund (UNDG-ITF), which includes most of the same agencies as UNAMI. These are all the same UN miscreants who gave us Saddam's multi-billion dollar "oil-for-food" racket, one of the biggest heists in history. In short, the Iraq aid package is an outrageous scheme to further enrich Kofi Annan's corrupt minions and politically favored corporate cronies, while further impoverishing American taxpayers.

FALLACY: It is better to fight the terrorists in Iraq than to fight them in the United States.

REBUTTAL: Tragically, the war in Iraq is making it more likely that we will be fighting the terrorists here in the United States. First and foremost, as the 9/11 attacks clearly demonstrated, our nation is wide open to terrorist attacks because our borders are a sham and our immigration and customs security are a joke. The 9/11 terrorists had easy access to our country, violating our visa "security" with virtual impunity. Rather than taking serious measures to close the gaping holes in our borders that allow millions of aliens to freely come and go without security checks, the administration has chosen to deplete our defense forces to dangerous levels by deploying our military to the far corners of the Earth.

At the same time, our military actions in Iraq are bringing in new terrorist recruits faster than we can capture or kill them. Don't take our word for it. The Bush administration itself has admitted this. "Islamic extremists are exploiting the Iraqi conflict to recruit new anti-U.S. jihadists," CIA Director Porter J. Goss told the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence on February 16, 2005. "These jihadists who survive will leave Iraq experienced and focused on acts of urban terrorism," Goss testified. "They represent a potential pool of contacts to build transnational terrorist cells, groups and networks in Saudi Arabia, Jordan and other countries."

Likewise, Vice Adm. Lowell E. Jacoby, director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, told the same Senate panel: "Our policies in the Middle East fuel Islamic resentment.... Overwhelming majorities in Morocco, Jordan and Saudi Arabia believe the U.S. has a negative policy toward the Arab world." Adm. Jacoby said the Iraq insurgency had grown "in size and complexity over the past year." That testimony by Goss and Jacoby comports with the evidence from Muslim sources as well as independent media sources, terrorism experts, and security analysts.

In the asymmetrical warfare of terrorism, it is dangerously delusional and counterproductive to use massive military force against small, clandestine groups that mix with local populations. It is tantamount to using a sledge hammer or a shotgun to take out a mosquito in the living room or nursery. The collateral damage is unacceptable for the objective.


(All right war backers lets see you justify the war NOW)

link> http://www.thenewamerican.com/artman/publish/article_2906.shtml <link
Eutrusca
31-12-2005, 17:38
Left wing bullshit.
-Magdha-
31-12-2005, 17:42
Left wing bullshit.

Lol, check the link. The New American is a conservative magazine.
Teh_pantless_hero
31-12-2005, 17:46
Lol, check the link. The New American is a conservative magazine.
That is a lie, anyone who opposes the Iraqi War is a left-wing, unpatriotic terrorist who hates America and wants us all to turn into vegetarian hippies.
Sdaeriji
31-12-2005, 17:46
Left wing bullshit.

Which part?
Fleckenstein
31-12-2005, 18:01
That is a lie, anyone who opposes the Iraqi War is a left-wing, unpatriotic terrorist who hates America and wants us all to turn into vegetarian hippies.

did i miss the sarcasm?
why do we need this? there is no way anything will change. Bush is on the way out and doesn't care about his approval. he's not running again.
face it: bush will not leave iraq. democrats are not in power

why are we arguing over something that can't be changed?

a democrat, mind you
-Magdha-
31-12-2005, 18:35
That is a lie, anyone who opposes the Iraqi War is a left-wing, unpatriotic terrorist who hates America and wants us all to turn into vegetarian hippies.

I never thought I'd be called left-wing! :eek:
Santa Barbara
31-12-2005, 18:43
I never thought I'd be called left-wing! :eek:

It's amazing how one's position regarding a single issue can make others immediately suspect you of being a full-blown Communist, Marxist or - worse - a hippie!

Part of the problem of a system where any single position on an issue is "owned" by one of the two parties. Anti-war = Democrat = Left, Pro-War = Republican = Right, and other such fallacies.
-Magdha-
31-12-2005, 18:44
It's amazing how one's position regarding a single issue can make others immediately suspect you of being a full-blown Communist, Marxist or - worse - a hippie!

Part of the problem of a system where any single position on an issue is "owned" by one of the two parties. Anti-war = Democrat = Left, Pro-War = Republican = Right, and other such fallacies.

Aye.
Teh_pantless_hero
31-12-2005, 18:47
Which part?
All the ones with the facts in them.
Sumamba Buwhan
31-12-2005, 19:38
Left wing bullshit.


nationalistic pro-war pro-military blinders
Domici
31-12-2005, 19:48
Lol, check the link. The New American is a conservative magazine.

What? You think that because Eutrusca can act human on occaision that he's actually capable of objectivly appraising his own views? Nah. He drank the flav-r-ade back in the 70's and hasn't had a decent pint of common sense since. To him "left-wing bullshit" is the latest word in stark political analysis.

Of course, to a left winger analyze comes from the Greek meaning broken down to it's most baisic level for purposes of study. Literally "not to be made looser."

To a right-winger it comes from the Latin meaning load of crap. Or literally, made to resemble the contents of the anus.
Neo Kervoskia
31-12-2005, 19:51
Oh, god, here we go again.
Domici
31-12-2005, 20:23
All the ones with the facts in them.

Yes, facts make Bush look stupid just because he keeps saying, doing, and advocating stupid things. Therefore, facts have a liberal bias and are full of left wing bullshit.
Refused Party Program
31-12-2005, 20:25
Yes, facts make Bush look stupid just because he keeps saying, doing, and advocating stupid things. Therefore, facts have a liberal bias and are full of left wing bullshit.

You know what was also filled with leftie bullshit?

TAB.

That's right. I mean, when was the last time you saw a can of TAB?
Exactly. We destroyed it.

*nods*
Free Mercantile States
31-12-2005, 21:32
What? You think that because Eutrusca can act human on occaision that he's actually capable of objectivly appraising his own views? Nah. He drank the flav-r-ade back in the 70's and hasn't had a decent pint of common sense since. To him "left-wing bullshit" is the latest word in stark political analysis.

Of course, to a left winger analyze comes from the Greek meaning broken down to it's most baisic level for purposes of study. Literally "not to be made looser."

To a right-winger it comes from the Latin meaning load of crap. Or literally, made to resemble the contents of the anus.

[choking on air thick with ad hominem attacks] Even though I agree with your side....
Frangland
31-12-2005, 21:41
Left wing bullshit.

yep

We are doing good in Iraq. It is a crime to allow people to suffer and die under a brutal dictator. If people don't have a choice for freedom, then there's nothing wrong with giving it to them.
Quibbleville
31-12-2005, 21:45
Left wing bullshit.
Which part?
The part where the author doesn't drop to his knees to eat bush. Presumably.
5iam
31-12-2005, 22:00
Lol, check the link. The New American is a conservative magazine.
Lol! No it's not! All of thier talking points are wacko liberal ones as well!
Seriously, look at the "current issue" section, you'll see what I'm talking about.

It's as conservative as MoveOn.org
Quibbleville
31-12-2005, 22:07
Lol! No it's not! All of thier talking points are wacko liberal ones as well!
Seriously, look at the "current issue" section, you'll see what I'm talking about.

It's as conservative as MoveOn.org
I looked through it - and frankly, I think you're all wacko. All of you. Red-white-and-blue, flag-waving wacko-jackos, all.
Gauthier
31-12-2005, 22:09
nationalistic pro-war pro-military blinders

There's a shorter word for that. Bushevism.
Man in Black
31-12-2005, 22:10
Half the facts are wrong, and the rest is just opinions and what-ifs. A pile of doo doo if I've ever seen it.

I don't care which side (left or right) it came from. I don't swear allegiance to either. It's a pile of crap article. Period.

And I'd like to add that Howard Stern is a jackoff idiot. (the real guy, not the poster)

You need a new role model, dude.
Novoga
31-12-2005, 22:55
What else is on?

Actually I have one question, do you get all your news about Iraq from the Mainstream Media or do you actually look at blogs from Iraqis and Coalition soldiers?
Man in Black
31-12-2005, 22:58
What else is on?

Actually I have one question, do you get all your news about Iraq from the Mainstream Media or do you actually look at blogs from Iraqis and Coalition soldiers?
I get my news from everywhere, including people who have been there.

That's how I know the article is doo doo.
Straughn
01-01-2006, 00:05
Oh, god, here we go again.
The defeat cry of the 2004 "election".
Straughn
01-01-2006, 00:06
Half the facts are wrong, and the rest is just opinions and what-ifs. A pile of doo doo if I've ever seen it.

I don't care which side (left or right) it came from. I don't swear allegiance to either. It's a pile of crap article. Period.

And I'd like to add that Howard Stern is a jackoff idiot. (the real guy, not the poster)

You need a new role model, dude.
Uhm think of the poster's name in the same way you think of the use of a pentagram.
Straughn
01-01-2006, 00:08
yep

We are doing good in Iraq. It is a crime to allow people to suffer and die under a brutal dictator. If people don't have a choice for freedom, then there's nothing wrong with giving it to them.
So you purport that the next logical step is against the Janjaweed in Darfur, right?
Straughn
01-01-2006, 00:10
You know what was also filled with leftie bullshit?

TAB.

That's right. I mean, when was the last time you saw a can of TAB?
Exactly. We destroyed it.

*nods*
Admittedly, this was a bit unexpected on a rant about the Iraq War.
I'm intrigued and i want to hear more from you about this.
Cahnt
01-01-2006, 00:14
yep

We are doing good in Iraq. It is a crime to allow people to suffer and die under a brutal dictator. If people don't have a choice for freedom, then there's nothing wrong with giving it to them.
Then how, pray tell, is Iraq any worse than the situation in Korea, Suadi Arabia, Syria, Israel or Tibet (under Chinese occupation)?
I don't see any eveidence of the American GOP doing a single fucking thing about the people suffering and dying under unelected dictators in those cases.
Kroisistan
01-01-2006, 00:16
Left wing bullshit.

3 years ago, I was scheduled to play George W. Bush in a fantasy debate between myself(bush) and another Debate Club student playing Michael Moore. My notes for that debate inculded the following phrase, as a joke - "Remember, any good right winger can always just dismiss facts and logical arguement." With responses like that, you strain out all the joke, and leave nothing but pure truth. Congratulations.

As to the article, it makes some good points. I disagree that we should withdraw, though. We can withdraw only when the Iraqi armed forces have been fully trained, and when the infrastructure of the nation has been fully repaired. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you break it you buy it. If that price is in American blood, so be it. But it is morally wrong to withdraw from a mess we created, until our replacements are competant to take over and until the damage we did is repaired. That will be justice.

As to whether a democracy will take hold in Iraq, I don't know. History says it won't happen, but we are not slaves to our past. If they want it bad enough I think they can suceed at some form of Republic. Will it be a secular, Americanized western democracy? I HIGHLY doubt it. It will probably be a Federal Republic with a stronger basis in Islamic law than the planners of the war envisioned.
Teh_pantless_hero
01-01-2006, 00:17
Then how, pray tell, is Iraq any worse than the situation in Korea, Suadi Arabia, Syria, Israel or Tibet (under Chinese occupation)?
I don't see any eveidence of the American GOP doing a single fucking thing about the people suffering and dying under unelected dictators in those cases.
You are wasting your time. They all have +3 Amulets of Fact Deflecting.
Cahnt
01-01-2006, 00:24
You are wasting your time. They all have +3 Amulets of Fact Deflecting.
I used to play AD&D myself, but I still read the papers...

Kroistan: on present evidence, it will be a shi'ite theocracy. Hussein and his Sunni power elite was the only thing holding those fundamentalist twits in check.
Kroisistan
01-01-2006, 00:34
Kroistan: on present evidence, it will be a shi'ite theocracy. Hussein and his Sunni power elite was the only thing holding those fundamentalist twits in check.

I don't think it will be a theocracy per se, because politically that just won't work in Iraq. 20% of the population is Sunni Muslim, a solid minority that wouldn't like a full-on Shiite Theocracy. Plus the Kurds are seriously secular-leaning, and I figure they might even seceed rather than live in a Shiite Theocracy. I figure that installing a Shiite Theocracy would tear the country apart, much worse than it already is.

Most politicians will opt, IMHO, for a moderately Islamic Republic.
Cahnt
01-01-2006, 00:39
I don't think it will be a theocracy per se, because politically that just won't work in Iraq. 20% of the population is Sunni Muslim, a solid minority that wouldn't like a full-on Shiite Theocracy. Plus the Kurds are seriously secular-leaning, and I figure they might even seceed rather than live in a Shiite Theocracy. I figure that installing a Shiite Theocracy would tear the country apart, much worse than it already is.

Most politicians will opt, IMHO, for a moderately Islamic Republic.
That's assuming that the shi'ites give a damn what the Sunnis (who have spent the last twenty years pissing all over them at every opportunity) and the Kurds think or want, and aren't even slightly impressed by the shi'ite theocracy next door. Maybe I'm a cynic, but until they prove me wrong, I'm inclined to fear the worst.
Kroisistan
01-01-2006, 00:41
That's assuming that the shi'ites give a damn what the Sunnis (who have spent the last twenty years pissing all over them at every opportunity) and the Kurds think or want, and aren't even slightly impressed by the shi'ite theocracy next door. Maybe I'm a cynic, but until they prove me wrong, I'm inclined to fear the worst.

Well I'm not saying it won't happen - but I am saying that it's unlikely, because any politician who wants a united Iraq would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

But there's nothing to say the Shiites don't just decide to do it anyways, leading to a raging Sunni insurgency and a Kurdish war of independence.

And I understand the cynicism about this particular situation.:)
Teh_pantless_hero
01-01-2006, 00:49
Most politicians will opt, IMHO, for a moderately Islamic Republic.
No group of politicians give a shit about anyone else nor will they adopt anything that even rhymes with moderate.
New Rafnaland
01-01-2006, 00:50
yep

We are doing good in Iraq.

If your definition of good is getting Americans killed while training the next couple of generations of terrorists and Islamic fundamentalist guerillas....

It is a crime to allow people to suffer and die under a brutal dictator.

Actually... it isn't. If it is, I'd like to know why we haven't liberated North Korea, yet. A nation that we knew had WMD. A nation that practically flies the text "WE HAVE NUKES!" on their flag. Oh, wait, that's right! We knew North Korea had them! And we knew that Iraq didn't!

Personally, I never thought I'd live to see the day when I would want Clinton back in office....

If people don't have a choice for freedom, then there's nothing wrong with giving it to them.

Except that wasn't why we invaded, remember? We invaded to take Iraq's WMD and because Saddam was allied with al-Qaida. Well, in Bush's wet dreams at least.
Cahnt
01-01-2006, 00:54
Well I'm not saying it won't happen - but I am saying that it's unlikely, because any politician who wants a united Iraq would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

But there's nothing to say the Shiites don't just decide to do it anyways, leading to a raging Sunni insurgency and a Kurdish war of independence.

And I understand the cynicism about this particular situation.:)
The shi'ites don't give a damn about uniting Iraq, though; this is the big problem with the situation as it stands. The occupying forces will back them up in kicking the crap out of the Sunnis, because they used to be Hussein's clique, and there aren't enough Kurds to achieve any kind of effective protest. They have a free hand to do whateever they wish, and i doubt that what they wish is going to make the middle east a lot more stable or safe for anybody who doesn't have a copy of the koran stuffed so far up their arse that they walk like a duck.
Danocovokia
01-01-2006, 01:16
I served in Iraq with the 4th Infantry at the beginning of the war and saw the capture of Saddam Hussein while in that country. I support the president and not because im a right wing extremist. I support the president because what we are doing is right and its noble. I do not deny that many mistakes have been made in the war and i have often grumbled about decisions that have been made loudly to my peers in the army. However, the author of the article did not point out some other key military conflicts where after occupying the country, it prospered. Japan and Germany are two countries who, after warring with the U.S., saw and are still seeing great prosperity. The author also mentioned something about some other democratically elected leaders. To call the president of Iran democratically elected is foolhearted at best. As painful as it is to see the my fellow soldiers get hurt, we cannot abandon Iraq until it has stabilized. The authors assertion that history has shown it to be unstable throughout history is true. However, the only constant in the world is that things change. Ultimatly it is the choice of the Iraqi's on where their country will go. However abandoning iraq immediately will, in the words of Thomas Paine who wrote "Common Sense" , " be leaving the sword to our children" After going to war, i for one hope my son never has to see it.
Teh_pantless_hero
01-01-2006, 01:22
I support the president and not because im a right wing extremist.
Because that is what you are taught to do.
Neu Leonstein
01-01-2006, 01:36
Actually I have one question, do you get all your news about Iraq from the Mainstream Media or do you actually look at blogs from Iraqis and Coalition soldiers?
Mainstream media. Why do you think grunts on the ground could give anything but a tiny speck of the image of the place. I stick to the politics of it - that way you concentrate in the important things, and don't start to get all teary.

As for the OP: I think the US has the responsibility to stick it out in Iraq. Even the reasons against staying noted that this is a valid point.
But face it: The reasons you went in are moot, so instead the focus is now on helping the Iraqis and freeing them from a dictator. Which in itself is a good thing.
But going in, destroying the country, leaving many tens on thousands dead, turning the place into a giant terrorist recruitment campaign - that sorta means that you're stuck with repairing the damage done.

And besides, a fractured, failed Iraq isn't in the interest of anyone, left, right or centrist. Doing it right is worth a lot more than 2000 US soldiers. The Russians didn't do it right in Afghanistan, and we know what happened - and they lost some 15,000 or something.
You have to do what it takes now.
Super-power
01-01-2006, 01:42
It's amazing how one's position regarding a single issue can make others immediately suspect you of being a full-blown Communist, Marxist or - worse - a hippie!
Pssh, if you think that's BS:
I tell my mom the government should end subsidizing businesses and industries and balining corporations out of debt, I get accused of being socialist!! :headbang:
New Rafnaland
01-01-2006, 02:01
I served in Iraq with the 4th Infantry at the beginning of the war and saw the capture of Saddam Hussein while in that country. I support the president and not because im a right wing extremist. I support the president because what we are doing is right and its noble. I do not deny that many mistakes have been made in the war and i have often grumbled about decisions that have been made loudly to my peers in the army. However, the author of the article did not point out some other key military conflicts where after occupying the country, it prospered. Japan and Germany are two countries who, after warring with the U.S., saw and are still seeing great prosperity. The author also mentioned something about some other democratically elected leaders. To call the president of Iran democratically elected is foolhearted at best. As painful as it is to see the my fellow soldiers get hurt, we cannot abandon Iraq until it has stabilized. The authors assertion that history has shown it to be unstable throughout history is true. However, the only constant in the world is that things change. Ultimatly it is the choice of the Iraqi's on where their country will go. However abandoning iraq immediately will, in the words of Thomas Paine who wrote "Common Sense" , " be leaving the sword to our children" After going to war, i for one hope my son never has to see it.

You forgot something about Japan and Germany:

-They were bombed to smitherins. No stone lay undisturbed.
-The Second World War raged for years. At the end of it, everyone was tired of fighting. Yanks, Brits, Aussies, Krauts, Japanese, ad nauseum.

The trouble with this new kind of war is that it's too fast, too bloodless. Instead of the war taking months or years and completely exhausting all parties, it now takes a matter of weeks. People are just getting wound up on fighting, nevermind the fact that they're already behind enemy lines and that their country has capitulated. What's more is that most of the buildings are still intact, but there are no jobs for people to do. In Japan and Germany, people got to work twelve hour shifts cleaning up and then rebuilding their cities, which leaves little time for one to hate and plot their occupiers.

What's more, the Germans and the Japanese wanted the US to occupy them. Because both of them hated the guts of the Soviets and decided they'd rather have us than the Soviets.

Brutal irony, yes-no?
Vetalia
01-01-2006, 02:08
Pssh, if you think that's BS:
I tell my mom the government should end subsidizing businesses and industries and balining corporations out of debt, I get accused of being socialist!! :headbang:

Wow...that's pretty screwed up. Government propping up corporations every time the unions or airline CEOs whine is a lot more socialist than getting rid of the subsidies and letting the free market work properly.
Kroisistan
01-01-2006, 02:41
No group of politicians give a shit about anyone else nor will they adopt anything that even rhymes with moderate.

That's one man's opinion.:)

The shi'ites don't give a damn about uniting Iraq, though; this is the big problem with the situation as it stands. The occupying forces will back them up in kicking the crap out of the Sunnis, because they used to be Hussein's clique, and there aren't enough Kurds to achieve any kind of effective protest. They have a free hand to do whateever they wish, and i doubt that what they wish is going to make the middle east a lot more stable or safe for anybody who doesn't have a copy of the koran stuffed so far up their arse that they walk like a duck.

The Sunni's are biggest on not having Iraq break up... namely because in that split they'd be left oil-less and thus dirt poor. But I doubt most Shiites want the shitstorm that would come with an Iraq breaking up. Plus if Iraq broke up and a civil war followed the US forces definitely wouldn't withdraw, and most Iraqi parties(and the Iraqi people, according to polls) are pretty clear that they aren't happy with the US troop presence. I don't doubt some theocracy, but I seriously doubt things will be as bad as you think.
Teh_pantless_hero
01-01-2006, 02:48
I don't doubt some theocracy, but I seriously doubt things will be as bad as you think.
You tell that to history.
Kroisistan
01-01-2006, 02:56
You tell that to history.

Um, okay, I will.

ahem... "If Iraq doesn't completely fall apart into civil war, it will emerge as a Republic with moderate Islamic influences, rather than a fullblown Shiite Theocracy or a Western Liberal Democracy. Things will not be as bad as Cahnt thinks."

You can quote me on that.:)
Sel Appa
01-01-2006, 05:27
I'm wondering how that can be dated over a week in the future...

btw, we all know this already, but thanks to the writer for pleasantly organizing it.
Domici
04-01-2006, 03:20
yep

We are doing good in Iraq. It is a crime to allow people to suffer and die under a brutal dictator. If people don't have a choice for freedom, then there's nothing wrong with giving it to them.

And it people choose to vote freedom and American corporations out, then there's nothing wrong with bombing them into the stone age?
Domici
04-01-2006, 03:26
Um, okay, I will.

ahem... "If Iraq doesn't completely fall apart into civil war, it will emerge as a Republic with moderate Islamic influences, rather than a fullblown Shiite Theocracy or a Western Liberal Democracy. Things will not be as bad as Cahnt thinks."

You can quote me on that.:)

Um, the Fundamentalist Shiite parties have already won the Iraqi elections. Under Sadam it was a secular Arab republic. Or rather, an Arab "republic." Rather like how the Republicans here are conservative.
DrunkenDove
04-01-2006, 03:44
It's too long, I didn't read it.

Can people start adding commentary to their cut and pastes? I want to know what you think, not endlessly refute some talking head.
Kroisistan
04-01-2006, 04:09
Um, the Fundamentalist Shiite parties have already won the Iraqi elections. Under Sadam it was a secular Arab republic. Or rather, an Arab "republic." Rather like how the Republicans here are conservative.

Fundamentalist party in power /= Theocracy.

I said my previous quote viewing a theocracy as the Islamic Republic of Iran, or Calvin's Geneva or something similar. Just as an openly religious party(the Republicans) control America, yet America is not a full-on Christian Theocracy, Fundamentalists can control Iraq and still create what I predict they will - a Republic with noticable Islamic influences. But I highly doubt it will be a full-on Shiite Theocracy. I stand by my statement.