NationStates Jolt Archive

Definition of Patriot (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=patriot)

Yes, I believe that I am a patriot.

Definition of Patriot (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=patriot)

No. Next question.

No, I served over 34 years in the US military [ in one venue or another ] because I'm NOT a patriot! Duh! :rolleyes:

Patriot is an ugly word here, thankfully.

I like the country I live in (England) .. Its definatly better than 99% of the rest of the world. Does that make me patriotic

Interesting results so far.

When there are foreigners around, I'll constantly talk about how great England is. However, if there are only English people around I'll complain about the country and about how we should be more like Canada, or New Zealand, or Scandinavia.

Certainly I'm patriotic. I support my country. The politicians can fend for themselves.

Or, as Teddy Roosevelt said

Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else.

Though i dont like my country much but i would definetly fight when against any foreign oppression if need be!..is that patriotism??

I would not die for my country, but for my people

No, I really couldn't care less about the American empire.

I didn't spend 26 years in the Air Force because of the pay. :(

Certainly I'm patriotic. I support my country. The politicians can fend for themselves.



Ah, the wonder of having an unelected apolitical head of state.

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN

No, I really couldn't care less about the American empire.

:mp5: USA! USA! USA! :D

Defend one's country? Most people seem to be taking it as, "Join the Army!"

Well, I'll be honest and say that I will never willingly join the US Armed Forces, after what my government put my father through in Vietnam. Oh wait, I'm wrong, he wasn't officially there! Ugh...and all the imperalist activities included as well.

Well, anyhow, I do defend my country when it comes to uninformed opinions and sterotypes, attempting to forge international understanding and whatnot. Only thing is, most people don't want to listen to me, and go with their sterotype. Anyhow, I just generally try to be a good American representative abroad.

And Celtlund's sig says it all, but what that mean's we should do is another debate. I personally don't favor nationalism or patriotism anymore, its all rather outdated as both world wars have shown, and I went with the internationalism choice.

Are you a patriot?

No.

i am most certainly patriotic, Scotland and Germany , both have deep significance for me

Ah, the wonder of having an unelected apolitical head of state.

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN
Can I add pointless and ineffective to that list of Queenly qualities? Maybe powerless, as well?

I wish I played for the Patriots. That would be awesome.

Can I add pointless and ineffective to that list of Queenly qualities? Maybe powerless, as well?

She is supposed to be a symbol, not an administrator.

Can I add pointless and ineffective to that list of Queenly qualities? Maybe powerless, as well?

Pointless and Ineffective?
Most certainly not. Firstly, the monarchy brings in more tourist money than it expends, secondly, every law in the UK has to be signed by a reigning Monarch before it is brought into being, and thirdly it's a morale booster. Britain is not a republic and it never will be. If you are not British you will not understand. It's a heritage, it's part of being our nationality. It's part of watching the Royal Fleet Review. It's part of watching the Union Jack flap in the wind. It's part of understanding our glorious and noble history. As I said, you can only understand if you live here. You can't replace the Queen with a Senate.

Pointless and Ineffective?
Most certainly not. Firstly, the monarchy brings in more tourist money than it expends, secondly, every law in the UK has to be signed by a reigning Monarch before it is brought into being, and thirdly it's a morale booster. Britain is not a republic and it never will be. If you are not British you will not understand. It's a heritage, it's part of being our nationality.

Before you mock British respect for the Royal Family, consider the pettiness of many Americans' attitude to flag-burning. It borders on fetishism!

Ah, the wonder of having an unelected apolitical head of state.

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN

Damn you Canadians.

What? I wasn't mocking it, I was avidly supporting it.

Many people call themselves "patriots" who are not. People who always support their government, whether it's right or wrong, are not patriots. People who confuse dishonest subversion with honest dissent (i.e., communists) are not patriots. People who put another country's interests before those of their own country are not patriots. Real patriots support their country when it is right and oppose it when it's wrong, but love their country (not necessarily its government) regardless.

What? I wasn't mocking it, I was avidly supporting it.

Apologies, I replied to the wrong post.

Many people call themselves "patriots" who are not. People who always support their government, whether it's right or wrong, are not patriots. People who confuse dishonest subversion with honest dissent (i.e., communists) are not patriots. People who put another country's interests before those of their own country are not patriots. Real patriots support their country when it is right and oppose it when it's wrong, but love their country (not necessarily its government) regardless.
yes, I agree.

I am a patriot.

No, I really couldn't care less about the American empire.

Then you can always feel free to leave. :)

I'm not patriotic. I never understood the concept.

First of all, I wouldn't even know which country t obe patriotic about.
Second, why be patriotic? Because you happen to be born in that one place? Doesn't make sense... there are plenty of places out there that are just as nice, if not nicer.

Then you can always feel free to leave. :)

Do we have to be patriots in order to stay in the US now?

Do we have to be patriots in order to stay in the US now?

No, but living in a country that you hate (and Letila does hate the U.S.) is both asinine and hypocritical.

I'm not patriotic. I never understood the concept.

First of all, I wouldn't even know which country t obe patriotic about.
Second, why be patriotic? Because you happen to be born in that one place? Doesn't make sense... there are plenty of places out there that are just as nice, if not nicer.
Patriotism doesn't come from being born into a certain country, but rather from one's love for the institutions and culture of his nation. I love the USA because of our constitution, which protects everyone's rights and ensures that government can't arbitrarily infringe upon them. I love the USA because of the unique culture that combines the just and liberal ideals of western civilization with the rugged, self-reliant and primal ideals of a more lawless time. I love the USA because this nation started with great aspirations for equality and justice, and has consistently made progress over time to live up to those lofty goals.

My allegience belongs to no nation. I swear my fealty to the human race as a whole.

Patriotism doesn't come from being born into a certain country, but rather from one's love for the institutions and culture of his nation. I love the USA because of our constitution, which protects everyone's rights and ensures that government can't arbitrarily infringe upon them. I love the USA because of the unique culture that combines the just and liberal ideals of western civilization with the rugged, self-reliant and primal ideals of a more lawless time. I love the USA because this nation started with great aspirations for equality and justice, and has consistently made progress over time to live up to those lofty goals.

I lived in 3 countries so far, and have origins and close contact to a fourth.
The institutions are more or less the same, only the structures and the names change.
The cultures are always unique and vary from country to country, town to town, even village to village.
I enjoyes living in all of those countries, and I have close friends in all of them. But loving the entire country? That's absurd.

I lived in 3 countries so far, and have origins and close contact to a fourth.
The institutions are more or less the same, only the structures and the names change.
The cultures are always unique and vary from country to country, town to town, even village to village.
I enjoyes living in all of those countries, and I have close friends in all of them. But loving the entire country? That's absurd.
I don't think it's absurd at all. Why would you say it's absurd?

I go with supporting the right decisions, opposing wrong ones, and just loving my country for what's good about, which is a lot. Im British, every flavor except Welsh, but I live in Scotland and for me it's mainly about Scotland. Briton as a whole is a good place to, and worth fighting for if some fascists were trying to annex it, but it has plenty of jingo to answer for.

I lived in 3 countries so far, and have origins and close contact to a fourth.
The institutions are more or less the same, only the structures and the names change.
The cultures are always unique and vary from country to country, town to town, even village to village.
I enjoyes living in all of those countries, and I have close friends in all of them. But loving the entire country? That's absurd.

Is any form of love rational?

I don't think it's absurd at all. Why would you say it's absurd?

It implies love for everything and everybody in the country, including all of the negative parts. Otherwise you wouldn't love the whole country, just bits and pieces of it.

Is any form of love rational?

I grew up in Germany, I believe that emotion and politics have to be kept stricly apart. A lesson well learned, you could say.

My allegience belongs to no nation. I swear my fealty to the human race as a whole.
What does it mean to swear fealty to the human race as a whole? When does the human race ever call upon you to do anything? What institutions are shared by all humans that you admire? Don't take offense please, but I've never understood that sort of statement.

I like the country I live in (England) .. Its definatly better than 99% of the rest of the world. Does that make me patriotic
Maybe or maybe just Arrogant.

It implies love for everything and everybody in the country, including all of the negative parts. Otherwise you wouldn't love the whole country, just bits and pieces of it.
Absolutely not. Dissent is a part of patriotism. Pointing out the failings of your nation doesn't mean you don't love it. If a father loves his son does that mean he should never discipline him when he does something harmfull? If a father does discipline his son does that mean he loves him less?

My country? Only one? :p

Anyway, I've always preferred this definition:
"A patriot is someone who loves his country. A nationalist is someone that hates all others."
-Johannes Rau, former President of Germany

Absolutely not. Dissent is a part of patriotism. Pointing out the failings of your nation doesn't mean you don't love it. If a father loves his son does that mean he should never discipline him when he does something harmfull? If a father does discipline his son does that mean he loves him less?

*Applauds*

Absolutely not. Dissent is a part of patriotism. Pointing out the failings of your nation doesn't mean you don't love it. If a father loves his son does that mean he should never discipline him when he does something harmfull? If a father does discipline his son does that mean he loves him less?

Er... a father isn't a good example to quote to me ;)

But what would patriotism be good for? What advantages does it have?
I know we are talking about an emotion here, but I completely fail to grasp the concept, really. One place is pretty much as good as the next, and to me, it's personal preferences that determine in what country I live.

I am willing to fight and even lay down my life to defend my country from its government. Yes, I am a patriot.

What does it mean to swear fealty to the human race as a whole? When does the human race ever call upon you to do anything?
Well, it's something of a philosophy. I will never support actions of the nation in which I reside that benefits the nation over the interests of others. Perhaps the most stark case in which this materializes is outsourcing. Many in America show outsourcing as one of the things TEH EVAL coroporations do to screw honest people out of a buck. I only see gains to outsourcing; it matters not to me whether an Indian or an American hold a given job, and outsourcing leads to a more equitiable distribution of wealth. I think it boils down to one thing: I don't care for an American citizen any more than I do for any other person on the planet. Which is why, incidentally, I didn't have as huge a reaction to 9/11 as most of my peers: we hear about terrorist attacks in foreign countries all the time, especialyl in Israel; why should I care more if it's in America now?

What institutions are shared by all humans that you admire? Don't take offense please, but I've never understood that sort of statement.
Perhaps not all, but most humans: the United Nations, for one. Doctors without borders, for another. Any of the multitude of aid organizations which eschew national identity in favor of helping all nationalities.

I grew up in Germany, I believe that emotion and politics have to be kept stricly apart. A lesson well learned, you could say.

Politics and emotion apart? Pigs will fly before that happens...

Politics and emotion apart? Pigs will fly before that happens...

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/cabrawest/flyingpig.gif

Here you go...

I take it you don't know a lot about German politics, then?

Er... a father isn't a good example to quote to me ;)

But what would patriotism be good for? What advantages does it have?
I know we are talking about an emotion here, but I completely fail to grasp the concept, really. One place is pretty much as good as the next, and to me, it's personal preferences that determine in what country I live.
It binds a people together and helps them work toward the common goal of making their nation into a place that suits their code of ethics and that provides the environment for them to live happy lives.

It allows a diverse nation, like the US, to see past minor divisions like color, religion, and political party by giving us a shared identity.

It can also promote progress when two patriotic nations, like the USA and USSR enter into constructive competition. The people of both nations push themselves to outdo the other. If it wasn't for the space race we entered into we probably wouldn't have progressed this far in technology.

I believe that emotion and politics have to be kept stricly apart. A lesson well learned, you could say.
That's why they invented ES&S, Diebold and Sequoia. Just so politics and emotion are kept strictly apart. That way, you don't have to vote (being a human, you evidently will experience emotions if you vote) and just let some corporate fascist cabal do it for you, via these wonderful machines.

Pigs will fly before that happens...
Just saw on the news that a flock of flying pigs was travelling around the USA. (Refer to first quote.)

I would love to say that I ain't a patriot since I'm not necessarily fighting for my countries (am from two) or flags, but whatever you call them, a country is nothing more than its people. And I'd fight and die for them. (I'm from Quebec and North Ireland, by the way.)

Well, it's something of a philosophy. I will never support actions of the nation in which I reside that benefits the nation over the interests of others. Perhaps the most stark case in which this materializes is outsourcing. Many in America show outsourcing as one of the things TEH EVAL coroporations do to screw honest people out of a buck. I only see gains to outsourcing; it matters not to me whether an Indian or an American hold a given job, and outsourcing leads to a more equitiable distribution of wealth. I think it boils down to one thing: I don't care for an American citizen any more than I do for any other person on the planet. Which is why, incidentally, I didn't have as huge a reaction to 9/11 as most of my peers: we hear about terrorist attacks in foreign countries all the time, especialyl in Israel; why should I care more if it's in America now?


Perhaps not all, but most humans: the United Nations, for one. Doctors without borders, for another. Any of the multitude of aid organizations which eschew national identity in favor of helping all nationalities.

I'm in favor of controlled outsourcing in order to spare people the problems caused by rapid changes in the job market and to make sure that overseas workers are not exploited by being underpaid, overworked, and unsafe.

Anyway, that's a discussion for another thread.

As for 9/11, to me it's like this. Let's say you read about someone being murdered in the newspaper. It's horrible, but it doesn't effect you much. Now let's say one of your family members is murdered. Your reaction will probably be more emotional. I see my countrymen as an extended family.

My opinion of the UN isn't so high, but I agree with you on the helpfullness of many NGOs. Still, loving your country doesn't mean you must oppose Doctors Without Borders. You can do both.

It binds a people together and helps them work toward the common goal of making their nation into a place that suits their code of ethics and that provides the environment for them to live happy lives.

That's plain self-interest. People will always try to make sure that they have a good life, wherever they happen to live.


It allows a diverse nation, like the US, to see past minor divisions like color, religion, and political party by giving us a shared identity.

I can't say too much about that, really, apart from pointing out the fact that the two most patriotic nations on earth, France and the US, seem to have had the most violent racially motivated riots in the past decades.

It can also promote progress when two patriotic nations, like the USA and USSR enter into constructive competition. The people of both nations push themselves to outdo the other. If it wasn't for the space race we entered into we probably wouldn't have progressed this far in technology.

Calling the Cold War "constructive competion" is taking it a bit far, don't you think?

Yes, I'd fight for my country

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/cabrawest/flyingpig.gif

Here you go...

I take it you don't know a lot about German politics, then?

I know plenty about German politics. But are you truly convinced that there is a single politician who's views are not influenced slightly by emotion?

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/cabrawest/flyingpig.gif

Here you go...

I take it you don't know a lot about German politics, then?

I know nothing about German politics. Is that ya'lls President? He's cute.

I know plenty about German politics. But are you truly convinced that there is a single politician who's views are not influenced slightly by emotion?

Cheney and Rumsfeld?

I know plenty about German politics. But are you truly convinced that there is a single politician who's views are not influenced slightly by emotion?

No, I wouldn't say that. But I am convinced from what I saw at home and in other countries, that German politicians tend to try and justify their emotional influences in a rational way when presenting them to the public, not the other way round as seems to be customary in more patriotic nations.

That's plain self-interest. People will always try to make sure that they have a good life, wherever they happen to live.



I can't say too much about that, really, apart from pointing out the fact that the two most patriotic nations on earth, France and the US, seem to have had the most violent racially motivated riots in the past decades.



Calling the Cold War "constructive competion" is taking it a bit far, don't you think?
1) It goes beyond self interest. I would call the civil rights activists who went South during the 60s to help ensure equality true patriots. They weren't risking their lives for their own gain, but rather to see that our nation lived up to the ideals written into our constitution. They had nothing to gain for themselves. Their bravery and sacrifice was for their fellow citizens.

2) Even so, those riots are rare. Look at our day to day lives. Look at the friendships between people of different races in the US, at the diversity found in our workplaces and schools, we get along quite well. We may have some differences and disagreements, but we are still united.

3) I called the space race constructive competition.

I know nothing about German politics. Is that ya'lls President? He's cute.

No. We call her "chancellor". And, yes, that's Mrs Merkel, all right :D

I am an American patriot, and I always will be.

~ Romandeos.

1) It goes beyond self interest. I would call the civil rights activists who went South during the 60s to help ensure equality true patriots. They weren't risking their lives for their own gain, but rather to see that our nation lived up to the ideals written into our constitution. They had nothing to gain for themselves. Their bravery and sacrifice was for their fellow citizens.

Empathy. I think behaviour like that can, but doesn't have to be rooted in patriotism. Look at the peace movement in Germany in the 70's, look at the effort people put into seeing environmental protection on the program of almost all political parties. It's the desire to live in a better, safer, cleaner, juster environment. Doesn't have to be the country, people will do things like that for their village or for a whole continent.
Look at organisations like Amnesty International, Green Peace, Doctors Without Borders.


2) Even so, those riots are rare. Look at our day to day lives. Look at the friendships between people of different races in the US, at the diversity found in our workplaces and schools, we get along quite well. We may have some differences and disagreements, but we are still united.

And you put that down only to patriotism? I somehow doubt it's quite that simple.


3) I called the space race constructive competition.

The space race was an integral part of the cold war, one regime was trying to prove that it was better than the other in virtually all walks of life. It was a little more than just healthy competition, but I agree that it did push technological development something fierce.
However, having grow up in that climate, I don't wish to have it back, really.

It binds a people together and helps them work toward the common goal of making their nation into a place that suits their code of ethics and that provides the environment for them to live happy lives.
Except that this self-aggrandizement will often come at the expense of other nations.

It allows a diverse nation, like the US, to see past minor divisions like color, religion, and political party by giving us a shared identity.
And replaces it with a distinction just as harmful, that of nationality.

It can also promote progress when two patriotic nations, like the USA and USSR enter into constructive competition. The people of both nations push themselves to outdo the other. If it wasn't for the space race we entered into we probably wouldn't have progressed this far in technology.
That's a fair point, but I do think this sense of friendly competition can be preserved without patriotism. And, at any rate, whatever benefits that came from the cold war are far outweighed by the very real possiblity of all human life ending on this planet as a result of a nuclear exhcnage.

As for 9/11, to me it's like this. Let's say you read about someone being murdered in the newspaper. It's horrible, but it doesn't effect you much. Now let's say one of your family members is murdered. Your reaction will probably be more emotional. I see my countrymen as an extended family.
And therein lies our difference. You see your countrymen as your exteded family, while I see the entire human race as mine.

My opinion of the UN isn't so high, but I agree with you on the helpfullness of many NGOs. Still, loving your country doesn't mean you must oppose Doctors Without Borders. You can do both.
Well, that depends. What happens when Doctors without borders starts treating the insurgents in Iraq? Or any number of life-saving procedures on terrorists? What if they gave Osama Bin Laden that operation he needed to keep living? Would you support them then? That's really the definition of the doctors without borders; they heal no matter what people's idology or nation.

I think that nation-states are a bad idea, unless they're on the internet.

Ewww, a Patriot? Definitely NOT!! I'm a Jets fan for life :D
Oh wait, the other Patriot? Ya, I'd say I'm a patriot

Humans are still too undeveloped to understand the globe as one. It started from "my cave" advanced in to "my town" and is now slowly sliding towards "our earth" but odds are we kill ourself before we get there.

As for Patrionism? Well, its natural, my way of life is definately better than those of my neibhours. :p And now take that ob the global scale and you got perfectly normal human thinking. And defending your country? Well its personal choise, i think i would take on arms for it and take chances of getting killed, but i dont think anyone will know for sure what would happen if they would face the gin-barrel or smirking interrigator...

All in all, be proud of yourself. If you feel inferior yuo will try to compensate about it with being boasty and flashy. If you have healthy respect for your ancestry and country, its all good. But if you feel you are only and one voice that dictates the truth you have slipped a bit off.

PS. Goverment, all in all, are just humans... look at your neibhour again. ;)

Well, that depends. What happens when Doctors without borders starts treating the insurgents in Iraq? Or any number of life-saving procedures on terrorists? What if they gave Osama Bin Laden that operation he needed to keep living? Would you support them then? That's really the definition of the doctors without borders; they heal no matter what people's idology or nation.
I've snipped the bulk of your post because I think we fundamentally disagree on those issues and there will be no gain in debating them. Plus I'm kinda bored of debating.

I wanted to address the last part of your post.

If Doctors without borders chooses to treat the insurgents or even Osama, that's their perogative. It doesn't mean that we'll stop trying to capture or kill those people, but I don't think it's any of my business to say who can or can't get medical treatment. In wars in the past enemy nations would bring their wounded to aid stations and hospitals. Doctors without borders, in the situations you mentioned, would be the equivalent. I don't know if the US has ever made a policy of bombing the enemy's hospitals or shooting the enemy's medics, but I would hope that we haven't.

I don't hate or a love a particular nation. Only certain aspects.

Patiotism is stockholm syndrome on a national scale

Patiotism is stockholm syndrome on a national scale That would only make sense if nations kidnapped people and made them citizens. I'm in the USA by choice. I could leave, but I choose not to.

That would only make sense if nations kidnapped people and made them citizens. I'm in the USA by choice. I could leave, but I choose not to.
I think you're actually Canadian and you were brought here in chains as a young lad and over time you came to love the USA.

I think you're actually Canadian and you were brought here in chains as a young lad and over time you came to love the USA.
Dude, I could never be Canadian. I like real bacon.

Dude, I could never be Canadian. I like real bacon.
That's what you were programmed to like.

the symptoms are the same. As a matter of course a nation cant treat an individual as an equal to a nation, and a kidnapper treats a captive as being below them. Once control is established, it comes down to how you're treated. But people love thier country whether they are treated well or treated badly. No matter how they are treated though, theyre subservient, so loving your country is loving a captor

the symptoms are the same. As a matter of course a nation cant treat an individual as an equal to a nation, and a kidnapper treats a captive as being below them. Once control is established, it comes down to how you're treated. But people love thier country whether they are treated well or treated badly. No matter how they are treated though, theyre subservient, so loving your country is loving a captor
A kidnapped person can't leave his captor. A citizen of most countries is free to leave. I really don't see where you're going with this.

Not really a patriot. Countries are useful contraptions for administrative purposes, but we should be working to abolish them.

I'm not patriotic. I never understood the concept.

First of all, I wouldn't even know which country t obe patriotic about.
Second, why be patriotic? Because you happen to be born in that one place? Doesn't make sense... there are plenty of places out there that are just as nice, if not nicer.

Then move there and be patriotic about it. :)

A kidnapped person can't leave his captor. A citizen of most countries is free to leave. I really don't see where you're going with this.

Meh, more One World Government crap. Don't bother with it.

No, but living in a country that you hate (and Letila does hate the U.S.) is both asinine and hypocritical.
not once you realize that all countries have bad aspects and that governments come and go. why go from the frying pan into the fire?

I am an internationalist. I would happily fight against my country of birth (not necessarily referring to violent conflict) if I felt my country was wrong, and I don't see a problem with that.

In some ways I love my country, being as unique as it is, but the beauty of the landmass itself has little to do with the "country". Would I help defend the people of my country? Absolutely, if I felt that it was justified and not our own doing.

I'd say there are few German patriots, and those that are, are so for the wrong reasons.

I'm not one of them - my "patriotism" may extend as far as the European Union, but that only because it represents Internationalism in its infancy stage.

Nationality is not something to be proud of, and if you think otherwise, I'd like to see you prove that it is.

No, I'd rather see the institution of the nation-state destroyed.

Many people call themselves "patriots" who are not. People who always support their government, whether it's right or wrong, are not patriots. People who confuse dishonest subversion with honest dissent (i.e., communists) are not patriots. People who put another country's interests before those of their own country are not patriots. Real patriots support their country when it is right and oppose it when it's wrong, but love their country (not necessarily its government) regardless.
Agreed. But I wouldn't die for my country (I'm from Asia, FYI).

I served six years in the Canadian military, but this was for purely selfish reasons.

Joing the military was my only logical option of getting out of the small town I lived in. I did not wish to return to school for another year.

Would I have fought for my country ? Yes, because I enlisted voluntarily.

However, back to the question at hand.

No, I am not partriotic. I was born here purely out of geographical luck.

This country is where my father had enough money to get to, when he left Ireland.

One must appreciate that one does not fight in a war for his/her country, but rather fights in a war because some (usually) self promoting interest by a politician.

The last real war that any country had any business being in, was WWII - and that, was a global conflict, not some self serving regional interest.

I'd defend my country in extreme situations but I won't support actions with which I disagree just because of patriotism. Besides, I too prefer to be a citizen of the world.

Patriotism just fills in the gap in your personality

Then move there and be patriotic about it. :)

I did move there :rolleyes:
But I see no reason to be patriotic to it...

[QUOTE=Neu Leonstein]

I'm not one of them - my "patriotism" may extend as far as the European Union, but that only because it represents Internationalism in its infancy stage.

QUOTE]

I'm welling to bet that there's another reason for your patriotism to the EU. If we consider that Germany is the greatest economic power in the union and has a high degree of economic control over other Euro countries thanks to its control of the ECB and gold reserves, perhaps German enthusiasm for the EU can be seen in a different light.

Change in Germany policy? Bismarck must be smiling in his grave.

Yes I am patriotic because I love my country. Not as an abstract concept, but I mean I love the land, people and the culture of Ireland. I hate nationalism though. It's nothing but destructive as the last 40 years up North have shown. In fact I even view militant nationalists (i.e. the Provos) as unpatriotic.

It's a pity that I seem to be in a minority.

If there was a threat to my country I'd take up arms against it.

However, Internationalism is an idea I have great fondness for also, and I think that it is the right thing for us to do to help others. But to often internationalism is not practical. My post may seem strange. I suppose I consider myself both patriotic and internationalist.

I would not die for my country, but for my people
I don't see the difference. There is no country without its people.

I like the country I live in (England) .. Its definatly better than 99% of the rest of the world. Does that make me patriotic
No, it makes you a nationalist.

Patriot is an ugly word here, thankfully.
Why?


Second, why be patriotic? Because you happen to be born in that one place? Doesn't make sense... there are plenty of places out there that are just as nice, if not nicer.
To make the lives of other people better? To defend a place of beauty from destruction? Are these not good reasons?

I grew up in Germany, I believe that emotion and politics have to be kept stricly apart. A lesson well learned, you could say.
Sounds like yet another person is confusing patriotism and nationalism. I'm patriotic; that doesn't mean I have a superiority complex.

One place is pretty much as good as the next, and to me, it's personal preferences that determine in what country I live.
Patriotism is obviously a personal preference.

I am willing to fight and even lay down my life to defend my country from its government. Yes, I am a patriot.
Oohhh look a Texan!

That's plain self-interest. People will always try to make sure that they have a good life, wherever they happen to live.
WTF, are you an objectivist now or something? People can't always make sure they have a good life by acting alone. More often we act in co-operation with other people to that end.

I can't say too much about that, really, apart from pointing out the fact that the two most patriotic nations on earth, France and the US, seem to have had the most violent racially motivated riots in the past decades.

France and America's problems are based in nationalism not patriotism. You'll notice the large proportion of French people with a superiority complex, and the large proportion of Americans with a hatred of other nations (especially France!).

Blame nationalism. In one case, you have the foolish pride of the white ethnic French population looking down on immigrants, which is one of the roots of the current problems. On the other side, there is the religious hostility to secularism among the immigrants. If only both groups had put aside their ethnic nationalism and worked together under one banner, we wouldn't be having these problems.

Empathy. I think behaviour like that can, but doesn't have to be rooted in patriotism. Look at the peace movement in Germany in the 70's, look at the effort people put into seeing environmental protection on the program of almost all political parties. It's the desire to live in a better, safer, cleaner, juster environment. Doesn't have to be the country, people will do things like that for their village or for a whole continent.
Look at organisations like Amnesty International, Green Peace, Doctors Without Borders.
Of course such things are influenced by Patriotism, especially the environmentalism thing. Wanting your country to be clean and beautiful is quite a patriotic sentiment in my eyes. That's why I'm a member of the Green party. I also support international organisations you named (member of AI, financial supporter of MSF).

Patiotism is stockholm syndrome on a national scale
No it's not. Patriotism is allegiance to the land and people of a country; not its government.

Why isn't there any 'no' answer? Why are they all fiercely patriotic or anti-patriotic? My nation's okay. Problem is I have two nationalities, so that probably halves my patriotism and national pride, as I can distance myself from the individuals of either nation and see the faults and merits of both. And mock them of course, because after all I'm only half (insert nationality here)!

...To make the lives of other people better? To defend a place of beauty from destruction? Are these not good reasons?

...WTF, are you an objectivist now or something? People can't always make sure they have a good life by acting alone. More often we act in co-operation with other people to that end.

Long post... and I just want to answer to thses two bits:

I will always have an interest to work together with others to make the world better. Be that the place where I live or the place where I came from or any place I've never been and most likely never will be. My desire to improve the quality of life for myself and others is not determined by what nation I happen to live in.

I would be more than reluctant to take up arms in any given scenario, as I strongly belief that I don't have the right to take another person's life, no matter what. But I will always be ready to work for any social or environmental cause, be that here or elsewhere on the planet. I don't feel that I should treat people who live in the same place as I do with any preference.

Why isn't there any 'no' answer? Why are they all fiercely patriotic or anti-patriotic? My nation's okay. Problem is I have two nationalities, so that probably halves my patriotism and national pride, as I can distance myself from the individuals of either nation and see the faults and merits of both. And mock them of course, because after all I'm only half (insert nationality here)!

That's what's so great about being half-English and half-Welsh... I can play either the oppressed but resisting minority (Cymru am byth!) or the benevolent paternal oppressor (what a quaint language they speak!).

Makes England vs. Wales matches difficult though...

I am a patriot, I love my country, but it is a fine line between patriotism and nationalism. I stipulate that I am not English, or Scottish, I am BRITISH, because being from England and living in Scotland that there is too much Nationalism here, although Scotland is definitley a very nice place to live.

"No nation is fit to sit in judgement upon any other nation"

Some things that my country has done are wrong, and I am not a fan of capitalism, which is the way we are going. However, for the most part, British is Best!

God Save Our Queen
Rule Britannia!

I did move there :rolleyes:
But I see no reason to be patriotic to it...

So you moved somewhere you don't love? What sense does that make?

Umm, Viva America, Down with the UN!

There, I've said it.

So you moved somewhere you don't love? What sense does that make?

I like living here. And I love the friends I have here. I don't see the point in loving a piece of ground...

i loved this country until i started thinking and reading for myself. i like the people here but the government is so corrupt.

...two most patriotic nations on earth, France and the US...
My apologies, I forgot that Russia and China existed?


i loved this country until i started thinking and reading for myself. i like the people here but the government is so corrupt.
You don't have to love a country because of what it's like currently. I look at Britain and I think "This country has gone down the drain" but that is history - a government, in civilised countries, can be changed. History, phsyically, cannot be changed (Unless you are Big Brother)

I like living here. And I love the friends I have here. I don't see the point in loving a piece of ground...

It's more than loving the ground, it's about loving the culture and the people.

Although some places you would love for the ground, as the scenery is beautiful. :)

We probably dont know 40% of peoples opinions who voted for this poll.

I would die for my country and i would like to support it everytime but i can't.

i'm a 'patriot' of the immaginary world inside my head. not the country that mundanely surrounds me. considering what it's been up to lately, i'm a little bit paranoid to be saying so too loud or too often, and i certainly don't advocate overthrowing anything, but i do advocate nonconfrontationaly avoiding supporting clear and obvious sources of suffering and harm.

=^^=
.../\...

I would call myself a patriot, but not in the way most Americans are. The object of my patriotism is not the United States, but my own state, Michigan. My reasoning behind this (as much as you can reason an emotional thing) is that no matter where I go in the world, when I go back to Michigan it feels like home. I've heard it said that we live in our own little world up in the mitten, and I would agree with that. And its a world I like. I can't say I have any real feelings for the United States because its just too general a thing. To be honest, when I go to Colorado or California I feel just as "away" as I do when I'm in Germany or France. I'm not saying I'll live in Michigan my whole life, I probably won't, but Michigan will always be "home" to me.

I'm welling to bet that there's another reason for your patriotism to the EU...
Yeah, that's right. The EU is an evil ploy to steal all the Tea from Britain and drink it ourselves.
The Krauts and their krazy ideas...

Definition of Patriot (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=patriot)
I am not a patriot, then. I care about myself, not a country.

Yeah, that's right. The EU is an evil ploy to steal all the Tea from Britain and drink it ourselves.
The Krauts and their krazy ideas...

I notice you don't try to refute my points.

What can't be accomplished by war can be accomplished by diplomacy.

Many people call themselves "patriots" who are not. People who always support their government, whether it's right or wrong, are not patriots. People who confuse dishonest subversion with honest dissent (i.e., communists) are not patriots. People who put another country's interests before those of their own country are not patriots. Real patriots support their country when it is right and oppose it when it's wrong, but love their country (not necessarily its government) regardless.


That should be the Oxford Dictonary definition of patriot.

Yes I would consider myself a patriot, if only that Ireland kicks ass as a place to live.

I notice you don't try to refute my points.
Well, there aren't that many now, are there.

I'm welling to bet that there's another reason for your patriotism to the EU. If we consider that Germany is the greatest economic power in the union and has a high degree of economic control over other Euro countries thanks to its control of the ECB and gold reserves, perhaps German enthusiasm for the EU can be seen in a different light.
You'd have to know how German politics works these days for you to make any sort of accurate statements. Obviously you don't, because it could not be conceivable that German politicians could make dominating anything a political goal. Their own people would rip them apart.
But as for the economy...sure it's big, but if you put France and Britain together, they're just as big (or even a bit bigger).
The ECB is not controlled by any country. Obviously it has to consider Germany as an economic zone, but it doesn't do so exclusively - if it had, it'd had cut interest rates a while back, because inflation in Germany has been quite a bit lower than in other Euro-countries. Nonetheless, the ECB has to work with averages.
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,392631,00.html

As for Gold Reserves...not that it matters anymore, but the Government is getting rid of it over time.
http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/afx/2005/12/23/afx2411704.html

What can't be accomplished by war can be accomplished by diplomacy.
Sure - but look at the way the EU first started with the first FTAs between Adenauer and DeGaulle. It was meant as a gesture of ending the hostility, as well as a way to reconstruct the economies after the war.
It is everything but some sort of ploy to rule Europe. What you are saying is basically UK-Boulevard news about evil Brussels doing everything, up to but not necessarily including, clubbing baby seals.

If the population of the UK does not like the way the EU is developing, there is nothing that stands in the way of working towards changing it. They are one of the most powerful members - and the more of the silly rebate Tony gives up, the more he can pressure others. And remember that Chirac will be gone soon, Schröder's already left (and no longer popular in Germany after that Pipeline thing) and Merkel has made it pretty clear that she no longer supports France no matter what.

I've outlined my reasons for the need for an EU before, and you've done nothing to sway me (particularly since you only argue from an UK-centric point).
The EU is the future, one way or the other. The issue is not whether or not it will exist, the issue is what we all make of it. And sitting on the fence and yelling unconstructive criticisms will not help anyone.

I've outlined my reasons for the need for an EU before, and you've done nothing to sway me (particularly since you only argue from an UK-centric point).
The EU is the future, one way or the other. The issue is not whether or not it will exist, the issue is what we all make of it. And sitting on the fence and yelling unconstructive criticisms will not help anyone.

I'm inclined to agree with Neu, here - some things I think he posted on other threads have actually swayed me away from a UK-first pposition to seeing that we might very well need an EU. That's quite impressive, as I'd once happily have voted to dismantle the EU if the choice was offered.

In short, America's not going to be top dog forever, nor will it always be there to help us in extremis - this is always going to be a dangerous world, after all. I think the trend will be growing local great powers - China, perhaps India, Russia, certainly the USA. We need to keep pace with them, economically and in terms of political influence.

An organisation of small countries working collectively can accomplish what any one could not. It only makes sense for us to work together for mutual benefit and protection.

The EU as it stands is dreadfully organised, poorly led, and badly in need of democratisation. But the ideas behind it - economic and military cooperation, working together to protect its citizens - are excellent. If it was a game, some RTS, you'd exit and start a new game - the ideals are good, the execution awful! As it's not that simple in real life, you just have to develop and push for reform, as I intend to. But the ideas behind the EU... I can support them, it's only the implementation of them that I now take issue with.