NationStates Jolt Archive

I often have this argument with my husband. Every time we hear a new grizzly story of multiple murder, or kidnappings, torture and murder, my husband makes a comment about it being a US or Canadian thing. I don't just mean your run of the mill murder in the heat of the moment, or whatever...I'm mean the true sick people like Homolka, Bundy et al. I argue that we probably just don't hear about it happening in other countries...either because it isn't reported, or we just don't get that news. But I don't know. What causes people to become serial killers? Is there something about Western living that encourages it? Are we so bored that we invent these sick pastimes? Part of me thinks there might be some link, but I can't quite bring myself to believe its a very strong one. What do you think? Please keep it civil folks.

I often have this argument with my husband. Every time we hear a new grizzly story of multiple murder, or kidnappings, torture and murder, my husband makes a comment about it being a US or Canadian thing. I don't just mean your run of the mill murder in the heat of the moment, or whatever...I'm mean the true sick people like Homolka, Bundy et al. I argue that we probably just don't hear about it happening in other countries...either because it isn't reported, or we just don't get that news. But I don't know. What causes people to become serial killers? Is there something about Western living that encourages it? Are we so bored that we invent these sick pastimes? Part of me thinks there might be some link, but I can't quite bring myself to believe its a very strong one. What do you think? Please keep it civil folks.
Actually there have been recorded serial killers in South America, Africa, Asia, Russia, and just about everywhere. Just some countries don't release statistics on crime, like China.

So I take it Jack the Ripper was an American, then?

So I take it Jack the Ripper was an American, then?

No, but England is decidedly Western.

Russia definitely has serial killers. It has become more of an issue since the 1980s though.

Mexico and the Indian Subcontinent has had their fair share, as have the South American countries. Some of those guys have clocked up murders in the hundreds due to a lack of effective policing.

Actually there have been recorded serial killers in South America, Africa, Asia, Russia, and just about everywhere. Just some countries don't release statistics on crime, like China.
But do there tend to be more in the West? Actually, I don't know squat about serial killers in Europe either, so I actually am thinking just about the US and Canada. I wonder if it's even possible to compare (as in, are the stats reliable). Or is there more of a fascination in North America about serial killers, giving them more publicity than they'd find elsewhere?

So I take it Jack the Ripper was an American, then?
I specifically extended this to the West...though I'll admit because of my own lack of knowledge about such criminals abroad, I was specifically thinking of North America. But Jack the Ripper is some time ago...have there been more recent serial killers that spring to mind? I don't need gory details, just confirmation:)

Maybe a better question is which countries have few if any serial killers (assuming accurate reporting), and why?

I specifically extended this to the West...though I'll admit because of my own lack of knowledge about such criminals abroad, I was specifically thinking of North America. But Jack the Ripper is some time ago...have there been more recent serial killers that spring to mind? I don't need gory details, just confirmation:)
Harold Shipman supposedly killed over two hundred people... does that count?

No, but England is decidedly Western.
The UK was western a long time before America was, it's true, but the initial post specified American and Canadian examples. I was just pointing out that there's other places in the western world.
As for more recent examples, how about Ian Brady or Peter Sutcliffe?

Serial killers apparently have a type of brain disfunction which is at least partially genetically based, if some of the articles I have read on this are to be believed. It could be aggravated by environmental factors that are more prevalent in Western society, although I tend to doubt this. I suspect that the anonymity provided by massive, highly mobile populations ( almost a peculiarity of Western democracies ) provides the serial killer considerble opportunity, and the means to escape detection.

Harold Shipman supposedly killed over two hundred people... does that count?
Um, yes...I would say it does...that wasn't a case of euthenasia, was it? Because I wouldn't consider Kevorkian to be a serial killer...I really know nothing about Shipman.

Or is there more of a fascination in North America about serial killers, giving them more publicity than they'd find elsewhere?
Yep.

In some countries, such as the USSR, such investigations are kept secret as a matter of routine for public order reasons. One could also argue the approach makes a different sort of sense, as many serial killers are at least partly motivated by a thirst for fame and notoriety. One would never receive that in the Soviet Union, whereas the US would provide the perfect environment in which to reinforce their behaviour.

The UK was western a long time before America was, it's true, but the initial post specified American and Canadian examples. I was just pointing out that there's other places in the western world.
As for more recent examples, how about Ian Brady or Peter Sutcliffe?
Yes well, don't get your back up. The post also went on to extend that to the entire West. I mentioned Canada and the US only, because my husband doesn't claim that it's a Western thing, but tends to blame it just on North America. It wouldn't have made sense for me to change that to 'West' just for the sake of inclusiveness. I figured I'd do that after. And I did.

Brady and Sutcliffe...this is in the UK?

Serial killers apparently have a type of brain disfunction which is at least partially genetically based, if some of the articles I have read on this are to be believed. It could be aggravated by environmental factors that are more prevalent in Western society, although I tend to doubt this. I suspect that the anonymity provided by massive, highly mobile populations ( almost a peculiarity of Western democracies ) provides the serial killer considerble opportunity, and the means to escape detection.
Any sources for these articles? This is interesting, as the normal assumption seems to be that it's a matter of nurture rather than nature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes

here's a crazy German guy...this wasn't (debatably) a serial killer...but he did try...

Yes well, don't get your back up. The post also went on to extend that to the entire West. I mentioned Canada and the US only, because my husband doesn't claim that it's a Western thing, but tends to blame it just on North America. It wouldn't have made sense for me to change that to 'West' just for the sake of inclusiveness. I figured I'd do that after. And I did.

Brady and Sutcliffe...this is in the UK?
Yep. For some reason Myra Hindley gets billed over Brady.

Any sources for these articles? This is interesting, as the normal assumption seems to be that it's a matter of nurture rather than nature.
I watched a pretty interesting four part series on the Nature of Things with David Suzuki that talked about how emotions affect our brains differently. The one (http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/show_emotions.html) that interested me the most was a study done on people who seemed to be unable to control their rage. You could literally see how their brains reacted differently to provocation, and how it seemed that the normal brain was able to stem that tide of rage, while in these people, it was unstoppable. One guy tried to use this as a defence in his murder trial (he killed his ex wife), but it didn't fly. Still...it is interesting.

Um, yes...I would say it does...that wasn't a case of euthenasia, was it? Because I wouldn't consider Kevorkian to be a serial killer...I really know nothing about Shipman.
No all his victims were in good health.. he even stole some of thier jewelry.. he was only caught when trying to forge a will of one of his victims..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Shipman

There is an interactive section in that link I provided...it says that in some people the amygdala overtakes the prefrontal cortex...they literally are incapable of rational thought at that point.

Meh. Terrorists. Many of them have serial killer mentalities, and many of them are from decidedly non western areas...

But do there tend to be more in the West? Actually, I don't know squat about serial killers in Europe either, so I actually am thinking just about the US and Canada. I wonder if it's even possible to compare (as in, are the stats reliable). Or is there more of a fascination in North America about serial killers, giving them more publicity than they'd find elsewhere?
Perhaps it's just better reported in the west. Communist countries, I've been told, didn't like to report crime rates and shatter the illusion that they were a crime-free paradise compared to other nations. Reporting of crimes in rural areas of Africa, S. America and other developing regions is going to be sketchy at best. In the end, I guess there's not enough data to compare rates of serial murder.

No all his victims were in good health.. he even stole some of thier jewelry.. he was only caught when trying to forge a will of one of his victims..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Shipman
I heard of a case in Poland that people who called ambulances were being killed en route because the ambulance drivers were getting bribes from morticians or something...though I kind of think of serial killing as something that sick person would do out of sense of enjoyment or power...not just greed...but the end result is many deaths. I don't know.

Any sources for these articles? This is interesting, as the normal assumption seems to be that it's a matter of nurture rather than nature.
Sadly, no. I just remember reading that brain scans on serial killers showed a type of brain dysfunction. Some leaned toward fetal alcohol syndrome as a possible causitive factor.

Meh. Terrorists. Many of them have serial killer mentalities, and many of them are from decidedly non western areas...
Is there a difference between mass murder and serial killing? I think there is a slight difference...I just can't put my finger on why.

Is there a difference between mass murder and serial killing? I think there is a slight difference...I just can't put my finger on why.
I think in the US law enforcement calls you a serial killer if your killings are spaced out over a longer time frame and a mass murderer if you just snap one day and kill a bunch of people.

Jolt is so bloody slow today!


Sadly, no. I just remember reading that brain scans on serial killers showed a type of brain dysfunction. Some leaned toward fetal alcohol syndrome as a possible causitive factor.
One of the effects of FASD is the inability to understand consequences...there is a lot of research on that. It's pretty bizarre to see...a kid will jump off his desk, really not understanding that it could result in harm. I mean...we're not talking about dismissing the possible consequence...he really doesn't think there is one. I've seen more information on FASD and its effect on in the moment assaults or killings...but not in planned out serial killings.

Hey, there's a neat video clip about murderer's brains and normal brains and their reactions to rage at the link I gave before: The Emotional Brain (http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/show_emotions.html). Click on the interactive feature near the top, go into the anger section, then into multimedia and links, and watch the video by Adriane Raine. That's the part I remember the most from the show.

I think in the US law enforcement calls you a serial killer if your killings are spaced out over a longer time frame and a mass murderer if you just snap one day and kill a bunch of people.
I would definately say there is a difference between some guy going postal, and someone who stalks victims, and plans out their murder. But not all serial murderers plan their murders out it seems...some just keep snapping...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer

A serial killer is someone who commits three or more murders over an extended period of time with cooling-off periods in between. In between their crimes, they appear to be quite normal, a state which Hervey Cleckley and Robert Hare call the "mask of sanity." There is frequently—but not always—a sexual element to the murders. :sniper:

A mass murderer, on the other hand, is an individual who kills three or more people in a single event and in one location. The perpetrators sometimes commit suicide, meaning knowledge of their state of mind and what triggers their actions is often left to more speculation than fact. Mass murderers who are caught sometimes claim they cannot clearly remember the event. :mp5:

Hey thanks! I didn't think to check the definitions:) But the differences make sense.

serial killing is an evolutionary problem rather than cultural one. Evolution favoured us as social animals rather than as pyschopathic ones who could not emphatize although pyschopathy still persists to an extent.

Although I think american culture is so celebratory of violence that it can bring out psychopathic tendencies in people. Especially with those "dey took eur jerbs" gun laws in place:rolleyes:

I've known, and interviewed over a period of years a fairly large number of serial killers and the things they had in common were few. There were a couple of things that all did have though and they include the ability to disassociate themselves from any and all empathy. To the degree that each and everyone I have known, view their targets and potiential targets as something other than human. I.E. cargo, packages, food etc. Another thing they had in common was their targets also represented something in their past that they had come to hate beyond what you and I could consider imaginable. I mean hatred to the point of blind flashes before their eyes at the thought of the origional object or later on someone who may represent or remind them of it. IE A girl with black hair, an elderly lady, a prostitute etc.
These individuals have been around forever they are not a result of what type of government or culture one comes from. Western or "Open" societies simply provide much greater oppourtunity to not only become successful at what some call "their job", but, much greater ability to hide their deeds. Western societies also tend to have a greater ability for bad news to be reported, and we all know how much the media loves to print anything bad.

There is an interactive section in that link I provided...it says that in some people the amygdala overtakes the prefrontal cortex...they literally are incapable of rational thought at that point.
That's interesting. The amygdala's the mammal brain, isn't it?

Eut, thanks anyway.

Well most of the serial killers are overwhelmingly westerners.

I do not know of many serial killer from India or China for that matter and these countries have huge populations. I can only remember one guy "Nagaraj" who was a sexual pervert and raped/killed around 20 women. He was a big news and it was only then many people knew that there is something caled serial killing.

At the risk of sounding conservative, I would say this is due to the lack of family ties in the west. Since an average Indian kid would live with his parents until he is married, parents tend to watch over abnormal behavior. There is almost always a family to fall back on in troubled times. Maybe that is a factor, I don't know.

That's interesting. The amygdala's the mammal brain, isn't it?

Eut, thanks anyway.

Amygdala's also important in our 'theory of mind' - letting us see that other people are _individuals_, with their own minds and knowledge; possible link to the way serial killers dehumanise their victims?

That's interesting. The amygdala's the mammal brain, isn't it?

Eut, thanks anyway.
Hmmm...not sure...I think they refer to it as the reptilian brain. But my last biology course was 10 years ago, so don't quote me!

Well most of the serial killers are overwhelmingly westerners.

I do not know of many serial killer from India or China for that matter and these countries have huge populations. I can only remember one guy "Nagaraj" who was a sexual pervert and raped/killed around 20 women. He was a big news and it was only then many people knew that there is something caled serial killing.

At the risk of sounding conservative, I would say this is due to the lack of family ties in the west. Since an average Indian kid would live with his parents until he is married, parents tend to watch over abnormal behavior. There is almost always a family to fall back on in troubled times. Maybe that is a factor, I don't know.
I'm glad there is at least one dissentor...so my husband doesn't sound like a total nut...he says the same thing as you. He remembers one couple who were axe murderers in Chile, and there are plenty of murders and robberies and such...but he swears there have been almost no cases of serial murders.

Hmmm...not sure...I think they refer to it as the reptilian brain. But my last biology course was 10 years ago, so don't quote me!
I think the brainstem's the reptile brain, though I need to check that.

I'm glad there is at least one dissentor...so my husband doesn't sound like a total nut...he says the same thing as you. He remembers one couple who were axe murderers in Chile, and there are plenty of murders and robberies and such...but he swears there have been almost no cases of serial murders.
I don't know about Chile, but in Brazil there was a serial killer who preyed upon children, especially the children of isolated Amazon natives. He'd kidnap, rape and kill them. Had a pretty long run, never incarcerated for too long, finally killed by a tribe who caught him. It happens everywhere to some extent.

I'm glad there is at least one dissentor...so my husband doesn't sound like a total nut...he says the same thing as you. He remembers one couple who were axe murderers in Chile, and there are plenty of murders and robberies and such...but he swears there have been almost no cases of serial murders.

I think what's most likely is that biology determines whether an individual's more/less likely to wind up psychopathic, experience determines whether they're 'triggered', and culture/environment determines what _form_ their psychopathic behaviours will take. The underlying causes for serial killers might be common to humanity genetically, but serial killing per se might be more likely to be formed by the opportunities and limitations offered by a western lifestyle.

Or, at least, the opportunities/limitations we have to _hear_ about serial killing, and make judgements on it, might be more easily offered in the west!

At the risk of sounding conservative,

You are sounding it, because I agree with you. :p

I would say this is due to the lack of family ties in the west. Since an average Indian kid would live with his parents until he is married, parents tend to watch over abnormal behavior. There is almost always a family to fall back on in troubled times. Maybe that is a factor, I don't know.

As stated, I agree with you, but for something like this, there's more to it. In America, there really isn't a whole lot of places you can fall back on for psychological saftey -- the family was pissed on back in the 1960s. We have horrible divorce rates, and I think the collapse of the family does play a role in this -- as well as other things.

But that's my opinion.

Elgesh']I think what's most likely is that biology determines whether an individual's more/less likely to wind up psychopathic, experience determines whether they're 'triggered', and culture/environment determines what _form_ their psychopathic behaviours will take. The underlying causes for serial killers might be common to humanity genetically, but serial killing per se might be more likely to be formed by the opportunities and limitations offered by a western lifestyle.

Even if it is genetic or biological, you still need a trigger, as you said. At least, that's the explanation that makes sense to me.

Or, at least, the opportunities/limitations we have to _hear_ about serial killing, and make judgements on it, might be more easily offered in the west!

Right, those other countries -- the only thing I might hear about them comes from when I decide to listen into BBC radio or read the BBC website. Western nations simply have an omnipresent media.

serial is an anagram for israel.

Even if it is genetic or biological, you still need a trigger, as you said. At least, that's the explanation that makes sense to me.



Yes, exactly - your _predispostion_ to psychopathy will be inherent to you, you'll be triggered by - whatever, stress, life events etc etc, whatever it may be. But the _form_ your illness takes varies from culture to culture. In the west, the form your psychopathic behaviour takes might be serial killing in, say, 1% of cases, in another culture, maybe 'serial killing' is only the result in 0.05% of cases; it's just more likely to take on different forms.

Its because we live in a society that teaches fear, promotes violence, and sets aside anyone that is not of the norm, meaning anyone with any disorders. thos three things i think promotes killing, even serial killing.

serial is an anagram for israel.


wow...good job with that mind bending work..and your point would be?

I often have this argument with my husband. Every time we hear a new grizzly story of multiple murder, or kidnappings, torture and murder, my husband makes a comment about it being a US or Canadian thing. I don't just mean your run of the mill murder in the heat of the moment, or whatever...I'm mean the true sick people like Homolka, Bundy et al. I argue that we probably just don't hear about it happening in other countries...either because it isn't reported, or we just don't get that news. But I don't know. What causes people to become serial killers? Is there something about Western living that encourages it? Are we so bored that we invent these sick pastimes? Part of me thinks there might be some link, but I can't quite bring myself to believe its a very strong one. What do you think? Please keep it civil folks.

There was a show I saw not too long ago that shows that most countries have serial killers, and most are loathe to admit it. There were examples from many countries, from Russia to Brazil. Including guys who ate children, etc., and women serial killers.

Serial killers are both born AND raised - it's a combination of the two. Not sure what causes someone to get a thrill from killing comparable or better than sex, but there are ways to identify these people when they are young.

Profiles vary, but a common theme amongst serial killers is the "triad".

1. Bedwetting past the age of 8 (and continuing through adolesence).
2. Firestarting (an obsession with playing with fire).
3. Torture or killing of small animals while young; serious physical abuse of siblings.

While not all people who have these three elements in common are serial killers, nearly all serial killers have those three elements in common in their childhood.

Past that, not all serial killers are alike, nor do they all kill for the same reason. The common factor is that they cannot live without killing on a regular basis, and feel pleasure from killing in a certain way.

Well most of the serial killers are overwhelmingly westerners.

I do not know of many serial killer from India or China for that matter and these countries have huge populations. I can only remember one guy "Nagaraj" who was a sexual pervert and raped/killed around 20 women. He was a big news and it was only then many people knew that there is something caled serial killing.

At the risk of sounding conservative, I would say this is due to the lack of family ties in the west. Since an average Indian kid would live with his parents until he is married, parents tend to watch over abnormal behavior. There is almost always a family to fall back on in troubled times. Maybe that is a factor, I don't know.
This site seems to have a list of Indian serial killers.

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkiller_index/by_country/in.php

Chinese too.

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkiller_index/by_country/cn.php

wow...good job with that mind bending work..and your point would be?i sense hostility in your post. your name spelled backwards maliZ=malice is quite fitting. please try to be more civil.

Andrei Chikatilo anyone?
I personally wouldn't much consider Russia to be "Western" but such is my understanding.

Andrei Chikatilo anyone?
I personally wouldn't much consider Russia to be "Western" but such is my understanding.
Russia also gave us the terminator, Anatoli Onoprienko.

This site seems to have a list of Indian serial killers.

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkiller_index/by_country/in.php

Chinese too.

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkiller_index/by_country/cn.php

Many cases cited in that link are very sketchy.

I dunno if Sobhraj qualifies as a psychopathic serial killer or not. I have followed his case and he was a criminal doing drug running. His killings are related to his drug business and not strictly a serial killing.

There was this other name "CLARK Henry Lovell William" around 1930s, who is most certainly not of an Indian ethnicity.

And then there is this "werewolf killer" with no details. I think it refers to a spate of killings in suburban Delhi which sparked of rumours of half-man half-animal creature and it became sort of an urban legend.

Anywayz, all things considered, 15-20 serial killers in such a big country is pretty less, in my opinion.

Many cases cited in that link are very sketchy.

I dunno if Sobhraj qualifies as a psychopathic serial killer or not. I have followed his case and he was a criminal doing drug running. His killings are related to his drug business and not strictly a serial killing.

There was this other name "CLARK Henry Lovell William" around 1930s, who is most certainly not of an Indian ethnicity.

And then there is this "werewolf killer" with no details. I think it refers to a spate of killings in suburban Delhi which sparked of rumours of half-man half-animal creature and it became sort of an urban legend.

Anywayz, all things considered, 15-20 serial killers in such a big country is pretty less, in my opinion.
I agree on the sketchyness of some cases, and the list isn't a long one.

According to "The Encyclopedia of Serial Killers", killing in the service of a criminal enterprise still counts. They list several Mafia enforcers and hitmen.

You're right in that there don't seem to be many Indian serial killers. I would assume that there are several out there that simply haven't been caught, and that in a big nation like India killings in remote rural areas might not make it to the press. My only point is that serial killings occur everywhere, though they may be more frequent in some places.

I often have this argument with my husband. Every time we hear a new grizzly story of multiple murder, or kidnappings, torture and murder, my husband makes a comment about it being a US or Canadian thing. I don't just mean your run of the mill murder in the heat of the moment, or whatever...I'm mean the true sick people like Homolka, Bundy et al. I argue that we probably just don't hear about it happening in other countries...either because it isn't reported, or we just don't get that news. But I don't know. What causes people to become serial killers? Is there something about Western living that encourages it? Are we so bored that we invent these sick pastimes? Part of me thinks there might be some link, but I can't quite bring myself to believe its a very strong one. What do you think? Please keep it civil folks.

Rest assured. Serial killing is not just a western phenomena. Moses Sithole and Javad Iqbel are two prolific examples of non-Western serial killers.

Also Andrei Chikatilo, but I saw him mentioned already.

...
1. Bedwetting past the age of 8 (and continuing through adolesence).
2. Firestarting (an obsession with playing with fire).
3. Torture or killing of small animals while young; serious physical abuse of siblings.
...

I used to work at a rehabilitation center/home/camp/institution, for very troubled teens. There were individuals there showing those symptoms. Often with a history of being mistreated as infants, thus permanently damaged.

Very Serial Killer Material, especially if left unattended. Maybe they´ll visit me later...

Btw, does Scandinavia do serial killings?

.... Moses Sithole....
Is that a real name?????

Is that a real name?????

He was South Africa's biggest serial killer. The name might have been an aggravating factor. :p

There were no serial killers back in the days when people were nomadic. Too much of your energy was needed just to survive. So let's smash the cities, let anarchy weed out the weak for a while, and get the population down to a level where we can live like that again. All just to avoid serial killers. Oh. And infomercials.

There were no serial killers back in the days when people were nomadic. Too much of your energy was needed just to survive. So let's smash the cities, let anarchy weed out the weak for a while, and get the population down to a level where we can live like that again. All just to avoid serial killers. Oh. And infomercials.
Maybe the serial killers just killed people from other tribes and were hailed as heros by their own tribe for getting rid of the competition for resources.

I often have this argument with my husband. Every time we hear a new grizzly story of multiple murder, or kidnappings, torture and murder, my husband makes a comment about it being a US or Canadian thing. I don't just mean your run of the mill murder in the heat of the moment, or whatever...I'm mean the true sick people like Homolka, Bundy et al. I argue that we probably just don't hear about it happening in other countries...either because it isn't reported, or we just don't get that news. But I don't know. What causes people to become serial killers? Is there something about Western living that encourages it? Are we so bored that we invent these sick pastimes? Part of me thinks there might be some link, but I can't quite bring myself to believe its a very strong one. What do you think? Please keep it civil folks.

no. look up Charles Sobhraj.

Anti-social Personality Disorder (sociopathy) is a mental disease found in all parts of the world.

Is it weird that so many people on this forum know so much about serial killers?

Maybe the serial killers just killed people from other tribes and were hailed as heros by their own tribe for getting rid of the competition for resources.
If you want to extend that, then soldiers today are just modern day serial killers.

But I doubt that's what people want to hear.

If you want to extend that, then soldiers today are just modern day serial killers.

But I doubt that's what people want to hear.
The difference is that soldiers don't take it upon themselves to just wake up one day, buy a plane ticket to another country and start killing their people. They take orders from the government, which is supposed to represent the will of the nation.

Back then I'm thinking some random guy would just see the opportunity to ambush a couple of hunters from another tribe and just do it because killing is fun to him. When his tribe finds out they treat him like the great warrior rather than a crazy killer.

The difference is that soldiers don't take it upon themselves to just wake up one day, buy a plane ticket to another country and start killing their people. They take orders from the government, which is supposed to represent the will of the nation.

Back then I'm thinking some random guy would just see the opportunity to ambush a couple of hunters from another tribe and just do it because killing is fun to him. When his tribe finds out they treat him like the great warrior rather than a crazy killer.
Yes and some crazy killer could decide to join the army and then ambush a bunch of people, slaughter them and be given a medal.

Yes and some crazy killer could decide to join the army and then ambush a bunch of people, slaughter them and be given a medal.
If it's done with the consent of his government then he deserves one.

If it's done with the consent of his government then he deserves one.
And if its done with the consent of his people, then he deserves to be treated like a great warrior. Besides there wasn't that much tribal killing anyway. It was more like one upsmanship. Pranks. Counting coup. Stealing to show that you were fast and brave enough to do it.

And if its done with the consent of his people, then he deserves to be treated like a great warrior. Besides there wasn't that much tribal killing anyway. It was more like one upsmanship. Pranks. Counting coup. Stealing to show that you were fast and brave enough to do it.
Not according to an issue of Skeptic magazine from a couple years back. It pretty much debunked the whole peacefull savage thing. One of the best pieces of evidence was that most all male remains from that time show partly healed, or unhealed (fatal) injuries consistent with armed conflict with other people.

Yes and some crazy killer could decide to join the army and then ambush a bunch of people, slaughter them and be given a medal.

(what Drunk Commies said)

I'm glad there is at least one dissentor...so my husband doesn't sound like a total nut...he says the same thing as you. He remembers one couple who were axe murderers in Chile, and there are plenty of murders and robberies and such...but he swears there have been almost no cases of serial murders.
Chinese Serial Killings: http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501031124-543838,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3273585.stm
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-12/26/content_293676.htm
(Unsourced - from Orgrish) February 16, 2004
China Executes Serial Killer
A man convicted of 67 murders was executed Saturday after what Chinese media said might be the country\'s longest, deadliest killing spree in modern history.

Japan: http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=2&id=356229&page=5
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/print/news/nn07-2005/nn20050722b7.htm
http://www.newcriminologist.co.uk/news.asp?id=-899497239
South Korea: http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/weird/yoo_young_cheol/1.html
Thailand/Nepal: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/12/10/wsobhraj10.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/12/10/ixportal.html

Mexico: http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=31538

Serial Killer Crime Index: http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkiller_index/by_country/index.php list no Chilean Serial killers (unless you count Pinochet). There's a good Country-by-country breakdown there.

No, not a Western Phenom, just a Western News Leader. :(

Not according to an issue of Skeptic magazine from a couple years back. It pretty much debunked the whole peacefull savage thing. One of the best pieces of evidence was that most all male remains from that time show partly healed, or unhealed (fatal) injuries consistent with armed conflict with other people.
Hey man I didn't say things were peaceful. There was plenty of fighting for sure. And life was rough, and sometimes people went to war over territory, or whatever. But this idea that somehow the whites saved the poor Indians from exterminating eachother is a crock of shit. Not that you said that I'm just saying. But plenty of tribes intermarried too or lived together fairly peacefully. That doesn't mean that boys weren't boys. Just like young shits brawl today in the bars for fun, they did it then too. This is a little different issue than serial killing though.

also... if this nut job goes and murders a bunch of women and children (or men who are non-combatants) in cold blood, his actions should seen as that: murder, unsanctioned by the rules of war.

On the other hand, if he uses his mental disability to fuel his rage against terrorists/enemy combatants and only kills them... then aren't his actions supported by the general rules of war? I mean so long as he's not killing detainees or something like that.. if he's shooting enemies who have the wherewithal to shoot back, then his actions should be considered sanctioned.

also... if this nut job goes and murders a bunch of women and children (or men who are non-combatants) in cold blood, his actions should seen as that: murder, unsanctioned by the rules of war.

On the other hand, if he uses his mental disability to fuel his rage against terrorists/enemy combatants and only kills them... then aren't his actions supported by the general rules of war? I mean so long as he's not killing detainees or something like that.. if he's shooting enemies who have the wherewithal to shoot back, then his actions should be considered sanctioned.So we should just convince people who are serial killers to join the army? Is that like noone is good at everything, but everyone is good at something?

Lets see here...

AHMAD SURADJI - 42 murders in North Sumatra. Victims: Women.

Suradji was in Indonesian witch doctor who buried his victims near his house, with the hekp of his three wives. He had a reputation for paranormal powers and preyed on women who secretly asked hm to cast spells on their husbands or families. He charged each one $200 - 400, then buried them up to the waist in a nearby sugercane plantation as part of the ritual. He'd then strangle them with cable, strip them and drink their saliva. Arrested in 1997, he told police he needed to kill 70 women to get magical powers. Although only 40 bodies were found, over 80 women are still missing in the area.

ANATOLY ONOPRIENKO - 52 murders in Ukraine. Victims: Families in remote houses.


When the police finally arrested Anatoly Onoprienko on 16 April, 1996, the mentally disturbed former forestry student denied he was 'The Terminator', slayer of over 52 people and the Ukraine's most prolific killer, although he did cop to eight deaths between 1989 and 1995. When he was taken into custody he had a 12-bor shotgun matching the one used in over 40 of the killings, and jewellry and video players belonging to some of the victims. His modus operandi was to find families in isolated houses and shoot them at close range, torching the houses afterwards and blasting anyone who was unlucky enough to witness his violent outbursts. During a three month rampage near the Polish border he killed over 40 people in one village, but remained at large despite the mobilisation of an army division and armoured personnell carriers. His reason? Inner voices told him to do it, apparently.

ANDREI CHIKATILO - 52+ murders in Russia. Victims: Children.

Chikatilo was a teacher and a members of the Communist Party, but as he grew older he began stalking children, disembowelling and mutilating them. His crimes were overlooked for so long because he was a Party members and partly because the Russians weren't keen to admit a child killing sadist was stalking their utopia. Chikatilo's trial in 1994, full of descriptions of how he'd boil and eat testicles and nipples, was the first celebrity serial killer trial in the former USSR. There's a film version, Citizen X, with Donald Sutherland. He was killed by firing squad in 1994.

BRUNO LUDKE - 86 murders in Germany. Victims: Women.

Between 1928 and 1943 Ludke, a laundry van driver, strangled and stabbed over 80 women, with lttle discrimination. Having been arrested for killing one woman, he promptly confessed to 85 other murders. The Nazis having already sterilised him as a mental defective and suspected rapist, could not indict him because he was insane - as Ludke delighted in pointing out. They solved the problem by sending him to a research hospital in Vienna, where he was used as a human guinea-pig. On 8 April 1944 one of the experiments in which he was involved in proved fatal.

DELFINA & MARIA DE JESUS GONZALES - 91+ murders in Guanajuato, Mexico. Victims: Victims: Prostitutes and men.

Sisters Delfina and Maria ran the Rancho El Angel in Mexico. They recruited working girls, got them hooked on drugs and forced them to serve the perverse and humiliating desires of their clientele. If girls became too ill, damaged by repeated rape or lost their looks, they killed them. They also offed visitors flashed over large wads. the police picked up Josefina Guuierez, a procuress, on suspicion of kidnapping young girls in the Guanajuato area, and she gave up the sisters. When police raided the bordello they uncovered the remains of 11 men, 80 women and several foetuses. the sisters were sentanced to 40 years each.

NIKOLAI DZHURMONGALIEV - 100 murders in Russia. Victims: Women.

They like cannibalism in Russia - perhaps it's the poor state of the local scoff. NIKOLAI DZHURMONGALIEV - known as 'Metal Fang' because of his white metal false teeth - is the king of the Soviet cannibals, slaughtering and serving up around 100 women to his dinner guests in the Russian republic of Kazakhstan. he believed women and prostitution were the root of all evil. After friends discovered a head and intestines in the kitchen he was sent to an insane asylum in Tashkent, from which he bribed his way out. he was then incarcarated after being found guilty of only seven murders, but escaped in 1989. The Russian authorities never admitted he'd got out, and spent two years trying to recapture him, eventually tracking him to Uzbekistan. Interior Minister Colonel Yuri Dubyagin described him as: "absolutly normal, but at one point [he] got a taste of female meat." An attitude which may explain why there are so many high-scoring serial killers in Russia. He was held not responsable for his actions, he's back in the loony bin.

PEDRO ALONSO LOPEZ - 300+ murders in Peru, Columbia and Ecuador. Victims: Young girls, mostly pre-teens.

Lopez was kicked out by his prostitute mother at the age of eight, after she caught him fondling his younger sister. He was picked up by a paedophile and raped, and was laer gang-banged in prison, retaliating by killing three of his rapists.
By 1978 it's reckoned he'd killed at least 100 girls in Peru; when attention fell on him he moved back to his native Columbia and then on to Ecuador. Here he killed three girls a week on average, preferring them because they were "more gentle and trusting, more innocent." In 1980 uncovered one of his many victims' graves and he was rapidly arrested and tricked into confession whilst being held in prison.
At first police refused to believe the numbers he mentioned but he quickly identified the sites of more than 50 burials, lending credence to his claim as the most prolific serial killer to date. He was convicted of murder in Ecuador, Lopez will languish in prison for the rest of his life.

The majority of the most prolific serial killers in History weren't from North America. Hardly an isolated thing.

Serial killers are often white, heterosexual males in their twenties and thirties who are sexually dysfunctional and have low self-esteem. This is obviously not true in all cases. I have provided a partial list of known serial killers.

The number in parenthesis is the estimated number of murders.

The locations are the serial killers' basic origins and do not necessarily indicate where killings took place. Some are more specific than others.

Pedro Alonso Lopez (300+)-Colombia
Henry Lee Lucas & Ottis Toole (6-200+)-US
H.H. Holmes (200+)-US
Gilles de Rais (140+)-France
Luis Alfredo Gavarito (140)-Colombia
Dr. Jack Kevorkian (130)-US (status as a serial killer highly controversial)
Hu Wanlin (100+)-China
Pee Wee Gaskins (100+)-US
Javed Iqbal (100)-Pakistan
Delfina & Maria de Jesus Gonzales (91+)-Mexico
Bruno Ludke (80)-Germany
Michael Swango (60 +/-)-US
Andrei Chikatilo (52+)-Russia
Anatoly Onoprienko (52)-Ukraine
Ahmad Suradji (42)-North Sumatra
Gerald Stano (41)-US
Richard "Iceman" Kuklinski (40+)-US
Erszebet Bathory (40+)-Hungary
Moses Sithole (38+)- South Africa
Donald Harvey (34+)
Fernando Hernandez Leyva-Mexico
John Wayne Gacy (33)-US
Vasili Komaroff (33)-Russia
Jane Toppan (31+)-US
Gerard John Schaefer (30+)-US
Karl Denke (30+)-Germany
Micajah & Wiley Harpe (30+)-US
Patrick W. Kearney (28+)-US
Wayne Williams (28)-US
Fritz Haarmann (27+)-Germany
Roger Andermatt (27)-Switzerland
Dean Corll (27)-US
Juan Martin Cantu (26)-US
Bruce Lee (26)-British (not to be confused with martial artist)
Leonard Lake & Charles Ng-US
Juan Corona (25)-US
Marcel Petiot (24+)-France
Bela Kiss (24)-Hungary
Helene Jegado (23+)-France
Ted Bundy (22+)-US
Arnfinn Nesset(22+)-Norway
Earl Nelson (22+)-Canada
Norman Afzal Simons (22)-South Africa
Carl Panzram (21)-Africa
Thierry Paulin & Jean-Thierry Mathurin (20+) -France
Phoolan Devi (20+)-India
Charles Sobhraj-Asia
Lucian Staniak (20)-Poland
Sasha & Lyudmila Spesivtsev (19+)-Russia
Sipho Agmatir Thwala(19)-South Africa
Vadim Yershov (19)-Russia
Gerd Wenzinger (19)-Germany
Sergei Ryakhovsky (19)-Russia
Larry Eyler (19)-US
Paul John Knowles (18+)-US
Christopher Mhlengwa Zikode-South Africa
Joel Rifkin (17+)-US
Leszek Pekalski (17+)-Poland
Donato Bilancia (17)-Italy
Robert Hansen (17)-US (Alaska)
Jeffrey Dahmer (17)-US
Eddie Lee Moseley (16+)-US
Douglas Edward Gretzler & Willie Luther Steelman (16+)-US
Jose Antonio Rodriguez Vega (16+)-Spain
Richard Ramirez (16+)-US
Randy Kraft (16+)-US
Herb Baumeister (16)-US
Dr. Harold Shipman (15-300)-Manchester
Earl Frederick (16)-US
Dennis Nilsen (14)-London
Elias Xitavhudzi (16)-South Africa
William Burke & William Hare (16)-Scotland
Thomas Quick (15+)-Sweden
Albert Fish (15)-US
Joseph P. Franklin (15+)-US
Johann Hoch (15+)-Germany
Elifasi Msomi (15)-South Africa
William Bonin (14+)-US
Joe Ball (14+)-US

The list goes on, but I stopped here because this just plain got tiresome. You get the idea.

Back when serials killers really hit the public consciousness, with Bundy and Gacey and that lot, a bunch of articles appeared in various journals about research on psychopaths and what made them what they are. There was an interesting theory running around that psychopaths are not made but born; that they are not actually insane but that they think completely differently; and that actually very few psychopaths become killers.

According to this theory, the abusive childhood with sexual trauma and/or severe neglect scenario will likely make a criminal or predator of just about anyone, but you only get these elaborately ritualized serial killers if the childhood victim is also a psychopath.

Also according to the theory, the psychopathic mind is distinguished by a total lack of empathy for others and a kind of assumption that the people around you are not like you at all, that you have nothing in common with them and don't have to care about them. There is also usually above-average intelligence, but it turns out not to be as advanced or as well organized as it seems at first -- apparently, psychopaths love to be thought of as experts on things, but if a real expert examines them it will become clear that they've only skimmed the topic and are bullshitting the rest. They want the credit and the admiration, but they don't want to go to the effort. And they also show a love of elaborate schemes that let them manipulate and trick others, to show off how smart they are. Apparently, this pattern occurs in a fairly steady percentage of the human population, but only a tiny portion of them will ever become violent. However, when they do, watch out -- because that's how you get acid vats, and piles of corpses under the house, and heads in the refrigerator.

If this theory is correct, then psychopathy is not a mental illness but a certain kind of brain-wiring and it is likely to occur in any race or culture. This begs the question then of why the serial killer profile works -- or does it? Is law enforcement missing non-white male serial killers? Or is there something in Western culture that makes it more likely that white males will suffer the kind of early abuse that is likely to drive them to violence later?

And finally, as scary-creepy as I think psychopaths are, apparently law enforcement experts are more scared by sociopaths, which, it seems, are a different kind of scary animal.

Maybe this has been said before (was away for a few days and haven't been reading the posts) but the reason that serial killers seem more prevalent in the West is simply because that's where they have more publicity and where serial killers are more quickly identified and stopped.

Other countries have serial killers too, but in many cases murders are not identified as serial crimes and can go on for years and years until the killer finally gives himself up saying "geez, guys! is someone going to get me? what does a guy have to do to get noticed around here?". In fact many of the most successful serial killers come from third world countries where they can work unhindered.

Phoolan Devi (20+)-India

Err..Phoolan Devi was a dacoit. She was a lady who was victimised and took to dacoitry. Later she was given general amnesty and she contested in elections and became a member of the Indian parliament. She was shot dead by her enemy gang a few years ago.

There is an excellent movie on her called Bandit Queen by Shekhar Kapoor (the guy who directed the movie Elizabeth).

Err..Phoolan Devi was a dacoit. She was a lady who was victimised and took to dacoitry. Later she was given general amnesty and she contested in elections and became a member of the Indian parliament. She was shot dead by her enemy gang a few years ago.

There is an excellent movie on her called Bandit Queen by Shekhar Kapoor (the guy who directed the movie Elizabeth).

I believe the main reason she was on the list was for her (alleged?) killing of 22 or so men in a village of Uttar Pradesh. There are a few names on there who are arguable if you ask me.

People are people, whether they be in the West, the East, North, or South.

Its because we live in a society that teaches fear, promotes violence, and sets aside anyone that is not of the norm, meaning anyone with any disorders. thos three things i think promotes killing, even serial killing.

Gangsta rap comes to mind...