NationStates Jolt Archive

From the most recent Harris Poll, (http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB113579153636833083-Xd1XL6NfsXVhzTL0_JKthJ9Wiic_20061229.html?mod=blogs)

24% Of American adults STILL think that some of the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqi.
22% STILL think that Hussein personally helped plan 9/11
26% STILL think that Hussein had WMD at the time of invasion.
41% STILL think that Hussein had close ties to al Qaeda.
....



I'm sorry, but isn't a central precept of the Democratic process something about the will of an INFORMED electorate?

We just had this thread. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=461600)

We just had this thread.


Sorry.

As you were then....

That's okay--I should have bumped mine first thing this morning.:D

That's okay--I should have bumped mine first thing this morning.:D


You could. But mine has a MUCH catchier title than yours..... :p

From the most recent Harris Poll, (http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB113579153636833083-Xd1XL6NfsXVhzTL0_JKthJ9Wiic_20061229.html?mod=blogs)

24% Of American adults STILL think that some of the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqi.
22% STILL think that Hussein personally helped plan 9/11
26% STILL think that Hussein had WMD at the time of invasion.
41% STILL think that Hussein had close ties to al Qaeda.
....



I'm sorry, but isn't a central precept of the Democratic process something about the will of an INFORMED electorate?
Saddam Hussein was not involved in 9/11, but the 9/11 commission did rule he had ties with Al Qaeda. His ties with Zarqawi went back at least a decade.

There is a reason the war has officially been called "The Global War on Terrorism." We are fighting terrorism, not just the people who planned 9/11. Saddam had ties with Al Qaeda (even though he did not plan 9/11.) The fact he had ties with them made him a threat as he was harboring terrorists (see Abu Nidal) and giving them money to carry out attacks.

You're right. We need an informed electorate. THat means you should probably read the 9/11 commission or actually learn some of the history of Saddam's actions to support terrorism abroad. I mean you don't want to be a hipocryte, do you?

How's this for fact free.
45% of Americans still believe the Biblical account of how life began.

Connect two images frequently enough, and people will Believe, just because of a vague memory that they saw the two things before.

Saddam Hussein was not involved in 9/11, but the 9/11 commission did rule he had ties with Al Qaeda. His ties with Zarqawi went back at least a decade.

Well, you may want to borrow my copy of the 9/11 commission's report. As they said no such thing. In fact what they said was that Saddam had NO connections to Al Qaeda. In fact Zarqawi didn't pledge allegiance to Al Qeada until the invasion of Iraq in 2003 and that is also a fact. In fact the 9/11 commission even said there was no meeting between any top level Iraqi official and Atta prior to 9/11 as was first tried to be sold to the American public by Bush. They proved it wasn't true based on cell phone calls. So, while you say others should read the 9/11 commission report, it begs the question, why haven't you?

As for any support Saddam may of had for terrorism, it wasn't "international terrorism" his only support was to the widows of men who committed suicide bombings in Israel, and only after the fact and only to the family. What Iraq had to do in a regional conflict, where the Israeli's are more than able to cope with themselves has nothing, I repeat nothing to do with the global war on terrorism. 9/11 is why the Americans started a global war on terrorism, not because of Israel. It's apples and oranges.

How's this for fact free.
45% of Americans still believe the Biblical account of how life began.

For most people in their everday lives, does it really matter how life began?

Most people take medicine and receive medical treatment without knowing how any of it works - should they all really know how their internal biology works?

Sometimes, ignorance is irrelevant - sure, you want a smart schoolteacher, but the guy who works on your car isn't teaching school or making public policy. And "how life began" won't affect his skill in changing your tires even if he believes in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

A suprisingly large number of people in the developing world believe that the Moon landing was fake. Does it matter? In their everyday lives, does it really matter?

Right at the beginning of our occupation of Iraq, the American public was told that this Zarquawi (sp?) guy had no connections to Al-Queada, that he wanted their backing but couldn't get it, and that there was no international terrorist prescence there. Now, years later, everyone who opposes us must be connected to this terrorist group.

Right at the beginning of our occupation of Iraq, the American public was told that this Zarquawi (sp?) guy had no connections to Al-Queada, that he wanted their backing but couldn't get it, and that there was no international terrorist prescence there. Now, years later, everyone who opposes us must be connected to this terrorist group.

That's because it's politically incorrect to call Islamic extremists "terrorists". So they have to get a name and a face to attach to hundreds of thousands of disparate people in various groups around the world.

Right at the beginning of our occupation of Iraq, the American public was told that this Zarquawi (sp?) guy had no connections to Al-Queada, that he wanted their backing but couldn't get it, and that there was no international terrorist prescence there. Now, years later, everyone who opposes us must be connected to this terrorist group.

Yup, pretty much bang on the money. As long as we are dealing in facts, Zarqawi actually lived in the "no-fly zone" prior to the invasion basically Saddam had no control over that area and was basically protected by the Americans.. but I bet they won't be teaching that in American history class any time soon..

For most people in their everday lives, does it really matter how life began?
It does. See, the moment an anti-science tradition is formed in a populace, taking shots at science becomes a politically rewarding activity. The rot spreads. Pretty soon you're losing whole fields of research to foreign markets and the remainder has a lower status, causing fewer people consider it. What's more, major policy decisions become more difficult, if not impossible, as an ignorant and stubborn public cannot be convinced of its necessity.

A splendid example is Singapore setting itself up as an ethics-free biotech research park, for all the Americans hampered by their government. Another is the UK facing an energy crisis within years, because the public know nothing about energy infrastructure and exercise a veto over substation and power line contruction - I won't even go into the nuclear debate.

As far as I am concerned, if people are going to reap the fruits of technological advancement, they had better give credit where it is due.

Well, you may want to borrow my copy of the 9/11 commission's report. As they said no such thing. In fact what they said was that Saddam had NO connections to Al Qaeda. In fact Zarqawi didn't pledge allegiance to Al Qeada until the invasion of Iraq in 2003 and that is also a fact. In fact the 9/11 commission even said there was no meeting between any top level Iraqi official and Atta prior to 9/11 as was first tried to be sold to the American public by Bush. They proved it wasn't true based on cell phone calls. So, while you say others should read the 9/11 commission report, it begs the question, why haven't you?

As for any support Saddam may of had for terrorism, it wasn't "international terrorism" his only support was to the widows of men who committed suicide bombings in Israel, and only after the fact and only to the family. What Iraq had to do in a regional conflict, where the Israeli's are more than able to cope with themselves has nothing, I repeat nothing to do with the global war on terrorism. 9/11 is why the Americans started a global war on terrorism, not because of Israel. It's apples and oranges.

Exactly.

Further more, it is highly likely that Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein had very dim views of each other. Saddam stood for many things that Al Qaeda are so very strongly against; for instance, Saddam was largely secular and Saddam was a pan-Arab nationalist. It is certain that Osama Bin Laden is very much against both of these things. Equally, Saddam hated religious fundamentalists, and would therefore been extremely suspecious of Al-Qaeda (as religious fundamentalism would threaten his regime, which allowed things such as alcohol and in comparitive terms, rights for women).

...his regime, which allowed things such as alcohol and in comparitive terms, rights for women).

OMG....the PigDog! A libertarian(of sorts)! What was his stance on gayness?

Connect two images frequently enough, and people will Believe, just because of a vague memory that they saw the two things before.

Saddama :p

For most people in their everday lives, does it really matter how life began?

Most people take medicine and receive medical treatment without knowing how any of it works - should they all really know how their internal biology works?

Sometimes, ignorance is irrelevant - sure, you want a smart schoolteacher, but the guy who works on your car isn't teaching school or making public policy. And "how life began" won't affect his skill in changing your tires even if he believes in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

A suprisingly large number of people in the developing world believe that the Moon landing was fake. Does it matter? In their everyday lives, does it really matter?
So, let's review, shall we?

Re DAILY LIFE: You believe that it is not necessary to know things that you don't have to deal with in every day life. Since we don't think about the origin of life every day, it doesn't matter if we don't know anything about it at all. Similarly, because we don't get arrested every day, it shouldn't be necessary for us to know anything about the law. Or because we don't need to recite the story of Washington crossing the Delaware every day, we shouldn't trouble ourselves to know our nation's history. Uh-huh.

Re SHOULD THEY ALL REALLY KNOW HOW THEIR INTERNAL BIOLOGY WORKS: You also believe that it is not necessary for people to know why they are sick, or whether they are sick or healthy, or what constitutes health and how to get and stay that way, or whether their illness is minor or serious, or whether the people they love are sick and what to do about it. They don't need to know what they should eat or not eat, or how germs work and how to avoid infection or spreading diseases among others. They don't need to know how babies get made or why their joints start hurting as they get old. But you think it's okay for people to take medecine without asking what's in it or why they should take it. They don't need to know, for instance, that Vioxx causes heart problems, or that thalidymide will deform their babies.

Re IGNORANCE IS IRRELEVANT: You also believe that people only need to be educated to do whatever it is they are fated in life to do. A teacher gets to learn things, but a mechanic doesn't have to. Of course, you don't say who decides who gets to be a teacher and who can only be a mechanic. You also don't say who the teacher will be teaching, if not the children of mechanics. I mean, after all, they're only mechanics. Why bother to educate them? What right have they to expect to read literature in their spare time, or make informed decisions about their healthcare, or about their government, or even to invent an improved engine component? How extraordinarily Brave New World of you.

Actually, DK, it DOES matter that people are ignorant. It matters every day, in their everyday lives. It matters when it puts them at risk of being exploited by employers and politicians, of being killed by terrorists or by epidemics, of being made sick by industrial pollution, of losing their jobs to better educated foreigners.

There are two kinds of ignorance. There's the thoughtlessness that comes with lack of knowledge, from poor education.

And then there's what you displayed right here -- the deliberate thoughtlessness that comes from just not giving a shit, from being complacently certain that, once you know that you know best, you don't need to know anything else about anything or anyone.

But tell me this, DK: Just who the hell do you think you are to tell anyone in the world what they need to know in life?