NationStates Jolt Archive

COMMENTARY: OMG! There was a plan to invade Canada should the US have become involved in a war over trade with England! Actually, this is no big surprise, since there are operation plans ( OpPlans ) for virtually every contingency the US military can dream up. Makes for fascinating reading, though. :D


Raiding the Icebox
Behind Its Warm Front, the United States Made Cold Calculations to Subdue Canada

By Peter Carlson
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, December 30, 2005; Page C01

Invading Canada won't be like invading Iraq: When we invade Canada, nobody will be able to grumble that we didn't have a plan.

The United States government does have a plan to invade Canada. It's a 94-page document called "Joint Army and Navy Basic War Plan -- Red," with the word SECRET stamped on the cover. It's a bold plan, a bodacious plan, a step-by-step plan to invade, seize and annex our neighbor to the north. It goes like this:

First, we send a joint Army-Navy overseas force to capture the port city of Halifax, cutting the Canadians off from their British allies.

Then we seize Canadian power plants near Niagara Falls, so they freeze in the dark.

Then the U.S. Army invades on three fronts -- marching from Vermont to take Montreal and Quebec, charging out of North Dakota to grab the railroad center at Winnipeg, and storming out of the Midwest to capture the strategic nickel mines of Ontario.

Meanwhile, the U.S. Navy seizes the Great Lakes and blockades Canada's Atlantic and Pacific ports.

At that point, it's only a matter of time before we bring these Molson-swigging, maple-mongering Zamboni drivers to their knees! Or, as the official planners wrote, stating their objective in bold capital letters: "ULTIMATELY TO GAIN COMPLETE CONTROL."

* * *

It sounds like a joke but it's not. War Plan Red is real. It was drawn up and approved by the War Department in 1930, then updated in 1934 and 1935. It was declassified in 1974 and the word "SECRET" crossed out with a heavy pencil. Now it sits in a little gray box in the National Archives in College Park, available to anybody, even Canadian spies. They can photocopy it for 15 cents a page.

War Plan Red was actually designed for a war with England. In the late 1920s, American military strategists developed plans for a war with Japan (code name Orange), Germany (Black), Mexico (Green) and England (Red). The Americans imagined a conflict between the United States (Blue) and England over international trade: "The war aim of RED in a war with BLUE is conceived to be the definite elimination of BLUE as an important economic and commercial rival."

In the event of war, the American planners figured that England would use Canada (Crimson) -- then a quasi-pseudo-semi-independent British dominion -- as a launching pad for "a direct invasion of BLUE territory." That invasion might come overland, with British and Canadian troops attacking Buffalo, Detroit and Albany. Or it might come by sea, with amphibious landings on various American beaches -- including Rehoboth and Ocean City, both of which were identified by the planners as "excellent" sites for a Brit beachhead.

[ This article is FIVE pages long! To read the rest of the article, go here (http://www.military.com/earlybrief/0,,,00.html). ]

Then we seize Canadian power plants near Niagara Falls, so they freeze in the dark.
These days that would be a war crime, so they will need to update it further.

These days that would be a war crime, so they will need to update it further.
Heh! Well, apparently it was discontinued back in the 1940s, so you're in the clear. Besides, denying heat to Canadians would constitute cruel and unusual punishment. :p

Why does this sound like it came from the movie "Canadian Bacon"? :D

This is sooooooooooooooooooooo old, it was even on fark.com like, what, three years ago, or something.

This doesn't come as a surprise to me. But if you ask me, just because they discontinued this particular plan doesn't mean they don't have newer, updated plans for a war with Canada. Ones they still keep secret!

And that tickles me.

I never knew our military was so paranoid...:rolleyes:

To quote; "I sometimes think military intelligence is a contradiction in terms". Even the United States, and in particular G.W. Bush, is not stupid enough to invade Canada (although with Bush it may be touch and go). For one thing they are full members of the UN, for another both Britain and France would oppose any invasion or sanctions and something tells me it would split NATO down the middle.
Now if someone is stupid enough to believe that so-called "news" report they really are in need of an education, or failing that a job sitting in Basra wrapped in the Stars and Stripes singing "America the Beautiful".

I never knew our military was so paranoid...:rolleyes:
Well, it's their job. They need to be prepared for any situation in order to protect our nation and it's interests.

I never knew our military was so paranoid...:rolleyes:
It's not paranoia. It's called professionalism. You make as many contingency plans as you can, because once the shooting starts, it's the side with the best plans that wins. :p

[ This article is FIVE pages long! To read the rest of the article, go here (http://www.military.com/earlybrief/0,,,00.html). ]
It would help if you linked to the article itself rather than the military.com headlines page:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/29/AR2005122901412.html

It would help if you linked to the article itself rather than the military.com headlines page:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/29/AR2005122901412.html
The window which opens on that article doesn't have an "address" line. If you want to bypass the Military.com site, you'll need to look the article up on the original site.

The window which opens on that article doesn't have an "address" line. If you want to bypass the Military.com site, you'll need to look the article up on the original site.
Or right-click in the window and select 'properties' (Internet Explorer) or 'view page info' (Mozilla), giving you:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/29/AR2005122901412.html

Or right-click in the window and select 'properties' (Internet Explorer) or 'view page info' (Mozilla), giving you:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/29/AR2005122901412.html
Kewl! I didn't know that.

Here's what I got when I did as you suggest: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/J/JOURNEY_TO_IRAQ?SITE=VANOV&SECTION=HOME

Or right-click in the window and select 'properties' (Internet Explorer) or 'view page info' (Mozilla), giving you:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/29/AR2005122901412.html
Kewl! I didn't know that.

Here's what I got when I did as you suggest: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/29/AR2005122901412

And meanwhile the secret Swedish plan to invade the world continues... we call the plan 'Ikea'.

Haha, I love this picture. :D

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2005/12/30/PH2005123000404.jpg


Oh the myriad of conclusions one can draw from it...

It's about damn time we put those Canadians in their place.:p

Trans-human']It's about damn time we put those Canadians in their place.
Never! The Empire will strike back! You may have thought that the British Empire was long gone, but that's just what we told you. Why do you think that the Queen (or 'Q', to give her her true title) is always visiting commonwealth countries? And why do you think our intelligence agencies are named MI5 and MI6? Have you never wondered what MIs 1 to 4 are doing?

I thought we made friends with Britain a little before the Civil War.

I thought we made friends with Britain a little before the Civil War.

Never hurts to be prepared.

*digs out invasion plan for Bhutan*

I never knew our military was so paranoid...:rolleyes:

You do realize that there's at least one war plan, and probably a completely separate invasion plan, for most of the nations on Earth, right? I doubt there are any even remotely feasible contingencies the military doesn't have a plan for. We have a plan-for-what-to-do-if-aliens-visit!

I would be surprised if there weren't contingency plans for an invasion of Canada during the Cold War as well, in case of the unlikely event of a Communist government taking over Canada. And there certainly were plans to use US troops to defend Canada in the equally unlikely event of a Soviet invasion of Canada. Ditto Mexico. If nothing else, it would have been an interesting intellectual exercise for the Army War College.

Of course, modern plans to invade Canada in case of a Shiite revolution establishing the Islamic Republic of Canuckistan may be a wee bit paranoid...

:p

This is pretty old news - I remember people making a stink about this years ago. It doesn't mean anything - any well prepared military has invasion or defense plans for any number of scenarios. Canada has them versus the US as well.

This is pretty old news - I remember people making a stink about this years ago. It doesn't mean anything - any well prepared military has invasion or defense plans for any number of scenarios. Canada has them versus the US as well.
Of course. The plan is set in three phases:

PHASE 1: Hand out beer and liquor.

PHASE 2: Hand out guns and ammo.

PHASE 3: Point to the border.

These days that would be a war crime, so they will need to update it further.

ACtually, power is part of infrastructure and is therefor a legitament target so no it wouldn't be a warm crime to do that.

I thought we made friends with Britain a little before the Civil War.

ACtually no since the US and Britain nearly went to war during the Civil War. It was after the Civil War that we started to be friends and it really wasn't until World War I did that occur.

This is pretty old news - I remember people making a stink about this years ago. It doesn't mean anything - any well prepared military has invasion or defense plans for any number of scenarios. Canada has them versus the US as well.

Considering that this is probably and old invasion plan as well doesn't hurt. LOL

This is pretty old news - I remember people making a stink about this years ago. It doesn't mean anything - any well prepared military has invasion or defense plans for any number of scenarios. Canada has them versus the US as well.
Oh man, now I'll bet THAT is a funny read!

I wonder if they utilize the full force of their beaver infantry? :D

COMMENTARY: OMG! There was a plan to invade Canada should the US have become involved in a war over trade with England!
I believe we were embroiled in a similar situation circa 1812 ;)

They don't have a hope in hell of taking Toronto or Calgary... our street gangs are well versed in guerilla warfare... :p and don't forget about all the terrorists that hide under the guise of a Canadian citizenship...

And it looks like Eut forgot an important point...

As it turns out, Katz isn't the first Canadian to speculate on how to fight the U.S.A. In fact, Canadian military strategists developed a plan to invade the United States in 1921 -- nine years before their American counterparts created War Plan Red.

The Canadian plan was developed by the country's director of military operations and intelligence, a World War I hero named James Sutherland "Buster" Brown. Apparently Buster believed that the best defense was a good offense: His "Defence Scheme No. 1" called for Canadian soldiers to invade the United States, charging toward Albany, Minneapolis, Seattle and Great Falls, Mont., at the first signs of a possible U.S. invasion.

"His plan was to start sending people south quickly because surprise would be more important than preparation," said Floyd Rudmin, a Canadian psychology professor and author of "Bordering on Aggression: Evidence of U.S. Military Preparations Against Canada," a 1993 book about both nations' war plans. "At a certain point, he figured they'd be stopped and then retreat, blowing up bridges and tearing up railroad tracks to slow the Americans down."

Brown's idea was to buy time for the British to come to Canada's rescue. Buster even entered the United States in civilian clothing to do some reconnaissance.

The Americans were copying the Canadians! :D

I'd be a bit disappointed if the Americans didn't consider trying to take over Canada. They tried in every other country in the American continents. Why leave us out?

I'd be a bit disappointed if the Americans didn't consider trying to take over Canada. They tried in every other country in the American continents. Why leave us out?
Because then the world might atcually pay attention...

Because then the world might atcually pay attention...
Not back then they wouldn't. At least, I don't think they would. Who could tell one whitey from another anyway? The Americans could just cross the border and pretend to be Canadian and no one would be the wiser. A soft take over. They wouldn't stick out nearly as much as they did in more southern climes.

Oh man, now I'll bet THAT is a funny read!

I wonder if they utilize the full force of their beaver infantry? :DDon't forget General Sinuhue and the bikini brigade.

Never hurts to be prepared.

*digs out invasion plan for Bhutan*
*digs out invasion plan for Bhutan invading Mexico, China, Vatican City, India and Palau, plus Palau and Vatican defense reports*

Here's the plan:
Wait until Russians invade Canada
Canadians come crying for help from US, UK, NATO
We force NATO to hold back
Nuke Canada (occupied by Russia)
Nuke Russia
Take over Russia and Canada
Wait for China to invade Russia
Nuke China
Destroy NATO
Take over world
End World
The end.

You know what a mushroom cloud can do for your health? INSTANT TANNING SALON!!!

Not back then they wouldn't. At least, I don't think they would. Who could tell one whitey from another anyway? The Americans could just cross the border and pretend to be Canadian and no one would be the wiser. A soft take over. They wouldn't stick out nearly as much as they did in more southern climes.

Ya, ummmm.....you think americans can last up here (canada) without being noticed? That's like saying a tire iron looks kinda like an apple. All you have to do is mess up thier food order and watch out. A canadien would just say whats wrong while most Americans would act like a moose with a hernia and man that's nasty. plus they'd get lost in the more northern parts of the country. without a guide. Plus they don't use our joke accent and saying "eh?" so we can laugh at the fools later who believe we actually talk like that.

one remebers the great Canada vs America scene in the South Park Movie!

one remebers the great Canada vs America scene in the South Park Movie!
One cannot help but remember it, as it seems to be brought up on these threads every other day.

They don't have a hope in hell of taking Toronto or Calgary... our street gangs are well versed in guerilla warfare...

Dude, we'll just airlift South Central LA and Bed-Stuy Brooklyn. Pfft "Canadian street gangs".

And if that doesn't work, we'll just call off the NHL season again and cripple your economy.


But honestly, of course our military is paranoid. All militaries are paranoid. Their job is to be ready for any possible fight from any direction. This is obviously a "doomsday, world has gone to hell in a handbasket scenerio", that is much an academic excersise as a real plan.

Dude, we'll just airlift South Central LA and Bed-Stuy Brooklyn. Pfft "Canadian street gangs".

And if that doesn't work, we'll just call off the NHL season again and cripple your economy.


But honestly, of course our military is paranoid. All militaries are paranoid. Their job is to be ready for any possible fight from any direction. This is obviously a "doomsday, world has gone to hell in a handbasket scenerio", that is much an academic excersise as a real plan.
Not to quibble, but I believe your point-of-view is somewhat askew. You're indulging in generalities.

Yes, I am also completly serious about airlifting entire portions of two cities.

Oi.

Why THEY hell would we invade Canada? We love Canada, your like our lil brother. :)

I mean come on, the best Militarys in the world are ready for ANYTHING. I would be alil disapointed if we didnt have one for Canada. Invade, Defend, etc...im sure we still have plans left from the Revolution and the 2nd half of the Revolution somewhere.

Im sure we have one for Mexico...


Talk about makeing a mountain out of a mole hill...:rolleyes:

Why THEY hell would we invade Canada? We love Canada, your like our lil brother. :)

Because you're way too crowded down there. :D Actually, it's not even just 'down there'. Somehow you guys even managed to pack Alaska (compared to the Canadian Territories, anyway).

Yes, I am also completly serious about airlifting entire portions of two cities.

Oi.
Sorry to quibble further, but I was referencing your statement that all militaries are paranoid. Not the patently absurd notion that you also advanced.

I'll make a point of underscoring things more thoroughly for you in future.

Never! The Empire will strike back! You may have thought that the British Empire was long gone, but that's just what we told you. Why do you think that the Queen (or 'Q', to give her her true title) is always visiting commonwealth countries? And why do you think our intelligence agencies are named MI5 and MI6? Have you never wondered what MIs 1 to 4 are doing?


*ROTFLMAO* God save the Queen! If you guys really want to deal with basket case of a country, you're welcome to it. It'd serve you right.

Have you never wondered what MIs 1 to 4 are doing?

I always assumed drinking tea, playing cricket and avoiding dentists.

I'd be a bit disappointed if the Americans didn't consider trying to take over Canada. They tried in every other country in the American continents. Why leave us out?

Does the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812 ring a bell? We tried and didn't succeed.

Don't forget General Sinuhue and the bikini brigade.
ROFL! Yeah. They'll frack us to death! What a way to go! :D

Does the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812 ring a bell? We tried and didn't succeed.
The Canadians/British burning down Washington is something every Canadian and British schoolkid should be taught. *goes all bleary-eyed*

So I suppose that the US plans only covered invaded England? That's a bit silly, since one of our main naval bases was in Scotland. There is a great difference between England and Great Britain and it's sometimes insulting to use the name England as opposed to the UK or Great Britain.

I digress.

Anyway, the plan would probably work, and probably within the timespan of two weeks. In fact, they probably wouldn't need a plan :p However, the minute the US declares war on Canada the Glorious British Commonwealth will retaliate in full force!

Right after the tea break.

Heh! Well, apparently it was discontinued back in the 1940s, so you're in the clear. Besides, denying heat to Canadians would constitute cruel and unusual punishment. :p

i actually don't mind the cold, most of us have winter coats and the like, so no worries. what would really get us is if you cut off our AC in the summer... That's a bugger. In Ontario alone we ran near capacity with our AC nearly everyday in the summer.

In 1812, it wasn't really Canada, just the British Colonies, and they had muskets and forks back then. I think that Canada and the US have evolved since then, so a new invasion wouldn't be all that bad.

*hint* most of us like the cold

*hint* we are able to defend ourselves to some extent

*hint* invading Canada would be the dumbest thing to do, ever. Honestly. Maybe 70 years ago when we were trying to get a firm hold on the West, but really... And besides, once you guys have Quebec you'll only want to give it back to us. Oh man, cheap shot, je suis désolé mes amis francais.

i actually don't mind the cold, most of us have winter coats and the like, so no worries. what would really get us is if you cut off our AC in the summer... That's a bugger. In Ontario alone we ran near capacity with our AC nearly everyday in the summer.

*hint* most of us like the cold

*hint* we are able to defend ourselves to some extent

*hint* invading Canada would be the dumbest thing to do, ever. Honestly. Maybe 70 years ago when we were trying to get a firm hold on the West, but really... And besides, once you guys have Quebec you'll only want to give it back to us. Oh man, cheap shot, je suis désolé mes amis francais.
LOL! You got that right! Invading Canada would most definately be a bad idea, not to mention why anyone would want to. The only thing I can think of is for all the Canadian women, but you don't have to invade to :fluffle: :D

*hint* invading Canada would be the dumbest thing to do, ever. Honestly. Maybe 70 years ago when we were trying to get a firm hold on the West, but really... And besides, once you guys have Quebec you'll only want to give it back to us. Oh man, cheap shot, je suis désolé mes amis francais.

Well yeah. The Canadians aren't exactly "For Mother Russia" fanatics but I know that people who love their way of life don't just bow down to invasion, whether they are liberal or fascist or conservative. Just because a country is a world superpower it doesn't mean it always wins it's battles. *points to Germany-USSR* besides, the political aftermath would be devastating.

Well yeah. The Canadians aren't exactly "For Mother Russia" fanatics but I know that people who love their way of life don't just bow down to invasion, whether they are liberal or fascist or conservative. Just because a country is a world superpower it doesn't mean it always wins it's battles. *points to Germany-USSR* besides, the political aftermath would be devastating.

yeah, 30 million more ballots to miscount in the US's next election... actually, nevermind, more than half of us really stopped caring about or politicians.

Eh? in English please?

The Canadians/British burning down Washington is something every Canadian and British schoolkid should be taught. *goes all bleary-eyed*

Minor problem with history is that Canada was not present when D.C. was burned down.

Canada has a barely functioning military as it is. Give it a few weeks and they will capitulate. It's only chance might be Britain, and it is estimated that they would have great difficulty fighting even another Falklands conflict. ;)

Minor problem with history is that Canada was not present when D.C. was burned down.


And I've always wondered do they tell their kids what happened to those British troops when they left Washington and tried to take Baltimore.

Minor problem with history is that Canada was not present when D.C. was burned down.
Hence why I wrote Canadians/British.

Actually, Canada did exist in 1812, but only consisted of what became southern Ontario and Quebec (Upper and Lower Canada).

Was Canada even a Dominion back then? I don't think so.

I never knew our military was so paranoid...:rolleyes:

Not paranoid. Prepared.

Back during my days in the military I worked in the OPLANS office in the Pentagon. OPLANS means "Operational Plans" and we were the office that generated and filed the thousands of plans generated by the services to respond to every possible scenario we could think off.

This was in the mid-90s, and I saw current, up to date plans for war with Great Britain. Along with odd, non-Blue scenarios like Poland invading Germany.

It's better to have a plan ready when the shit hits the fan... how do you think we responded so quickly to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait in 1990? There was a plan in place for just such a scenario, updated every three months.

Her Majesty shall not be amused, I daresay.

Back during my days in the military I worked in the OPLANS office in the Pentagon. OPLANS means "Operational Plans" and we were the office that generated and filed the thousands of plans generated by the services to respond to every possible scenario we could think off.

This was in the mid-90s, and I saw current, up to date plans for war with Great Britain.
Isn't telling us this a little illegal?

Along with odd, non-Blue scenarios like Poland invading Germany.
Sounds like a Hollywood sequel.

Why would we try? The last time the US tried to invade Canada, they went medieval on our sorry asses... and won!

Perhaps we just wanted to be prepared for any worst-case scenerio.

CLASSIFIED

UPDATED Plan for invasion of Canada:

Step 1: Send New York Police Dept. in through Ottowa, Seattle PD in through Vancouver, await surrender

Step 2: ??????

Step 3: Profit

The DoD has plans for war with everyone; it's a fact of life. Still though, isn't that "plan" a little touch and go? I mean, wouldn't the Candians kinda see half of that coming?

This is sooooooooooooooooooooo old, it was even on fark.com like, what, three years ago, or something.


Not only that, it was discussed here fairly recently. I believe even Euty contributed to that discussion. ;)

And much like the last one, this one seems to have devolved into a typically misinformed discussion of the War of 1812.

And, someone said the plans are outdated. The original Rainbow plans are old. Even if they have not been replaced (and some certainly have), the basics of the plans are still solid. Dust 'em off, update 'em a bit, and away we go.

These plans exist for a reason... If you'd said something like "OMG!!! The US has plans to invade Kuwait!" in the year I graduated from high school, 1986, most people would have 1) asked where Kuwait was and 2) said so what. 5 years later tyhere we were.

zzz-zzz-zzz

Wake me up when they learn how to spell 'Ottawa'... or find it on a map...

zzz-zzz

Hey, would it be difficult to keep hold of a large and rather empty country like Canada?

Hey, would it be difficult to keep hold of a large and rather empty country like Canada?
I'll tell you what wouldn't be difficult. Canadians heading for the hills and waging a guerilla war for decades.

I believe even Euty contributed to that discussion. ;)
"Euty?" "EUTY?"
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9025/smileytroutsmack9bd.gif (http://imageshack.us)

"Euty?" "EUTY?"
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9025/smileytroutsmack9bd.gif (http://imageshack.us)
Quite right. The diminutive form of Eutrusca should, in his particular case anyway, be "Truss".

I'll tell you what wouldn't be difficult. Canadians heading for the hills and waging a guerilla war for decades.

That's what I was thinking. One moment they're there, the next they've disappeared into the woods, or have gone and hid in the Rockies or something. There's a lot of space up there to lose people.

Eh? in English please?

je suis desole mes amis francais = i am sorry my french friends
yay french II !

. . . other hobbies like invading mexico, kuwait . . . and iraq

that is the best line in the article. period

I really couldn't feel sorry if the Americans invaded Canada, damn them Canadians hiding Vietnam deserters, LET THEM FREEEEEEEEZE :gundge:

Cybach']I really couldn't feel sorry if the Americans invaded Canada, damn them Canadians hiding Vietnam deserters, LET THEM FREEEEEEEEZE :gundge:
I really couldn't feel sorry if Mexican migrant workers invade America, damn them Americans and their decadent reliance on illegal alien labor. LET THEM EEEEEEEEEEEAT cake.

Quite right. The diminutive form of Eutrusca should, in his particular case anyway, be "Truss".
I like Eut. Because it sounds like how Joe Pesci pronounces 'youth' in "My Cousin Vinny":)

And I've always wondered do they tell their kids what happened to those British troops when they left Washington and tried to take Baltimore.

They got beat at Baltimore and the fleet that was sent to take Fort McHenry didn't and hence, The Star Spangled Banner (in poem form) was penned by none other than Francis Scott Key :D

Hence why I wrote Canadians/British.

But its inaccurate. It is British not Canadian/British just British.

Actually, Canada did exist in 1812, but only consisted of what became southern Ontario and Quebec (Upper and Lower Canada).

Wrongo buddy. Canada wasn't a nation until 1867.

Wrongo buddy. Canada wasn't a nation until 1867.
Not a sovereign nation, but a political entity nonetheless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Canada

That being said...I wonder whether the German government has any plans to invade any place. I'd dare to say that they don't. NATO headquarters would probably have them.

Wrongo buddy. Canada wasn't a nation until 1867.
Hardly. You seem to have latched on to a very arbitrary date for the 'creation of Canada'...as have we, really. Confederation is a lame ass date to go by, because so few provinces were part of it at that time. Alberta joined in 1905. Newfoundland was dragged kicking and screaming in 1949. Lower and Upper Canada came into existance in 1791. The Act of Union in 1841 effectively joined the two Canadas. So yes, Canada did exist before 1812, and no, Confederation in 1867 did not create the Canada that now exists.

Wrongo buddy. Canada wasn't a nation until 1867.
July 1st, 1867 (confederation) to be exact ;)

Westminster in 1931 and the Charter in 1982

Not a sovereign nation, but a political entity nonetheless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Canada

That being said...I wonder whether the German government has any plans to invade any place. I'd dare to say that they don't. NATO headquarters would probably have them.

It was a colony in 1812 that was loyal to Britian.

Now tell me why Germany doesn't have any plans to invade someone? They'll be idiotic not too.

Hardly. You seem to have latched on to a very arbitrary date for the 'creation of Canada'...as have we, really. Confederation is a lame ass date to go by, because so few provinces were part of it at that time. Alberta joined in 1905. Newfoundland was dragged kicking and screaming in 1949. Lower and Upper Canada came into existance in 1791. The Act of Union in 1841 effectively joined the two Canadas. So yes, Canada did exist before 1812, and no, Confederation in 1867 did not create the Canada that now exists.

It was a colony of Great Britian but it was not a soveriegn entity. It did not have indepedence in 1812. So what I am saying is correct.

It was a colony in 1812 that was loyal to Canada.


I think you meant Britain.

But though colonists were British subjects, they were not British.

It was a colony of Great Britian but it was not a soveriegn entity. It did not have indepedence in 1812. So what I am saying is correct.
I don't know why you think it matters. It was still us that burnt your White House down, whether we were called British at the time, or Canadians.

Hardly. You seem to have latched on to a very arbitrary date for the 'creation of Canada'...as have we, really. Confederation is a lame ass date to go by, because so few provinces were part of it at that time. Alberta joined in 1905. Newfoundland was dragged kicking and screaming in 1949. Lower and Upper Canada came into existance in 1791. The Act of Union in 1841 effectively joined the two Canadas. So yes, Canada did exist before 1812, and no, Confederation in 1867 did not create the Canada that now exists.agreed. geez, i need to refresh my canadian history. BTW, BC joined in 1875 (i think) because Canada promised a wagon road, but instead BC got a railroad.

I don't know why you think it matters. It was still us that burnt your White House down, whether we were called British at the time, or Canadians.

No canadians were present Sinuhue. Every historian and book I could find said it was an entirely British Operation and that NO Canadians were present at District of Columbia. Nice try though on trying to repaint the events.

And yes it does matter from an historical viewpoint.

It was a colony of Great Britian but it was not a soveriegn entity. It did not have indepedence in 1812. So what I am saying is correct.
And we didn't have total independence in 1867 anyway.

No canadians were present Sinuhue. Every historian and book I could find said it was an entirely British Operation and that NO Canadians were present at District of Columbia. Nice try though on trying to repaint the events. Whatever Corn...we burned your white house, na na na na na na....
:D

And we didn't have total independence in 1867 anyway.

BINGO!!!!! Hence Canada as a nation did not exist in 1812.

Whatever Corn...we burned your white house, na na na na na na....
:D

NO YOU DID NOT!

Canada was not there. No canadians were there.

SO no you did not burn it down. Canada really needs to get its history straight.

agreed. geez, i need to refresh my canadian history. BTW, BC joined in 1875 (i think) because Canada promised a wagon road, but instead BC got a railroad.
Until we got our constitution and charter in 82, we didn't really have full sovereign power. Technically we still don't...but that is truly technically, and not in practice.

And we didn't have total independence in 1867 anyway.Yeah, we got babysat by britain until (if im correct) 1931.

Yeah, we got babysat by britain until (if im correct) 1931.

Pretty much accurate.

NO YOU DID NOT!

Canada was not there. No canadians were there. Upper and Lower Canada were there. Whether Canada was a sovereign nation or a colony at the time doesn't negate that fact. Canada was most certainly there. Now, even if it was only British soldiers burning your White House, they did it on our behalf as well as theirs, as the US was disputing our borders.

SO no you did not burn it down. Canada really needs to get its history straight.
Uh-huh. Making your point doesn't unburn your white house. Nor will Canadians stop claiming that deed as their own. I mean...Britain isn't contesting it...WE WIN!

Yeah, we got babysat by britain until (if im correct) 1931.
Forget about declaring independence and wresting control from the mother country...they finally told us to bugger off:)

No canadians were there.
We're probably called Indians back then. :D

Upper and Lower Canada were there. Whether Canada was a sovereign nation or a colony at the time doesn't negate that fact. Canada was most certainly there. Now, even if it was only British soldiers burning your White House, they did it on our behalf as well as theirs, as the US was disputing our borders.

I was pointing out that Canada wasn't a nation in 1812. That is an historical fact.

Uh-huh. Making your point doesn't unburn your white house.

Indeed you are correct here but as an historian, it is my duty to point out historically inaccuracies when they occur and you made a big one.

We're probably called Indians back then. :D

The British Colonists defeated them along with the british regulars at the end of the 7 Years War :D

I was pointing out that Canada wasn't a nation in 1812. That is an historical fact.

Indeed you are correct here but as an historian, it is my duty to point out historically inaccuracies when they occur and you made a big one.
No, not really. You're just quibbling. Damn. I said quibble. I also said we burned your white house. And to make you froth at the mouth, I'll say it again:)

Now tell me why Germany doesn't have any plans to invade someone? They'll be idiotic not too.
Because if they were found, it would be the end of whatever government is in power.
Let me make this very clear: Germans don't like their military.

Every time it is even considered that German troops may participate in something, it takes weeks and weeks of debate, even in simple things, like sending peacekeepers somewhere.
And you should've seen the row over using Luftwaffe jets in an offensive role in Yugoslavia.

So to summarise: No German government can have any plans for making war. It would be political suicide.
The military in Germany is not as seperate an entity from the state as it is in the US. See this link (http://www.eng.bmvg.de/C1256F1200608B1B/CurrentBaseLink/W2686BW2672INFOEN) for details. There is therefore no real chance of the military having secret plans the government didn't order or knows about.
And finally, Germany considers NATO to be the only framework to operate in. There is no chance whatsoever of Germany acting independently from NATO-command (they couldn't, the way the Bundeswehr is set up).

The British Colonists defeated them along with the british regulars at the end of the 7 Years War :D
Some historian. The British Colonists actually signed treaties with them as sovereign nations, and made peace...but that was after the Seven Year War which was actually against the French and their native allies...not against all indians themselves. Slightly different.

But I'll let you say this, if you admit Canada burned the White House.

No, not really. You're just quibbling. Damn. I said quibble. I also said we burned your white house. And to make you froth at the mouth, I'll say it again:)

Is that the colonial still apart of the British Empire we or the independent Canada we? Makes a difference even though no one from Canada was there which has been stated throughout the historians but I guess you don't care to much for historical accuracies.

CLASSIFIED

UPDATED Plan for invasion of Canada:

Step 1: Send New York Police Dept. in through Ottowa, Seattle PD in through Vancouver, await surrender

Step 2: ??????

Step 3: Profit


Okay.... Ottawa isn't the most important place in the world (not to offend any residents, but it's only the capital). It's not a financial centre or anything like that. And to go to Vancouver? That's like 2000 miles away! A much better plan would be to take Southern Ontario up to Montreal. That's where most of our population is, and our largest financial centres (Vancouver's big, but not as big as Toronto and Montreal in such a respect I believe). Not to mention that our Capital is in that region, and it would be so much easier seeing as how you think that once the Capital falls nearly 4 million sq miles of land would go with it.

Geography is a big plus when planning out invasions.


Canada wasn't totally independant until 1982 me thinks. That's when we got our Constitution back 'ere from the Queen.

Because if they were found, it would be the end of whatever government is in power.
Let me make this very clear: Germans don't like their military.

So? Just because no one likes them doesn't mean there aren't plans. There are always plans for everything Leonstein.

Every time it is even considered that German troops may participate in something, it takes weeks and weeks of debate, even in simple things, like sending peacekeepers somewhere.
And you should've seen the row over using Luftwaffe jets in an offensive role in Yugoslavia.

That was their NATO obligations.

*snip*

I'll bet ya there are plans for contegencies that no one knows about.

Is that the colonial still apart of the British Empire we or the independent Canada we? Makes a difference even though no one from Canada was there which has been stated throughout the historians but I guess you don't care to much for historical accuracies.If you are saying that Canada did not exist, then of course no one from Canada was there. But are you saying that, or are you saying that Canada existed, albeit as a colony, and that no Canadians were there?

Canada wasn't totally independant until 1982 me thinks. That's when we got our Constitution back 'ere from the Queen.
It sounds more impressive to say 1867 though:)

NO YOU DID NOT!

Canada was not there. No canadians were there.

SO no you did not burn it down. Canada really needs to get its history straight.

The troops were Canadian Militia under the command of British Officers with Native warriors. There was never a large contingent of British Troops in the Canadian territories. Colonial citizens made up the bulk of any defense force.

The Canadians left Washington because there was nothing else to do. We are not warmongers. :gundge:

In WW1 Canadian troops were considered the best in the world. They stood their ground when many other countries including the US gave up. Make all the stupid or exercise plans you want to invade us. We are stronger than you think. :p

Some historian. The British Colonists actually signed treaties with them as sovereign nations, and made peace...but that was after the Seven Year War which was actually against the French and their native allies...not against all indians themselves. Slightly different.

You don't have to tell me that Sinuhue. I have actually studied the 7 Years War as well as the Revolutionary War, The War of 1812, The Mexican War, The Civil War, Spanish-American-Cuban War, WWI, WWII, Korea, Nam, Gulf I and Gulf II. History, along with Poli Sci, are my majors in College.

As for treaties, they pretty much had no choice because of the distance however, under international law, they were not, in fact, soveriegn nations.

But I'll let you say this, if you admit Canada burned the White House.

And be historically inaccurate?

The troops were Canadian Militia under the command of British Officers with Native warriors. There was never a large contingent of British Troops in the Canadian territories. Colonial citizens made up the bulk of any defense force.

Sorry but no. No Canadian militia was there. I have read everything I can on 1812 and none mentioned a Canadian Militia at D.C.

In WW1 Canadian troops were considered the best in the world. They stood their ground when many other countries including the US gave up.

Uh Aesagacia, US didnt get involved till 1917 and shortly thereafter, it was over. Not much opportunity for us to give up.

Make all the stupid or exercise plans you want to invade us. We are stronger than you think. :p

Whose making excuses? I'm having fun pointing out historical inaccuracies tonight since that is about as much fun as I'm having tonight since my gf and I are no longer together.

If you are saying that Canada did not exist, then of course no one from Canada was there. But are you saying that, or are you saying that Canada existed, albeit as a colony, and that no Canadians were there?

Everything I have come across in regards to D.C. point to the fact that no canadians were there. It was purely a British Operation that was successful though they never took Baltimore.

So? Just because no one likes them doesn't mean there aren't plans. There are always plans for everything Leonstein.
What sort of plans though? The Bundeswehr is in no state to invade its neighbours, and the very existence of plans to that effect would risk everything.
Germany isn't like the US, these things are not easily forgiven, not by others and especially not by the population.

That was their NATO obligations.
Sure was. Not that the country really cared - many reckoned that the Constitution outlawed the operation, because it wasn't strictly defensive in nature.
Read this link, it's pretty neat.
http://manila.djh.dk/germany02/

I'll bet ya there are plans for contegencies that no one knows about.
If there are, then obviously we don't know. But I can't imagine that the Bundeswehr would get people to plan offensive wars against its neighbours or anyone else - it's too different from the way a normal military operates.

As for treaties, they pretty much had no choice because of the distance however, under international law, they were not, in fact, soveriegn nations. But they were treated as such...something that has come back to bite Canada in the ass:) Woohoo!



And be historically inaccurate?
Not really. During the war of 1812, Canadian militiamen made up a sizeable portion of the British forces. If it so happened that the particular group that burned the White House was excluded Canadian militia, that does not mean that Canadians were not at all involved. Meaning, we don’t say that this group or that took this beach, or liberated that town…we refer to the army as a whole. The army as a whole included Canadians. I believe we made up about half of the British forces in North America. So we’ll take 50% of the credit. How’s that? We half burned down the White House.

Oh Corn..is it wrong that I'm having this much fun?

Whose making excuses? I'm having fun pointing out historical inaccuracies tonight since that is about as much fun as I'm having tonight since my gf and I are no longer together.
Yikes, is that a recent breakup? Sorry to hear about it.

Yikes, is that a recent breakup? Sorry to hear about it.

Yea. Tonight. So I'm not really in a good mood.

And no they were not treated as soveriegn nations. If we were then Britain had no right to restrict our trade to just Britain and they did do that and that was one of the reasons stated in our Declaration of Independence.

In WW1 Canadian troops were considered the best in the world.

Those would be German troops, not Canadian. If Canadian troops were the best of the war, the war would have ended sometime shortly after the Austro-Hungarian- and Ottomon-Turk Empires surrendered. Instead, the Germans kept on going and going and going.... What's more, is that they could have kept on going and going and going, and may have even won the war if the US hadn't have gotten involved.

There's something to be said when German Stromtroopers are, and were, regarded as having had a greater effect on of the war than the entirety of the Commonwealth, French, and American tank corps did.

They stood their ground when many other countries including the US gave up.

Funny, I recall American troops driving forward in conditions that Commonwealth and French troops quickly broke and fell back under....

Make all the stupid or exercise plans you want to invade us. We are stronger than you think. :p

Perhaps. That would depend on how strong we think you are, though wouldn't it?

Sorry but no. No Canadian militia was there. I have read everything I can on 1812 and none mentioned a Canadian Militia at D.C.
Uh Aesagacia, US didnt get involved till 1917 and shortly thereafter, it was over. Not much opportunity for us to give up.
Whose making excuses? I'm having fun pointing out historical inaccuracies tonight since that is about as much fun as I'm having tonight since my gf and I are no longer together.

It was over after Americans entered because they had fresh troops. There would not have been a war to enter if the Canadians. Yes the Americans did lose several key hills that the Canadians later won.
You are not the only one to study this period in time (1812). The problem is that your sources are American which often gloss over "irrelevant" details such as Militia nationalities. Many Americans think that Canada is part of the US (Rick Mercer Talking to Americans).
This is akin to Ron Howard's film Apollo 13 when Americans in Nasa came up with the plan to save the crew. Americans would not like to know that it was a Canadian scientist at NASA who developed the rescue plan.
What are you saying about excuses? Never mentioned the word.

There's something to be said when German Stromtroopers are, and were, regarded as having had a greater effect on of the war than the entirety of the Commonwealth, French, and American tank corps did.
More thanks to the tactics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutier_tactics) than the people though.
Soldiers are the same everywhere, sometimes the training varies, but ultimately they are young men with guns, regardless where they come from.

It was over after Americans entered because they had fresh troops. There would not have been a war to enter if the Canadians. Yes the Americans did lose several key hills that the Canadians later won.

And yet the Germans were still moving and it took the US Forces to finally force a breakthrough and end the war. Take a closer look at WWI before you really start talking about how great the Canadian Military was. In reality, Germany should've won that war if you really take a look at it.

You are not the only one to study this period in time (1812). The problem is that your sources are American which often gloss over "irrelevant" details such as Militia nationalities.

Actually you would be incorrect in stating that my sources were American and I don't gloss over details. I dig for the most finite details I can get.

Many Americans think that Canada is part of the US (Rick Mercer Talking to Americans).

Then he's an idiot and so are the rest of the Americans who think this.

This is akin to Ron Howard's film Apollo 13 when Americans in Nasa came up with the plan to save the crew. Americans would not like to know that it was a Canadian scientist at NASA who developed the rescue plan.

And who was the scientist that came up with the rescue plan then?

What are you saying about excuses? Never mentioned the word.

Sorry. I'm tired and not reading things clearly.

Those would be German troops, not Canadian. If Canadian troops were the best of the war, the war would have ended sometime shortly after the Austro-Hungarian- and Ottomon-Turk Empires surrendered. Instead, the Germans kept on going and going and going.... What's more, is that they could have kept on going and going and going, and may have even won the war if the US hadn't have gotten involved.
No Germans had the numbers and political apathy on their side.

There's something to be said when German Stromtroopers are, and were, regarded as having had a greater effect on of the war than the entirety of the Commonwealth, French, and American tank corps did.
Of course they were the aggressors.

Funny, I recall American troops driving forward in conditions that Commonwealth and French troops quickly broke and fell back under....
Again depends on who writes the history books and who tells the truth.

Perhaps. That would depend on how strong we think you are, though wouldn't it?
I happen to know from experience the disdain Americans have for Canadians. So I would say Americans in general think very little of us.

Yea. Tonight. So I'm not really in a good mood. Of all nights. Again, sorry to hear it.

And no they were not treated as soveriegn nations. If we were then Britain had no right to restrict our trade to just Britain and they did do that and that was one of the reasons stated in our Declaration of Independence.Good point...but they weren't treated just as defeated enemies either. And the treaties have left it open for native self-rule to become a reality. So while they weren't treated as completely sovereign and free to do what they wished, they were treated with as nations...bound by treaties to Britain.

No Germans had the numbers and political apathy on their side.
I would say you take Corny's hint and read up a bit. To claim that Germany had numerical superiority when it was fighting the entire Commonwealth/Empire is a bit far-fetched.
As for apathy - no more than in the Allied nations. More like blind patriotism.

Of course they were the aggressors.
He meant in the trenches. Once both sides have a trench, it really doesn't make a difference who's the aggressor and who isn't.
And politically, I'd just add that Germany was no more an aggressor than Russia was.

Of all nights. Again, sorry to hear it.

Thanks

Good point...but they weren't treated just as defeated enemies either. And the treaties have left it open for native self-rule to become a reality. So while they weren't treated as completely sovereign and free to do what they wished, they were treated with as nations...bound by treaties to Britain.

ah native self rule. SOmething the US asked from the much beloved (yea right) King George III. He didn't grant it because he was an autocratic madman.

As to being bound, they were still bound by what Britain wanted.

IHe meant in the trenches. Once both sides have a trench, it really doesn't make a difference who's the aggressor and who isn't.
And politically, I'd just add that Germany was no more an aggressor than Russia was.

Yep. Austria-Hungary were the aggressors in WWI but yet, Germany gets blamed for it. A mistake to be sure and one that cannot be corrected unfortunately :(

Thanks



ah native self rule. SOmething the US asked from the much beloved (yea right) King George III. He didn't grant it because he was an autocratic madman.

As to being bound, they were still bound by what Britain wanted.
But no longer...based in part on those same treaties. When Canada finally was forcefully weaned from the teat of the motherland, so were we. And those nations choosing self-rule do so within a framework of semi-sovereignty...bound somewhat to Canada instead of Britain...but with enough power of self-determination to make it worth it. I mean, they COULD have just killed us all, or given us no treaties...

Rick Mercer is a Canadian comedian who likes to highlight American ignorance for the amusement of the Canucks.
Sorry, its been a long time on that one can't remember the name. The point was that certain people gloss over details which do not make popular views.
Didn't mean to suggest you were less than thorough but you have obviously not consulted the Canadian version of events which are too few for my liking.
The Canadian military was far too small and underfunded to carry the war. I am referring to bravery and determination.
I can see I will not sway you tonigh. Have fun!

Rick Mercer is a Canadian comedian who likes to highlight American ignorance for the amusement of the Canucks.

Doesn't matter. Any Americans who think that are dumbasses.

Sorry, its been a long time on that one can't remember the name. The point was that certain people gloss over details which do not make popular views.

Some do. No mistake about it. I'll grant you that point.

Didn't mean to suggest you were less than thorough but you have obviously not consulted the Canadian version of events which are too few for my liking.

And what makes you think they're any less bias than the American Version since the American Version thinks that the US won the war (we didn't) and the British version states that they won the war (they didn't either).

The Canadian military was far too small and underfunded to carry the war. I am referring to bravery and determination.

Their militia was briliant in Canada. From what I'm seeing and reading is that was all they did was to defend Canada.

I can see I will not sway you tonigh. Have fun!

Night.

Whatever Corn...we burned your white house, na na na na na na....
:D
...na na na na, hey hey heyyyyy - goodbye!

break out the marshmallows and let's do a spontaneous re-enactment to illustrate!

*fumbles with lighter*

...na na na na, hey hey heyyyyy - goodbye!

break out the marshmallows and let's do a spontaneous re-enactment to illustrate!

*fumbles with lighter*

WOuld you like York (Present day Toronto) to be burned down?

...na na na na, hey hey heyyyyy - goodbye!

break out the marshmallows and let's do a spontaneous re-enactment to illustrate!

*fumbles with lighter*
Damn...you have that song stuck in my head now!

WOuld you like York (Present day Toronto) to be burned down?
Before or after it's shot to pieces by smuggled American handguns?

Before or after it's shot to pieces by smuggled American handguns?

don't matter. LOL

That was why D.C. was burned down. It was in response to York being burned down.

don't matter. LOL

That was why D.C. was burned down. It was in response to York being burned down.
Na. WE would've done it anyway:)

Na. WE would've done it anyway:)

We'll never know will we :D

Na. WE would've done it anyway:)

SAY THAT IN CREE!

*laughing*

No Germans had the numbers and political apathy on their side.

Numbers? What numbers? And if there was political apathy, mind explaining why the Germans started moving towards a more democratic government towards the end, complete with riots and labor strikes? In the middle of a war in which it was them against the world, I might add.

Of course they were the aggressors.

No, they were just considered aggressors. And Stromtroopers didn't come into being until after things got dragged into the trenches, like tanks.

Again depends on who writes the history books and who tells the truth.

Given that for years and years after WWI, the US censored Rommel's Infantry Attacks because it might be embaressing to our allies, I would say that the historians probably aren't lying on that one. Keep in mind the fact that French troops had openly mutinied on-and-off through the mid and late parts of the war.

I happen to know from experience the disdain Americans have for Canadians. So I would say Americans in general think very little of us.

That could be because the average Canadian doesn't think much of their own armed forces....

More thanks to the tactics than the people though.
Soldiers are the same everywhere, sometimes the training varies, but ultimately they are young men with guns, regardless where they come from.

True. But the quality of a nation's fighting forces depends on more than training and tactics. It also relies on the prowess of the nation's engineering firms and the savvy of the people in charge of the army, from the highest government official to the lowest Corporal.

The German nation has, historically, produced well-trained, well-armed, well-equipped, and (usually) well-led soldiers. They are, in my humble opin, some of the best soldiers on earth because of this.

SAY THAT IN CREE!

*laughing*
Hehehehehee.

Na. WE would've done it anyway:)


Well, if you burned DC now, it'd only improve the place

Well, if you burned DC now, it'd only improve the place
Maybe that's what we need to do so Corn can't wiggle out of giving us our due!