NationStates Jolt Archive

Oh, how I wish more people would pay attention to guys like this....

HEARTS AND MINDS
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007743
Right Islam vs. Wrong Islam
Muslims and non-Muslims must unite to defeat the Wahhabi ideology.

BY ABDURRAHMAN WAHID
Friday, December 30, 2005 12:01 a.m. EST

JAKARTA--News organizations report that Osama bin Laden has obtained a religious edict from a misguided Saudi cleric, justifying the use of nuclear weapons against America and the infliction of mass casualties. It requires great emotional strength to confront the potential ramifications of this fact. Yet can anyone doubt that those who joyfully incinerate the occupants of office buildings, commuter trains, hotels and nightclubs would leap at the chance to magnify their damage a thousandfold?

Imagine the impact of a single nuclear bomb detonated in New York, London, Paris, Sydney or L.A.! What about two or three? The entire edifice of modern civilization is built on economic and technological foundations that terrorists hope to collapse with nuclear attacks like so many fishing huts in the wake of a tsunami.

Just two small, well-placed bombs devastated Bali's tourist economy in 2002 and sent much of its population back to the rice fields and out to sea, to fill their empty bellies. What would be the effect of a global economic crisis in the wake of attacks far more devastating than those of Bali or 9/11?

It is time for people of good will from every faith and nation to recognize that a terrible danger threatens humanity. We cannot afford to continue "business as usual" in the face of this existential threat. Rather, we must set aside our international and partisan bickering, and join to confront the danger that lies before us.

An extreme and perverse ideology in the minds of fanatics is what directly threatens us (specifically, Wahhabi/Salafi ideology--a minority fundamentalist religious cult fueled by petrodollars). Yet underlying, enabling and exacerbating this threat of religious extremism is a global crisis of misunderstanding.

All too many Muslims fail to grasp Islam, which teaches one to be lenient towards others and to understand their value systems, knowing that these are tolerated by Islam as a religion. The essence of Islam is encapsulated in the words of the Quran, "For you, your religion; for me, my religion." That is the essence of tolerance. Religious fanatics--either purposely or out of ignorance--pervert Islam into a dogma of intolerance, hatred and bloodshed. They justify their brutality with slogans such as "Islam is above everything else." They seek to intimidate and subdue anyone who does not share their extremist views, regardless of nationality or religion. While a few are quick to shed blood themselves, countless millions of others sympathize with their violent actions, or join in the complicity of silence.

This crisis of misunderstanding--of Islam by Muslims themselves--is compounded by the failure of governments, people of other faiths, and the majority of well-intentioned Muslims to resist, isolate and discredit this dangerous ideology. The crisis thus afflicts Muslims and non-Muslims alike, with tragic consequences. Failure to understand the true nature of Islam permits the continued radicalization of Muslims world-wide, while blinding the rest of humanity to a solution which hides in plain sight.

The most effective way to overcome Islamist extremism is to explain what Islam truly is to Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Without that explanation, people will tend to accept the unrefuted extremist view--further radicalizing Muslims, and turning the rest of the world against Islam itself.

Accomplishing this task will be neither quick nor easy. In recent decades, Wahhabi/Salafi ideology has made substantial inroads throughout the Muslim world. Islamic fundamentalism has become a well-financed, multifaceted global movement that operates like a juggernaut in much of the developing world, and even among immigrant Muslim communities in the West. To neutralize the virulent ideology that underlies fundamentalist terrorism and threatens the very foundations of modern civilization, we must identify its advocates, understand their goals and strategies, evaluate their strengths and weaknesses, and effectively counter their every move. What we are talking about is nothing less than a global struggle for the soul of Islam.

The Sunni (as opposed to Shiite) fundamentalists' goals generally include: claiming to restore the perfection of the early Islam practiced by Muhammad and his companions, who are known in Arabic as al-Salaf al-Salih, "the Righteous Ancestors"; establishing a utopian society based on these Salafi principles, by imposing their interpretation of Islamic law on all members of society; annihilating local variants of Islam in the name of authenticity and purity; transforming Islam from a personal faith into an authoritarian political system; establishing a pan-Islamic caliphate governed according to the strict tenets of Salafi Islam, and often conceived as stretching from Morocco to Indonesia and the Philippines; and, ultimately, bringing the entire world under the sway of their extremist ideology.

Fundamentalist strategy is often simple as well as brilliant. Extremists are quick to drape themselves in the mantle of Islam and declare their opponents kafir, or infidels, and thus smooth the way for slaughtering nonfundamentalist Muslims. Their theology rests upon a simplistic, literal and highly selective reading of the Quran and Sunnah (prophetic traditions), through which they seek to entrap the world-wide Muslim community in the confines of their narrow ideological grasp. Expansionist by nature, most fundamentalist groups constantly probe for weakness and an opportunity to strike, at any time or place, to further their authoritarian goals.

The armed ghazis (Islamic warriors) raiding from New York to Jakarta, Istanbul, Baghdad, London and Madrid are only the tip of the iceberg, forerunners of a vast and growing population that shares their radical views and ultimate objectives. The formidable strengths of this worldwide fundamentalist movement include:

1) An aggressive program with clear ideological and political goals;
2) immense funding from oil-rich Wahhabi sponsors;
3) the ability to distribute funds in impoverished areas to buy loyalty and power;
4) a claim to and aura of religious authenticity and Arab prestige;
5) an appeal to Islamic identity, pride and history;
6) an ability to blend into the much larger traditionalist masses and blur the distinction between moderate Islam and their brand of religious extremism;
7) full-time commitment by its agents/leadership;
8) networks of Islamic schools that propagate extremism;
9) the absence of organized opposition in the Islamic world;
10) a global network of fundamentalist imams who guide their flocks to extremism;
11) a well-oiled "machine" established to translate, publish and distribute Wahhabi/Salafi propaganda and disseminate its ideology throughout the world;
12) scholarships for locals to study in Saudi Arabia and return with degrees and indoctrination, to serve as future leaders;
13) the ability to cross national and cultural borders in the name of religion;
14) Internet communication; and
15) the reluctance of many national governments to supervise or control this entire process.

We must employ effective strategies to counter each of these fundamentalist strengths. This can be accomplished only by bringing the combined weight of the vast majority of peace-loving Muslims, and the non-Muslim world, to bear in a coordinated global campaign whose goal is to resolve the crisis of misunderstanding that threatens to engulf our entire world.

An effective counterstrategy must be based upon a realistic assessment of our own strengths and weaknesses in the face of religious extremism and terror. Disunity, of course, has proved fatal to countless human societies faced with a similar existential threat. A lack of seriousness in confronting the imminent danger is likewise often fatal. Those who seek to promote a peaceful and tolerant understanding of Islam must overcome the paralyzing effects of inertia, and harness a number of actual or potential strengths, which can play a key role in neutralizing fundamentalist ideology. These strengths not only are assets in the struggle with religious extremism, but in their mirror form they point to the weakness at the heart of fundamentalist ideology. They are:
1) Human dignity, which demands freedom of conscience and rejects the forced imposition of religious views;
2) the ability to mobilize immense resources to bring to bear on this problem, once it is identified and a global commitment is made to solve it;
3) the ability to leverage resources by supporting individuals and organizations that truly embrace a peaceful and tolerant Islam;
4) nearly 1,400 years of Islamic traditions and spirituality, which are inimical to fundamentalist ideology;
5) appeals to local and national--as well as Islamic--culture/traditions/pride;
6) the power of the feminine spirit, and the fact that half of humanity consists of women, who have an inherent stake in the outcome of this struggle;
7) traditional and Sufi leadership and masses, who are not yet radicalized (strong numeric advantage: 85% to 90% of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims); 8) the ability to harness networks of Islamic schools to propagate a peaceful and tolerant Islam;
9) the natural tendency of like-minded people to work together when alerted to a common danger;
10) the ability to form a global network of like-minded individuals, organizations and opinion leaders to promote moderate and progressive ideas throughout the Muslim world;
11) the existence of a counterideology, in the form of traditional, Sufi and modern Islamic teachings, and the ability to translate such works into key languages;
12) the benefits of modernity, for all its flaws, and the widespread appeal of popular culture;
13) the ability to cross national and cultural borders in the name of religion;
14) Internet communications, to disseminate progressive views--linking and inspiring like-minded individuals and organizations throughout the world;
15) the nation-state; and
16) the universal human desire for freedom, justice and a better life for oneself and loved ones.

Though potentially decisive, most of these advantages remain latent or diffuse, and require mobilization to be effective in confronting fundamentalist ideology. In addition, no effort to defeat religious extremism can succeed without ultimately cutting off the flow of petrodollars used to finance that extremism, from Leeds to Jakarta.

Only by recognizing the problem, putting an end to the bickering within and between nation-states, and adopting a coherent long-term plan (executed with international leadership and commitment) can we begin to apply the brakes to the rampant spread of extremist ideas and hope to resolve the world's crisis of misunderstanding before the global economy and modern civilization itself begin to crumble in the face of truly devastating attacks.

Muslims themselves can and must propagate an understanding of the "right" Islam, and thereby discredit extremist ideology. Yet to accomplish this task requires the understanding and support of like-minded individuals, organizations and governments throughout the world. Our goal must be to illuminate the hearts and minds of humanity, and offer a compelling alternate vision of Islam, one that banishes the fanatical ideology of hatred to the darkness from which it emerged.

Mr. Wahid, former president of Indonesia, is patron and senior advisor to the LibForAll Foundation (www.libforall.org), an Indonesian and U.S.-based nonprofit that works to reduce religious extremism and discredit the use of terrorism.

I've met several Indonesian people. They've always struck me as good folks. Indonesia seems to genuinely want to fight against the extremists, but unfortunately, the extremists are still present there. Anyway, it's important for moderate voices from more culturally liberal parts of the Muslim world, like Indonesia, to be heard.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007743

December 30, 2005
JAKARTA--News organizations report that Osama bin Laden has obtained a religious edict from a misguided Saudi cleric, justifying the use of nuclear weapons against America and the infliction of mass casualties.
...
Imagine the impact of a single nuclear bomb detonated in New York..
...
What would be the effect of a global economic crisis in the wake of attacks far more devastating than those of Bali or 9/11?Interesting question..

What would be the economic impact of a nuke on New York ?

Interesting question..

What would be the economic impact of a nuke on New York ?
Economic pandemonium due to the destruction of important investment properties owned by very wealthy people here in the states and abroad, the complete destruction of the major stock exchanges including NYSE and NASDAQ, and a huge cleanup bill for the US government that would likely decrease the value of US bonds held by citizens and foreign investors.

Economic pandemonium due to the destruction of important investment properties owned by very wealthy people here in the states and abroad, the complete destruction of the major stock exchanges including NYSE and NASDAQ, and a huge cleanup bill for the US government that would likely decrease the value of US bonds held by citizens and foreign investors.
Inaccessability of the Port of New York, Fallout all along the Eastern Seaboard, all in all, it would have less impact to the US if they nuked DC.

Go here. It's the Hamas "kids" site. You'll want to look at Issue 66.

http://www.al-fateh.net/

Hamas is no longer working solely on the liberation of Palestine. They're now teaching their children that Seville (and all of Spain), and many other "European" locations are actually land stolen from Muslims which must be retaken and returned to Islamic rule.

Nice to know that they're raising the bar - why don't they just ask for the whole world, like Osama does?

Go here. It's the Hamas "kids" site. You'll want to look at Issue 66.

http://www.al-fateh.net/

Hamas is no longer working solely on the liberation of Palestine. They're now teaching their children that Seville (and all of Spain), and many other "European" locations are actually land stolen from Muslims which must be retaken and returned to Islamic rule.

Nice to know that they're raising the bar - why don't they just ask for the whole world, like Osama does?
Give them time. I'm sure that they will declare any piece of land with a majority Muslim population to be Muslim land independent of any outside government soon enough. The Islamist cause is one of eventual global domination.

...all in all, it would have less impact to the US if they nuked DC.I agree.. NY is a much more likely city that DC.. or any of the previously mentioned cities..

If they got nukes.. and if they decide to use one.. me-thinks it is going to be detonated in Manhattan.

If they got nukes.. and they decide to use one.. my bet is that it is going to be detonated in Manhattan.
All the financial data is backed up on storage drives held at secure underground locations (the same is true for London), so there is no need to worry, the economy will not be harmed.

All the financial data is backed up on storage drives held at secure underground locations (the same is true for London), so there is no need to worry, the economy will not be harmed.Maybe the world economy will not feel it much.. But the US domestic economy will probably take a hit on the "Consumer confidence" levels...

Economic pandemonium due to the destruction of important investment properties owned by very wealthy people here in the states and abroad, the complete destruction of the major stock exchanges including NYSE and NASDAQ, and a huge cleanup bill for the US government that would likely decrease the value of US bonds held by citizens and foreign investors.

Actually, only the physical buildings of the major stock exchanges would be destroyed. Since 9/11, they all have extensive disaster recovery sites located well away from Manhattan. In theory, the stock markets could be up and running again within minutes. In practice, you'd need to replace the, hmmm, human assets as well.

But you'd still have a hell of a cleanup.

All the financial data is backed up on storage drives held at secure underground locations (the same is true for London), so there is no need to worry, the economy will not be harmed.
Just because the records are backed up doesn't mean that the loss of the actual exchanges plus the people who work there won't disrupt global trading for a significant period of time. In addition, many of the wealthy people who's offices were in the financial district could be killed. Their substancial assets could be tied up until their heirs get their share of the inheritance, which would cause distortions in the market too.

Ya know, I'm gonna start doing the Eustrusca thing. Everyone seems to constantly focus on the negative when it comes to things Muslims do, so I think I'll start posting daily (maybe multi-daily) articles every time I find a Muslim doing something good.

Anyway, to the topic at hand ...

A misguided cleric gave Osama permission to use nukes on the US? How is that news? Is anyone *really* surprised? Does anyone believe Osama really needed permission?

Ya know, I'm gonna start doing the Eustrusca thing. Everyone seems to constantly focus on the negative when it comes to things Muslims do, so I think I'll start posting daily (maybe multi-daily) articles every time I find a Muslim doing something good.

Anyway, to the topic at hand ...

A misguided cleric gave Osama permission to use nukes on the US? How is that news? Is anyone *really* surprised? Does anyone believe Osama really needed permission?


Ok for the heck of it. Post a Muslim doing a good thing for non-muslims. There are endless things they do for fellow Muslims.......

http://www.kltv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2873991

or here are another couple of links:

http://www.persecutionblog.com/2005/12/muslims_offerin.html

http://www.soundvision.com/info/muslims/caring.asp

Anyway, to the topic at hand ...

A misguided cleric gave Osama permission to use nukes on the US? How is that news? Is anyone *really* surprised? Does anyone believe Osama really needed permission?Wahabisim is misguided... and unfortunately, it is Rich and virtually in control of Mecca, thus they have undue influence. but anyway Keru, I thought better of you. The article is from a Muslim, generally positive, and proposes ways of dealing with the debasement of Islam. The introduction about Osama is just that, an introduction.

http://www.persecutionblog.com/2005/...s_offerin.html

Exactly the sort of thing Abdurrahman Wahid was talking about.

Just because the records are backed up doesn't mean that the loss of the actual exchanges plus the people who work there won't disrupt global trading for a significant period of time.I think Samwyse is more accurate on this one...

one thing people forget. When the word extremist is heard everyone thinks of Islam. but every religion has its extremists, christianity have BNP and the IRA and loads of others, Judaism have arial sharon, he led the isralites to kill millions of palistinians to establish israel. (not many people remember that israel killed it way on the world map)

one thing people forget. When the word extremist is heard everyone thinks of Islam. but every religion has its extremists, christianity have BNP and the IRA and loads of others, Judaism have arial sharon, he led the isralites to kill millions of palistinians to establish israel. (not many people remember that israel killed it way on the world map)Sharon did not "lead" Israel.. when it was created.

But yes.. he is a War Criminal. IMHO

BTW.. what the is BNP?

Sharon did not "lead" Israel.. when it was created.

But yes.. he is a War Criminal. IMHO

BTW.. what the is BNP?
British National Party. Vaguely conservative, very racist, hate islam. They get a few local council seats in northern english cities with high unemployment and high % non-white population, sometimes a candidate will get 1000 or so votes in a national election.

Economic pandemonium due to the destruction of important investment properties owned by very wealthy people here in the states and abroad, the complete destruction of the major stock exchanges including NYSE and NASDAQ, and a huge cleanup bill for the US government that would likely decrease the value of US bonds held by citizens and foreign investors.


If they threatened nuked New york just tell them you'll execute every prisoner in Guantanamo bay. That would give you some leverage.

If they threatened nuked New york just tell them you'll execute every prisoner in Guantanamo bay. That would give you some leverage.
Because that'll convince them you're not the great satan...

Those who get captured are already writeoffs to terrorists as incompetents; they don't know them or identify with them; they don't care about innocent people dying. There's no leverage there!

Furthermore, it would just polarise world opinion against America at their summary execution of prisoners captued and held in dubious circumstances.

It wouldn't help, and would actively harm.

Oh, how I wish more people would pay attention to guys like this....


Shh, silly. The people on this forum only like criticising bad old Christianity, the font of all evil in the world! Why, who cares if Muslims use Islam as justification for depriving women of equal rights when modern Christainity is occasionally being taught as science in a few minor schools in the American deep south? As everyone knows, Islam is the faith of the poor people whom America oppresses so therefore it cannot be used for evil means!

Elgesh']British National Party. Vaguely conservative, very racist, hate islam. They get a few local council seats in northern english cities with high unemployment and high % non-white population, sometimes a candidate will get 1000 or so votes in a national election.
Two points:
One, it's news to me that the BNP have anything to do with Christian ideology on any level, they're a political organisation than fundamentalist crusaders.
Two, Tower Hamlets isn't up North.

Elgesh']Because that'll convince them you're not the great satan...

Those who get captured are already writeoffs to terrorists as incompetents; they don't know them or identify with them; they don't care about innocent people dying. There's no leverage there!

Furthermore, it would just polarise world opinion against America at their summary execution of prisoners captued and held in dubious circumstances.

It wouldn't help, and would actively harm.

A) They already hate us.
B) We've got some high-profile prisoners there
C) We're running out of room
D) They're savages
E) We don't have enough bacon to go around

Since executing them is too 'mean', howabout a "boating accident"? ;) :D

Two points:
One, it's news to me that the BNP have anything to do with Christian ideology on any level, they're a political organisation than fundamentalist crusaders.
Two, Tower Hamlets isn't up North.

I'm not aware of the bnp's christian or otherwise status either, so I didn't mention it - I was really just giving a broad outline of the party to someone who, I thought, didn't know a lot about it, friend :)

The BNP's heartland is certainly in the north, just look at the gerneral election results for 2005, for example; 2 rogue constituancies in london aside, it's usually 3-5 % in more northerly constituancies, 2-3% elsewhere; and the south east and south west did best with only 0-1.5 % as a rule there!

A) They already hate us.
B) We've got some high-profile prisoners there
C) We're running out of room
D) They're savages
E) We don't have enough bacon to go around

Since executing them is too 'mean', howabout a "boating accident"? ;) :D

Heh - I didn't think we'd progressed to joking 'bout it yet - usually get some discussion goinig before move on to that!:D Oh well, we'll call it quits for now, then!

Elgesh']I'm not aware of the bnp's christian or otherwise status either, so I didn't mention it - I was really just giving a broad outline of the party to someone who, I thought, didn't know a lot about it, friend :)

The BNP's heartland is certainly in the north, just look at the gerneral election results for 2005, for example; 2 rogue constituancies in london aside, it's usually 3-5 % in more northerly constituancies, 2-3% elsewhere; and the south east and south west did best with only 0-1.5 % as a rule there!
This is unfortunately true, but it unfortunately isn't just the ignorant Northern peasants who are sometimes stupid enough to vote the swine into a council seat...

I've no idea where he got the notion that the swine have anything to do with Christianity, either.

If they threatened nuked New york just tell them you'll execute every prisoner in Guantanamo bay. That would give you some leverage.
That would probably be a Really Bad Idea, unless you want to encourage New York to be nuked.
For starters, It isn't like the terrorists are going to care about the lives of some prisoners who were associated with them that are doomed to prison anyway. Heck, many of them seem to barely care about themselves. As far as I can tell, what they care about is the supposed will of their God and the removal of Western influence.
Secondly, they'd just use the mass execution as a means to recruit more. They seem to like the "Westerners hate us" angle.

This is unfortunately true, but it unfortunately isn't just the ignorant Northern peasants who are sometimes stupid enough to vote the swine into a council seat...

I've no idea where he got the notion that the swine have anything to do with Christianity, either.

If it helps, I'm a barbaric scot, so I'm even _worse_ than northern peasants! Still, anyone living south of the border is a mincing sassanach with a tail, so...

where were we? :p

No, I was just giving a broad outline of the situation, as I say - and in a thumbnail sketch, the BNP is a would-be national party, but in reality a small minority force even where it's 'strongest' in the north of england - this relative strength being due to social and economic factors, as I also said. I'm not having a dig at northeners!

The Islam extremists will destroy, what looks to them like, examples of western decadence. I would expect to see half a dozen nukes go off all at once, if they get the chance to nuke us. I'm sure Hollywood and Las Vegas are right on top of their lists. New York City may be a target too, but why risk going into a place with heavy resistance, when targets with little or no resistance are there for the taking.

Just remember, in order for any group to defeat the USA, they don't have to win any battles with the military. All they have to do is chip away at the will of the American people to win, and by what I read and hear on the news, the Islam extremists are winning the war of wills. We can and probably will, have a stable country in Iraq, but still loose the war against these radicals.

It's just my opinion, but I truly believe, that the main reason we have not had another attack on our soil, is because the terrorists want Americans to forgot all about 9/11 and give the oposition here in America the moral ground to say we are the bad guys, not the terrorists. We are already hearing some Americans say that President Bush is a bigger terrorists than Osama, and that we should bring all our troops home. Howard Dean even called our troops terrorists by going into homes in Iraq in the middle of the night. Shame on Howard.

As a final thought on the Nuke threat. We should let the Islam extremists know, in no uncertain terms, that if they ever use a WMD on our soil, that our response will be a strike on Mecca. As the old saying goes, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

I would ask those who have read this far, and want to flame me. What would you want the response to be, if your city or town were Nuked?

Elgesh']If it helps, I'm a barbaric scot, so I'm even _worse_ than northern peasants! Still, anyone living south of the border is a mincing sassanach with a tail, so...

where were we? :p

No, I was just giving a broad outline of the situation, as I say - and in a thumbnail sketch, the BNP is a would-be national party, but in reality a small minority force even where it's 'strongest' in the north of england - this relative strength being due to social and economic factors, as I also said. I'm not having a dig at northeners!
Fair enough.:D

That would probably be a Really Bad Idea, unless you want to encourage New York to be nuked.
For starters, It isn't like the terrorists are going to care about the lives of some prisoners who were associated with them that are doomed to prison anyway. Heck, many of them seem to barely care about themselves. As far as I can tell, what they care about is the supposed will of their God and the removal of Western influence.
Secondly, they'd just use the mass execution as a means to recruit more. They seem to like the "Westerners hate us" angle.
The business back in 2001 seems to ave proved that Americans have a slight problem with national securioty when it involves stuff that actually happens in the nation, rather than abroad, but even so, I'm dubious that it would be very possible for a group of bearded semitic terrorists to sneak a nuke through customs. (Assuming of course, that bin Laden was capable of obtaining one, which is very unlikely.)

What would you want the response to be, if your city or town were Nuked?
I wouldn't have any response: I'd be dead.

Shh, silly. The people on this forum only like criticising bad old Christianity, the font of all evil in the world! Why, who cares if Muslims use Islam as justification for depriving women of equal rights when modern Christianity is occasionally being taught as science in a few minor schools in the American deep south? As everyone knows, Islam is the faith of the poor people whom America oppresses so therefore it cannot be used for evil means!

Well, when you add up the dead of the latter twentieth century, theres a very large number of dead can be laid at the door of "christian" nations.

As for the faith of the poor, that depends on the region. Ronnie Raygun was perfectly happy to sponsor the killers of South American catholics. I've always maintained that America will turn on any poor nation regardless of its religion or ethnicity when it feels the need, however were I sitting in the occupied territories I might well see it as a "war on Islam" on behalf of the "great Satan".

And Christianity as such does not get a hard time. Its a certain attitude - a style of christianity - largely confined to America, that gets the goat of people. The smug hypocritical one that spouts baby Jesus and democracy outside one side of its mouth and coups, death squads and mass murder the other.

That's why I said, What would you want the response to be? I knew you would be dead.

That's why I said, What would you want the response to be? I knew you would be dead.
My mistake: I thought you said "what would your response be".

As a final thought on the Nuke threat. We should let the Islam extremists know, in no uncertain terms, that if they ever use a WMD on our soil, that our response will be a strike on Mecca. As the old saying goes, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.
In what way would nuking Mecca solve any of our problems? Most of the people in Mecca aren't going to be terrorists, and most of the terrorists aren't going to be in Mecca. And if you actually tell them that you'll strike Mecca, even less of the terrorists will be in Mecca. So you'll be killing mostly people that have nothing to do with the terrorism.
And why would a threat to Mecca stop the terrorists? Their leaders probably care more about injuring the West than they do about Mecca. They'd attack you, you'd nuke Mecca, and they'd use that to try to justify even more attacks, and the firestorm of anti-American sentiment that nuking Mecca would cause would help them to recruit enough manpower to actually go through with those attacks.

On top of this, many in the international community might now a little bit angry, seeing as you would have just nuked a couple of tens of thousands of people who didn't do anything to you. I can't see how this would help the US to be any safer from attack...
What would you want the response to be, if your city or town were Nuked?
Well, I wouldn't care about my town, I would care about me. Being dead, there wouldn't be much of a response that would fix that. Perhaps just an act of revenge out of spite, to exterminate the perpetrators?

If I were to actually care about my town, I wouldn't want to respond in a way that would encourage even more towns being nuked, as your idea would.

There's no doubt that the majority of Muslims are good people, but consider these interesting quotes from the Koran.

The Qur'an tells muslims to kill and go to war to fight for Islam: Quran, chapters (Surahs) 9:5; 2:191; 2:193; 3:118; 4:75,76; 5:33, 8:12; 8:65; 9:73,123; 33:60-62.
Fight for Allah: "And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers, (Quran 2:191).
Muslims are to battle for Allah: "Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil's strategy is ever weak," (Quran 4:76).
Kill those against Islam: "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter," (Quran 5:33).
Beheading: "When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. 13That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment," (Quran 8:12).
Allah urges war: "O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand," (Quran 8:65).
Slay non-muslims: "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful," (Quran 9:5).
Allah urges war: "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination," (Quran 9:73).
Allah urges war: "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil)," (Quran 9:123).
Allah urges killing: "...the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease and the agitators in the city do not desist... 61Cursed: wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering. 62(Such has been) the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah, (Quran 33:60-62).
Beheading: "Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens..." (Quran 47:4).
Allah loves those who fight for him. "Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure," (Quran 61:4).

Hmm, most Muslims are good people, but a good Muslim follows the Koran. Right?

Just remember, in order for any group to defeat the USA... they do not want to defeat US .. they cant.

They want US out of their lands.. they want US out of their Govs.. It is called Sovereignity.

ever heard of Evo Morales? ... he is no Arab ... he is no Muslim.
(so you cant use the "Islamist" card on him)

There's no doubt that the majority of Muslims are good people, but consider these interesting quotes from the Koran.

The Qur'an tells muslims to kill and go to war to fight for Islam: Quran, chapters (Surahs) 9:5; 2:191; 2:193; 3:118; 4:75,76; 5:33, 8:12; 8:65; 9:73,123; 33:60-62.
Fight for Allah: "And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers, (Quran 2:191).
Muslims are to battle for Allah: "Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil's strategy is ever weak," (Quran 4:76).
Kill those against Islam: "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter," (Quran 5:33).
Beheading: "When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. 13That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment," (Quran 8:12).
Allah urges war: "O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand," (Quran 8:65).
Slay non-muslims: "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful," (Quran 9:5).
Allah urges war: "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination," (Quran 9:73).
Allah urges war: "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil)," (Quran 9:123).
Allah urges killing: "...the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease and the agitators in the city do not desist... 61Cursed: wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering. 62(Such has been) the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah, (Quran 33:60-62).
Beheading: "Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens..." (Quran 47:4).
Allah loves those who fight for him. "Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure," (Quran 61:4).

Hmm, most Muslims are good people, but a good Muslim follows the Koran. Right?
Just like a Good Christian smites the wrongdoer who argues that the old testament is wrong that it is not wrong to lie with a man as one would with a woman, or who eats meat on a Friday, yes.

There's no doubt that the majority of Muslims are good people, but consider these interesting quotes from the Koran...

Hmm, most Muslims are good people, but a good Muslim follows the Koran. Right?

I think you can raise a very similar point with regards to christians and jews with their holy book. Just as an example that comes to mind, what god apparently told the israelites to do - genocide and rape - to gain their land after the flight from egypt is a horror story, disgusting stuff.

I gather the key is interpretation of these 'holy' books, as it is with all religions.

Elgesh']I think you can raise a very similar point with regards to christians and jews with their holy book. Just as an example that comes to mind, what god apparently told the israelites to do - genocide and rape - to gain their land after the flight from egypt is a horror story, disgusting stuff.

I gather the key is interpretation of these 'holy' books, as it is with all religions.
Precisely: it's only the lunatic elements who pay much attention to this kind of nonsense.

[QUOTE=Iron Spigot]There's no doubt that the majority of Muslims are good people, but consider these interesting quotes from the Koran.

[QUOTE]


Yep a wonderful example of somebody in a glass house with a big pile of stones.

Why don't we dig up a few beauties from the bible like -

"And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God..." (Deuteronomy 13: 5)

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;" (Deuteronomy 13: 6)

"Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people." (Deuteronomy 13:8-9)

"Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword." (Deuteronomy 13:15)

And a bit of Genocide....

"And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." (Ezekiel 9:5-6)


"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:2-3)

"Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." (Numbers 31:16-18)

Rape, anyone?

"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15-16)

Theres far more, but presumably you get the idea. Do feel free to quote more rampant bloodlust from the Koran without a trace of irony, introspection, or even the thought of who normally bombs, conquers and sponsors dictators though.

Elgesh']British National Party. Vaguely conservative, very racist, hate islam. They get a few local council seats in northern english cities with high unemployment and high % non-white population, sometimes a candidate will get 1000 or so votes in a national election.

they are not conservative and they are not Christian :mad:

they are just racist.

All the financial data is backed up on storage drives held at secure underground locations (the same is true for London), so there is no need to worry, the economy will not be harmed.
wow. That is perhaps the most naive statement EVER. Kill millions of people and billions of dollars? Wipe out the capital of the world?

they are not conservative and they are not Christian :mad:

they are just racist.I appreciate you using my style :D (disregard if it is a coincidence) ... he is not Arab.. and he is not Muslim.

(so you cant use the "Islamist" card on him)

Just like a Good Christian smites the wrongdoer who argues that the old testament is wrong that it is not wrong to lie with a man as one would with a woman, or who eats meat on a Friday, yes.


Way to go off-topic. This is a thread about Islam, not Christianity. Make a thread about Christianity, and i'll discuss the Biblical verse similar to the Koranic ones i posted.

...Wipe out the capital of the world?I would.. If I knew where it was.. :D
Would you care to point "the capital of the world" (on a map) to me..
:D :D :rolleyes: :D

they are not conservative and they are not Christian :mad:

they are just racist.

I didn't say they were christian, that was another poster; I was just explaining who they were. And the BNP is conservative (small 'c', obviously!) in their political outlook. I'm not having a dig at the Conservative Party, I'm just stating a fact!

Elgesh']I didn't say they were christian, that was another poster; I was just explaining who they were. And the BNP is conservative (small 'c', obviously!) in their political outlook. I'm not having a dig at the Conservative Party, I'm just stating a fact!

no! I'd rather you had a dig at the Conservative party, because they're not conservative. Conservatives with a little c are not racist bigots. I'm one and I'm not going around shouting "kill all black people" am I? no, it's a minority that give us a bad name and you believe them when they say they're conservative.

The BNP is just a racist organisation for the purpose of being racist and I'm insulted that you are comparing my beliefs to that of them.

Way to go off-topic. This is a thread about Islam, not Christianity. Make a thread about Christianity, and i'll discuss the Biblical verse similar to the Koranic ones i posted.

I don't think it's offtopic when considered in context - you brought up koranic verses that advocate violence - I and other posters responded with the fact that exactly the same can be said of other religions, including judaism and christianity; it's not a special vice that islam has, is our point, but true of all religions. It's not the sole - or even a particularly important - contributor to the rise of 'islamic' terrorism.

no! I'd rather you had a dig at the Conservative party, because they're not conservative. Conservatives with a little c are not racist bigots. I'm one and I'm not going around shouting "kill all black people" am I? no, it's a minority that give us a bad name and you believe them when they say they're conservative.

The BNP is just a racist organisation for the purpose of being racist and I'm insulted that you are comparing my beliefs to that of them.

Hey, guy, remain calm! I'm not saying conservatism is bad at all, I'd class myself as a conservative in many respects - my main 'things' in politics are: small government interference in individual's lives, the state as a regulator in business, do the things that it's inappropriate for the private sector to provide (army, law and order, maintainence of facilities etc.) and so on. But it is a fact that the BNP's policies, when they're not talking about 'dealing' with anyone who isn't white, could broadly be said to be conservative. I dislike that fact as much as any conservative would, but it's still true!

Don't shoot the messanger here, man!

Way to go off-topic. This is a thread about Islam, not Christianity. Make a thread about Christianity, and i'll discuss the Biblical verse similar to the Koranic ones i posted.Let me get this straight.. You post the flaws of Muslims.. and you expect them to shut their mouths about the sins other religions???

No man is without sin.
Christianity, Jews, Islam, Atheism etc.. are groups of men united by their faith (or lack of it)...

so no religion is without sin.

You cant possible expect to post the dark sides of someone else's religion.. and shut their mouths when they want to pay you in kind..

no man is without sin.. (Christianity, Jews, Islam, Atheism etc) are groups of men united by their faith (or lack of it)...

so no religion is without sin.

Please read my post. I said i would debate the Biblical verse that are like that in another thread.

I don't think it's offtopic when considered in context - you brought up koranic verses that advocate violence - I and other posters responded with the fact that exactly the same can be said of other religions, including judaism and christianity; it's not a special vice that islam has, is our point, but true of all religions. It's not the sole - or even a particularly important - contributor to the rise of 'islamic' terrorism.

Indeed, but Muslims are urged by the Koran (which they believe to be the very words of God) to kill unbelievers. The verses in the Bible that say so were only applicable to the ancient Israelites and no longer applicable in thic current dispensation. The verses in the Koran (any Muslims here please correct me if i'm wrong) are still applicable today.

Elgesh']Hey, guy, remain calm! I'm not saying conservatism is bad at all, I'd class myself as a conservative in many respects - my main 'things' in politics are: small government interference in individual's lives, the state as a regulator in business, do the things that it's inappropriate for the private sector to provide (army, law and order, maintainence of facilities etc.) and so on. But it is a fact that the BNP's policies, when they're not talking about 'dealing' with anyone who isn't white, could broadly be said to be conservative. I dislike that fact as much as any conservative would, but it's still true!

Don't shoot the messanger here, man!

How are they similar?

conservatives believe that abortion is wrong
BNP have no policy on it

conservatives believe in a smaller welfare state
BNP believe in giving welfare state to white people

conservatives believe in Christian values generally
BNP do not believe in any Christian values, christian values teach respect of everyone, although it does classify some people as sinners, judge not lest ye be judged. The BNP talk about doing more than judging probably very decent people.

I as a conservative believe that military is a bad thing
BNP want everyone to have a gun in their house to shoot black people


notice the similarities? I can't...

... in another thread...no need for another tread..

Defend your points right here...

this is the time.. this is the place.

no need for another tread..

Defend your points right here...

this is the time.. this is the place.

No. We're off-topic already. Make another thread and i'll be glad to do it, but this thread is about Islam. Not Christianity.

There's no doubt that the majority of Muslims are good people, but consider these interesting quotes from the Koran.

Fight for Allah: "And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers, (Quran 2:191).

Let's take a look at the verses before and after this one.

2:190 Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors.

2:192 But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

2:193 And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

Seen in context, it doesn't sound so evil anymore, does it?

I'm surely no expert, but I think I remember that Keruvalia posted somewhere that this one is a conversation between Allah and an angel about a certain battle.

I guess the other quotes should be seen in context as well.

No. We're off-topic already. Make another thread and i'll be glad to do it, but this thread is about Islam. Not Christianity.

To examine the Koran and claim its some sort of license to kill without reference to another religious text is deliberately trying to create conditions whereby an unfair depiction is made. You should have thought of the inevitability of somebody doing the obvious when you made that post. This whining about making "another thread" is merely underlining your lack of a credible argument.

And while we're at it, where does it say, specifically, that those verses I quoted earlier no longer apply?

In what way would nuking Mecca solve any of our problems? Most of the people in Mecca aren't going to be terrorists, and most of the terrorists aren't going to be in Mecca. And if you actually tell them that you'll strike Mecca, even less of the terrorists will be in Mecca.

If I were to actually care about my town, I wouldn't want to respond in a way that would encourage even more towns being nuked, as your idea would.

I'm glad you made this post, it gives me a chance to explain what I meant by telling the world that our response to being hit with a WMD would be to strike Mecca.

This would be an object lesson to them, that their most holy place would be destroyed. Maybe, just maybe, the 98% of muslims that aren't extremists would take up the battle against those that are, and convince them never to use WMD's against anyone.

This is not a war where you can take the high ground and defeat the enemy as they advance toward you. This is a religous war, and a war of wills to see who will back down first. As long as the Islam fanatics have safe havens in various places they will continue to attack western values around the world. Because of the lack of indignation on the part of the rest of the Muslim world, then one has to believe the 98% support in many ways, what the 2% (terrorists) are doing, in the name of Allah. Remember the dancing in the streets when NY City was hit?

Killing the residents who live in Mecca would not be the point of destroying it. The point would be to show we have the will to stand up and fight against those who want to destroy our way of life. Let every man, woman and child leave the city, then make it glow like Chernobl (SP) so no one can enter it for a thousand years.

If young men being recruited by the terrorists know their actions might mean the end of Mecca, then my belief is, they will not join.

I would still like to hear other ideas as to the proper response to an attack on American soil. And to say, we have brought it on ourselves, and deserve what we get, is an answer I will never accept.

I'm glad you made this post, it gives me a chance to explain what I meant by telling the world that our response to being hit with a WMD would be to strike Mecca.

This would be an object lesson to them, that their most holy place would be destroyed. Maybe, just maybe, the 98% of muslims that aren't extremists would take up the battle against those that are, and convince them never to use WMD's against anyone.
I'm not so sure that this would teach them a lesson which you would like. I don't think everyday, non-terrorist people, in the position of just having their holy city destroyed, or perhaps even having relatives and friends die, would flock to support you. I think the lesson they would try to extrapolate is that you don't care much about them and are willing to hurt them.
This is not a war where you can take the high ground and defeat the enemy as they advance toward you. This is a religous war, and a war of wills to see who will back down first. As long as the Islam fanatics have safe havens in various places they will continue to attack western values around the world. Because of the lack of indignation on the part of the rest of the Muslim world, then one has to believe the 98% support in many ways, what the 2% (terrorists) are doing, in the name of Allah. Remember the dancing in the streets when NY City was hit?
I do not remember the dancing in the streets.
Somehow, I doubt that the citizens of the Muslim countries are all responsible, and that there is a "lack of indignation" or some sort of widely-held anti-American sentiment. From what I remember, we had Muslim allies in the war in Afghanistan, and that I've heard reports about the voting in Afghyanistan and Iraq where people generally said they liked it.
Also, I'm not sure a lack of indignation is something that we can accuse such a wide population of without becoming hypocrites. Surely, if we are using generalizations, America has neglected and not been indignant over some conflicts? Aren't we at fault for them too then?
Killing the residents who live in Mecca would not be the point of destroying it. The point would be to show we have the will to stand up and fight against those who want to destroy our way of life. Let every man, woman and child leave the city, then make it glow like Chernobl (SP) so no one can enter it for a thousand years.
But you wouldn't be fighting them. They aren't based in Mecca, and they wouldn't stay there if they knew you'd nuke it. You would be fighting the citizens of Mecca, most of whom never fought you.
If young men being recruited by the terrorists know their actions might mean the end of Mecca, then my belief is, they will not join.
But terrorist groups already have members. If you do nuke Mecca, then your idea here will no longer work, as the fact that Mecca had been nuked would swell membership even more.
I would still like to hear other ideas as to the proper response to an attack on American soil. And to say, we have brought it on ourselves, and deserve what we get, is an answer I will never accept.
Well, I'd say that if you want to respond to terror, you should take action against those people who actually did it, in such a manner as not to cause others to attack you. Hunt them down, if you wish. But, bring them to trial, to try to act in a manner widely regarded as "just", because otherwise you'll worsen your problem by making their claims true.

For those who do not remember dancing in the streets, here is a quote from
Tony Parsons. You can go to http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/m/mirror-parsons.htm
if you would like to read the whole article.

When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that - and didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism". A real war.

Just one thing the true essence of Islam "La Ilaha Illallahu Muhammadur Rasoolullah" Which means in english "There is none worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammed is the messanger of Allah." and not "Lakum deenukum waliya deeni"( Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion") or your translation of "For you your religion, for me my religion." Surah al Kafirun ayah 6(Chapter the Disbelievers verse 6) As for this statement "All too many Muslims fail to grasp Islam, which teaches one to be lenient towards others and to understand their value systems, knowing that these are tolerated by Islam as a religion." Not really, actually the basis of Islam is to be submissive unto the will of Allah and to except Muhammed as Allah's last of all his prophet's. Also the Islamic deen (faith/religion) is the only one to be understud and not others because Allah has sent his deen through the prophet's and finalized it with the advent of Muhammed. His sunnah and Allah's Quran are the things that has been sent to mankind out of the kindness of the Rabb(Lord) and his deen is the only one which will get you into heaven....alone.

"This crisis of misunderstanding--of Islam by Muslims themselves--is compounded by the failure of governments, people of other faiths" That little quotation bit i have a problem with.....Why should we al kafirun(the disbelievers) have to correct the mistake those of the Muslims? Its not our fault that they are excepting an extreme interpretaion of their Quran. I believe that this isnt my fault or my fellow kafirun faults because Islam is in a bad way right now, seeing that none of us persent day kafirun today were alive some 1400+ years ago when Islam came around and it neither wasn't the fault of the kafirun of the past's fault.

So don't go saying its our fault when its not. Also what Islam truely is was already highlighted with the opening of this reply with the Shahada or Kalimah(Decleration of Faith) its pretty self-explanitory what Islam is about when you read or hear those words and if your still having trouble of wondering what Islam is truely about try listening to the Adan or Azan(Call to prayer) that to, is pretty self-explananitory of what Islam truely is.

Also we as kafirun truely cannot tell what Islam is to the Muslim seeing that we ourselfs are not Muslims. If any Muslim by this point is still having trouble of wanting to know what Islam is about, try reading the Quran because it says in surah ayah Ad-Dukhan(Smoke) "Fa-innama yassarnahu bilisanika laAAallahum yatathakkaroona." or in English: "Verily, We have made this (Qur'an) easy, in thy tongue, in order that they may give heed." If the Muslim(s) in question are still having trouble having problems with understanding what Al Islam is than they should.....well I don't know try a new faith or just stay in ignorance or do whatever they have to do.

But it looks like it will have to be us the kafirun to fix their mistakes after all! If they do not do it themselves.

(In this letter of responce when the words "you" or "your" or anything related to that I didn't mean you directly seeing that you weren't responcible of writing this report.)

I do not remember the dancing in the streets.
There was some new footage of Palestinians who were happy that something bad had happened to the country who've been bankrolling Israel since the '60s. Presumably, as these were arabic looking sorts (turbans, beards, robes) they were representative of the scenes of jubilation and approval throughout the whole of the middle east, because all of these towel heads think the same.

To examine the Koran and claim its some sort of license to kill without reference to another religious text is deliberately trying to create conditions whereby an unfair depiction is made. You should have thought of the inevitability of somebody doing the obvious when you made that post. This whining about making "another thread" is merely underlining your lack of a credible argument.

And while we're at it, where does it say, specifically, that those verses I quoted earlier no longer apply?

Allright, i was just trying to stay on topic. The reason these verse no longer apply is because we are under a different dispensation. The Israelites were under the dispensation of Law, we are under Grace. God now gives men a chance to repent, and turn to Him believing on Jesus Christ for forgiveness.
(Acts 17:29-31)

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:38-48

There was some new footage of Palestinians who were happy that something bad had happened to the country who've been bankrolling Israel since the '60s. Presumably, as these were arabic looking sorts (turbans, beards, robes) they were representative of the scenes of jubilation and approval throughout the whole of the middle east, because all of these towel heads think the same.


That's true self proclaimed "Palestinains" were dancing in the streets on 9/11. Thats something I will never forget seeing while I watched the towers fall they were dancing(splint screen of course) along side of it.

That's true self proclaimed "Palestinains" were dancing in the streets on 9/11. Thats something I will never forget seeing while I watched the towers fall they were dancing(splint screen of course) along side of it.

And they'll never forget that the US has been Israel's staunchest ally for decades. They resent the US, pure and simple. If I were one of them I'd probably be quite happy that the US had just been kicked in the (psychological) bollocks.

See my sig for a useful tip in these situations.

That's true self proclaimed "Palestinains" were dancing in the streets on 9/11. Thats something I will never forget seeing while I watched the towers fall they were dancing(splint screen of course) along side of it.
I find it astonishing that anybody was surprised by that, to be honest. America's support for Israel is the main reason that every fundamentalist in the middle east hates your guts, after all.

Lads, screw it - if the US nuked Mecca in a fit of pique, I'dfight against them, so heaven knows what I'd do if I was a muslim of any persuasion. Wanton murder to make a political point, indiscriminate targeting of civilians to instil fear and break the will of a people, the use of violence without the possibility of a peaceful end without changing people's beliefs and sovreignty...

Which side'd the terrorists be again? :p

No, seriously, the suggestion 'nuke mecca' is totally without merit as a political or diplomatic move.

A response to another attack within American borders? More of what you're doing currently, and think long term consequences. Increase intelligence gathering and infiltration; targeted assassination if needed and capture and trial if possible; improve your reputation abroad - be seen to be mindful of international opinion (I know it doesn't _matter_ per se, but you need better PR), the serving president could appoint a muslim-american as a member of his cabinet/staff and _not_ make a huge fuss over it (showing tolerance and meritocracy - again, it's the PR potential); give additional aid, trade, and support to muslim countries (PR!) that make a peaceful gesture to you. And so on. You can't fix this overnight, you've got to think in terms of decades and generations.

Elgesh']Lads, screw it - if the US nuked Mecca in a fit of pique, I'dfight against them, so heaven knows what I'd do if I was a muslim of any persuasion. Wanton murder to make a political point, indiscriminate targeting of civilians to instil fear and break the will of a people, the use of violence without the possibility of a peaceful end without changing people's beliefs and sovreignty...

Which side'd the terrorists be again? :p

No, seriously, the suggestion 'nuke mecca' is totally without merit as a political or diplomatic move.
Apart from anything else, if Bush was to get up one morning and nuke Mecca, it probably wouldn't just be the fundamentalists who regarded America as the great Satan anymore, and if every muslim in the middle east had suddenly become a jihadist overnight, wherever would they be able to buy oil from?

If non Muslims (especially for Christians) really believe that Islam is a world threat, then why aren't there Muslims with heavy boots and machine guns patrolling your streets? Who is entrenching on who's land? They are just creating a threat that doesn't exist. I understand that sept 11 was a test for Americans and secular Muslims but when the finger is pointed to Islam, that's going way out of hand. Every religion has fanatics, we all know that, so let's approach this problem in a different way. Lands belonging to Muslims have been divided and colonized, and most oppressed people won by committing an endless insurgency (like Iraq against Great Britain, Algeria against France), so how will Muslims perceive non Muslims again enforcing themselves on them, on their own lands. Before anyone ignorantly replies to my sayings, think about how would you react if someone was on your land illegally? would you shower them with flowers:D Almost all Muslims don't care about this empire thing Osama seems to aspire to, besides, guess why Osama is hiding in the mountains, it's not because he's scared of America but he is scared of angry Muslims who believe this man is hijacking a great religion for himself. If Muslims supported this man, then why is he in the mountains? Western countries make him look as if he's a charismatic leader for Muslims, bull, especially how western countries keep giving this guy air time on the news.

Hmm, most Muslims are good people, but a good Muslim follows the Koran. Right?

Two things:

1] You've never read Qur'an. I'd bet $100 US on it right now.

2] CONTEXT. Make it your friend.

I'm glad you made this post, it gives me a chance to explain what I meant by telling the world that our response to being hit with a WMD would be to strike Mecca.


Firstly you exaggerate the scale of militant Islam. Secondly by targeting a sacred site to punish an entire people for the actions of a few, you've donned Osamas cloak.

I'm beginning to think that the Jihadi is the secular Americans Horseman of the Apocalypse - he enables a whole new world of doomsaying. Next there'll be a revival in survivalism.....


When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving Palestinians were dancing in the street.

The US has been responsible for the denial of redress to the Palestinian people for decades. 33 UN vetoes to protect Israel from the same fate that was threatened to Syria if it didnt pull out of Lebanon. What do you expect them to do? I doubt if there were too many tears shed in Cambodia, Nicaragua or Guatamala either.

The reason these verse no longer apply is because we are under a different dispensation. The Israelites were under the dispensation of Law, we are under Grace. God now gives men a chance to repent, and turn to Him believing on Jesus Christ for forgiveness.
(Acts 17:29-31)

Well done. And of course, not having placed that interpretation plus quotes beside the whole Old Testament bit,you could say I have quoted the Bible out of its full context, haven't I?

And could you now explain, relating to the whole "turn the other cheek business" how the the christian right approve of the death penalty, the war in Iraq, and (in the case of Robertson) bumping off Hugo Chavez? And yes, we are still on topic.

Two things:

1] You've never read Qur'an. I'd bet $100 US on it right now.

2] CONTEXT. Make it your friend.

You're right, i've never read the Koran. I've read parts, but thats it.

And you want context? Read this verse from the Koran regarding women:

[4.32] And do not covet that by which Allah has made some of you excel others; men shall have the benefit of what they earn and women shall have the benefit of what they earn; and ask Allah of His grace; surely Allah knows all things.
[4.33] And to every one We have appointed heirs of what parents and near relatives leave; and as to those with whom your rights hands have ratified agreements, give them their portion; surely Allah is a witness over all things.
[4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
[4.35] And if you fear a breach between the two, then appoint judge from his people and a judge from her people; if they both desire agreement, Allah will effect harmony between them, surely Allah is Knowing, Aware.
[4.36] And serve Allah and do not associate any thing with Him and be good to the parents and to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the neighbor of (your) kin and the alien neighbor, and the companion in a journey and the wayfarer and those whom your right hands possess; surely Allah does not love him who is proud, boastful;

And could you now explain, relating to the whole "turn the other cheek business" how the the christian right approve of the death penalty, the war in Iraq, and (in the case of Robertson) bumping off Hugo Chavez? And yes, we are still on topic.

Because the majority of "Christians" are in a state of apostasy and no longer follow the Bible 100%. This was prophesied by Apostle Paul.

1 Timothy 4:
1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;"


2 Timothy 3:
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

The true mission of the Church given by Jesus Christ is to work at winning souls. It isn't a social mission, it isn't a political one, it is spiritual.

Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

And you want context? Read this verse from the Koran regarding women:


I had thought that I'd got the idea across about pulling quotes out of context across, but that must have been a rare stroke of optimism which has now passed.....we may not see its like again in my lifetime...

What does Paul say about womens role? Do you think its particularily forward thinking? And yes, its new testament too, isn't it? You'll find that the status of women is almost universally linked to economic development and that interpretations of womens roles as laid down by religous belief change to accommodate this. It was only a relatively short time ago that women in the West didnt even have the vote, and that was backed by interpretation of the Bible.

Because the majority of "Christians" are in a state of apostasy and no longer follow the Bible 100%. This was prophesied by Apostle Paul.

Which is what a majority of Muslims say about the interpretation of Bin Laden and co. They are "apostate". Of course the Osama club say it about the rest, the Shia say it about the Sunni, the Sunni about the Shia and both about the Druze. However you should be able to gauge from the vastly differing interpretations of the Christian Bible that one cannot just blame the book for the various actions of the followers, as the same texts have produced martyrs to peace, inquisitions, murder and decency. In addition most people who might describe themselves as christian, while not nessarily saints, are not evil. Why therefore should the same not be said of the Koran amd muslims?

What does Paul say about womens role? Do you think its particularily forward thinking?...


...one cannot just blame the book for the various actions of the followers, as the same texts have produced martyrs to peace, inquisitions, murder and decency. In addition most people who might describe themselves as christian, while not nessarily saints, are not evil. Why therefore should the same not be said of the Koran amd muslims?

seconded - eloquently put, guy :)

[4.32-36] with bold text on the beating part.

Mmkay ...

1] Bad translation. It doesn't say beat them. The word used is "daraba", which is used in Qur'an with about 17 different meanings including avoid, separate, leave, travel, etc. The Qur'an is best interpreted through the actions of Muhammad(pbuh). The fact that the Prophet never beat or raised his hand to any of his wives and detested such actions gives credence that the meaning intended here by "wadribuhunna" is to stay away from her in the hope that she will realise an impending divorce.

2] This is actually pretty nice. Ask most guys in the Western world, with Western sensibilities nowdays what they'd do if they caught their wife cheating on them, they'd say "KILL! KILL KILL!!!!!" Allah instructs us to first speak, then if that doesn't work, stop sexual relations, then if that doesn't work, stay away from the wife, and finally divorce.

Now is that an acceptable response, or would you prefer to stick with the idea that I am allowed to beat my wife?