NationStates Jolt Archive

$100K per unarmoured jeep, useless in combat, priced so high just so it can fit into an Osprey (http://money.cnn.com/2005/12/29/news/military_jeep/).... and naturally they need FOUR HUNDRED of them...


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) - The Marine Corps is paying $100,000 apiece for a revamped military jeep that some critics call a rip-off of taxpayers, according to a news report Thursday.

The Marines budgeted to buy more than 400 vehicles, called Growlers, under a contract that could total $296 million including ammunition, USA Today said, citing Pentagon records.

Built by Ocala, Fla.-based American Growler, the Growler is made partly from salvaged M151 jeep parts and is available in several versions.


Four years ago, the Dominican Republic paid $33,000 for a version of the Growler, the paper said citing U.S. Export-Import Bank records.

A commercial version of the jeep costs just $7,500.

The Marines and the contractor, General Dynamics, said the vehicle has been thoroughly revised with modern automotive parts and adapted to fit on the hybrid airplane-helicopter V-22 Osprey, according to the paper.

"Yes, it did start off with jeep technology, and it does look like a jeep in a lot of ways," John Garner, the Marines project manager, told the paper. But he says it's now "state of the art."

The Marines' version has considerable upgrades from the commercial and Dominican models, the Corps and contractor said, including a turbo-diesel engine, disc brakes and other systems adapted from modern vehicles.

...

Under current military safety rules, the Growler would be barred from service in Iraq except as a utility vehicle that doesn't leave the security of a base, according to the report.

"In a time of war, we should not be wasting money on a junker which will not protect our troops," Danielle Brian, executive director of the Project on Government Oversight, a non-profit group that monitors Pentagon contracts, told the paper.

The Growler is expected to be deployed with the V-22 in 2007, the paper said.



Just what the hell IS a "state-of-the-art" unarmoured jeep?

Have they finally put in a cupholder?



It has become clear to me. I HAVE to open a company dedicated to selling to the military if I want a really early retirement. You know, whip up the new and improved $300 toilet seat or something....

It has become clear to me. I HAVE to open a company dedicated to selling to the military if I want a really early retirement. You know, whip up the new and improved $300 toilet seat or something....
If you really want to capture that market, you'll get nowhere charging paltry sums like $300 per toilet. You'll need to impress your clients with your sheer audacity - add a zero and then multiply it by three. Otherwise, they won't respect you.

Load of crap as always.

There really is this complex of people who are on boards of defence companies one year and then heads of some Pentagon department the next. And they're all just in there to make money.

And besides, they should've bought these (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/wolf.htm).

http://www.angelfire.com/biz7/troopgear/151s.html - top two pics.

$100k. ROFL.

They look like fucking golf carts.

They look like fucking golf carts.
Have some respect. These are state of the art US military golf carts!

I am actually impressed at the restraint. We've come a long way since the $500 hammers and $300 'tactical' toliet seats.

At this rate the procurement process should look somewhat normal by around 2015.

Those things better have rocket launchers that come out of nowhere and built-in toasters.

Have some respect. These are state of the art US military golf carts!
I didn't see any cupholders in the pics...

Have some respect. These are state of the art US military golf carts!

For $100k, they better be able to, like, evade bullets WITHOUT BEING CONTROLLED.

I didn't see any cupholders in the pics...

Because they are stealth cupholders, obviously. :rolleyes:

Even the Dominican Republic got ripped off. :rolleyes:

I bet they're going to sell them to the new Iraqi Army at a cool million each.

Because they are stealth cupholders, obviously. :rolleyes:
*slaps own forehead*

That's IT!

Invisible, ultra-light jeeps! Store as many in an Osprey as you want, 'cause they fold up on their own like Transformers.

That's a million-dollar con if ever there was one. Just get a fat advance and voom.

Have some respect. These are state of the art US military golf carts!

No it's not. It's basically a modded golf cart. See?


Our M-151A2(Growler UV100) Based Jeep Vehicles Are Fully Remanufactured to As-new specifications. Our 151's are virtually hand-built from the ground up utilizing original 151 components, As Our Tactical Combat Dune Buggies & Mini HUMMVEEs'. Each system is fully remanufactured or replaced.

Remanufactured. Just look at that new fuel tank, the old one was 2 days old. This one is brand new!

And hand built too. Just look at that sheen, that workmanship! No cheap ass mass production for you Mr Pentagon. Only the finest of hand crafted items.

Original 151 components! Don't buy those cheap Taiwanese knockoffs even though they're as good as the originals! Get the originals! Only then will be worthy of the title money si- erhm Growler.

First rule of government spending: Why build one when you can have two at twice the price?

They stripped down a bunch of Korean War vintage jeeps, gave them some oil and a lick of paint, and put them together again. :rolleyes:

The whole project is going to cost $296m?!

Yeah, the V-22 is going to look really badass deploying golf carts onto the battlefield.

I hope the people in charge get named, shamed and fired.

For the Osprey? Did they finally get that fucking thing to work?

Even the Dominican Republic got ripped off. :rolleyes:

Yeah, but the Dominican Republic can be sympathised with.

Arnen't osprey endangered birds?

Arnen't osprey endangered birds?

Just like the Osprey project :p

The miserable things crashed on any number of flight tests if I recall correctly.

I thought it's been spelled out many times before. The overcharges are actually money being funneled into black projects. Since the budget can easily be seen by a foreign power. The military masks programs within other budgets. Therefore overcharging for items and then accounting for the billions they are spending on black projects. ;) How do you think the stealth tech was developed?

I thought it's been spelled out many times before. The overcharges are actually money being funneled into black projects. Since the budget can easily be seen by a foreign power. The military masks programs within other budgets. Therefore overcharging for items and then accounting for the billions they are spending on black projects. ;) How do you think the stealth tech was developed?Why would anyone want a government that does sneaky shit like that? For what? more death technology.

Because we NEEEEEEED stealth technology. :sniper:

I thought it's been spelled out many times before. The overcharges are actually money being funneled into black projects. Since the budget can easily be seen by a foreign power. The military masks programs within other budgets. Therefore overcharging for items and then accounting for the billions they are spending on black projects. ;) How do you think the stealth tech was developed?
With the black budget, the huge sum of money dedicated every year to unspecified classified projects? They do actually mention it, just not the details. Anything else would be defrauding the taxpayer.

EDIT: Besides, you forget where the money goes. It leaves the US military's pocket. That $296m, the military had it, it spends it on a contract with a truck company - if the company's bank doesn't see the money, alarm bells ring and someone is seeing a lot of jail time. The money can't be funneled anywhere, because you're talking about civilian-run subcontractors who have to comply with tax regulations.

For the Osprey? Did they finally get that fucking thing to work?

No.

They look like fucking golf carts.

Yeah - but they're green!

Doncha know that army green paint is really, really expensive?

Besides, they had to charge an extra $20K per to remove the side mirrors so they'd fit in the plane....

Yeah - but they're green!

Doncha know that army green paint is really, really expensive?

Besides, they had to charge an extra $20K per to remove the side mirrors so they'd fit in the plane....

At least the US has the intelligence to buy their own stuff, even if it is a waste of money.

Far better, say, than buying old used-up UK submarines that leak and catch fire.

Far better, say, than buying old used-up UK submarines that leak and catch fire.

Buying hideously overcharged jeeps for aircraft that have a tendency to become burning wrecks on the ground is not exactly an intelligent choice either. The majority if not all of Osprey test flights to date have been abysmall, with at least a few of them meeting the ground the hard way.

Pentagons sweet, have you ever been there?

[url=http://money.cnn.com/2005/12/29/news/military_jeep/]It has become clear to me. I HAVE to open a company dedicated to selling to the military if I want a really early retirement. You know, whip up the new and improved $300 toilet seat or something....
We just finished selling off a telescope to NASA. You don't want to be involved with the government. I'd say 50% of our bid and more like 65% of our actual work was devoted to documentation. Mil-Spec this, Mil-Std that, it is a nightmare to deal with the government.

I can't justify $100K for Jeeps because I haven't seen the contract, but it doesn't surprise me that the total cost ends up that high.

For $100k, I expect those damn golf carts to sprout wings and a fucking propeller and fly to Iraq them damn selves.

And they wonder why I laugh at the US precurement process, "as long as it is US made, who gives a flying fuck whether it actually does the job AND is value for money'.

In New Zealand the Navey has already been raked over the knuckles for not choosing to purchase a frigget made in Korea and then refitted with New Zealand parts - I think the Navey would have saved a few million.

Thats the problem with the US defence force, too much cash, not enough accountability when money is spent.

And they wonder why I laugh at the US precurement process, "as long as it is US made, who gives a flying fuck whether it actually does the job AND is value for money'.

In New Zealand the Navey has already been raked over the knuckles for not choosing to purchase a frigget made in Korea and then refitted with New Zealand parts - I think the Navey would have saved a few million.

Thats the problem with the US defence force, too much cash, not enough accountability when money is spent.
But that's the rub. After a few $600 hammers, the civilians at DoD decided that more auditors would solve the cost problems. More auditors just meant more paperwork. That meant that the companies doing the work had to bid more on projects to include the compliance costs. The government added even more auditors because costs weren't going down. And so on.

Let's say we have a system that we sell to some commercial outfit. We sell it for X dollars. That gives us a certain gross margin. If we sell the same system to the government, we need to charge about X*1.5 to cover all of the compliance costs and still get the same gross margin. It just doesn't pay to do government contracts if you can't factor in the extra costs.

But that's the rub. After a few $600 hammers, the civilians at DoD decided that more auditors would solve the cost problems. More auditors just meant more paperwork. That meant that the companies doing the work had to bid more on projects to include the compliance costs. The government added even more auditors because costs weren't going down. And so on.

Let's say we have a system that we sell to some commercial outfit. We sell it for X dollars. That gives us a certain gross margin. If we sell the same system to the government, we need to charge about X*1.5 to cover all of the compliance costs and still get the same gross margin. It just doesn't pay to do government contracts if you can't factor in the extra costs.

The stupid part is this; when the NZ defence force was deployed to East Timor, they arrived on UNDER budget, and ontime.

Vs. the US mentality of shipping a whole heap of shit over, then shipping back the surplus that they didn't need - thats plain stupid in anyones books.

With the black budget, the huge sum of money dedicated every year to unspecified classified projects? They do actually mention it, just not the details. Anything else would be defrauding the taxpayer.

EDIT: Besides, you forget where the money goes. It leaves the US military's pocket. That $296m, the military had it, it spends it on a contract with a truck company - if the company's bank doesn't see the money, alarm bells ring and someone is seeing a lot of jail time. The money can't be funneled anywhere, because you're talking about civilian-run subcontractors who have to comply with tax regulations.

Hey this is America buddy we are world champion tax dodgers.

Just like the Osprey project :p

The miserable things crashed on any number of flight tests if I recall correctly.
Yeah and they pulled them out of service and put 5 years into getting it right.

They passed trials this summer and the first production ones have entered service.

http://www.boeing.com/rotorcraft/military/v22/images/v22_C12-27039-1_300x375.jpg

This picture kind of illustrates why they need something besides the Humvee, they won't fit inside an Osprey. And while they can sling one, it can't transition while carrying one.

This picture kind of illustrates why they need something besides the Humvee, they won't fit inside an Osprey. And while they can sling one, it can't transition while carrying one.
'Course it won't fit inside an H-46 or CH-53, either. If transportability by helo is a good idea, then something much smaller is going to be needed to augment the hummer fleet.

'Course it won't fit inside an H-46 or CH-53, either. If transportability by helo is a good idea, then something much smaller is going to be needed to augment the hummer fleet.

Don't they already have some kind of lightweight three man dune buggy?

Don't they already have some kind of lightweight three man dune buggy?
There's something Special Forces use. I'm not quite sure what purpose this new machine is supposed to serve.

That's another thing about government programs. The value of the program is a secondary consideration. Maybe ever lower. The most important factor in a program's success is how good the program manager is. A good PM can get even get something like the F-18 E/F through the mill.

Look it's a question of durability versus speed of deployment. All the armor in the world won't do any good if you can't get the transport where you need it in time. Did you notice how few of these things they actually ordered? Your 'golfcart' is a specialized peice of equipment to be deployed in verry specific circumstances. It's not General Issue. It's not that pricy if you consider the volume in which it is being produced.