NationStates Jolt Archive

I have heard the arguement that people who do wrong things are not actually bad people. They will say something like: "he's not bad his heart is good!" Yeah, he robbed someone but deep inside he is kind. Right. Does anyone believe the idea of doing wrong things but being "good inside" actually means anything or is it just bullshit?

Not really, if he was "good inside" why'd he rob the bank?

I have heard the arguement that people who do wrong things are not actually bad people. They will say something like: "he's not bad his heart is good!" Yeah, he robbed someone but deep inside he is kind. Right. Does anyone believe the idea of doing wrong things but being "good inside" actually means anything or is it just bullshit?
It's usually the reaction that a mother, father, or neighbor has upon being told that their child or neighbor is the newest Ted Bundy. Total and complete denial.

Not really, if he was "good inside" why'd he rob the bank?

His child was starving and the bank owner had kicked him in the face while he was working in the company few weeks before the accident?

Not really, if he was "good inside" why'd he rob the bank?To buy christmas presents for the orphans. ?

I have heard the arguement that people who do wrong things are not actually bad people. They will say something like: "he's not bad his heart is good!" Yeah, he robbed someone but deep inside he is kind. Right. Does anyone believe the idea of doing wrong things but being "good inside" actually means anything or is it just bullshit?
It really depends. I would absolutely say that there is a difference between someone who murders people for pleasure, and someone who, while committing a crime, ends up taking someone's life while trying to escape, etc. I think remorse is important too. If you take joy in killing someone, and think you were justified, you are different than someone who killed out of necessity, or desperation, and who is genuinely sorry. We recognise these things in our laws as well.

I really think it needs to be considered on a case by case basis. What was the motivation? What was the intent? What was the severity of the crime? I believe that certain actions must be punished...but I do believe that someone can be criminal, and still good...just as someone who is not criminal, can be a truly horrible person inside. Of course, the former will be punished, and the latter will not...as is right.

I think ultimately everyone has some good in them but a lot of the time the way they've been brought up or the people they've come in contact with or the situations they end up in force the bad side of them to shine through and act over the good side

Nobody thinks of him or herself as a bad person. Hitler thought he was doing the world a favor. It's not hard to convince people that you're basically a nice person even if you've done or are doing something wrong. Some people, like relatives, want to believe you. Others crave companionship enough to overlook the bad things you do as long as you'll be their friend or show interest in them.

His child was starving and the bank owner had kicked him in the face while he was working in the company few weeks before the accident?

In which case the act was good from the outset so we don't have to say "he's good inside", he's good on the outside too (assuming he didn't hurt anyone in the robbery or take more than he needed). It's actually more virtuous than shoplifting from a small cornershop as banks tend to insure their money.

It's usually the reaction that a mother, father, or neighbor has upon being told that their child or neighbor is the newest Ted Bundy. Total and complete denial.
You don't need to go that extreme though...that sort of disbelief exists in the relatives and friends of less terrible criminals too. Sometimes because our laws are unjust. Someone is arrested for having a quantity of pot that just exceeds the level which defines trafficking. Whether that person intended to traffick or not...or just has a major habit, the charge reflects the quantity. Is this person a horrible drug dealer? Is this person bad inside?

I think its just hypocrite and childish to say "that man is evil" because he has done something bad. Doing bad is not = evil person. It always depends on the spesific situation and the factors that make the person act like he does. Very, very few people are actually "evil".

It's usually the reaction that a mother, father, or neighbor has upon being told that their child or neighbor is the newest Ted Bundy. Total and complete denial.
And there's usually one member of the family who stands to the side and says "yeah, he was a douchebag and everyone knew it." That member then gets uninvited from Christmas for a couple of years.

In which case the act was good from the outset so we don't have to say "he's good inside", he's good on the outside too (assuming he didn't hurt anyone in the robbery or take more than he needed). It's actually more virtuous than shoplifting from a small cornershop as banks tend to insure their money.

Yea. But on the other hand, you can do like these people here and state taht "He did commit a crime, crime is bad, that man is evil."

That's exactly what I tried to explain with that example. It always depends, it's never black and white.

I think its just hypocrite and childish to say "that man is evil" because he has done something bad. Doing bad is not = evil person. It always depends on the spesific situation and the factors that make the person act like he does. Very, very few people are actually "evil".

There are people who say get addicted to drugs and then commit crimes to pay for the habit. You can say, "it's the drugs, he would never do anything like that otherwise", try to excuse the actions. Or maybe the person has an anger problem and may get physical occasionaly but really they are good! It is just hard for me to believe that they are so when their actions show that they are not in fact a good person.

I think its just hypocrite and childish to say "that man is evil" because he has done something bad. Doing bad is not = evil person. It always depends on the spesific situation and the factors that make the person act like he does. Very, very few people are actually "evil".
I agree. Evil is a simple word...but humans are complex. Which is why I also reject the concept of 'good' in the sense it is being used here. DC is right that no one considers themselves a truly bad person...most people who commit crimes feel somewhat justified in doing so. Even if that justification makes no damn sense to us, it's a way for a person to live with the decision they've made. That is of course assuming that there was some planning involved...when things go out of control, and something happens, personal justification may not be an issue. Consider the drunk driver. That person isn't drinking and driving with the express intention of hurting someone. They probably aren't even taking that into consideration...but it is this gross lack of consideration for others which is their primary crime. Even if no one is actually hurt, the very fact that someone would disregard so completely the saftey of others is in itself a breach of the social contract. But is that person 'bad'...or simply too selfish? They could do good deeds every other second of their life for all we know. The question is...how much does that matter?

There are people who say get addicted to drugs and then commit crimes to pay for the habit. You can say, "it's the drugs, he would never do anything like that otherwise", try to excuse the actions. Or maybe the person has an anger problem and may get physical occasionaly but really they are good! It is just hard for me to believe that they are so when their actions show that they are not in fact a good person.
You mean, not ALL good. But again...I think it's the rare person that is ALL bad.

You mean, not ALL good. But again...I think it's the rare person that is ALL bad.

What are we doing percentages now? You can be 90% Bad but 10% Good and you are still ok? If you are a criminal or simply a jerk continually but occassionally you manage to do something selfless that does not make the individual alright.

Yea. But on the other hand, you can do like these people here and state taht "He did commit a crime, crime is bad, that man is evil."

That's exactly what I tried to explain with that example. It always depends, it's never black and white.

Then it would seem that we are in agreement.

*bows*

*leaves the thread, never to return*

Of course it's possible. Morals are relative. Any action can be justified, no matter how abhorrent it may be to our own way of thinking, and even if we cannot see how it can be justified from our external viewpoint.

Then it would seem that we are in agreement.

*bows*

*leaves the thread, never to return*

Well a single act does not make who you are, for me it is more on a pattern of behavior.

What are we doing percentages now? You can be 90% Bad but 10% Good and you are still ok? If you are a criminal or simply a jerk continually but occassionally you manage to do something selfless that does not make the individual alright.
Hmmm...looks like Jolt ate my response from earlier.

Anyway, no, I don't think it's an issue of percentages, just of differences in the crime. Someone who kills someone in a fit of jealous rage, but has otherwise led a violence-free and giving life is different than a person who routinely tortures animals, then graduates to kidnapping, brutalising and then murdering a person.

It's very hard for me to think of people as bad or evil, because I have some empathy for almost everyone. I even have empathy for people like Osama bin Laden. Of course, I in no way condone the actions of such people, rather I am repulsed by them, but I understand why someone would choose to bomb things in a limited way. Put another way, raised in the right environment, I think the vast majority of people would turn out to be what is considered by society to be "good." Virtually no one is truly bad at their core.

I have heard the arguement that people who do wrong things are not actually bad people. They will say something like: "he's not bad his heart is good!" Yeah, he robbed someone but deep inside he is kind. Right. Does anyone believe the idea of doing wrong things but being "good inside" actually means anything or is it just bullshit?

Robin Hood?

Personally, I think any idea of people being inherently 'good' or 'evil' inside is pure BS. Maimonides FTW!

Personally, I think any idea of people being inherently 'good' or 'evil' inside is pure BS. Maimonides FTW!

Seems simple to me, your actions are the best way to demonstrate someone's character. A good person cannot do evil things, it is a contradiction.

It'd be interesting to know what you guys think of Robin Hood, then!

He was a total outlaw and yet good. But breaking the law for a good cause is still breaking the law, right?

Robin Hood?
Dammit! Beat me to it ;)

Seems simple to me, your actions are the best way to demonstrate someone's character. A good person cannot do evil things, it is a contradiction.
But not impossible. Just as an evil person (okay, mostly bad) can do good...without even intending to perhaps. It's a contradiction. But possible.

Were I to accept a standard of good and evil, it'd be difficult to call a person "good" or "bad", I think. Actions could be good and bad, I suppose, but surely a person, who could choose either to do good or to do bad, would be neither?

But not impossible. Just as an evil person (okay, mostly bad) can do good...without even intending to perhaps. It's a contradiction. But possible.

Well bad people can fake doing good like prisoners do to try to get out of jail on parole or politicians do it for PR. I suppose even the most evil person can do good occasionally but it really comes down to their actions on a whole, their attitude.