NationStates Jolt Archive


Question about Islamic culture; How does killing your own children "regain honor"?

New Heathengrad
29-12-2005, 06:46
Sorry if this has already been posted, but didn't catch it when I checked.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/12/28/pakistan.honor.ap/index.html

Apparently, a man sliced the throats of his young daughters because one of them supposedly committed adultery, and by murdering them in cold blood it somehow regains the honor of his family. It's good that religion instills good, wholesome morals like this.
The Soviet Sith
29-12-2005, 06:47
I think the insanity of the man is at fault here, not his religion.
Neu Leonstein
29-12-2005, 06:48
Noting of course that the notion of blood being spilled to regain family honour is hardly an Islamic invention...

The idea is that the family distances itself in the harshest possible way from the actions of that particular member.

Why he would have killed the other daughters as well though is beyond me. Not that I understand the sort of thinking it takes to do these things anyways.
Utracia
29-12-2005, 06:53
I seriously doubt that the Quran advocates honor killings. Sounds like a regional practice that has nothing to do with Islam.
Good Lifes
29-12-2005, 06:53
Ever read any Old Testament? Seems in the tradition of the area.

Yea, if they were good Christians they would send the children of the poor to get killed.
Kryozerkia
29-12-2005, 06:56
And because I'm bored...

Wiki: Honour Killings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honour_killing).

Now we can be informed and flame each other! :p
Keruvalia
29-12-2005, 07:02
Question about Islamic culture; How does killing your own children "regain honor"?

It doesn't. Murder is Murder.


NEXT!
Gauthier
29-12-2005, 07:13
Honor Killing is a tribal/cultural bullshit. It has nothing to do with Islam at all.
Aryavartha
29-12-2005, 07:16
There is no such thing as islamic culture.
Neu Leonstein
29-12-2005, 07:18
Very well.
It seems like NS has unanimously declared the premise of this thread to be stupid.

Case closed, I'd say.
Ogalalla
29-12-2005, 07:18
I think our Burean neighbors might do that every once in a while.
Aryavartha
29-12-2005, 07:20
Honor Killing is a tribal/cultural bullshit. It has nothing to do with Islam at all.

Honor killings are not limited to tribal areas.

This incidence took place in Gago Mandi which is interior Punjab (west Punjab....East Punjab is in India), which is not a tribal place.

Blame misogyny (religion inspired one can argue).
Kreitzmoorland
29-12-2005, 07:26
Why are you all falling all over yourselves trying to (unconvinceingly) show that honor killings have nothing to do with Islam? Clearly they take place in mostly islamic nations. That's not a fluke.

You can say that its the result of culture, not religion, or mysogany which doesn't depend on religion, or go Keruvalia-esque and claim that anyone who does/believes this or that bad thing isn't *actually* muslim, but that's frankly lame. Clearly, the environment that prpduces these murders is a muslim one that encourages and condones extreme disrespect of women as autonomous humans.
The Squeaky Rat
29-12-2005, 07:27
How does killing your own children "regain honor"?

Easy - you must value the concept/institution of your "family", "line" or "name" higher than the actual individuals involved. Groupmembers that show disrespect to the other groupmembers and violate the rules must then be removed.

I am uncertain if this system as a survival mechanism is better or worse than the western worship of the individual. Anyone have some factual data ?


You can say that its the result of culture, not religion, or mysogany which doesn't depend on religion, or go Keruvalia-esque and claim that anyone who does/believes this or that bad thing isn't *actually* muslim, but that's frankly lame. Clearly, the environment that prpduces these murders is a muslim one that encourages and condones extreme disrespect of women as autonomous humans.

Unless the practice pre-dates Islam of course.
Neu Leonstein
29-12-2005, 07:34
Why are you all falling all over yourselves trying to (unconvinceingly) show that honor killings have nothing to do with Islam? Clearly they take place in mostly islamic nations. That's not a fluke.
But they also take place in other nations. Chinese people kill female babies because they prefer sons, as do some Indians.
Misogyny is not a religious thing, it's a cultural thing.

You can say that its the result of culture, not religion, or mysogany which doesn't depend on religion, or go Keruvalia-esque and claim that anyone who does/believes this or that bad thing isn't *actually* muslim, but that's frankly lame.
Yeah, the right answer is often not quite as exciting...:rolleyes:

Clearly, the environment that prpduces these murders is a muslim one that encourages and condones extreme disrespect of women as autonomous humans.
I'd bet twenty bucks that
a) that type of attitude was around before Islam
b) that type of attitude was around in every place of the world at some point in time

So can we finally close this thread now?
Aryavartha
29-12-2005, 07:35
I can understand the perplexity of westerners when it comes to honor. (No offense meant).

To really understand the setting behind this you would have to examine a word called "ghairat" roughly meaning honor, but it is much more than that.

To be called a "Beghairat" (one without ghairat) is possibly the biggest insult you can throw upon a man.

It is a highly patriarchial and misogynistic society. Like I said, one can argue about its inspiration from islam. I have seen people cite Qur'anic verses which say that a woman's word is only half as worth as that of a man's. And the whole "woman need to be protected" thing makes women to be treated as property.

Add to this mix, very poor education and exposure and zero prostects for economic development and misogynistic shariat laws and an apathetic law enforcement....you get honor killings like cited in the OP. The conditions in which women in such areas live is very sad.
Rubina
29-12-2005, 07:56
Why are you all falling all over yourselves trying to (unconvinceingly) show that honor killings have nothing to do with Islam?Because it's true, honor killings are not unique to Islam.

Even today, in the home state of our esteemed leader, a man who murders his two-timing wife/girlfriend under the correct circumstances, is treated lightly by the law and often looked up to by other men in the community for restoring his honor. And the last time I looked, Texas wasn't predominantly Muslim.

Women are beaten and shot and strangled in the U.S. by male relatives for looking, acting, thinking "wrong". Is Christianity, per se, the primary factor? Honor killings are an extreme on the spectrum of male-on-female violence that is triggered by a need for control and dominance. Any number of religious figures over the course of history have turned a blind eye to it.
Kreitzmoorland
29-12-2005, 08:04
But they also take place in other nations. Chinese people kill female babies because they prefer sons, as do some Indians.
Misogyny is not a religious thing, it's a cultural thing.I'm not sayig its resticted to them, and neither did they invent it. I'm saying the concentration of honor killings are happening in certain places NOW.
Yeah, the right answer is often not quite as exciting...:rolleyes: not really sure what you mean
I'd bet twenty bucks that
a) that type of attitude was around before Islam
b) that type of attitude was around in every place of the world at some point in time

So can we finally close this thread now?No. a) and b) are probably accurate, but that doesn't mean that Islam doesn't encourage/comdone this type of thing in a manner that other religions/cultures/societies don't. Again, somehtihng doesn't have to be unique to some spacetime co-ordinate to have an unusual and remarklable agregation there.
Neu Leonstein
29-12-2005, 08:10
No. a) and b) are probably accurate, but that doesn't mean that Islam doesn't encourage/comdone this type of thing in a manner that other religions/cultures/societies don't.
Okay.

Let's assume that this is correct. What now? What are you hoping to achieve?

I can tell you what my goal is: I want to prevent that people in this country, or in the US, or in Europe start judging people by the actions of men like this Pakistani, simply because they share a religion.
Kreitzmoorland
29-12-2005, 08:18
Okay.

Let's assume that this is correct. What now? What are you hoping to achieve?

I can tell you what my goal is: I want to prevent that people in this country, or in the US, or in Europe start judging people by the actions of men like this Pakistani, simply because they share a religion.Well, that's admirable, but with all this lack of judgement, there are women who live in opresion under our noses. And under the iron fists of their fully Usian, Canadian, or British husbands, brothers, fathers.

I won't judge people i just see, of course. But denying obvious sociological trends is useless.
Freeunitedstates
29-12-2005, 08:20
Samurai culture also has the view of death to regain honor.
Ahem...

A certain son of Mori Monbei got into a fight and returned home wounded. Asked by Monbei, "What did you do to your opponent?" his son replied, "I cut him down."
"When his father asked, "Did you deliver the coup de grace?" his son replied, "Indeed I did."
Then Monbei said, "You have certainly done well, and there is nothing to regret. Now, even if you fled you would have to commit seppuku anyway. when your mood improves, commit seppuku, and rather than die by another's hand, you can die by your father's." And soon after he performed kaishaku for his son.
-Hagakure, Yamamoto Tsunetomo

Note: These aren't my beliefs, I'm just sharing another cultures'.
definitions:
seppuku: ritual suicide that evolved over the years. mainly consisted of cutting a single cut upward and then across the stomach, disemboweling onself.
kaishaku: the attendant for a person committing seppuku who delivered the final blow by cutting of the condemned man's head.
Neu Leonstein
29-12-2005, 08:26
But denying obvious sociological trends is useless.
Of course, but since we can't change them, there is no point in crying foul - especially considering the aforementioned consequences.

The only people who can change attitudes like these are the people themselves, as sad as it is.
Kreitzmoorland
29-12-2005, 08:36
Of course, but since we can't change them, there is no point in crying foul - especially considering the aforementioned consequences.

The only people who can change attitudes like these are the people themselves, as sad as it is.We can help change them - by supporting muslim women's groups, and listening to their voices, which are growng stronger daily. Who stopped the implementation of Sharia law in Ontario? largely women's groups and their supporters. We (as canadians, anyway) pride ourselves as being accepting of other cultural practices as westerners, but when, in our efforts to accept and embrace, we turn a blind eye to "culturally" condoned practices that are unnaceptable, we undermine our own values as a society. That same attitude is behind this phenomenon whereby people are terrified to critisize a religion or a culture for something blatantly deplorable. Patriarchal culture causes the opression of women. period. and this is wrong.

Washing your hands of it by saying that you cannot do anything, and bering the banner of cultural acceptance instead is just a little too easy.
Randomlittleisland
29-12-2005, 13:21
Samurai culture also has the view of death to regain honor.
Ahem...

A certain son of Mori Monbei got into a fight and returned home wounded. Asked by Monbei, "What did you do to your opponent?" his son replied, "I cut him down."
"When his father asked, "Did you deliver the coup de grace?" his son replied, "Indeed I did."
Then Monbei said, "You have certainly done well, and there is nothing to regret. Now, even if you fled you would have to commit seppuku anyway. when your mood improves, commit seppuku, and rather than die by another's hand, you can die by your father's." And soon after he performed kaishaku for his son.
-Hagakure, Yamamoto Tsunetomo

Note: These aren't my beliefs, I'm just sharing another cultures'.
definitions:
seppuku: ritual suicide that evolved over the years. mainly consisted of cutting a single cut upward and then across the stomach, disemboweling onself.
kaishaku: the attendant for a person committing seppuku who delivered the final blow by cutting of the condemned man's head.

I'm confused, what did the son do that was dishonourable?:confused:
Zero Six Three
29-12-2005, 13:28
I'm confused, what did the son do that was dishonourable?:confused:
I thik it was because he was wounded.. I don't know...
OceanDrive3
29-12-2005, 14:34
I won't judge people i just see, of course. But denying obvious sociological trends is useless.Would you say "Palestinean Genocide" is an obvious sociological Jewish trend? I would not BTW
Hobovillia
29-12-2005, 15:31
I thik it was because he was wounded.. I don't know...
Samurais who have been mortally wounded or disgraced in battle commited seppuku so I am guessed his wounds were fairly bad (Source: Wikipedia)
Fraternity and Liberty
29-12-2005, 15:34
Would you say "Palestinean Genocide" is an obvious sociological Jewish trend? I would not BTW

No, because your average Jew doesn't go out and kill Palestineans for fun. :/
Kaledan
29-12-2005, 15:58
Why are you all falling all over yourselves trying to (unconvinceingly) show that honor killings have nothing to do with Islam? Clearly they take place in mostly islamic nations. That's not a fluke.

You can say that its the result of culture, not religion, or mysogany which doesn't depend on religion, or go Keruvalia-esque and claim that anyone who does/believes this or that bad thing isn't *actually* muslim, but that's frankly lame. Clearly, the environment that prpduces these murders is a muslim one that encourages and condones extreme disrespect of women as autonomous humans.

So where in the Qur'an does it advocate murder in response to adultery? I have read where it says that both the adulterer and the adulteress shall receive one hundred lashes for such an offense, but nothing that condones murder. If you live your life by the Qur'an, you cannot ignore this. I have to wonder how familiar with thier religion those are who committ such acts.
Have you ever read Victorian and Edwardian literature? A very common theme dealt with women committing suicide as the only honorable way to deal with thier adultery. How much of this influence comes from Christianity? Did Jesus (pbuh) preach that women must kill themselves to restore honor to thier families? Was it the prime motivation of the times?
Islam views adultery and immodesty as a grave sin. Some Muslims may believe that it is okay to kill if these have been trangressed upon, but that does not mean that the faith itself condones or accepts it.
Islam does not call for disrespect of women, quite the contrary, according to the Qur'an and the hadithah. Unfortunately, those Muslims who are the most visible to Western eyes generally portray this image (i.e. Saudi Arabia).
If a Christian minister steals from his church and cheats on his wife, or molests little boys, can you take his guilt and pin it on the entire religion? Of course not. So how can we make the argument that Islam fosters honor killings, when nothing is said about them in the revelation from God? Pretending to know the mind of God is the greatest transgression of them all.
Drunk commies deleted
29-12-2005, 16:05
Why are you all falling all over yourselves trying to (unconvinceingly) show that honor killings have nothing to do with Islam? Clearly they take place in mostly islamic nations. That's not a fluke.

You can say that its the result of culture, not religion, or mysogany which doesn't depend on religion, or go Keruvalia-esque and claim that anyone who does/believes this or that bad thing isn't *actually* muslim, but that's frankly lame. Clearly, the environment that prpduces these murders is a muslim one that encourages and condones extreme disrespect of women as autonomous humans.
Maybe that's because those Islamic nations are among the most backward culturally. Look at the failure of so many middle eastern nations to progress culturally. Look at how they fear and punish foreign ideas and religions. They've successfully isolated themselves and perpetuated a 17th century social order while adopting the tools of the modern age (cars, modern buildings, guns, cell phones).

Islam doesn't say "kill your daughter" that idea came from earlier cultural norms, but the self imposed cultural isolation of some Muslim regions in the world allows it to continue.
Drunk commies deleted
29-12-2005, 16:09
Would you say "Palestinean Genocide" is an obvious sociological Jewish trend? I would not BTW
Nice. Bring baseless accusations against Israel into a thread that has nothing to do with Israel. This genocide accusation is becoming the new blood libel. There is no factual basis to it, but it keeps getting repeated by those who hate Israel.
Fraternity and Liberty
29-12-2005, 16:21
Nice. Bring baseless accusations against Israel into a thread that has nothing to do with Israel. This genocide accusation is becoming the new blood libel. There is no factual basis to it, but it keeps getting repeated by those who hate Israel.

I think the death rates of Palestinians:Isrealis is somewhere along 3:1 which means there is a factual basis for a Repression/Oppression of the Palestinians at least. Nothing near a "genocide" though.

But er...on the topic itself, Islamic culture and Sharia law does promote abusing/killing your family; however I think it is only a minor factor. Lunacy and fanatacism are to blame. Sharia law does encourage those two factors but isnot the root cause of those actions. It is just irrational people acting up in a society that condones irrational actions.
Drunk commies deleted
29-12-2005, 16:24
I think the death rates of Palestinians:Isrealis is somewhere along 3:1 which means there is a factual basis for a Repression/Oppression of the Palestinians at least. Nothing near a "genocide" though.

But er...on the topic itself, Islamic culture and Sharia law does promote abusing/killing your family; however I think it is only a minor factor. Lunacy and fanatacism are to blame. Sharia law does encourage those two factors but isnot the root cause of those actions. It is just irrational people acting up in a society that condones irrational actions.
What's going on between the Israelis and Palestinians is a war. It's a slow motion war, but it's a war nonetheless. The Israelis may be inflicting casualties against the enemy at a 3 to 1 rate, but that's actually not a very impressive rate for a modern army against a guerilla force. It reflects the fact that the Israelis are trying to prevent civilian casualties.
Fraternity and Liberty
29-12-2005, 16:44
What's going on between the Israelis and Palestinians is a war. It's a slow motion war, but it's a war nonetheless. The Israelis may be inflicting casualties against the enemy at a 3 to 1 rate, but that's actually not a very impressive rate for a modern army against a guerilla force. It reflects the fact that the Israelis are trying to prevent civilian casualties.

Er...that's civilian casualities by the way. 3:1 or 2:1 civilian casualities. And, the Isreali army is really not looking out for Palesitinian civilians.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/06/22/isrlpa11148.htm
Aryavartha
29-12-2005, 19:45
So where in the Qur'an does it advocate murder in response to adultery? I have read where it says that both the adulterer and the adulteress shall receive one hundred lashes for such an offense, but nothing that condones murder.

AFAIK, Qur'anic injunctions are vague and open to interpretation. For ex, Qur'an says punish those who bring mischief in the lands. WTH can you make out of it? How do you quantify "mischief in the lands" and give appropriate punishment. You cannot design a legal code based on Qur'an alone.

That is why the Shariat and fatwa system were developed using hadiths (narrations of how Mohammed conducted himself) to fill in the gaps and use them as precedence. Sharit codes vary with schools. But most of them do treat women like sh1t. For ex, a woman witness's word is only half that of a male witness's word. Apparently something like this happened in 7th century and it became a hadith and now it is codified.

All sunnis are bound to obey shariat since they are bound to obey the traditions (traditions = sunnah..hence the name of the sect sunni). Reason why some parts are stuck in 7th century.
Portu Cale MK3
29-12-2005, 19:56
Question about Christian Culture: How does castrating your children "maintains their purity"?

Female castration is made in more than one country (incidentally, African country) that as a vast Christian majority (namely Cabo Verde, Angola, Moçambique).

Would you say that this is something that defines the Christian religion, or African culture?
Fraternity and Liberty
29-12-2005, 20:11
Question about Christian Culture: How does castrating your children "maintains their purity"?

Female castration is made in more than one country (incidentally, African country) that as a vast Christian majority (namely Cabo Verde, Angola, Moçambique).

Would you say that this is something that defines the Christian religion, or African culture?

That's kind of a bad analogy; Islam is strongly interrelated with certain negative aspects of Islamic culture (Ex: Repression of women) while Christianity has nothing really to do with African cultural traditions such as female castration.

>.> *cough*
Drunk commies deleted
29-12-2005, 20:13
That's kind of a bad analogy; Islam is strongly interrelated with certain negative aspects of Islamic culture (Ex: Repression of women) while Christianity has nothing really to do with African cultural traditions such as female castration.

Castration isin't even a Christian tradition...more of a Jewish thing. And besides, I don't see anything wrong or negative with castration; many secular hospitals preform it to preven infections. I do see something wrong with stoning sinners though.
Castration isn't anyone's tradition. I think the word you're looking for is circumcision.
Portu Cale MK3
29-12-2005, 20:16
That's kind of a bad analogy; Islam is strongly interrelated with certain negative aspects of Islamic culture (Ex: Repression of women) while Christianity has nothing really to do with African cultural traditions such as female castration.

Castration isin't even a Christian tradition...more of a Jewish thing. And besides, I don't see anything wrong or negative with castration; many secular hospitals preform it to preven infections. I do see something wrong with stoning sinners though.

Repression of women? Were? I know muslim women, and I garantee you my friend, they ain't repressed! :D

When it was written, if you research a bit, you will actually discover that the koran was actually quite "feminist", giving religious protection to women when they had none.

PS: You don't see anything wrong with having your penis (or if you are a woman, your clitoris) choped off? Woa, but hey, that's you.
Fraternity and Liberty
29-12-2005, 20:20
Castration isn't anyone's tradition. I think the word you're looking for is circumcision.

Er...yeah. Whoops. Mixed them up >.<

And...well, basically, castration is not a Christian tradition. Period. Scratch what I said about circumcision up there. :/

As for repression of women, are those Muslim friends of yours living in the United States? That would probably explain why they aren't repressed.

Unfourtunatly for the "feminiest" Koran (which I know little about), its the interpretation of it that matters in the real world. That interpretation equals Sharia law. Look it up. Women get stoned for adultry...not exactly the most femenist of ideas.
Santa Barbara
29-12-2005, 20:21
Basically, if I kill my daughters and say I did it for honor, you say, "You sick twisted murderer!!"

But if I'm a Muslim and I do it, you say, "What a sick, twisted, murderous religion!"
Fraternity and Liberty
29-12-2005, 20:26
Basically, if I kill my daughters and say I did it for honor, you say, "You sick twisted murderer!!"

But if I'm a Muslim and I do it, you say, "What a sick, twisted, murderous religion!"

Yeah, because the atmosphere and the culture in the United States would not be to blame for you murdering your daugthers. Your sick mind would be the thing to blame :P.

But, if you were Muslim, Islamic culture encourages the opression and the discrimination of women and could be partially attributed to the crime. Maybe you were sick in the head, but getting told that women should be stoned for adultry doesn't help at all.
Portu Cale MK3
29-12-2005, 20:31
As for repression of women, are those Muslim friends of yours living in the United States? That would probably explain why they aren't repressed.

Nah, they ain't american, they live in the land of the free.


Unfourtunatly for the "feminiest" Koran (which I know little about), its the interpretation of it that matters in the real world. That interpretation equals Sharia law. Look it up. Women get stoned for adultry...not exactly the most femenist of ideas.

Adultery is a mortal sin according to the bible. That is why the Inquisition must have had fun burning women accused of adultery.

Your answer is: "but they don't get persecuted now!" Which will be true, because punishing people in barbaric ways isn't a reflection of any barbaric religion, but a reflection of barbaric people.
Santa Barbara
29-12-2005, 20:33
Yeah, because the atmosphere and the culture in the United States would not be to blame for you murdering your daugthers. Your sick mind would be the thing to blame :P.

But, if you were Muslim, Islamic culture encourages the opression and the discrimination of women and could be partially attributed to the crime. Maybe you were sick in the head, but getting told that women should be stoned for adultry doesn't help at all.

Oh come on, how many people - like I dunno, feminists - would make the case that Western culture encourages the oppression and discrimination of women too? Yet Western Culture doesn't get put on trial when a crime against a woman is committed. Even as an accomplice. Rightly so. A culture, a religion, has no self to blame, no share of responsibility for the actions of an individual.
OceanDrive3
29-12-2005, 21:06
No, because your average Jew doesn't go out and kill Palestinians for fun. :/Exactamente

your average Muslim/arab doesn't go out and kill Jews for fun either..

and the average Muslim/arab does not kill their own family..
Portu Cale MK3
29-12-2005, 21:15
E
As for repression of women, are those Muslim friends of yours living in the United States? That would probably explain why they aren't repressed.



This let me thinking: Do you think a majority of American-muslims would sanction stoning women? Because if you say they wouldn't, than you are recognizing that it isnt a religious trait, but a cultural one.
The Squeaky Rat
29-12-2005, 21:27
I notice most people are debating the "honour killings are a part of islam" part of the query instead of "are honour killings morally justifiable". Why is that ?

To start off small, lets take a less terminal case.

Your brother has just raped a 12 year old girl. He comes to you, asking for help hiding from the police. Do you:

A. Hide him (at least for a while) - family comes first
B. Send him away, but do not alert the police either - he may be a scumbag, but he is still your brother.
C. Immediately turn him over to the police - he is a criminal and that he is your brother doesn't matter.
D. Beat him up before you hand him over to the police - because thanks to his actions people will now refer to you as "the brother/sister of that rapist" while your dear old mother is too ashamed to shop for groceries - all thanks to him.
E. Something else.
Madnestan
29-12-2005, 22:05
Yeah, because the atmosphere and the culture in the United States would not be to blame for you murdering your daugthers. Your sick mind would be the thing to blame :P.

But, if you were Muslim, Islamic culture encourages the opression and the discrimination of women and could be partially attributed to the crime. Maybe you were sick in the head, but getting told that women should be stoned for adultry doesn't help at all.

Now please cut the bullshit about Western and Islamic culture. Both terms are so made up, simplified and inaccurate that using them makes you look really, really... uh. American.

Anyways.

Islam isn't one country and one culture, that does this and that. Just like West is not that. We have both Belarussia, Utah and Norway beeing totally, totally different compared to each other just like Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Syria are.

It is the Belarussian atmosphere, society and culture that bring out high suicide rates and corruption, not Western or Christian culture, and neither are these the reason for Norway's social system's succes or the fact that they eat a lot of fish, nor is the Many Wifes, One Man-system that the mormons of Utah have.

Qatar isn't civilized and rather liberal because of their religion, neither Iran or SA fundamentalist and opressive for that alone.



It's about welfare/poorness and education/superstition. These together with the local cultural factors determine things like treatment of the women and the idea of family's honour.

You will not come and say that the reason for 2% of christian americans beeing in jail is in their religion, so you shouldn't come stating that it is Islam that makes fathers kill their daughters.
Fraternity and Liberty
29-12-2005, 22:27
Now please cut the bullshit about Western and Islamic culture. Both terms are so made up, simplified and inaccurate that using them makes you look really, really... uh. American.

Anyways.

Islam isn't one country and one culture, that does this and that. Just like West is not that. We have both Belarussia, Utah and Norway beeing totally, totally different compared to each other just like Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Syria are.

It is the Belarussian atmosphere, society and culture that bring out high suicide rates and corruption, not Western or Christian culture, and neither are these the reason for Norway's social system's succes or the fact that they eat a lot of fish, nor is the Many Wifes, One Man-system that the mormons of Utah have.

Qatar isn't civilized and rather liberal because of their religion, neither Iran or SA fundamentalist and opressive for that alone.



It's about welfare/poorness and education/superstition. These together with the local cultural factors determine things like treatment of the women and the idea of family's honour.

You will not come and say that the reason for 2% of christian americans beeing in jail is in their religion, so you shouldn't come stating that it is Islam that makes fathers kill their daughters.

Yes, Islamic culture is an oversimplification. Since this is an Internet debate though and I don't have enough time to reseach local varients of Islam and regional conditions and it was the original term being used to start this whole thing, I left it as such. If you like, I can relabel it extremist Islamic culture or something like that but my goal is to get points across not words :/.

However, I am still stand behind my point that Islam encourages fathers to kill daughters by creating an atmosphere where women are viewed as less then human. I've already stated before, it is not the root cause nor the main reason why but merely a factor, albiet a disturbing one. Poverty is also another factor. So is education. Yes, certain Islamic countries are different from each other. You cannot deny however that Sharia law and parts of Islamic law have very negative effects on Islamic states in regard to women in particular. You also cannot deny the fact that while the difference between Iran and say Kuwait are large, the difference between Iran and Norway is even bigger.

You brought up two bad examples though. Religion is a major influence in Iran ;its a goddamn theocracy for crying out loud. Sharia law and Islam (or at least Iran's interpretation of the two) ARE to blame for Iran's opressiveness and fundementalism. This is slightly less true in Qatar and Saudi Arabia...but still binding.

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/08/320466.html

^Homosexual Qatari prince to be stoned based on Sharia law.

If anything, both states highlight the negative influence of thier interpretation of the Quran and "Islamic culture".

And, in reply to the other posts, I think extreme interpretations of Islam are a factor in the discrimination of women much like some think poverty is a factor in crime. No, if a father kills his daughter, Islam is not to blame directly. But, Islam (or rather the sick interpretation of Islam) has lead to an environment where a father would be more inclined to kill his daughters. Much like Nazi Germany (although an extreme example) if a nation was told a certain portion of the population was lower then human, what do you think will happen to the group in question? The Jews were killed; gays were denied marriage rights and killed (some still are killed in Islamic states).

Also, about the average Jew/Arab thing...no, the average Arab does not kill his own family. However, there is an environment that encourages this to happen and it does happen...rarely perhaps but a hell of alot more times then in the West.

This let me thinking: Do you think a majority of American-muslims would sanction stoning women? Because if you say they wouldn't, than you are recognizing that it isnt a religious trait, but a cultural one.

Ah, but it is based partly on religion as well as culture. Its like the literalists and contextualists; you'll get different opinions depending on each person's interpretation of things. I'm saying that an extreme interpretation of Islam and not all of Islam (sorry if I didn't clarify this before) leads to the repression of women.
Sinuhue
29-12-2005, 23:06
Because it's true, honor killings are not unique to Islam.

Even today, in the home state of our esteemed leader, a man who murders his two-timing wife/girlfriend under the correct circumstances, is treated lightly by the law and often looked up to by other men in the community for restoring his honor. And the last time I looked, Texas wasn't predominantly Muslim.

Women are beaten and shot and strangled in the U.S. by male relatives for looking, acting, thinking "wrong". Is Christianity, per se, the primary factor? Honor killings are an extreme on the spectrum of male-on-female violence that is triggered by a need for control and dominance. Any number of religious figures over the course of history have turned a blind eye to it.
I'm just wondering why no one who says that this is unique to Islam is bothering to reply to this quote.
Fraternity and Liberty
29-12-2005, 23:38
I'm just wondering why no one who says that this is unique to Islam is bothering to reply to this quote.

Its not unique to Islam. Extremist Islam is a factor in the repression of women...but it isin't the sole environment where discrimination against women is fostered.

Just to clarify if you think I think its unique to Islam...if its someone else, ignore what I said :/
Sinuhue
29-12-2005, 23:45
That's kind of a bad analogy; Islam is strongly interrelated with certain negative aspects of Islamic culture (Ex: Repression of women) while Christianity has nothing really to do with African cultural traditions such as female castration.

>.> *cough*
Isn't it rather odd that female genital mutilation (let's call a spade a spade) is often blamed on Islam as well? So it it isn't a Muslim, or a Christian practice...then what? And if honour killings...or spousal killings, whatever a society chooses to label them...are not just a Muslim, or Christian, or any other religious practice...then what? Can we then just deal with it as abuse?
Sinuhue
29-12-2005, 23:49
Oh come on, how many people - like I dunno, feminists - would make the case that Western culture encourages the oppression and discrimination of women too? Yet Western Culture doesn't get put on trial when a crime against a woman is committed. Even as an accomplice. Rightly so. A culture, a religion, has no self to blame, no share of responsibility for the actions of an individual.
In most part I agree with you, and I wouldn't be blaming a culture...but a society? A bit more, yes...IF that society failed to punish such abuses, or even consider such crimes to BE abuses. But that's a bit touchy...it's easy to say murder is bad...but harder to say whether keeping your daughters cloistered to avoid having them 'defiled' (or perhaps a Western equivalent...keeping them ignorant and in fear that kissing is going to get them knocked up).
Fraternity and Liberty
29-12-2005, 23:50
Isn't it rather odd that female genital mutilation (let's call a spade a spade) is often blamed on Islam as well? So it it isn't a Muslim, or a Christian practice...then what? And if honour killings...or spousal killings, whatever a society chooses to label them...are not just a Muslim, or Christian, or any other religious practice...then what? Can we then just deal with it as abuse?

I'm not too sure about female genital mutilation, but I've never heard of Christians advocating it nor Muslims (I may be wrong thouhg :/). But, some Muslims do advocate stoning women for adultry. This isin't an underground KKK thing but something out in the open, exposed to all.

Yes, it is abuse, but abuse that is caused by a number of factors. In this case, specifically, the impact of Sharia law and the effect it produces on Islamic society. That's all I'm trying to say.
[NS:::]Elgesh
29-12-2005, 23:58
I notice most people are debating the "honour killings are a part of islam" part of the query instead of "are honour killings morally justifiable". Why is that ?

To start off small, lets take a less terminal case.

Your brother has just raped a 12 year old girl. He comes to you, asking for help hiding from the police. Do you:

A. Hide him (at least for a while) - family comes first
B. Send him away, but do not alert the police either - he may be a scumbag, but he is still your brother.
C. Immediately turn him over to the police - he is a criminal and that he is your brother doesn't matter.
D. Beat him up before you hand him over to the police - because thanks to his actions people will now refer to you as "the brother/sister of that rapist" while your dear old mother is too ashamed to shop for groceries - all thanks to him.
E. Something else.

Well, I think we can take for granted the fact that honour killings are bad, morally unjustifiable - no one would argue with that! Debating whether or not they're part of islam or part of the culture of some countries in which islam is the prevalent local religion is a more interesting question, in my opinion :)

And to answer your question - which almost deserves its own thread! - C, I'd turn him in. He's me little brother, so I'd go in with him and hold his hand, wait in the station with him, but I'd send him in. I remember my mum saying she'd do basically the same thing in a similar hypothetical (murder rather than rape) when a story involving your option A came up on the news.
Sinuhue
30-12-2005, 00:00
I'm not too sure about female genital mutilation, but I've never heard of Christians advocating it nor Muslims (I may be wrong thouhg :/). But, some Muslims do advocate stoning women for adultry. This isin't an underground KKK thing but something out in the open, exposed to all.
Ah, well female genital mutilation is actually condoned by a wide range of people...and condemned by an even wider range. But bring it up, and people's minds usually stray to Muslims. It's practiced in 28 African countries, among some Muslim populations in parts of Southeast Asia, as well as being practiced in Omen, Yemen, the UAE and Egypt. In the West, sometimes happens among immigrant populations from those areas, or the girls are sent 'back home' to have it done. It's practiced by people with traditional tribal customs, Muslims, and Christians, and religious excuses are often given. I think the estimate is that about 2 million girls per year undergo FGM.

Anyway...it's not a central tenant to any religion, not really. It's more of a specific cultural practice that is justified culturally, or religiously. And considering that more FGM goes on that stonings, I’d say that it’s not a custom driven underground. People are just as open about that as the minority that support stonings are.*shudders* Not really the point, but it just makes me squirm to think of it.

Yes, it is abuse, but abuse that is caused by a number of factors. In this case, specifically, the impact of Sharia law and the effect it produces on Islamic society. That's all I'm trying to say.
Alright. So we need to be aware of cultural factors that exacerbate a certain type of abuse. But that isn't really an approach we take anymore in the West in terms of abuse happening here. Why is that, I wonder?
Fraternity and Liberty
30-12-2005, 00:12
Ah, well female genital mutilation is actually condoned by a wide range of people...and condemned by an even wider range. But bring it up, and people's minds usually stray to Muslims. It's practiced in 28 African countries, among some Muslim populations in parts of Southeast Asia, as well as being practiced in Omen, Yemen, the UAE and Egypt. In the West, sometimes happens among immigrant populations from those areas, or the girls are sent 'back home' to have it done. It's practiced by people with traditional tribal customs, Muslims, and Christians, and religious excuses are often given. I think the estimate is that about 2 million girls per year undergo FGM.

Anyway...it's not a central tenant to any religion, not really. It's more of a specific cultural practice that is justified culturally, or religiously. And considering that more FGM goes on that stonings, I’d say that it’s not a custom driven underground. People are just as open about that as the minority that support stonings are.*shudders* Not really the point, but it just makes me squirm to think of it.

Sounds horrible...never heard of it before either. Just...wow.

Alright. So we need to be aware of cultural factors that exacerbate a certain type of abuse. But that isn't really an approach we take anymore in the West in terms of abuse happening here. Why is that, I wonder?

The West is well...strange in dealing with abuse. I suppose its part of the "Smile everyone, its alright even when it isn't" mentality the West has embraced. Kind of like denial, a kind of subconcious thought that runs something like this; "In [Canada/USA/France etc.], nothing could go wrong...and if something does go wrong, it must be an isolated event.".
Neu Leonstein
30-12-2005, 00:24
Islam doesn't say "kill your daughter" that idea came from earlier cultural norms, but the self imposed cultural isolation of some Muslim regions in the world allows it to continue.
You astonish me sometimes...

Congratulations, you just clawed back a good number of points in my respect-scale. :)
Sinuhue
30-12-2005, 00:25
Sounds horrible...never heard of it before either. Just...wow.
Really? Well...you learn something new everyday:) If you ever really want to be horrified, read up on how it's done. It's far from a sterilised and surgical process for the most part. And the way that some older women support it....*shudder*Anyway.


The West is well...strange in dealing with abuse. I suppose its part of the "Smile everyone, its alright even when it isn't" mentality the West has embraced. Kind of like denial, a kind of subconcious thought that runs something like this; "In [Canada/USA/France etc.], nothing could go wrong...and if something does go wrong, it must be an isolated event.".
And yet we have gotten quite a bit better at dealing with it. At least there is the likelihood (which has increased greatly over the past two decades) that such abuse will be treated as a crime. But it still seems to be pretty prevelent, despite being treated as a criminal activity. The point being...you have it right when you say that Sharia law doesn't help...because once a thing becomes legal, it's much easier to do. But even if it weren't Sharia law making it legal...if it were just the kind of tacit agreement to such acts that we had in our own countries in the past...it would be less of a religious, or cultural issue, than a societal one. Of course religion and culture influence society and visa versa...

circles...never mind, I lay this one to rest. No one seems to be frothily proclaiming that Muslims are inherently evil and should be massacred, so I don't need to continue:p
Sinuhue
30-12-2005, 00:27
You astonish me sometimes...

Congratulations, you just clawed back a good number of points in my respect-scale. :)
It's easy to misinterpret DC because he says things that sound outrageous sometimes...but then when you get more detail on what he means, you realise he's not as radical and crazy as he seems:)
Neu Leonstein
30-12-2005, 00:30
Yeah, because the atmosphere and the culture in the United States would not be to blame for you murdering your daugthers. Your sick mind would be the thing to blame :P.

But, if you were Muslim, Islamic culture encourages the opression and the discrimination of women and could be partially attributed to the crime. Maybe you were sick in the head, but getting told that women should be stoned for adultry doesn't help at all.
So what then of Muslims who don't live in Muslim countries?

White Christians kill wives, their lovers, sometimes children all the time. They may not call it "honour killings", but that is what it is - the shock of being stood up like that makes them feel besmudged, and they go insane with rage.
But there we just attribute it to the individual.

However, if a Turkish man in Germany kills his daughter, sister or girlfriend for pretty much the same reasons (rage borne out of the feeling of being besmudged by her actions), then all of a sudden it is an issue of Islam.

Believe it or not, but Western culture has the same morons, and importantly, it too has the notion of the man being somehow responsible for the woman's actions.
Marrakech II
30-12-2005, 00:41
I think the insanity of the man is at fault here, not his religion.

Being a muslim I would agree with this. The guy is a nutcase. There are nutcases in all religions. This one happens to be a muslim.
Eruantalon
30-12-2005, 00:55
As I expected, too many people skirted around the issue, citing the minor technicality that honour killings are (reportedly) not in the Qu'aran.

Now, I think the most important issue is, how do we stop honour killings? The first world will be our first priority, but it is just a minority problem here. I think that to get rid of honour killings and female genital mutilation worldwide will require us export our liberal values to replace the patriarchal barbarism that is rife in the world.
Freeunitedstates
30-12-2005, 02:16
I'm confused, what did the son do that was dishonourable?:confused:

sorry it took a while to answer. here ya go!^_^

the Tokugawa shogunate outlawed dueling and fighting between samurai after they gained control of Japan after the battle of Sekigahara (1600) and Osaka Castle in1614-15. anyone who violated that law, regardless of who started it, was ordered to commit seppuku. even if both men were stopped, they would take their lives, and in instances, those who stopped them were exiled. other samurai ordinances were also established, including the heredity of the samurai. before the Tokugawas, anyone could become a samurai. Tokugawa Ieyasu himself was a footman for Oda Nobunaga, and took control after Nobunaga's death. sensing that something similar may happen to him, he made it law that only the sons of samurai could become samurai.

isn't history fun?^_^
Kreitzmoorland
30-12-2005, 02:51
BTW, sorry it took so long - my internet was down.

So where in the Qur'an does it advocate murder in response to adultery? I have read where it says that both the adulterer and the adulteress shall receive one hundred lashes for such an offense, but nothing that condones murder.
<snippage> So how can we make the argument that Islam fosters honor killings, when nothing is said about them in the revelation from God? Pretending to know the mind of God is the greatest transgression of them all.
I'm not claiming that Islam is inherently conducive to murder, nor will you ever hear me say that. Plenty of cultures and religions throughout history have been equally as hateful.
I'm saying that presently, Islamic culture in certain regions is such that honor killing are tragically common. Most of which go unreported, unprosecuted, and unpunished by authorities. When we, as westerners, shy away from assigning responsibility to Islamic culture and traditions for thier backward and tragic results, we are undermining our own values as a society.
I can make the claim that Islam fosters honor killing the same way I can make the argument that Chrisianity fosters the bombing of abortion clinics. Both are totally, and clearly, justifiable. And that doesn't imply that I'm generalizingthat behaviour to ALL muslims or ALL christians. I am not, and one does not imply the other.

My perspective comes from my priority, which is protecting women, not "culturally accepting" the men that opress them in the name of some multicultural pipe dream.
Would you say "Palestinean Genocide" is an obvious sociological Jewish trend? I would not BTW
There you go again. Don't turn this into an Israel/Palestine flamefest, Ocean. Stick to the stuff you're good at, like the humerous pictorial threads, and leave the thinking to the rest of us.

Now, I think the most important issue is, how do we stop honour killings? The first world will be our first priority, but it is just a minority problem here...thank you. As always, people prefer to fight about blame and not adress the real issues. Like I was saying before, there are womens groups that are fighting this in their own communities. It is our job to listen to them and support them in any way possible.
Kaledan
30-12-2005, 06:08
AFAIK, Qur'anic injunctions are vague and open to interpretation. For ex, Qur'an says punish those who bring mischief in the lands. WTH can you make out of it? How do you quantify "mischief in the lands" and give appropriate punishment. You cannot design a legal code based on Qur'an alone.

That is why the Shariat and fatwa system were developed using hadiths (narrations of how Mohammed conducted himself) to fill in the gaps and use them as precedence. Sharit codes vary with schools. But most of them do treat women like sh1t. For ex, a woman witness's word is only half that of a male witness's word. Apparently something like this happened in 7th century and it became a hadith and now it is codified.

All sunnis are bound to obey shariat since they are bound to obey the traditions (traditions = sunnah..hence the name of the sect sunni). Reason why some parts are stuck in 7th century.

You are right. It is vague to say that "To the man who commits adultery, give one hundred lashes. And to the woman who commits adultery, give one hundred lashes." (24-2)
Sure, you can grab a line and say that it is vague. It happens in any text that you would ever read. That does not serve to disqualify what is written specifically in other places, though.
Yes, the shariah (straight path to the watering-place, since we are so fond of placing parenthesis in here) is different in different places due to different peoples interpreting the Sunnah and haditha differently. So, when a dispute emerges between those, it is important to look at the most reliable source offered, which is the Qur'an.
What I am getting at here, and was getting at before, is that there is not a Qur'anic example to treat women the way that they are in the most visible (to Westerners) places. How often do we look at Indonesia (which has more Muslims than any other country) for thier example on how women are treated?
Kaledan
30-12-2005, 06:26
BTW, sorry it took so long - my internet was down.

I'm not claiming that Islam is inherently conducive to murder, nor will you ever hear me say that. Plenty of cultures and religions throughout history have been equally as hateful.
I'm saying that presently, Islamic culture in certain regions is such that honor killing are tragically common. Most of which go unreported, unprosecuted, and unpunished by authorities. When we, as westerners, shy away from assigning responsibility to Islamic culture and traditions for thier backward and tragic results, we are undermining our own values as a society.
I can make the claim that Islam fosters honor killing the same way I can make the argument that Chrisianity fosters the bombing of abortion clinics. Both are totally, and clearly, justifiable. And that doesn't imply that I'm generalizingthat behaviour to ALL muslims or ALL christians. I am not, and one does not imply the other.

My perspective comes from my priority, which is protecting women, not "culturally accepting" the men that opress them in the name of some multicultural pipe dream.

As always, people prefer to fight about blame and not adress the real issues. Like I was saying before, there are womens groups that are fighting this in their own communities. It is our job to listen to them and support them in any way possible.

I like how you stated your argument here.
You are correct that honor-killings occur often in areas associated with Islam. It is easy to also understand this statement as 'honor-killings exist because of Islam,' which I did in error, and for that I apologize.
I am not trying to, and I would argue that no one else here, is trying to culturally accept what is happening, but rather making an attempt to understand where the source of such brutality lays. Understanding the root of a problem often leads you to the best solution. It is too easy to look at something that we see as wrong and immediately attribute it to a 'backwards people.'
Here in Basrah, we have had several female day workers killed right outside of our gates for thier perceived 'misconduct,' which was more likely than not thier 'failing' to respond to degradation by male dayworkers, i.e. the guy catcalls her, she keeps walking without looking at him, she winds up dead. Was there any religious motivation for such a crime? I sincerely doubt it. The murderer simply knew he could get away with his slaughter, and 'avenged his scorned pride' by killing a helpless human being.
Amisk
30-12-2005, 06:52
Noone should be talking about honor because no one has it anymore. Noone has any respect for human life, animal life or Mother Earth. And you only think something is barbaric because you don't agree with it. So go ahead and wipe it out. Cultural genocide is a human pastime.
Keruvalia
30-12-2005, 07:07
From the Prophet's last sermon:
"Treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers."

From Qur'an:
Spiritual Equality of Women and Men
Allah has got ready forgiveness and tremendous rewards for the Muslim men and women; the believing men and women; the devout men and women; the truthful men and women; the patiently suffering men and women; the humble men and women; the almsgiving men and women; the fasting men and women, the men and women who guard their chastity; and the men and women who are exceedingly mindful of Allah. (Al-Ahzab 33:35)

Attitudes towards women
O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good. (An-Nisa 4:19)

Collaboration and Consultation
The believing men and women, are associates and helpers of each other. They (collaborate) to promote all that is beneficial and discourage all that is evil; to establish prayers and give alms, and to obey Allah and his Messenger. Those are the people whom Allah would grant mercy. Indeed Allah is Mighty and Wise. (Al-Taubah 9:71)

Examples of Consensual Decision Making
If both spouses decide, by mutual consent and consultation, on weaning [their baby], there is no blame on either. If you want to have your babies breastfed by a foster mother you are not doing anything blame-worthy provided you pay to the fostermother what you had agreed to offer, in accordance with the established manner. Fear Allah and know that Allah is aware it what you are doing". (Al-Baqarah, 2:233)

From Hadith:

The Right of Women not to be Forced
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: Barira's husband was a slave called Mughith, as if I am seeing him now, going behind Barira and weeping with his tears flowing down his beard. The Prophet said to 'Abbas, "O 'Abbas ! are you not astonished at the love of Mughith for Barira and the hatred of Barira for Mughith?" The Prophet then said to Barira, "Why don't you return to him?" She said, "O Allah's Apostle! Do you order me to do so?" He said, "No, I only intercede for him." She said, "I am not in need of him." (Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 206)

The Characteristics of a Believing Man
Narrated AbuHurayrah: Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said: a believing man should not hate a believing woman; if he dislikes one of her characteristics, he will be pleased with another. (Muslim Book 8, Number 3469)

The Education of Women
Narrated Abu Said: A woman came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Men (only) benefit by your teachings, so please devote to us from (some of) your time, a day on which we may come to you so that you may teach us of what Allah has taught you." Allah's Apostle said, "Gather on such-and-such a day at such-and-such a place." They gathered and Allah's Apostle came to them and taught them of what Allah had taught him. (Bukhari Volume 9, Book 92, Number 413)

On the Treatment of Women
Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: I went to the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) and asked him: "What do you say (command) about our wives?" He replied: "Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them." (Sunan Abu Dawud: Book 11, Number 2139) "The best of you is one who is best towards his family and I am best towards the family". (At-Tirmithy). "None but a noble man treats women in an honourable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully". (At-Tirmithy).

A Husband must keep the Privacy of his Wife
Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri: Allah's Messenger (peace_be_upon_him) said: The most wicked among the people in the eye of Allah on the Day of Judgement is the man who goes to his wife and she comes to him, and then he divulges her secret. (Muslim Book 8, Number 3369)

Now, someone please explain to me how in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary can any reasonably intelligent person not see that Islam does not denigrate women.

I'll say that again: IN ISLAM, WOMEN ARE EQUAL!

Period.

So cut it out with the "Islamic Culture" crap. The man who did this didn't do it because Qur'an or Allah told him to do it, he did it because he was a nutjob who probably should have been aborted in utero.
Kreitzmoorland
30-12-2005, 08:16
From the Prophet's last sermon:
"Treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers."

<snippage>

I'll say that again: IN ISLAM, WOMEN ARE EQUAL!

Period.

So cut it out with the "Islamic Culture" crap. The man who did this didn't do it because Qur'an or Allah told him to do it, he did it because he was a nutjob who probably should have been aborted in utero.You say that women are equal in Islam - But simply from those being adressed in the abouve snipped passages it is clear that this is not so. The passages, one of which I quoted as an example, are all adressed to men. Some male author is telling some other male reader how to treat his women. No matter how admirable the instructions are, women are not the adresees, but rather the subjects of a seperate and lofty theoretical conversation. This is certainly not unique to Islam - Jewish law is entirely, almost without exception dominated by men who make laws for other men. Patriarchal society does that. Partiarchal society leads to the supression of women's expression and freedom. And that is wrong. Some places in the world have moved beyond the partiarchal family core, others have not, and the results are visible.

So enough of this denial Keruvalia. Your responses to these types of concerns are depressingly predictable, and equally as meaningless. I was not accusing the holy scriptures of Islam of being any more patriarchal or mysogynistic than those of other religions, it is simply that the attitude behind them (men adressing men about women) that, in Arab society, has been so hermetically preserved whearas others have evolved and moved beyond.
Santa Barbara
30-12-2005, 08:40
You say that women are equal in Islam - But simply from those being adressed in the abouve snipped passages it is clear that this is not so. The passages, one of which I quoted as an example, are all adressed to men. Some male author is telling some other male reader how to treat his women.

Yeah.. and if it was a male author addressing women? You'd complain about how the patriarachical domineering Islam is about men commanding women around.

Sorry, but you've set it up so no matter what, you'll complain about the Koran's oppression of women.

So enough of this denial Keruvalia.

His denial is effective.

Your responses to these types of concerns are depressingly predictable, and equally as meaningless. I was not accusing the holy scriptures of Islam of being any more patriarchal or mysogynistic than those of other religions, it is simply that the attitude behind them (men adressing men about women) that, in Arab society, has been so hermetically preserved whearas others have evolved and moved beyond.

Right. So what you're saying is that in no other society can be found books by men, written for other men? Huh. I had no idea our society is so evolved that every book is co-educational.

And none of this has anything to do with Islam excusing "honor killings" or incouraging rape or any of the other bullshit people like yourself like to accuse it of.
Amisk
30-12-2005, 08:41
Islam is not worse than Christianity or any other wingnut religion.
Aryavartha
30-12-2005, 09:14
I'll say that again: IN ISLAM, WOMEN ARE EQUAL!

Period.

Not in the hadiths and the Shariat that the sunnis swear by.

I know you ain't a sunni and it does not apply to you. But more than 70% of muslims are sunni and it is them you should be arguing with.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/006.sbt.html
Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."

Shariat laws are even worse. In Shariat laws, a raped woman has to produce four pious male witnesses to prove the rape. Makes you wonder what the hell were four "pious" males doing witnessing a rape and not preventing it.

Again, this is just the sunnis. But they are the majority. So Keruvalia, either call your religion with some other name, because clearly islam has come to mean something else by the actions of the majority sunnis.:)
Keruvalia
30-12-2005, 09:25
The passages, one of which I quoted as an example, are all adressed to men.

Ummm ... that's because when it comes to how to treat women, men need to be told how ... not women. Duh.
Keruvalia
30-12-2005, 09:28
it is them you should be arguing with.

Oh I do ... and no Muslim has ever called me wrong on this issue once I've shown them the truth.

Shariat laws are even worse. In Shariat laws, a raped woman has to produce four pious male witnesses to prove the rape. Makes you wonder what the hell were four "pious" males doing witnessing a rape and not preventing it.

Shariah is a stain. Muhammed himself warned against it. Shariah is not Islamic.

because clearly islam has come to mean something else by the actions of the majority sunnis.:)

A million wrongs do not make a right. I am not concerned with what a majority does, I am only concerned with what is right and the truth. Allah says women are equal. If 6.2 billion people said women weren't, I'd still be the one voice calling all 6.2 billion wrong.

Edit: Also, check the expiration dates. Any hadith that does not come from Muhammed's lifetime is false hadith.
Eutrusca
30-12-2005, 09:31
"Question about Islamic culture; How does killing your own children "regain honor"?"

It doesn't. It's just one more in the long, sad litany of illusions and nightmares humankind can conjure up. :(
Melayu
30-12-2005, 09:50
how many are u are actually muslim?

btw honour killings are part of mostly arabic culture and existed before the coming of Islam. plus it exists in other societies not only arab. and like some forumers have pointed out it also happens in other socities that are not predominantly muslim. if it is islamic, why 100 million malay/chinese muslims dun practice it? hinduism for example says that if the husband dies, the wife will be burnt.


Adultery and pre-maritial sex has diffrent punishments in Islamic law but it is difficult to prove in court. it is adultery and pre-maritial sex that requires 4 male witnesses of pure character NOT rape. which basically means that pre-maritial sex and adultry is virtually impossible. Punishment for adultery can only be given out by a court. furthermore the more encouraged course of action when a couple engage in pre-maritial sex is for them to be quickly married. And to accuse someone of adultry and pre-maritial sex is a serious thing, in fact to accuse a chaste women of such actions has consequneces far more serious, not only on earth but the here-after.

i kindly ask you guys to learn to seperate culture and religion. arab culture and islamic culture is not synonomous
Aryavartha
30-12-2005, 11:38
I am not concerned with what a majority does, I am only concerned with what is right and the truth.

Forgive me if I am too presumptuous.

One thing I have noticed in even educated muslims who are well aware of what their co-religionists do in the name of their religion, that is, they have a pride on the collective achievements of this ummah but distance themselves on the collective failures.

I have noticed you say this whenever the crusades come up.. "we won the crusades". Dunno if its actually pride, but you do suconsciously identify with the majority on positive issues.

But when it come to the stuff like the majority swearing by misogynistic shariat laws, and past injustices committed by islamic invaders, you give the stock reply "but they are not real muslims" or "I cannot speak for them".

Either you believe in the ummah or not. If you take pride in ummah you are also responsible for the behavior of the ummah. Catch my drift?

Edit: Also, check the expiration dates. Any hadith that does not come from Muhammed's lifetime is false hadith.

I know. Most of the hadiths, especially those of Bukhari and Aisha, are false.

But the reality is that 70% of muslims consider them true and in my very humble opinion, those are the people who needs your attention more (that is if indeed you believe in ummah..I vaguely remember you saying so somewhere)
Saint Jade
30-12-2005, 12:19
Unfortunately, despite the fact that as Keruvalia says, these actions are not condoned by Islam in its written form, a significant minority of the Muslim population claims that they are in line with Islam. Including high-ranking Islamic officials in a range of countries. Which to many Westerners, appears to be the condoning of the practice of honour killing by Islam as a whole, whether or not most Muslims actually engage in or believe inthe practice. Furthermore, many, many Muslims are extremely misogynistic, despite what the Qu'uran says. Just because it is written does not make it so in practice. Perhaps what people should be saying is that we should address the fallacious appropriation and interpretation of Islam by certain cultures and groups, rather than the religion itself.
Eruantalon
30-12-2005, 12:52
Noone should be talking about honor because no one has it anymore. Noone has any respect for human life, animal life or Mother Earth. And you only think something is barbaric because you don't agree with it. So go ahead and wipe it out. Cultural genocide is a human pastime.
People who carry out honour killings have no respect for human life.
Kreitzmoorland
30-12-2005, 17:57
Yeah.. and if it was a male author addressing women? You'd complain about how the patriarachical domineering Islam is about men commanding women around.
Sorry, but you've set it up so no matter what, you'll complain about the Koran's oppression of women.Look, the Koran, like other religious texts like the Bible, and legislative documents like the Jewish mishna and agaddah, were created in an ancient, patriarchal society. The perspective they come from is exrtemely different than our modern perspective gender-wise, and it is not an appropriate guide in terms of attitude, even if its guidelines may be (comparitvely) progressive. Keruvalia claimed that women are equal in Islam; I showed that this is not the case. Who a book is written for, and by, reveales a great deal about the structure and expectations of a society in which it is written. The first thing we think about in any literary criticism is perspective.

I wasn't 'complaining' that the Koran opresses women; I was commenting on what it's structure reveals about the society it comes from - a type of society I have no desire to emulate.
Right. So what you're saying is that in no other society can be found books by men, written for other men? Huh. I had no idea our society is so evolved that every book is co-educational.I am amazed by this declaration. If you even read my post you'll notice that I even gave an example of another system of religious law that is equally as misogynistic. I took pains to point out that the source material in Islam is no diffferent in this respect from others. This is a universal trait of patriarchal society. How you so completely misunderstood me is puzzling.
And none of this has anything to do with Islam excusing "honor killings" or incouraging rape or any of the other bullshit people like yourself like to accuse it of.It has to do with honor kilings because the generalized notion preserved from male-perpective texts like the Koran, that women should be treated as objects, not equals, persists.
OceanDrive3
30-12-2005, 18:47
I wasn't 'complaining' that the Koran opresses women..well... It sure looks like you are complaining from here.
Kreitzmoorland
30-12-2005, 19:05
well... It sure looks like you are complaining from here.If you have a real-life non-flaimbait point go right ahead.
Keruvalia
30-12-2005, 21:35
Keruvalia claimed that women are equal in Islam; I showed that this is not the case.

Actually, no you didn't.

I gave you facts from the Prophet, from Qur'an, and from Hadith. You gave your opinion based on Muhammed having a penis. I would not expect you to be so sexist as to believe a man incapable of teaching.

Also, and this is probably incidental, Qur'an is not written for men. Muhammed did not only give his message to men. Muslim women are allowed in the mosques and are allowed to openly speak in the mosques (unlike the Christian prohibition that women keep silent in the churches) in accordance with Allah's will as told in Qur'an.

I would also like to point out that nearly every Caliph and nearly every Islamic text has passages and parts that talk of women either in the sense of equal or of greater. The Muslim saying "Heaven is at the foot of the Mother" comes to mind. A Muslim household is not a patriarchy, nor should a truly Muslim society be. Some are, many are not.

Those are facts which you have not shown proof otherwise.

If you can show me what one, say, Pakistani Imam believes and hold it as the whole of Islamic truth, can I then use the attitudes of Pat Robertson and hold it as the whole of Christian truth?
Kreitzmoorland
30-12-2005, 21:56
Actually, no you didn't.

I gave you facts from the Prophet, from Qur'an, and from Hadith. You gave your opinion based on Muhammed having a penis. I would not expect you to be so sexist as to believe a man incapable of teaching.

etc
I don't consider a man incapable of teaching. Anyway, Mohammad, according to your tradition, didn't write the scriptures, but they "came down" to him from a divine sourse. Whatever. I can't really argue about theology with you, I don't have the tools. I can do is treat religious texts as I treat other literary texts, and draw sociological conclusions in ths manner. I am not working on the premise that a prophet or any particular person wrote the Koran - that's something we can't know. I was not commenting on the content of your books -I made a simple observation about the perspective of the writing, which is the most elementary means of begining an academic investigation into an ancient text.

Again, if you look at the koran, and other religious texts, as a work with authors, and an internded audience, I think my point is justified.
Good Lifes
30-12-2005, 22:33
Deut 22:13-24

Where are all you good "Christians" that believe every word of the Bible is the very word of God and should be followed literally. I declare you all to be HYPOCRITES!!!!
Keruvalia
31-12-2005, 02:56
I can do is treat religious texts as I treat other literary texts

By discussing them without actually having read them? That just makes no sense. It would be like me debating molecular biology.
Kreitzmoorland
31-12-2005, 03:19
By discussing them without actually having read them? That just makes no sense. It would be like me debating molecular biology.you're making a big stink about one simple observation I made after reading the quotes you posted, an observation that is common to many religions' religious texts. If I was arguing about content and theology I would need to know alot more than I do, but again, you have not adressed my point, but are rather skirting it in an attempt to discredit me.
Santa Barbara
31-12-2005, 04:24
I am amazed by this declaration. If you even read my post you'll notice that I even gave an example of another system of religious law that is equally as misogynistic.

Because your problem is equating "by men, for men" as "misogynistic." By that reasoning any tampon instruction text is "feminazi."

Just because it was written by men doesn't mean the book - LET ALONE the entire religion as you're claiming - is "misogynistic."

It has to do with honor kilings because the generalized notion preserved from male-perpective texts like the Koran, that women should be treated as objects, not equals, persists.

Despite the quotes Keruvalia mentioned? You're going from point A to point 2430. You need more reasoning than what you've shown here, and frankly since your whole point is to condemn an entire religion anyway, I'd rather you not even try.
Gauthier
31-12-2005, 07:11
Let's make a simple declaration:

Anyone who accepts the nutjobs who promote honor killing as authentic and primary representatives of Islam and Muslim culture forfeit their rights to bitch and whine when someone accepts assholes like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell as the authentic and primary representatives of Christianity and Christian culture.
Keruvalia
31-12-2005, 18:23
If I was arguing about content and theology I would need to know alot more than I do, but again, you have not adressed my point, but are rather skirting it in an attempt to discredit me.

But that's just the point, isn't it?

If you don't want to discuss content, you may as well be saying Calculus is bunk because Isaac Newton created it and men studied it.
Kreitzmoorland
31-12-2005, 20:20
Because your problem is equating "by men, for men" as "misogynistic." By that reasoning any tampon instruction text is "feminazi."

Just because it was written by men doesn't mean the book - LET ALONE the entire religion as you're claiming - is "misogynistic." that comparison doesn't hold. A tampon instruction book is a tiny, limited text that applies to one practical issue that only concerns women. Religious texts that tell people how to conduct their lives and what to believe are a little more influential, and it follows that the atitudes within them, starting from their authors' perspectives will be of greater lasting significance than thpose of a technincal instruction booklet. You're outraged that I call Islam and its source books misogynistic because you fail to realize that I have no scruples putting Judaism and Christianity squarely in the same category. Patriarchal society leads to the opression of women, and these religions were developed in a patriachal society - that is my only calim. Some have developed their doctrines further to embrace and promote the leading role of women in this society, others (of all religions) have not.

Despite the quotes Keruvalia mentioned? You're going from point A to point 2430. You need more reasoning than what you've shown here, and frankly since your whole point is to condemn an entire religion anyway, I'd rather you not even try.Again, I wasn't making a full argument: I made the first, elementary observation regarding the cultural climate in which these texts were created, and the implications of it. For example, I've studied Jewish legal texts from the first few centuries in some detail, and if you read carefully, you realize that women, by enlarge, were not participating in the creation of legal tradition, though they are in frequent discussion there. Why is there a book titled "women" in the mishna and not a book titled "men"? You will find many rather progressive laws regarding womne's rights and such, yet how can the overall functioning of a society in which women are subservient not influance the content of the texts it produces? The gender notions preserved in the subtext of a book rear their ugly heads continually if we, as modern readers do not contnually restrain/evolve them.
Mazalandia
01-01-2006, 17:05
I think the death rates of Palestinians:Isrealis is somewhere along 3:1 which means there is a factual basis for a Repression/Oppression of the Palestinians at least. Nothing near a "genocide" though.

But er...on the topic itself, Islamic culture and Sharia law does promote abusing/killing your family; however I think it is only a minor factor. Lunacy and fanatacism are to blame. Sharia law does encourage those two factors but isnot the root cause of those actions. It is just irrational people acting up in a society that condones irrational actions.

Interesting, Sharia Law promotes this. (That is not sarcasm by the way)
Seems consistant with the commonly reported instances, that the geographical areas that this happens in are Sharia.
Slightly off topic, but since Sharia Law is based on Islam, and Western Law is based on Judeo-Christan beliefs, what is the Indian law based on?
Hinduism, or British law due to former colony status?
Aryavartha
01-01-2006, 19:14
what is the Indian law based on?
Hinduism, or British law due to former colony status?

Principles are rooted in hindu dharma but the legal system (structure etc) are a British legacy.

But muslims can opt for a seperate law board for personal matters.
Santa Barbara
01-01-2006, 19:29
that comparison doesn't hold. A tampon instruction book is a tiny, limited text that applies to one practical issue that only concerns women. Religious texts that tell people how to conduct their lives and what to believe are a little more influential, and it follows that the atitudes within them, starting from their authors' perspectives will be of greater lasting significance than thpose of a technincal instruction booklet.

Author's perspectives have nothing to do with it. Again, I contend tampon instructions are written by feminazis. Thus, people who use tampons are feminazis. Is that valid?

Size doesn't matter, BTW. It's an analogy, not a direct comparison of length, and I rather feel that since tampons are used by a large percentage of women on a regular basis, the lasting significance is roughly equatable anyway. Particularly as secularism will inevitably kill all the old religions, but tampons will last forever.


You're outraged that I call Islam and its source books misogynistic because you fail to realize that I have no scruples putting Judaism and Christianity squarely in the same category.

No, nice try. I don't care if you're ALSO a jerk when it comes to other religions. The point is you're making claims that the society of an author somehow leaks into the mentality of any reader. Have you read the Koran? Are you now a misogynist because of it? Or do you - like all other humans - possess the amazing capacity to not become the author of a book you read?

Patriarchal society leads to the opression of women, and these religions were developed in a patriachal society - that is my only calim.

No, your claim was that Islam is a misogynic religion. Now you're hedging your bets because you realize that might have been too wide a brush you were painting with - and it was.

Judaism, Christianity, all of them were developed in societies far more brutal than our own, but that doesn't mean the religions themselves, the books or the people who read them are brutal people.


Again, I wasn't making a full argument

Oh, Okay.
Kreitzmoorland
01-01-2006, 20:51
Author's perspectives have nothing to do with it. Again, I contend tampon instructions are written by feminazis. Thus, people who use tampons are feminazis. Is that valid? If I lived in a family that was dominated by feminazis, and was forced to read the instruction booklet all the time, and was taught to accept it without questioning, and associated with it a culture of man-hatred, then indeed, I would run the very high risk of becoming a feminazi myself. The cultural environment in which a text is read is important too, obviously - but the you get into and chicken and egg dilema of what created what (a text, or a surrounding culture), and which is the largest contrubutor. I choose to attribute a combined set of circumstances to the emergance of brutal, sexist society in some Arab countries.

You say that authors perspectives have nothing to do with it. I urge you to take a first year literary critiscism course. I did not invent this premise.

No, nice try. I don't care if you're ALSO a jerk when it comes to other religions. The point is you're making claims that the society of an author somehow leaks into the mentality of any reader. Have you read the Koran? Are you now a misogynist because of it? Or do you - like all other humans - possess the amazing capacity to not become the author of a book you read?No, I have been careful throughout this discussion to point out that there are people that critically read, evolve, and re-interpret religious texts constantly, and that these are the majority that I'm not concerned about. I think that the 'society of the author' as you say DOES leak into the mentality of some readers. I have not changed my tune - go back and read the oiginal posts.

No, your claim was that Islam is a misogynic religion. Now you're hedging your bets because you realize that might have been too wide a brush you were painting with - and it was.You misunderstood me then - I did not explain my perspective fully (flasely believing it to be obvious), something I will now attempt to do, below. At no time did I say that all the adherents to Islam were mysogynistic, which is the only way it is possible to really say that the whole religion is such. My definition of religion is perhaps different from yours. I don't even believe that religions HAVE essential, universal characteristics.

Judaism, Christianity, all of them were developed in societies far more brutal than our own, but that doesn't mean the religions themselves, the books or the people who read them are brutal people. This brings up the interesting question of what you believe to be "the religion itself". I don't think its possible to construct an objective frame for the "true religion", or the "religion itself", and then decide what gets in, or characterize what this religion is or isn't exactly (as Keruvalia tries constantly to do, with ridiculous results).

My only rational answer to what a religion's being consists of, is whatever the people practicing percieve it to be; there is not other objective answer. Thus, there are many different versions of Judaism, and they are all true, since they posses a following. If violence is a trait of a certain group of muslims, than their Islam is violent, given that it is the main defining commonality between then, and there is no other obvious source to the violence such as war etc. I don't see religious groups as a united whole which is prone to cross-contamination from its different segments, nor do i stigmatize swaths of people myself. I can thus say without scruples that in a certain place and time, a religion has had a certain devastating influence.
Desperate Measures
01-01-2006, 21:34
Behold, [here is] my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.

But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.

Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord [was], till it was light.

...

And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, [together] with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.

...

And I took my concubine, and cut her in pieces, and sent her throughout all the country of the inheritance of Israel: for they have committed lewdness and folly in Israel.
Kreitzmoorland
01-01-2006, 21:41
Desperate Measures, you should include a citation with your quotes. But yes, that passage is an example from the books of judges (if I remember right). It is in a series of chapters describing the depravity that Israel fell into, indicating the need for a king to unite the nation, which would soon follow. The passage itself is one of the most disturbing in the bible, and has several term paper's worth of interesting stuff to study.
Desperate Measures
01-01-2006, 21:46
Desperate Measures, you should include a citation with your quotes. But yes, that passage is an example from the books of judges (if I remember right). It is in a series of chapters describing the depravity that Israel fell into, indicating the need for a king to unite the nation, which would soon follow. The passage itself is one of the most disturbing in the bible, and has several term paper's worth of interesting stuff to study.
Not giving it a citation was the point.
Kreitzmoorland
01-01-2006, 21:58
Not giving it a citation was the point.
not a very clear one then. We can't read your mind.
Desperate Measures
03-01-2006, 22:06
not a very clear one then. We can't read your mind.
Reading my mind wasn't necessary. Just reading the passage was. I was interested in people's reaction to the passage, not the source.
Keruvalia
03-01-2006, 22:36
as Keruvalia tries constantly to do, with ridiculous results

You just refuse to accept that I may be right.

Fine, you want cultural construct and author's perspective? First, read the quotes about women from Muhammad himself. The best and only way to truly interpret Qur'an is by how Muhammad lived his life.

Second, Saudi Arabia - pre-Qur'an - was a horrble place to be a woman. Women were slaves, concubines, property, and that's if they weren't buried alive at birth. Part of Islam's purpose was to stop that treatment of women and place them as societal equals.

Islam is not, in any way, misogynistic. You have yet to show proof, other than your own uninformed opinion (which leads to rediculous results), for your allegation to be true.
Gauthier
03-01-2006, 22:49
You just refuse to accept that I may be right.

Fine, you want cultural construct and author's perspective? First, read the quotes about women from Muhammad himself. The best and only way to truly interpret Qur'an is by how Muhammad lived his life.

Second, Saudi Arabia - pre-Qur'an - was a horrble place to be a woman. Women were slaves, concubines, property, and that's if they weren't buried alive at birth. Part of Islam's purpose was to stop that treatment of women and place them as societal equals.

Islam is not, in any way, misogynistic. You have yet to show proof, other than your own uninformed opinion (which leads to rediculous results), for your allegation to be true.

Busheviks need the myth of Savage Islam and the Savage Muslim in order to justify the quarter-assed foreign policy that Dear Leader has pursued in the Middle East. If for some reason they started realizing Muslims are human beings, they'd find it difficult to accept "The War on Terrorism" as Shrub calls his Quest for Oil.
Kreitzmoorland
03-01-2006, 22:51
Islam is not, in any way, misogynistic. You have yet to show proof, other than your own uninformed opinion (which leads to rediculous results), for your allegation to be true.It seems that we're speaking different languages. I look at reality on the ground and draw conclusions from there. You look at sources and and decide what should and should not be. I perfectly understand that in your practice of Islam, women must be treated equally, etc. but you can't generalize that, nor claim it to be the only way that is muslim. I mean, you can, and do, but the de-classification of other muslims isn't very meaningful. It is possible for cultures/religious segments to stray form their original purpose, and spirit - it happens all the time.

You ask for proof? Large populations of muslims that participate in societies of inequality and repression; that's reality-on-the-ground proof.
Keruvalia
04-01-2006, 01:43
It seems that we're speaking different languages. I look at reality on the ground and draw conclusions from there. You look at sources and and decide what should and should not be.

Okie so we have a differing thing here.

1] I have Qur'an. Qur'an, to all Muslims, is the unquestionable word of God. Qur'an says, quite clearly, that women are to be treated with respect. It also says that anyone who disobeys Qur'an is not Muslim.

2] You have people who call themselves Muslim, yet break #1, and you believe them to be Muslim. Therefore, you have decided for yourself - without even reading the Muslim holy text - what is and is not Muslim.

Yes, of course I look at sources. If 5000 people who have never been to medical school tell me I need to have a leg amputated and one licensed, experienced doctor tells me I don't, I'm going to listen to the doctor.

Wouldn't you?
Keruvalia
04-01-2006, 01:44
You ask for proof? Large populations of muslims that participate in societies of inequality and repression; that's reality-on-the-ground proof.

That proves that they are not Muslim.
Kreitzmoorland
04-01-2006, 08:09
Well, I'm just about done with this thread - I've already repeated myself more times than I usually do. If I keep replying to you, Keruvalia, I'll just be saying what I've already said: essentially, that with a fluid aggregation of ritual, philosophy, and culture that comprises religion, the only objective determinant of that religion are all its ostensible participants and their behaviour (unlike empirically measurable skill sets such as medicine or carpentry).
Oh god, I did it again.

It's been fun thrashing it out with y'all, and If I have something novel to say, I'll be back.
AMW China
04-01-2006, 08:22
We should be more tolerant of the practices of other cultures. The people who object to this clearly have a racist agenda that opposes Islam.

Sarcasm