NationStates Jolt Archive

Canada blames U.S. for gun violence.

Yes isn't this classic. Blaming the US for there own problems. Of course Canada should take it one step further and just blame Bush. What a bunch of crap this is. Canadians couldn't possibly be violent. It must be that bad influence the US has over us. It's there fault if someone get's shot in Canada. This almost makes me laugh at Canada.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/12/27/canada.crime.ap/index.html

Who was the last leader who blamed the U.S. this pathetically? Oh yeah, Chavez.

I thought there already was a thread about this, and people were explaining there why they thought the US laws and culture may have had something to do with it.
Might want to look there.

I thought there already was a thread about this, and people were explaining there why they thought the US laws and culture may have had something to do with it.
Might want to look there.
Meh, if we're talking about the same thread, all I saw was a guy telling everyone that it was pointless to talk about anything, and two sides fighting over the credibility of each other.

I thought there already was a thread about this, and people were explaining there why they thought the US laws and culture may have had something to do with it.
Might want to look there.

This one has a flashy headline and story to go along with it.

Meh, if we're talking about the same thread, all I saw was a guy telling everyone that it was pointless to talk about anything, and two sides fighting over the credibility of each other.
Yay! Go NS!!!

No, but really, you'll get the same thing here. The question is whether or not the guns came over from the States, whether or not the people who committed the crimes came from the States and whether or not the murderers were influenced by something or someone from the States.

I'd think that they were their own people, apparently living in poverty and so on, and that the only thing might have been that it is easier to get your hands on a gun near the US border than it would be for example in Europe.

Or, to actually quote the mayor of Toronto from the article...

Miller said that while almost every other crime in Toronto is down, the supply of guns has increased and half of them come from the United States.

Miller said the availability of stolen Canadian guns is another problem, and that poverty in certain Toronto neighborhoods is a root cause.

"There are neighborhoods in Toronto where young people face barriers of poverty, discrimination and don't have real hope and opportunity. The kind of programs that we once took for granted in Canada that would reach out to young people have systematically disappeared over the past decade and I think that gun violence is a symptom of a much bigger problem," Miller said.


In other words, he is NOT blaming the US but rather an issue of poverty in some areas as well as a lack of social programs. Nor does he blame America, but rather noting that there is an issue with smuggled weapons from the US. One would assume that this smuggling is NOT done as official american policy, however it IS fair to note where some of the weapons are coming from and look into ways to curb the flow. You know, kinda like drug interdiction from South and Central America.


Nor does a request by the PM to work with the US to curb such smuggling point the finger at your government. Hey, I thought working towards better border security was a good thing! I mean, you sure like us working with you in regards to terrorism is such matters.



So, to reference the initial post, let me take the moment to reccommend a course in reading comprehension. IT might help you get over your victim complex and enable you to actually READ statements and take the correct inferences from it.

Or, to actually quote the mayor of Toronto from the article...



In other words, he is NOT blaming the US but rather an issue of poverty in some areas as well as a lack of social programs. Nor does he blame America, but rather noting that there is an issue with smuggled weapons from the US. One would assume that this smuggling is NOT done as official american policy.


Nor does a request by the PM to work with the US to curb such smuggling point the finger at your government. Hey, I thought working towards better border security was a good thing! I mean, you sure like us working with you in regards to terrorism is such matters.



So, to reference the initial post, let me take the moment to reccommend a course in reading comprehension. IT might help you get over your victim complex and enable you to actually READ statements and take the correct inferences from it.

Yes, our victim complex...:rolleyes:

"It's a sign that the lack of gun laws in the U.S. is allowing guns to flood across the border that are literally being used to kill people in the streets of Toronto," Miller said.

"The U.S. is exporting its problem of violence to the streets of Toronto," he said





(BTW: John Thompson, a security analyst with the Toronto-based Mackenzie Institute, says the number of guns smuggled from the United States is a problem, but that Canada has a gang problem -- not a gun problem -- and that Canada should stop pointing the finger at the United States.

"It's a cop out. It's an easy way of looking at one symptom rather than addressing a whole disease," Thompson said.)

Yes, our victim complex...:rolleyes:

"It's a sign that the lack of gun laws in the U.S. is allowing guns to flood across the border that are literally being used to kill people in the streets of Toronto," Miller said.

"The U.S. is exporting its problem of violence to the streets of Toronto," he said



(BTW: John Thompson, a security analyst with the Toronto-based Mackenzie Institute, says the number of guns smuggled from the United States is a problem, but that Canada has a gang problem -- not a gun problem -- and that Canada should stop pointing the finger at the United States.

"It's a cop out. It's an easy way of looking at one symptom rather than addressing a whole disease," Thompson said.)

So, you are saying that the ease to acquire guns in the US ISN'T a factor in the smuggling? That Canada SHOULDN'T look to curbing such smuggling as part of the solution to the problem in conjunction with the other root causes mentioned?

I mean, the fact IS that gun crime is up in Toronto, as is smuggling weapons from the US. For Canada not to make note of BOTH facts and look at a comprehensive plan to counter this emergenece in street violence would be stupid wouldn't it?


But hey, if all you want to take from it is "it's all your fault", then you're just looking to find that in the text. Be my guest and go ahead if it makes you feel better. But you are cherry-picking quotes and putting your own little self-serving spin on it in my opinion.

Hah! Even other Canadians are calling bullshit. Even if firearms weren't coming over the border, the gangs would use either hand weapons or homemade bludgeoning implements.

And seriously, who the fuck is smuggling howitzers over the border, and why are Canadian gangs trained to use mechanized, crew-served, large-caliber implements of war? Further, which US corporation is manufacturing these illicit military weapons? Unless Martin wants to start claiming that the Illuminati, using the seemingly innocent guise of the Free Masons, are conjuring them out of thin air and teleporting them across the border for some unknown but obviously nefarious purpose. Oh yes, Canada's actually that significant and important the the US would waste its time undermining the government of its northern neighbor.

Canada blames U.S. for gun violence.

Yes isn't this classic. Blaming the US for there own problems. Of course Canada should take it one step further and just blame Bush. What a bunch of crap this is. Canadians couldn't possibly be violent. It must be that bad influence the US has over us. It's there fault if someone get's shot in Canada. This almost makes me laugh at Canada.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/12/27/canada.crime.ap/index.html
Illegal gun imports from the US due to cut backs on Canadian border patrols and lax gun laws in the US are partly to blame, but what's really fueling the gun violence in Toronto are poverty and social problems among young people and that's very sad.

edit: <<< I'm a "pimp" now!?!

Hah! Even other Canadians are calling bullshit. Even if firearms weren't coming over the border, the gangs would use either hand weapons or homemade bludgeoning implements.

From the article:

gunfire erupted Monday on a busy street filled with holiday shoppers, killing a 15-year-old girl and wounding six bystanders.

Three females and four males were injured, including one male who is in critical condition. Police believe they were bystanders.

This wouldn't have happened if the gangs were only armed with melee weapons. Those kind of weapons usually don't hit bystanders. Guns, on the other hand...

This wouldn't have happened if the gangs were only armed with melee weapons. Those kind of weapons usually don't hit bystanders. Guns, on the other hand...So we should promote swordplay over gunfighting?
I suppose it'll make gangbattles more interesting to look at.

So we should promote swordplay over gunfighting?
I suppose it'll make gangbattles more interesting to look at.

Who claims anything of the sort? We should not promote any illegal acts, should we?

My point was, when innocent people get caught in the crossfire there is going to be an outcry, more so than when gang-members get hurt. (I guess that's because they "choose to participate" in a way...)

It is easier for innocent bystanders to get hurt when guns are involved then when melee weapons are used. And the problem wouldn't be as big if there were no guns in the hands of the gangs, no guns being smuggled accross the border...

If America is to blame for Canadians killing each other, than Germany is responsible for Neo-Nazis in America, Britain is responsible for crime in Australia, Saudi Arabia and the other Muslim countries are responsible for the terrorist bombings across the world, and South America is responsible for Americas drug problem.

'However, none of them are.

Blame, Blame, Blame. If you want to solve a problem, blame will get you zilch. Find out why people are killing each other, and fix it. I know it's way more complicated than I stated it, but blame is the greatest cause of inactivity in this world.

It's easier to blame someone else than to take responsibility for your own actions.

It's easier to blame someone else than to take responsibility for your own actions.

I find this statement, and your existing political stance, to be somewhat ironic.

If America is to blame for Canadians killing each other, than Germany is responsible for Neo-Nazis in America, Britain is responsible for crime in Australia, Saudi Arabia and the other Muslim countries are responsible for the terrorist bombings across the world, and South America is responsible for Americas drug problem.

'However, none of them are.

Blame, Blame, Blame. If you want to solve a problem, blame will get you zilch. Find out why people are killing each other, and fix it. I know it's way more complicated than I stated it, but blame is the greatest cause of inactivity in this world.

It's easier to blame someone else than to take responsibility for your own actions.

I agree in part with what you are saying, but I feel that there is a difference between assigning blame and acknowledging when someone else is part of a larger problemcomplex. Like I've mentioned above, there is a problem with gang violence, but the problem is more dangerous since they hurt innocent bystanders with the guns they've got. And if the guns they have are legally bought over the counter in the USA and then smuggled across the border, well then america has become a part of the problem.

Wrong approach: "America is responsible."
Right approach: "We've got a problem, your country makes the problem worse, what can we together do to minimize the damage?"

Seems like the canadians are doing both at the same time.

I think a few issues need to be addressed.

"Smuggling" anything across the border is a crime. The border security needs to be tightened up. Security at the borders and ports needs to be conducted by qualified people and they should get rewards for illegal offensive weapons their dilligence recovers.

People caught smuggling the illegal items need to prosecuted more vigorously.

Gang issues need to be addressed. They need to be investigated and pursued more dilligently. If violence is their thing, they will get the weapons they need to do it. The ones caught at this need to be held to the strict letter of the law.

Canada blames US?

There's news.:rolleyes:

I think a few issues need to be addressed.

"Smuggling" anything across the border is a crime. The border security needs to be tightened up. Security at the borders and ports needs to be conducted by qualified people and they should get rewards for illegal offensive weapons their dilligence recovers.

People caught smuggling the illegal items need to prosecuted more vigorously.

Gang issues need to be addressed. They need to be investigated and pursued more dilligently. If violence is their thing, they will get the weapons they need to do it. The ones caught at this need to be held to the strict letter of the law.Did I mention I just downloaded, the other day, step by step instructions to make a fully automatic machine gun made entirely of tube steel, and not even requiring a welder?

Yeah, it isn't hard to kill people if you want to kill someone. So go ahead and blame America if people in your country kill eachother. We'll just keep laughing at you like we always do.


PS. No, I didn't dowload them to build it. I was just interested to see how easy it is. And it's frighteningly easy.

That title is very misleading. Also, don't say "Canadians blame the U.S" because not all Canadians think that way. Also, they say American gun exportation has a part in Toronto gun crimes.

That title is very misleading. Also, don't say "Canadians blame the U.S" because not all Canadians think that way. Also, they say American gun exportation has a part in Toronto gun crimes.


Hell, as I pointed out even the people quoted in the article didn't make that claim. They just noted that smuggled weapons from the U.S. were a PART of the problem.

Which it is.

And if people want to give Canada a hard time for wanting to work with the US to improve border security, then I suggest they stick any whines about that same issue when it comes to terrorism up their asses. We both have concerns with who and what flows across our borders. If you want to work together, then one should look at the concerns of both parties.

It's a sensationalist article with a missleading title. Canada does not blame the US. A few individuals such as the Mayor of Toronto David Miller and Prime Minister Paul Martin have simply stated that the free influx of guns from the US is part of the problem.

That title is very misleading. Also, don't say "Canadians blame the U.S" because not all Canadians think that way. Also, they say American gun exportation has a part in Toronto gun crimes.

Americans are NOT the ones pulling the trigger, the Canadians are.

As I already stated and some people have already said, the criminals are repeat offenders and they have the resources to buy guns and ammunation and perform drive bys. You don't buy a gun at EBGames for 40 bucks; they cost hundreds to thousands of dollars.

If you want to help the problem socially, start promoting businesses to come to Ontario and so these kids get a job to get off the streets and start something for once. "It is easier to get a gun than a job."

That would at least reduce the youth part. Most kids who join gangs go there because they have nothing else or have no living. When it is easier to cap someone and rob their wallet then finding a minimum wage job, guess what the people in poverty going to do?

The problem isn't the guns either. The people performing these crimes are, in fact, gangs. These are not lonesome individuals, but gangs.

And you don't act friendly with gangs. From what I hear from Ottawa, you can be arrested for simply being PART of a gang. You don't have to be commit a crime or do anything illegal. Just being part of a gang will get you arrested.

Toronto could use a law like that. That, and getting rid of the politically correct bullshit.

Canada City']Americans are NOT the ones pulling the trigger, the Canadians are.


And, as mentioned before, if Canada has no reason to involve the U.S. in dealing with an issue where smuggling is a contributing factor, then the U.S. has no business involving themselves with working with South and Central American countries on doing drug interdiction. After all, it's not the Columbians consuming the cocaine so they are not really a factor right?

Canada City']And you don't act friendly with gangs. From what I hear from Ottawa, you can be arrested for simply being PART of a gang. You don't have to be commit a crime or do anything illegal. Just being part of a gang will get you arrested.

Toronto could use a law like that. That, and getting rid of the politically correct bullshit.


Errr, so you think that there is a difference in laws between Ottawa and Toronto?

Wow! Canada has per-city criminal statutes now?

That IS news!!!!!!!

Errr, so you think that there is a difference in laws between Ottawa and Toronto?

Wow! Canada has per-city criminal statutes now?

That IS news!!!!!!!

http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/view.cgi?category=Canada&story=/news/2000/12/06/auger_crime001206


Canadian lawmakers have tried to stop organized crime by introducing anti-gang legislation. It is illegal in Canada now to be a member of a criminal organization. The new law gives courts the power to sentence gang members to longer terms.

The law is currently being tested in Montreal at the trial of eight men charged with drug trafficking and being members of a biker gang called the Rock Machine.


Ottawa and Quebec is actually enforcing it. Obvious, Toronto isn't. We would be labelled "Racial profiling" right away.

Canada City']

Ottawa and Quebec is actually enforcing it. Obvious, Toronto isn't. We would be labelled "Racial profiling" right away.


So you have proof that charges have not been laid in Toronto using this new legislation? I mean, it certainly seems that your notion that Toronto is NOT taskforcing gang-related issues is complete and utter bullshit (http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/08/05/Toronto-shootings-050805.html)



Or perhaps it is just that, like all new legislation, the media is watching the first cases that involve it to see how it stands up?

Whichseems like it has already been challenged and will get kicked up to the Supreme Court (http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/12/13/bc_ganglaw051213.html) thanks to a ruling in BC.

New legislation takes time to be tested in the courts. And it takes time for the first cases to make it to trial.

but it certainly DOESN'T seem to take any time for you to make completely false arguments......

So you have proof that charges have not been laid in Toronto using this new legislation? I mean, it certainly seems that your notion that Toronto is NOT taskforcing gang-related issues is complete and utter bullshit


It's nice they are doing their job, but obviously it isn't enough. There is still a spike in crime.

We need the law to work the police, not against them.

So you have proof that charges have not been laid in Toronto using this new legislation? I mean, it certainly seems that your notion that Toronto is NOT taskforcing gang-related issues is complete and utter bullshit (http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/08/05/Toronto-shootings-050805.html)



Or perhaps it is just that, like all new legislation, the media is watching the first cases that involve it to see how it stands up?

Whichseems like it has already been challenged and will get kicked up to the Supreme Court (http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/12/13/bc_ganglaw051213.html) thanks to a ruling in BC.

New legislation takes time to be tested in the courts. And it takes time for the first cases to make it to trial.

but it certainly DOESN'T seem to take any time for you to make completely false arguments......


Silli, I would argue that despite the various measures taken so far, none are really addressing the root causes.

Gangs and gun violence are symptoms of deeper social problems. Deeper than guns and deeper than gangs.

Politicians, on the other hand, love to say that they're incarcerating more youth, confiscating more illicit drugs, getting guns off the street, and spending more money to "taskforce" gangs.

All of which rarely, in historical perspective, does anything except raise the prison population and raise the level of violence on the street.

If I had to put a cause on the precipitous drop in violence in the US (after the precipitous climb in the 1980s and 1990s), I would say it was the radical decentralization of the poor - the closing of massive housing projects and redistributing them amongst the rest of the population.

It seems to have put a lot of the fire of violence out here.

An examination of the social ills in Canada might be in order before people knee jerk themselves into doing next to nothing.

Or, to actually quote the mayor of Toronto from the article...



In other words, he is NOT blaming the US but rather an issue of poverty in some areas as well as a lack of social programs. Nor does he blame America, but rather noting that there is an issue with smuggled weapons from the US. One would assume that this smuggling is NOT done as official american policy, however it IS fair to note where some of the weapons are coming from and look into ways to curb the flow. You know, kinda like drug interdiction from South and Central America.


Nor does a request by the PM to work with the US to curb such smuggling point the finger at your government. Hey, I thought working towards better border security was a good thing! I mean, you sure like us working with you in regards to terrorism is such matters.

So, to reference the initial post, let me take the moment to reccommend a course in reading comprehension.

I find it quite interesting in your attempt to belittle a poster that you negelected to include the mayors entire quote. You seem to have left out this little part of the AP story concerning the mayors comments...

"What happened yesterday was appalling. You just don't expect it in a Canadian city," Toronto Mayor David Miller told The Associated Press.

Miller said that while almost every other type of crime is down in Toronto, the supply of guns has increased and half of them come from the United States.

"The U.S. is exporting its problem of violence to the streets of Toronto," he complained.

CNN is well known for it's creative editing, ommissions of fact, and even going so far as to agree to work as a tool of propaganda for Saddam in exchange for greater access than other news organizations. This is an excellent example of how a simple ommission of key portion of a wire service article can change the entire context of that information. You might do well to double check the content posted on CNN with the actually AP article, before using it to justify flaming someone.

Another point that you seem to miss is that it was Canada that stopped manning it's border crossings many many months ago and at the height of American requests to increase them. To say that the Canadian government was wanting to increase border security and work with the United States on the issue is a stretch of some magnitutide, however, once again there may be the possiblility that Canadians did not even know this was going on since you have no freedom of the press. (Something even Americans were not aware of until you had to find out about your own governmental scams from across the border)

I am actually sorry for a lot of Canadians that would prefer to know the truth about what is going on around them instead of living in a world of bliss falsely created by my government. Especially if they have been telling me I am so much more intelligent than I actually am.

Sadly, I am much afraid that the only viable solution to the situation is to close the border with Canada completely until such time a more permanent FENCE can be built to keep all the awful Americans from sneeking into Canada with evil guns and corrupting their citizens in the pristine land of Toronto (2nd most over crowded city in North America with an urban saturation of almost 7000 people per square mile). Of course this little fact could not even come close to playing a role in the problem, it must be the evil Americans fault.

So, you are saying that the ease to acquire guns in the US ISN'T a factor in the smuggling? That Canada SHOULDN'T look to curbing such smuggling as part of the solution to the problem in conjunction with the other root causes mentioned? The last time I went across the Lower Border Canadian Customs/RCMP about disasembled my car looking for weapons - that was 8 YEARS ago. They are particularly vicious at the Whitehorse crossing.

(Then again, when I crossed over into YT at the Top of the World Hwy on my way from Eagle AK to Dawson City YT, the Mounty wouldn't let me cross (I was tent-camping) untill I proved to ther I had a shotgun and sutible anti-bear ammo.) Edit: The YT and other northern Provences actually know a few things about firearms... unlike the Citified regions. :rolleyes: )
I mean, the fact IS that gun crime is up in Toronto, as is smuggling weapons from the US. For Canada not to make note of BOTH facts and look at a comprehensive plan to counter this emergenece in street violence would be stupid wouldn't it? We can't stop the flow of BC Bud and they can't stop the flow of guns... what's the connection... oh yeah, CRIMINAL GANGS. The RCMP will harrass the shit out of normal folks crossing the border, but somehow the Bud & Guns still exchange hands.. :rolleyes:

Guns (legal/illegal) do make it through the Canadian border from the US, the same as Canadian weed making through the American border, you decide which one is more serious. The problem starts when those guns make it into Canadian hands, and the trigger is pulled. That's when it comes to being a Canadian problem and not a US problem. Blaming the US is pointless becuase their cities are plagued with gun voilence and their first priority is to stop the voilence in thier cities not Canadian cities.

Or, to actually quote the mayor of Toronto from the article...



In other words, he is NOT blaming the US but rather an issue of poverty in some areas as well as a lack of social programs. Nor does he blame America, but rather noting that there is an issue with smuggled weapons from the US. One would assume that this smuggling is NOT done as official american policy, however it IS fair to note where some of the weapons are coming from and look into ways to curb the flow. You know, kinda like drug interdiction from South and Central America.


Nor does a request by the PM to work with the US to curb such smuggling point the finger at your government. Hey, I thought working towards better border security was a good thing! I mean, you sure like us working with you in regards to terrorism is such matters.




Now THAT'S no fun! Everyone was rolling up their sleeves for some good old Canadian-bashing...how can they do that if the flashy thread title is false???

Canada City']

The problem isn't the guns either. The people performing these crimes are, in fact, gangs. These are not lonesome individuals, but gangs.

Drugs aren't the problem either...drug pushers and users ARE. Yet the US expends a lot of energy trying to prevent drugs from illegally entering the country...as well as working with producer countries to stem the tide of smuggling. Kind of like what we'd like to do with the US in terms of guns...but somehow it makes more sense to people to assume that this means "it's your fault, not ours"? Quite the double standard.

I find it quite interesting in your attempt to belittle a poster that you negelected to include the mayors entire quote. You seem to have left out this little part of the AP story concerning the mayors comments...

"What happened yesterday was appalling. You just don't expect it in a Canadian city," Toronto Mayor David Miller told The Associated Press.

Miller said that while almost every other type of crime is down in Toronto, the supply of guns has increased and half of them come from the United States.

"The U.S. is exporting its problem of violence to the streets of Toronto," he complained.

Now every individual politician who talks shit speaks for all of Canada?:rolleyes: We must have quite the schizophrenic conciousness then...our politicians contradict one another and have *gasp* different opinions on a wide range of issues.

You know, if you'd like to discuss the actual issue...that of violence in Canada, it would be nice if you didn't start out by claiming that somehow ALL Canadians blame the US for violence. It's hard to take such a ridiculous premise seriously, and then move onto a real issue.

Canada blames U.S. for gun violence.
But of course! Why would you expect anything else? It's analogous to some women who always blame their husbands for everything that happens which they don't like, something with which I am intimately acquainted.

Makes a good argument for doing as you see fit and letting them just rant on, doesn't it. Heh! :p

Now every individual politician who talks shit speaks for all of Canada?:rolleyes: We must have quite the schizophrenic conciousness then...our politicians contradict one another and have *gasp* different opinions on a wide range of issues.

You know, if you'd like to discuss the actual issue...that of violence in Canada, it would be nice if you didn't start out by claiming that somehow ALL Canadians blame the US for violence. It's hard to take such a ridiculous premise seriously, and then move onto a real issue.

Might I ask just where in my post did I make any such claim that All Canadians blame the US for violence?

My post consisted entirely of pointing out the fact that the origional article was creatively edited thus changing the entire context of the truth and enabling the poster to use it as some sort of justification for flaming another poster. One may note that I did not blame the poster for this creative editing , but merely pointed out that the regulated flow of information allowed to reach the Canadian people may in part contribute to the misconceptions so often stated by Canadians.

How you can come to the conclusion that you did leaves me somewhat confused as to the intention of your reply. One may note that this was the only post that even mentions "Urban Saturation" as a primary cause to your problems in Toronto, something I would have hoped would cause you to research further, as opposed to deflecting from the issues stated. I really should have known better however, as you are probably the most closed minded Canadian Leftist I have ever encountered.

Might I ask just where in my post did I make any such claim that All Canadians blame the US for violence?

My post consisted entirely of pointing out the fact that the origional article was creatively edited thus changing the entire context of the truth and enabling the poster to use it as some sort of justification for flaming another poster. One may note that I did not blame the poster for this creative editing , but merely pointed out that the regulated flow of information allowed to reach the Canadian people may in part contribute to the misconceptions so often stated by Canadians.

How you can come to the conclusion that you did leaves me somewhat confused as to the intention of your reply. One may note that this was the only post that even mentions "Urban Saturation" as a primary cause to your problems in Toronto, something I would have hoped would cause you to research further, as opposed to deflecting from the issues stated. I really should have known better however, as you are probably the most closed minded Canadian Leftist I have ever encountered.
I'll overlook this pointless flame (though I'll thank you for using 'left' instead of 'liberal')and clarify that I actually didn't mean to direct that post at you. I should've stated that better...I was using your quote of Toronto's mayor to question the original premise of the thread, but as I did in no way make that clear, I apologise if it seemed that I was attacking you.

I'll overlook this pointless flame (though I'll thank you for using 'left' instead of 'liberal')and clarify that I actually didn't mean to direct that post at you. I should've stated that better...I was using your quote of Toronto's mayor to question the original premise of the thread, but as I did in no way make that clear, I apologise if it seemed that I was attacking you.

Apology accepted and for my own part, "closed minded" was unfair. Would you by chance consider, "hard headed" as a peace offering? I know it is accurate in my own self description.;)

From some of the comments, you'd think that the US had never, ever blamed Canada for anything. At least the US is a source of illegal guns.

What about things that the US has blamed on Canada, where later it was found that Canada was not responsible, like the 2003 blackout in eastern Canada and the US and the assumption that the 9-11 terrorists entered the US from Canada?

Politicians like to point fingers at someone else to deflect responsiblity. This happens on both sides of the border. It's not a Canadian thing - it's not an American thing. It's a politician thing.

Let's give the devil his due, the smuggler's aren't stupid; if they were stupid, they would have been caught. They aren't going to cross at checkpoints where US Customs can search and arrest them. Frankly, the US isn't going to expend money to help Canada deal with its crime problem when the US is dealing with its own.

Unless Canada takes proactive steps now to deal with gang-related crime, which isn't likely with the current government because all left-wing types in government do is blame others and spend money on "social projects" instead of actually arresting people who murder innocent bystanders, then Canada is going to have a problem with gangs for the next 30 years. The US is only now getting on top of its gang problem, and if Canada really wants the US to help it will consult agencies like the LAPD about how to best go about dealing with innercity crime.

But don't, and I mean don't, suggest that law abiding Americans who legally posses firearms have anything to do with it. American gangs and/or organized crime do, but creating more restrictive laws for firearms, and thus violating the constitution, is not the answer. If criminals had any respect for the rule of law, they wouldn't be criminals in the first place.

Apology accepted and for my own part, "closed minded" was unfair. Would you by chance consider, "hard headed" as a peace offering? I know it is accurate in my own self description.;)
Hard-headed I will accept with gratitude...I'm sorry...I'm a bit touchy about the accusation of being closed-minded lately, for reasons that have nothing to do with you.

All is good:)

Let's give the devil his due, the smuggler's aren't stupid; if they were stupid, they would have been caught. They aren't going to cross at checkpoints where US Customs can search and arrest them. Frankly, the US isn't going to expend money to help Canada deal with its crime problem when the US is dealing with its own.


Except that improved border control helps the issues in BOTH countries.

Unless Canada takes proactive steps now to deal with gang-related crime, which isn't likely with the current government because all left-wing types in government do is blame others and spend money on "social projects" instead of actually arresting people who murder innocent bystanders, then Canada is going to have a problem with gangs for the next 30 years. The US is only now getting on top of its gang problem, and if Canada really wants the US to help it will consult agencies like the LAPD about how to best go about dealing with innercity crime.


First of all, as previously noted, Canada HAS been taking pro-active steps including new legislation and new task-forces designed specifically to target gangs. And despite your dig at "left-wing types" what you also fail to note is that the rise in gang violence in Toronto can be clearly linked to the removal of social programs aimed at curbing poverty-related problems in Ontario by the recent Conservative government of Ontario. The Harris system of dealing with poverty was to make it even MORE burdonsome in the hopes that this would force people to find ways up the social ladder. Of course, education grants for the poor were also eliminated at the same time.... basically his whole system catered to that mindset by some that all poverty was because that segment of the population were lazy freeloaders who deserved as little as possible.



But don't, and I mean don't, suggest that law abiding Americans who legally posses firearms have anything to do with it. American gangs and/or organized crime do, but creating more restrictive laws for firearms, and thus violating the constitution, is not the answer. If criminals had any respect for the rule of law, they wouldn't be criminals in the first place.

And no-one has ever claimed such regarding law-abiding US citizens, so your point is moot. As is your comment on Canadian domestic legislation having anything to do with "violating a constitution". Canada is NOT trying to influence US domestic laws in any way, shape, or form. We're just asking for the same type of help with security issues important to us as you ask for with respect to things important to you.

No more, no less.

Except that improved border control helps the issues in BOTH countries.



First of all, as previously noted, Canada HAS been taking pro-active steps including new legislation and new task-forces designed specifically to target gangs. And despite your dig at "left-wing types" what you also fail to note is that the rise in gang violence in Toronto can be clearly linked to the removal of social programs aimed at curbing poverty-related problems in Ontario by the recent Conservative government of Ontario. The Harris system of dealing with poverty was to make it even MORE burdonsome in the hopes that this would force people to find ways up the social ladder. Of course, education grants for the poor were also eliminated at the same time.... basically his whole system catered to that mindset by some that all poverty was because that segment of the population were lazy freeloaders who deserved as little as possible.





And no-one has ever claimed such regarding law-abiding US citizens, so your point is moot. As is your comment on Canadian domestic legislation having anything to do with "violating a constitution". Canada is NOT trying to influence US domestic laws in any way, shape, or form. We're just asking for the same type of help with security issues important to us as you ask for with respect to things important to you.

No more, no less.


Better border security is good. Better (not necessarily more) social programs also good.

Unfortunately, there have been statements made by Canadian politicians in regards to lawsuits against US firearms companies. That would be attempting to affect/influence US domestic policies IMO.

Better border security is good. Better (not necessarily more) social programs also good.

Unfortunately, there have been statements made by Canadian politicians in regards to lawsuits against US firearms companies. That would be attempting to affect/influence US domestic policies IMO.Don't worry, there won't be any lawsuits. They're talking out their collective asses. You see, there's this little thing we like to call a federal election campaign going on right now, and as you've noticed, this is one of those emotional issues that gets a lot of press and raises a party's profile for being "tough on crime" etc.

Don't worry, there won't be any lawsuits. They're talking out their collective asses. You see, there's this little thing we like to call a federal election campaign going on right now, and as you've noticed, this is one of those emotional issues that gets a lot of press and raises a party's profile for being "tough on crime" etc.

Politicians "talking out their collective asses"? No, that could never happen!

;)

Actually, if you go read the article, in its entirety, you will note that Canadian officials are suggesting that stricter firearms laws would help. To me, that's a foreign government seeking to overturn one of the original Bill of Rights just to get good press and turn attention away from their own inaction.

Also, legislation and "task forces" are meaningless. You already have laws in place, enforce them. Unless those "task forces" are arresting people for belonging to gangs, a fundamentally sound law if you ask me, then they're nothing but smoke and mirrors in the same tradition as scapegoating the US.

So, to reference the initial post, let me take the moment to reccommend a course in reading comprehension. IT might help you get over your victim complex and enable you to actually READ statements and take the correct inferences from it.


Let me also point out that this is the headline of the story I linked off CNN. Take your own advice my friend.

this is the same shit we hear all the time. Camden and New york blame PA's lax gun laws for their high crime rates, yet they can't explain why PA has less crime than them. Maybe it's because they're making themselves easy targets?

Chicago and DC have the same gripe about their surrounding area's.

Canada's gun crime is canada's fault.