NationStates Jolt Archive

I was always told how Christians are supposed to abhor killing and war. But in my time on NS it seems that there are many very serious Christians who still very much support wars in general. These are mostly Americans. Have I been brainwashed, or have I just been hanging around with too many Catholics?

The same reason many people are pro-war. As hard as it may be to swallow, not everyone has religion consume their lives, regardless of what people say.

-though I suppose this doesn't answer your question, but Christians are just like any other person. plus, I wouldn't say the Bible is 100% hippie peacenik.

I was always told how Christians are supposed to abhor killing and war.
These days a special class of Christian has developed: The Christian Patriot.
Doesn't really matter which denomination, doesn't even matter which country (although they are most common in the States) - all that matters is that they believe their own country acts in accordance with god's interests, and that opposition to one equals opposition to the other.
You can get that in different levels and different concentrations, but it all is kinda the same.

Maybe God is playing both sides.

These days a special class of Christian has developed: The Christian Patriot.
Doesn't really matter which denomination, doesn't even matter which country (although they are most common in the States) - all that matters is that they believe their own country acts in accordance with god's interests, and that opposition to one equals opposition to the other.
You can get that in different levels and different concentrations, but it all is kinda the same.
That trait is common in a lot of religions (and has been for a long time)
But yeah I agree this is the form we are seeing most currently (not really suprizing as christianity is all the rage right now)

Maybe God is playing both sides.
You mean god is bisexual?
:eek:

These days a special class of Christian has developed: The Christian Patriot.
Doesn't really matter which denomination, doesn't even matter which country (although they are most common in the States) - all that matters is that they believe their own country acts in accordance with god's interests, and that opposition to one equals opposition to the other.
You can get that in different levels and different concentrations, but it all is kinda the same.
Yeah, it's exactly that kind of thing that Europeans have learned, the hard way, to stay away from. Americans don't know it yet. To them, making an emotionalised mass movement out of patriotism and religion still seem harmless.

This thread was inspired by one poster here who is a devout Christian from the US South, who remarked that he would always fight for his country even if the government's actions were wrong. He knows who he is, so I won't name him. In my real life experience, most Christians would be hesitant to join the military in even a defensive situation, let alone situations of gratuitous warmongering.

Maybe God is playing both sides.

Simpsons.

God: "I told Joan to lead the French Army to victory."

Willy: "Hey...wait a minute! You told me to lead the English army to victory!!"

Joan (Lisa): "Lord, is this true?"

God: "Well, uh, heh, this is quite awkward. I never expected either of you to ever be in the same room...well, uh, gotta go!"

That trait is common in a lot of religions (and has been for a long time)
But yeah I agree this is the form we are seeing most currently (not really suprizing as christianity is all the rage right now)
In fairness, it's not just Christian Americans. You see the same thing in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Iran; where their people are convinced that Allah is on their side.

In fairness, it's not just Christian Americans. You see the same thing in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Iran; where their people are convinced that Allah is on their side.
Hence why I said it is a trait of a lot of religions :p that was the whole point :fluffle: :fluffle:

I think Christians are not opposed to war per se, but are supposed to abhor unjust wars and military action percieved as immoral and/or against God. If a war is considered just, they are pretty much required to support it. So, if you find Iraq a "just war", then you would religiously be compelled to support it.

You mean god is bisexual?
:eek:

Of course He is. How else could He manage that whole "I love everyone" scheme?

Of course He is. How else could He manage that whole "I love everyone" scheme?
Sweet ... then I am god like (as pertaining to sex):p :D

Why are some Christians so pro-war?Not all Christians are blood-thirsty war-freaks, take Catholics a example. Their pope want peace, not war.

I think Christians are not opposed to war per se, but are supposed to abhor unjust wars and military action percieved as immoral and/or against God. If a war is considered just, they are pretty much required to support it. So, if you find Iraq a "just war", then you would religiously be compelled to support it.

Jesus does not make exceptions. Matthew 5:38-48 is very clear:

"38 Ye have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39 but I say unto you, resist not him that is evil: but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40 And if any man would go to law with thee, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go one mile, go with him two.

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy:

44 but I say unto you, love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute you;

45 that ye may be sons of your Father who is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust.

46 For if ye love them that love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more 'than others?' do not even the Gentiles the same?

48 Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Not all Christians are blood-thirsty war-freaks, take Catholics a example. Their pope want peace, not war.
Did you even read my original post beyond the title (which, as you may note contained the word 'some')?

Did you even read my original post beyond the title (which, as you may note contained the word 'some')?oops. Sorry, I'm very lazy today. :D

since for catholics the word of the pope is like the word of god, those, who dont obey are committing sins.

since for catholics the word of the pope is like the word of god, those, who dont obey are committing sins.

The word of the Pope is not at all equivalent to the word of God to Catholics, even to the most conservative ones.

The word of the Pope is not at all equivalent to the word of God to Catholics, even to the most conservative ones.but since the first vatican concillium of the summer of 1870 the papal infallibility has been officially established. it is the basic concept, that distinguishes catholics from protestants.
even before that, if you did not obey the pope to satisfaction, you were excommunicated.

but since the first vatican concillium of the summer of 1870 the papal infallibility has been officially established. it is the basic concept, that distinguishes catholics from protestants.

The doctrine of papal infallibility does not mean that the Pope's word is equivalent to the word of God; all it means is that certain decrees of the Pope within certain contexts are infallible.

I was always told how Christians are supposed to abhor killing and war. But in my time on NS it seems that there are many very serious Christians who still very much support wars in general. These are mostly Americans. Have I been brainwashed, or have I just been hanging around with too many Catholics?


The problem in this country doesn't come from Catholics. Most American Catholics are quite liberal (at least by US standards). Where you see this is among some (not all!) evangelicals who are convinced that these are the opening shots of Armageddon. It's as much a jihad to them as it is to bin Laden.

The doctrine of papal infallibility does not mean that the Pope's word is equivalent to the word of God; all it means is that certain decrees of the Pope within certain contexts are infallible.but if the popes decrees are infallible, he has to be voicing godly wisdom, since no human could be infallible.

i am not really an expert though, we only had two classes of religion per week in high school.

I was always told how Christians are supposed to abhor killing and war. But in my time on NS it seems that there are many very serious Christians who still very much support wars in general. These are mostly Americans. Have I been brainwashed, or have I just been hanging around with too many Catholics?

Please, put down that crack pipe - the first church, along with the Church of England playing a close second, were the first two mainstream denominations to speak out against the war in Iraq, and numorous other wars in the past.

Sorry, the people you're talking about tend to be the Southern Baptists, Born agains, Evangelicals, etc. etc. Basically all the nuts that claim GWB was appointed by God and that everything he does is blessed by God.

ps. Whilst I'm giving the Southern Baptists a good bashing, not only do they appose gays but equal rights to women, as shown by their outcry when Jimmy Carter wished to have 'women' added to the phrase 'all men are created equal' as to cover 'all men and women are created equal'.

but if the popes decrees are infallible, he has to be voicing godly wisdom, since no human could be infallible.

Those particular decrees, maybe; not "the word of the Pope" per se.

but since the first vatican concillium of the summer of 1870 the papal infallibility has been officially established. it is the basic concept, that distinguishes catholics from protestants.
even before that, if you did not obey the pope to satisfaction, you were excommunicated.

The papal infallibility is only on issues of dogma, the whole idea of succession based on the idea of Peter being the foundation of the church, and that each sucessor is chosen with guidence by the holy spirit.

The Catholic/Protestant split is similar, in many ways, to the Shi'ia and Sunni split in reference to who the successor is, and on what basis.

The Catholic/Protestant split is similar, in many ways, to the Shi'ia and Sunni split in reference to who the successor is, and on what basis.

The Sadducee/Pharisee split, too.

wasnt there also that homoousios/homoiousios conflict?
i love it, when fanatics go to war over an iota.

Myself, i am a white Roman Catholic, Catholics have done terrible things in history, and so have Christians. However, i cannot agree with the Christians and pro-war statement. I dont think i (or any other white christian) could get away with saying that Islam are pro war or Jews are pro-war, but if we look at the facts all religions have the same equal amount of bloodthirstieness in thier past/present. i wont go into it but i feel the statement is unfair, as many christians i know, and my friends know are opposed to war.

I was always told how Christians are supposed to abhor killing and war. But in my time on NS it seems that there are many very serious Christians who still very much support wars in general.

It's not new. Murder is forbidden in the bible, not war. In the old testament God specifically sent people to war. You can split hairs on the difference or lack thereof between war and murder, but they are referred to as different in the bible and it is Christianlty we are discussing rather then modern debates on word meanings. More recently (in the past 2000 or so years) religion has been used as an excuse for a whole lot of war, opression, and generally nasty things (did you really think the Crusades were really Holy Wars?).

BTW - religion has also been a great focus for beauty, art, charity and a whole pile of positive things. Religion (Islam, Judeaism, Christianity, etc.) is not a bad thing. I just know from even a slight look at history that Christianity does not mean anti-war. In fact, wars are fought just for the sake of Christians striking out against some "disbeliever". Or, even worse, against other Christians with slightly different beliefs (heratics are worse than heathens to us Christians; remember the Inquisition).

Please pardon typos - I'm prone to them at the best of times :headbang:

Well, it's not news that politicians like to use patriotism and religion as a means of influencing the people. In fact it's almost the exclusive reason certain politicians have any public support. In The States, all you have to do is wave a flag or a cross in someone's face and they'll follow you right off a cliff.

I was always told how Christians are supposed to abhor killing and war. But in my time on NS it seems that there are many very serious Christians who still very much support wars in general. These are mostly Americans. Have I been brainwashed, or have I just been hanging around with too many Catholics?

War itself is no more or less morally loaded then eating, seeking shelter, fucking, etc, etc... the human drive to violence is little different then the drive to eat or any other human urge. It is merely another thing that has time and place in life, what really matters is the moral character of the people partaking. Christians generally make good soldiers and generally understand when it is necessary.

but if the popes decrees are infallible, he has to be voicing godly wisdom, since no human could be infallible.The papal infallibility is only on issues of dogma, the whole idea of succession based on the idea of Peter being the foundation of the church, and that each sucessor is chosen with guidence by the holy spirit.Yeah. It applies only to specific teachings on doctrine, not just whatever he says in conversation or what he personally thinks. For example, Ratzinger might personally believe in guardian angels, but no other Catholics are required to, even if he states his opinion publically.

On war, the state has certain moral obligations to its citizens, such as upholding their rights and protecting them from outside (and internal) threats. When these are endangered, the state must take steps to prevent damage, and this sometimes requires physical force (much the same as your personal right to defend yourself, even if you must injure or kill the antagonist). However, the state should take ALL steps to prevent war, but it retains the right to defend itself if its sovereignty is endangered, and use force to prevent the aggressor from attacking again in the future.

The state may also have the right to war if another country's people are endangered by an unjust aggressor or if the suffering of the people of a foreign state by an unjust government outweighs the harmful aspects of war.

A fuller explanation of war (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15546c.htm).


For the Iraqi war, Ratzinger has not decided whether it was just or unjust; he leaves that decision to the individual Catholic...

Sorry, the people you're talking about tend to be the Southern Baptists, Born agains, Evangelicals, etc. etc. Basically all the nuts that claim GWB was appointed by God and that everything he does is blessed by God.
you can't really make such a broad statement that "southern baptists are nuts" well, I suppose you can, but you would be wrong.

ps. Whilst I'm giving the Southern Baptists a good bashing, not only do they appose gays but equal rights to women, as shown by their outcry when Jimmy Carter wished to have 'women' added to the phrase 'all men are created equal' as to cover 'all men and women are created equal'.
do you have a source for that? because being southern baptist I got quite a different story, in fact I heard his problem was with the fact that women aren't allowed to be pastors.

Carter said the Southern Baptist Convention, which has almost 16 million members, has adopted policies "that violate the basic premises of my Christian faith," including a denominational statement that prohibits women from being pastors and tells wives to be submissive to their husbands.
from here (http://beliefnet.com/story/47/story_4798_1.html)

I don't think that there is really an equality problem in my church.

Women in Ministry

Women participate equally with men in the priesthood of all believers. Their role is crucial, their wisdom, grace and commitment exemplary. Women are an integral part of our Southern Baptist boards, faculties, mission teams, writer pools, and professional staffs. We affirm and celebrate their Great Commission impact.

While Scripture teaches that a woman's role is not identical to that of men in every respect, and that pastoral leadership is assigned to men, it also teaches that women are equal in value to men.
from Southern Baptist Website (http://sbc.net/aboutus/pswomen.asp)

you can't really make such a broad statement that "southern baptists are nuts" well, I suppose you can, but you would be wrong.

Just look internally at the bigotry that floats around - not just the official level, but at the grass roots level - the screaming for pray in schools, the millions pumped into the Republicans that could have been otherwise spent on opening Souther Baptist schools offering low cost education and a religious educaiton class teaching the particular values that Southern Baptists wish to have taught to their children.

do you have a source for that? because being southern baptist I got quite a different story, in fact I heard his problem was with the fact that women aren't allowed to be pastors.

It has nothing to with Pastors; Jimmy Cartner wanted the words in changed in the constituion to "All men and women are created equal' - it was the evangelicals and Southern Baptists who were fist to kick up a stink.

Jimmy Cartner wanted the words in changed in the constituion to "All men and women are created equal'

"All men are created equal" is from the Declaration of Independence.

Just look internally at the bigotry that floats around - not just the official level, but at the grass roots level - the screaming for pray in schools, the millions pumped into the Republicans that could have been otherwise spent on opening Souther Baptist schools offering low cost education and a religious educaiton class teaching the particular values that Southern Baptists wish to have taught to their children.
I don't know much about the grass roots stuff you are talking about. It doesn't really happen here (well, not with the Southern Baptist churches I am associated/familiar with) We are for separation of church and state, and being a tax exempt non-profit we are not allowed to "pump money" into any political party, maybe you are talking about individual southern baptists, but you aren't talking about all of us.


It has nothing to with Pastors; Jimmy Cartner wanted the words in changed in the constituion to "All men and women are created equal' - it was the evangelicals and Southern Baptists who were fist to kick up a stink.
source?

I don't know much about the grass roots stuff you are talking about. It doesn't really happen here (well, not with the Southern Baptist churches I am associated/familiar with) We are for separation of church and state, and being a tax exempt non-profit we are not allowed to "pump money" into any political party, maybe you are talking about individual southern baptists, but you aren't talking about all of us.

Interesting how non-politically political the southern baptists are when it came to same sex marriage, for example.

source?

I'll let you source it, its a well know fact, just search back through google and documentry archives.

Where do Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, etc. get most of their wealth from?

I was always told how Christians are supposed to abhor killing and war. But in my time on NS it seems that there are many very serious Christians who still very much support wars in general. These are mostly Americans. Have I been brainwashed, or have I just been hanging around with too many Catholics?
I'd venture to guess it's a little bit of both. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that pretty much all demographics [with the obvious exception of pacifists] are precisely as pro-or anti-war as any other demographic.

It just depends on what the war is being fought over. Most people end up being pro-war if their values are threatened on a national level; whether you're a 'god' nut or a 'society' nut or a 'me' nut.

Interesting how non-politically political the southern baptists are when it came to same sex marriage, for example.
The southern baptist convention is non-political. We can make statements about what we believe is right or wrong, but are not allowed to become politically involved as a convention, it's against tax law. Even individual churches aren't allowed to do that. You must be talking about individual people.

I'll let you source it, its a well know fact, just search back through google and documentry archives.
you know what? I tried to. All I can find is reference to his problems with the SBC not letting women be pastors or deacons. I can't find anything about what you are talking about. You need to provide me with a source.

Where do Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, etc. get most of their wealth from?

From idiots who believe...

"I am being told by god that some where in Texas there is a person with a sore leg.....yes, a sore leg, and it has caused much pain.....they wish for it to go away" and of course, going by basic laws of probability, of course there is going to be a person in Texas with a sore bloody leg! just look at the population and how broad his description of the individual - hell, it could be atleast 100 people in the state with those symptons.

One of those nuts ring in, say, "i'm that person', they vet it down to the one person who says that "brother Pat/Jerry/etc is touched by the holy spirit' and voila, more ignorant saps willing to purchase taps, cds, and other paraphernalia.

These days a special class of Christian has developed: The Christian Patriot.
Doesn't really matter which denomination, doesn't even matter which country (although they are most common in the States) - all that matters is that they believe their own country acts in accordance with god's interests, and that opposition to one equals opposition to the other.
You can get that in different levels and different concentrations, but it all is kinda the same.

Gee, and here I had thought I was cynical.

I think Christians are not opposed to war per se, but are supposed to abhor unjust wars and military action percieved as immoral and/or against God. If a war is considered just, they are pretty much required to support it. So, if you find Iraq a "just war", then you would religiously be compelled to support it.
I imagine you'd have a tough time coming up with a doctrine for a just war based on the teachings of Jesus alone. Doctrines for just war exist, at least in the Catholic Church, but they are definitely not taken from the teachings of Jesus.