NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4555298.stm
Europe's global satellite-navigation system, Galileo, comes a step nearer on Wednesday with the launch of its first demonstrator spacecraft.
...
It also has the job of securing the radio frequencies allocated to the project under international agreements.

This requires Giove-A to transmit a sat-nav signal of the correct structure from orbit within the next six months. The SSTL team hopes to do it within a matter of days.

This is starting to come along. It's something of a prestige project, but it also has very practical purposes.
GPS is a US Military system, and as such the US Military has reserved the right to basically shut down the system if they want to.

The Galileo system would be civilian-based (but used by a number of militaries as well - like the Chinese), and it also covers areas that GPS has problems with at the moment, like Scandinavia.

What do you think of the project?

http://europa.eu.int/comm/dgs/energy_transport/galileo/index_en.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GALILEO_positioning_system

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4555298.stm


This is starting to come along. It's something of a prestige project, but it also has very practical purposes.
GPS is a US Military system, and as such the US Military has reserved the right to basically shut down the system if they want to.

The Galileo system would be civilian-based (but used by a number of militaries as well - like the Chinese), and it also covers areas that GPS has problems with at the moment, like Scandinavia.

What do you think of the project?

http://europa.eu.int/comm/dgs/energy_transport/galileo/index_en.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GALILEO_positioning_system

Hopefully there are safeguards to shut a military out if it is using the thing against a European country. But I'm sure the Chinese would never think to attack a European asset. ;)

Also would the US have the right to "take it out" if it were being used by a hostile nation against the US?

Hopefully there are safeguards to shut a military out if it is using the thing against a European country. But I'm sure the Chinese would never think to attack a European asset. ;)
The Chinese own a part of it.

Also would the US have the right to "take it out" if it were being used by a hostile nation against the US?
I don't think it'd be okay to attack European installations because the US is fighting a war somewhere.

We could request that that hostile nation be shut out of the system, but we probably couldn't blast it out of the sky.

I mean, on a technical level, in a few years, ya, we'd be capable. But, given the diplomatic issues and economic (I'm betting a few American firms are tied into this too), I'd say it would be in our best interest not to.

Why does GPS currently have difficulties in Scandinavia?

Why does GPS currently have difficulties in Scandinavia?
No idea really, it says it on Wiki.
Improved coverage of satellite signals at higher latitudes, which northern regions such as Scandinavia will benefit from.
I guess it's the angle the current GPS satellites are going.

the european gps system had been in the planing since before 2000, the us gps works with somewhere upwards of 2 dozzen satellites. if this is the first european saellite and the europeans keep putting their sats in orbit at this pace, requiring as many as the us system, they will have their system operational not before 100 years from now.

the european gps system had been in the planing since before 2000, the us gps works with somewhere upwards of 2 dozzen satellites. if this is the first european saellite and the europeans keep putting their sats in orbit at this pace, requiring as many as the us system, they will have their system operational not before 100 years from now.
2010 is the planned date.

This is a prototype satellite, which has to test a number of vital features before they'll be shot up en masse. And it's one of the very few satellites that have been shot up into a particularly raditiation-prone orbital height.

There's gonna be a second test satellite later, and if all that works, then they're gonna shoot up the real deal.

EDIT: Plus, the time it took for the thing to be built was quite short. It's an experimental thing, and it took three years from first sketch to the launch.

No idea really, it says it on Wiki.

I guess it's the angle the current GPS satellites are going.

Makes sense, I guess. If their orbits don't go that far north, it would be difficult to accurately locate that sort of thing. Probably has a bit of trouble in the south Pacific and such as well.

Actually, once they get the first one up and the program in full swing, productivity should see an exponential growth.

Look at our space program once we got John Glenn up there.

Why does GPS currently have difficulties in Scandinavia?
Great news, great thread... but I'm majorally lost! This might be the last transmission I get through... from the great white...


No, my phone knows where I am... For some reason GPS is not to be trusted in Lappland. I wonder why... one would think this is the easiest terrain to map from 100km...

magnetic poles perhaps?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4555298.stm


This is starting to come along. It's something of a prestige project, but it also has very practical purposes.
GPS is a US Military system, and as such the US Military has reserved the right to basically shut down the system if they want to.

The Galileo system would be civilian-based (but used by a number of militaries as well - like the Chinese), and it also covers areas that GPS has problems with at the moment, like Scandinavia.

What do you think of the project?

http://europa.eu.int/comm/dgs/energy_transport/galileo/index_en.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GALILEO_positioning_system

EU is gonna let the Chinese Military use Galileo? Dumbasses......

Well now the EU can look on with pride as Galileo guided missiles hit Tawain.

The Chinese own a part of it.

That's reassuring.


I don't think it'd be okay to attack European installations because the US is fighting a war somewhere.

If the US is getting rained down upon with GPS munitions I would like to believe the US would either jam that system or take it out completely. Regardless of where the system was based. An ally is not an ally if it is helping your enemy.

EU is gonna let the Chinese Military use Galileo? Dumbasses......
They paid a lot of money. A lot of money is what makes the world go round, my capitalist friend. ;)

Well now the EU can look on with pride as Galileo guided missiles hit Tawain.
Yeah, fat chance.
China is not going to attack Taiwan. Period.

If the US is getting rained down upon with GPS munitions I would like to believe the US would either jam that system or take it out completely. Regardless of where the system was based. An ally is not an ally if it is helping your enemy.
Perhaps not, but it's not necessarily your enemy either.
The EU would likely stay neutral, afterall, European weaponry and other stuff features in the US Army as well.
And ICBMs don't really need GPS, they can still hit a city with enough accuracy with other systems.

They paid a lot of money. A lot of money is what makes the world go round, my capitalist friend. ;)

Unfortunately yes this is true.


Yeah, fat chance.
China is not going to attack Taiwan. Period.

Hope you I are right on this one. All hell will break loose if this one transpires.

magnetic poles perhaps?
Oh! The Poles!
The Magnetic north pole travels... a lot. As do I... currently.

More people working on the technology is better, I guess, and having the Chinese participate in a system controlled by multiple nations is a lot better than them launching their own satellites.

Perhaps not, but it's not necessarily your enemy either.
The EU would likely stay neutral, afterall, European weaponry and other stuff features in the US Army as well.
And ICBMs don't really need GPS, they can still hit a city with enough accuracy with other systems.

Well wasn't eluding to ICBM's. That is a different subject. However I would think that a China-US war (Hopefully it does not happen) would likely drag Nato countries into the fray. It would be unlikely that the US would attack China first. I would think that if it was going to happen that China would make a pre-emptive strike on Hawaii or Guam as the Japanese did in WWII.

Hence if that happened all trade routes would be cut for China and it would be disabled by lack of using the GPS and the supplies it needs for its war machine. Which would be a basis of an arguement that China would not attack the US or European assets. So maybe all the conteplating is for naught.

Yeah, fat chance.
China is not going to attack Taiwan. Period.What did you say in 1990?
Iraq is not going to invade Kuwait. Period.

Oh! The Poles!
The Magnetic north pole travels... a lot. As do I... currently.



Well.....the Scandanavian countries are so far north....and....cuz the satelites......and......SHUT UP JERK.


China doesn't want to pummel Taiwan, they want to annex them. ICBMs would defeat this goal.

SHUT UP JERK.
I shall Treasure that. Thank You.

What did you say in 1990?
Iraq is not going to invade Kuwait. Period.
No, actually, I was saying something like: "I want my Juice!"

That Iraq wasn't going to attack Kuwait wasn't even believed by its neighbours. The only people who actually believed it were the US Leadership (until he asked and they gave him the okay, that is).

So tell me, what does China have to gain from attacking Taiwan?

That's reassuring.



If the US is getting rained down upon with GPS munitions I would like to believe the US would either jam that system or take it out completely. Regardless of where the system was based. An ally is not an ally if it is helping your enemy.
Does Europe have the ability to take out the GPS system if it is getting attacked?

How do you think the US would feel if Europe started wide scale jamming of gps?

So tell me, what does China have to gain from attacking Taiwan?a removal of the constant challenge to the leadershipposition of the chairman of the central committee of the communist party, a silencing of uncensored chinese radio and TV broadcasts from the island. and if the chicoms dont reign in that rogue democratic islands, their own people could become unruly and begin to demand something like "freedom".

what are they gaining from keeping Tibet occupied anyway?

a removal of the constant challenge to the leadershipposition of the chairman of the central committee of the communist party
There is no challenge from Taiwan. No one in China, or overseas, actually takes the remnants of the Nationalists seriously as leadership candidates for the PRC.

a silencing of uncensored chinese radio and TV broadcasts from the island.
Provided many mainland Chinese actually watch those - you might have realised that the media is no longer that hardcore censored in China as it once was.
And what about Hong Kong - one would think media critical of the government would be easier to get from there than from Taiwan.

and if the chicoms dont reign in that rogue democratic islands, their own people could become unruly and begin to demand something like "freedom".
Hong Kong again.

what are they gaining from keeping Tibet occupied anyway?
Not all that much - although they are turning the place into something of an economic powerhouse these days.

But what you did not consider is that
a) An attack would be very difficult, the Chinese know their navy is not capable of landing a quick and easy invasion, Americans or not.
b) It would most certainly draw in the Americans, which means that an invasion will become pretty much impossible, and currently they'd lose such a war.
c) Their economy needs the orders from overseas, and those depend on good relations.
d) All the Chinese ever said they wanted was that Taiwan didn't go the next step and declare themselves completely sovereign.

magnetic poles perhaps?

No. The poles do not interfere with the GPS signals.

EU is gonna let the Chinese Military use Galileo? Dumbasses......

Well now the EU can look on with pride as Galileo guided missiles hit Tawain.

Anyone will be able to use the signal, just like anyone can use the American GPS. The difference is the US military can fiddle with the accuracy of the GPS system in two ways; first, they can turn off or turn on selective availability. That makes the system either more or less accurate for civilian users but maintains the accuracy for the military. Secondly, the US can "lie" to the system in such a way it can make a receiver think Washington DC is Beijing. So, if an enemy launched a missile against the US using GPS for navigation the military could make the missile think some other place was the target.

GPS was designed primarily as a military system and like many military systems was converted to civilian use. The European system is designed as a civilian system especially for aircraft navigation.

Oh, you all forgot the Russians have the GLONAS satellite system which it similar to but not compatible with GPS. Europe doesn't want to rely on it for aircraft navigation either because the Russian military controls it and they can diddle with it just like the US military can diddle with GPS. A third system will be great and enhance the accuracy of aircraft navigation systems. Although the GPS system with WAAS is accurate down to a few feet, and can be used for precision landing of aircraft WAAS is not available in Europe.

I shall Treasure that. Thank You.


Glad to be of service.

Anyone will be able to use the signal, just like anyone can use the American GPS. The difference is the US military can fiddle with the accuracy of the GPS system in two ways; first, they can turn off or turn on selective availability. That makes the system either more or less accurate for civilian users but maintains the accuracy for the military. Secondly, the US can "lie" to the system in such a way it can make a receiver think Washington DC is Beijing. So, if an enemy launched a missile against the US using GPS for navigation the military could make the missile think some other place was the target.

GPS was designed primarily as a military system and like many military systems was converted to civilian use. The European system is designed as a civilian system especially for aircraft navigation.

I understand that it is mainly a civilian system, but still do you think it would look good for the EU if China did attack Tawain with missiles (not nuclear ones, just to be clear) guided by Galileo? Of course the missiles would still hit without Galileo but that is not the point, the point is that they have the potential to be guided by a EU built system.

...the point is that they have the potential to be guided by a EU built system.
But what is the problem? Do you have any idea how much US military technology comes from European companies?
It's an apolitical, primarily civilian alternative to systems of which the accuracy is not guaranteed during times of war.

But what is the problem? Do you have any idea how much US military technology comes from European companies?
It's an apolitical, primarily civilian alternative to systems of which the accuracy is not guaranteed during times of war.

The problem is that Galileo could be used by China to attack a democratic nation, Tawain. To me, that is a very big problem.

The problem is that Galileo could be used by China to attack a democratic nation, Tawain. To me, that is a very big problem.
So could the invention of the microwave for that matter.
The program is not meant to be a military thing, and there obviously is a need for an alternative to GPS. I don't quite know how you could argue against this program, given that the concern is an unlikely possible future confrontation in which Galileo could play a relatively small part.

Also would the US have the right to "take it out" if it were being used by a hostile nation against the US?

Might gives right.

The problem is that Galileo could be used by China to attack a democratic nation, Tawain. To me, that is a very big problem.

If China bought an atlas, would you immediately jump to the conclusion that it would or could be used as part of an invasion plan?

Oh, and it's Taiwan. Not Tawain.

Also would the US have the right to "take it out" if it were being used by a hostile nation against the US?Doesn't matter whether they have the right or not, they'd do it anyway.

Doesn't matter whether they have the right or not, they'd do it anyway.
Correct.

Yes saw it on BBC Breakfast

The problem is that Galileo could be used by China to attack a democratic nation, Tawain. To me, that is a very big problem.If they wanted to use a satellite guided system, they could use GPS and attack before anyone has the time to cut them off from the signal. It's not like they're going to announce it and give people time to react in a timely fashion.

The problem is that Galileo could be used by China to attack a democratic nation, Tawain. To me, that is a very big problem.
Too bad ... deal

Europe is tired of having to deal with US controll of the GPS system ... and rightfully so

They are a position to do something about it legaly
So they are

Well now the EU can look on with pride as Galileo guided missiles hit Tawain.

Them Chinoese are juts mopin up some Taiawanesian jihaduistic teerurist. No probmle ehre!

All I got to say:

:D

Does Europe have the ability to take out the GPS system if it is getting attacked?

How do you think the US would feel if Europe started wide scale jamming of gps?
GPS signals are very weak. That makes them very easy to jam. Same is true of most satellite signals in that band. I suspect Galileo would also be easy to jam.

I suspect that jamming GPS signals would be tantamount to firing the first shot in a war. So much navigation depends on GPS, that jamming these signals would be very disruptive.

Too bad ... deal

Europe is tired of having to deal with US controll of the GPS system ... and rightfully so

They are a position to do something about it legaly
So they are
GPS is free, accurate, and reliable. What is the burden that Europe has suffered?

What kind of license or usage fees does the EU plan?

Too bad ... deal

Europe is tired of having to deal with US controll of the GPS system ... and rightfully so

They are a position to do something about it legaly
So they are
GPS is free, accurate, and reliable. What is the burden that Europe has suffered? The 'Not Invented Here' syndrome? GPS is the backbone of civil navigation in the US. The odds of having the military shut it off capriciously are nil. The odds of completely killing it in wartime are small. That's the advantage of dithering the time -- accuracy can be deterministically controlled.

What kind of license or usage fees does the EU plan?

GPS is free, accurate, and reliable. What is the burden that Europe has suffered? The 'Not Invented Here' syndrome? GPS is the backbone of civil navigation in the US. The odds of having the military shut it off capriciously are nil. The odds of completely killing it in wartime are small. That's the advantage of dithering the time -- accuracy can be deterministically controlled.

What kind of license or usage fees does the EU plan?
Burden? how about relying on a system that they have no controll over

GPS may be a decent system but I would not want to trust my millitary being dependent on it when the nation controlling it (not me) has the ability to change things any time they please

You have to plan for the un-likley

And the system does not have to be compleatly killed to make it useless to them (at least in some respects) if they depend on it for millitary wepon guidence I would not want a forign power to have the ability to turn down my wepons acuracy

Burden? how about relying on a system that they have no controll over

GPS may be a decent system but I would not want to trust my millitary being dependent on it when the nation controlling it (not me) has the ability to change things any time they please

You have to plan for the un-likley

And the system does not have to be compleatly killed to make it useless to them (at least in some respects) if they depend on it for millitary wepon guidence I would not want a forign power to have the ability to turn down my wepons acuracy
So your only objection to the military control of GPS is that it hinders weapons navigation by non-US powers.

It appeared to me that the Europeans had intended their Galileo system to be designed for aircraft navigation. I wondered, and still do, how they are going to license the use of the system.

So your only objection to the military control of GPS is that it hinders weapons navigation by non-US powers.

It appeared to me that the Europeans had intended their Galileo system to be designed for aircraft navigation. I wondered, and still do, how they are going to license the use of the system.
No that was just a point ... Its not a problem I have with the system

The us millitary designed and built the GPS system ... we should absolutly have the ability to controll it

I was just pointing out that others may find it a bit stupid to rely on that system we control therefore they are building their own
Seems like a fairly logical step by them to me.

I mean if europe had full control over something like the GPS system I could not see the US sitting quietly by puting absolute faith in the system they control, we would build our own system.

What do you think of the project?
Nothing like spending billions on a collective ego trip. :rolleyes:

In technology wise, the rest of the world are catching up to the US, but who knows how many more outstanding gadgets the US military might have?

Nothing like spending billions on a collective ego trip. :rolleyes:
Yeah the us has never done that:p

Nothing like spending billions on a collective ego trip. :rolleyes:

And the race to put a man on the moon wasn't anything more than a glorified "my rocket is bigger than your rocket" contest?

Great news, great thread... but I'm majorally lost! This might be the last transmission I get through... from the great white...


No, my phone knows where I am... For some reason GPS is not to be trusted in Lappland. I wonder why... one would think this is the easiest terrain to map from 100km...
I think it is the radition from Rudolf the reindeer's magic red nose. It interferes with the signel. ;)

GPS is not so accurate in northern Norrland also, even before you get to Lappland.

Nothing like spending billions on a collective ego trip. :rolleyes:

Star Wars?

GPS is free, accurate, and reliable. What is the burden that Europe has suffered? The 'Not Invented Here' syndrome? GPS is the backbone of civil navigation in the US. The odds of having the military shut it off capriciously are nil. The odds of completely killing it in wartime are small. That's the advantage of dithering the time -- accuracy can be deterministically controlled.

What kind of license or usage fees does the EU plan?
The license fees are only for the more accurate services with more features. There will be free access to the basic level service, which will give positioning to the nearest metre.

Galileo is more advanced in what it offers than the US GPS system. Although, I believe that USA is planning to upgrade GPS soon.

Star Wars?
Or the whole man on the moon race thing
While I love the idea of space exploration the money they sank into that project just to "beat" the russians is stagering

And the race to put a man on the moon wasn't anything more than a glorified "my rocket is bigger than your rocket" contest?
Wow ... I used the same example
We think alike lol:fluffle:

I understand that it is mainly a civilian system, but still do you think it would look good for the EU if China did attack Tawain with missiles (not nuclear ones, just to be clear) guided by Galileo? Of course the missiles would still hit without Galileo but that is not the point, the point is that they have the potential to be guided by a EU built system.

This is something of a strawman, really...

"do you think it would look good if China did attack Taiwan, with missiles, guided by maps"?

While I think about it.... it could be argued that the use of 'powered' missiles (of ANY kind) is based on ancient Chinese technology...

GPS is free, accurate, and reliable. What is the burden that Europe has suffered?


Maybe it's the simple fact that the US can no longer be trusted to respect European perspectives on the world stage?

I'd imagine there are a lot of people feeling pretty worried about that... and the fact that the US seems to think it's okay to just roll tanks into any country that they decide has offended them.

Star Wars?
SDI broke the back of the Soviet Union. They spent gazillions of rubles trying to defend against it. I think that was a pretty darned cost-effective way to be at 'war' with an adversary.

Maybe it's the simple fact that the US can no longer be trusted to respect European perspectives on the world stage?

I'd imagine there are a lot of people feeling pretty worried about that... and the fact that the US seems to think it's okay to just roll tanks into any country that they decide has offended them.

Well, that's not so much my worry, but I suppose it's always worth remembering. Witness Eut's justification of US interests served by stealing/blowing up Bolivian military hardware.

No, I think it's also worth remembering that US world hegemony isn't going to last forever; it's as well we in th EU 'keep our hand in' as it were so we're better able to survive in a post-USuperpower world.

Elgesh']Well, that's not so much my worry, but I suppose it's always worth remembering. Witness Eut's justification of US interests served by stealing/blowing up Bolivian military hardware.

No, I think it's also worth remembering that US world hegemony isn't going to last forever; it's as well we in th EU 'keep our hand in' as it were so we're better able to survive in a post-USuperpower world.

And, being realistic, China is the Next Big Thing, if anyone is... so they are the market to be dealing with.

And, being realistic, China is the Next Big Thing, if anyone is... so they are the market to be dealing with.
I happily abstain from arguments over finance and economics - it's a closed, dull, dusty book to me - but I happily take your word for it. I still think of the chinese government as being wicked beyond belief though; but morality over economic gain? In a capitalist framework? How absurd...:rolleyes:

Yay!!! Is it possible for one to invest in this program? Such as this person living in New Jersey.

Elgesh']I happily abstain from arguments over finance and economics - it's a closed, dull, dusty book to me - but I happily take your word for it. I still think of the chinese government as being wicked beyond belief though; but morality over economic gain? In a capitalist framework? How absurd...:rolleyes:

Who ever heard of such a thing, yes?

Is the Chinese government 'wicked'? Or... is it just what is needed to govern a billion or more people.

I disagree with some elements of China's 'human rights' record... but at least they are honest about it. UN inspectors were allowed 'in' to check on allegations of torture... the US has refused to allow identical investigation.

Is the Chinese government 'wicked'? Or... is it just what is needed to govern a billion or more people.

I am sure that there are better ways of governing a billion or more people than forcibly killing foetuses, running "re-education" camps for dissenters a la gulag, settling Han Chinese in Tibet to the extent that Tibetans are a minority in Tibet and extermination of Tibetan culture, forcibly relocating and demolition of the homes of peasants in the name of development etc. You don't have to look far. There is a neighbouring country called India which also has a billion or more people and is also bent upon development but has not resorted to the denial of political rights and abuse of human rights that the Chi-commies have been perpetrating on the people of China.


I disagree with some elements of China's 'human rights' record... but at least they are honest about it. UN inspectors were allowed 'in' to check on allegations of torture... the US has refused to allow identical investigation.

China allows and shows only what they want to show. We don't even know the full extent of the abuses that are going on.

I am sure that there are better ways of governing a billion or more people than forcibly killing foetuses, running "re-education" camps for dissenters a la gulag, settling Han Chinese in Tibet to the extent that Tibetans are a minority in Tibet and extermination of Tibetan culture, forcibly relocating and demolition of the homes of peasants in the name of development etc. You don't have to look far. There is a neighbouring country called India which also has a billion or more people and is also bent upon development but has not resorted to the denial of political rights and abuse of human rights that the Chi-commies have been perpetrating on the people of China.


Yes, India has a similar population scale, and similar aspirations of becoming a real world player.... but there are so many differences - much lower infant mortality in China being one (obviously, this could be argued as connected to abortion practises, but we are talking about full-term here), much higher average age (almost exactly a third of India's population being 'minors'), MUCH lower mortality due to disease, MUCH lower infection by disease.

Perhaps there is something to be said, then, for the Chinese model?

In terms of contested territory, one CAN point to China and Tibet... but one can also point to India and Kashmir, or (for example) Israel and ANY of it's contested territories.

Also - you say 'abortion' like it is a bad thing. With a population of almost 1.5 billion, even WITH a huge land area, it could be argued that a policy of abortion is just being RESPONSIBLE.


China allows and shows only what they want to show. We don't even know the full extent of the abuses that are going on.

But, the point is, even though the UN inspectors say they suspect there may have been some 'tampering', China DID let the inspectors in. If one looks at the so-called good-guys in the human rights arena (i.e. the US), they have failed to even match the China model.

Also - you say 'abortion' like it is a bad thing. With a population of almost 1.5 billion, even WITH a huge land area, it could be argued that a policy of abortion is just being RESPONSIBLE.
.
I think he's pointing to both the policy and the methods (including late term abortions and the infamous formaldahyde-to-the-living-brain technicque) of abortion said to be practised by the Chinese state...?

In any event, I feel we're wondering off-topic, but I suppose the sovreign right to build and market a good goes hhand in hand with the right to sell to whomever you like, ultimately.

Who ever heard of such a thing, yes?

Is the Chinese government 'wicked'? Or... is it just what is needed to govern a billion or more people.

I disagree with some elements of China's 'human rights' record... but at least they are honest about it. UN inspectors were allowed 'in' to check on allegations of torture... the US has refused to allow identical investigation.

Well there is the freedom of speech and religion issue as well.

Yes, India has a similar population scale, and similar aspirations of becoming a real world player.... but there are so many differences - much lower infant mortality in China being one (obviously, this could be argued as connected to abortion practises, but we are talking about full-term here), much higher average age (almost exactly a third of India's population being 'minors'), MUCH lower mortality due to disease, MUCH lower infection by disease.

Perhaps there is something to be said, then, for the Chinese model?

In terms of contested territory, one CAN point to China and Tibet... but one can also point to India and Kashmir, or (for example) Israel and ANY of it's contested territories.

Also - you say 'abortion' like it is a bad thing. With a population of almost 1.5 billion, even WITH a huge land area, it could be argued that a policy of abortion is just being RESPONSIBLE.

We are going seriously OT, but WTH.

India's approach to population control is multi-faceted. Increasing awareness, making available free contraceptives, improving quality of life and making people want to have lesser kids..etc.

Population has stabilised in the riches southern states and the North-western states. Only in the Gangetic plains states populaiton has not stabilised and it is projected that there too it will stabilize as the improving economy will allow the govt to spend more in that area.

I would argue that this is a humane approach than forcibly injecting chemicals into unborn foetuses and killing them.

Your comparision of Kashmir to Tibet (apart from being an unwarranted comparision) is not even like apples to oranges. It is like apples to black shoes.

Tibet has a history of existing as a nation and Tibet WAS an autonomous reigon recognized as a buffer state between India and China. Tibet was overran by Mao.

Kashmir has always been part of Indian civilization and Kashmir acceded to India and only then did Indian forces entered Kashmir. This accession was ratified by the first elected assembly of Kashmir and the more than 50-60% turnout at elections indicate the people' faith in the union.

To address the main point of cultural extermination done by the Chinese,

As I mentioned above, ethnic Tibetans are a minority in Tibet, thanks to the settlement of Han Chinese. Tibetan culture, language, religion and customs are being stifled.

In Kashmir, thanks to article 370 of the Indian constitution, no non-Kashmiri can buy property in Kashmir. I cannot become a Kashmiri resident, even if I get married to a Kashmiri girl. Kashmir is one of the most autonomous states in the Indian union. Apart from security, the central govt has little to no interference on how the state is run.

There is no comparision.

Well there is the freedom of speech and religion issue as well.

And, fifty years ago, it was considered a radical act when a frail little black woman refused to yeild her seat to the obviously superior white male.

Thus, America is wicked.... and so are Christian nations, white people and capitalism.

We are going seriously OT, but WTH.

India's approach to population control is multi-faceted. Increasing awareness, making available free contraceptives, improving quality of life and making people want to have lesser kids..etc.

Population has stabilised in the riches southern states and the North-western states. Only in the Gangetic plains states populaiton has not stabilised and it is projected that there too it will stabilize as the improving economy will allow the govt to spend more in that area.

I would argue that this is a humane approach than forcibly injecting chemicals into unborn foetuses and killing them.

Your comparision of Kashmir to Tibet (apart from being an unwarranted comparision) is not even like apples to oranges. It is like apples to black shoes.

Tibet has a history of existing as a nation and Tibet WAS an autonomous reigon recognized as a buffer state between India and China. Tibet was overran by Mao.

Kashmir has always been part of Indian civilization and Kashmir acceded to India and only then did Indian forces entered Kashmir. This accession was ratified by the first elected assembly of Kashmir and the more than 50-60% turnout at elections indicate the people' faith in the union.

To address the main point of cultural extermination done by the Chinese,

As I mentioned above, ethnic Tibetans are a minority in Tibet, thanks to the settlement of Han Chinese. Tibetan culture, language, religion and customs are being stifled.

In Kashmir, thanks to article 370 of the Indian constitution, no non-Kashmiri can buy property in Kashmir. I cannot become a Kashmiri resident, even if I get married to a Kashmiri girl. Kashmir is one of the most autonomous states in the Indian union. Apart from security, the central govt has little to no interference on how the state is run.

There is no comparision.

On the contrary - both are contested territories... and, even if 60% of Kashmiris DO want it to be contested, that means 40% don't.

I'm not saying that they are identical situations, because, obviously, they are not. But, neither situation has been the exchanges of blossoms and kittens.

Is allowing children to be born, live in squalour, then die of some (tragically, probably really avoidable) disease.... actually more 'humane' than an abortion?

I would argue the contrary. A foetus that never becomes the child who dies of bacterial diarrhea, is actually the entity 'suffering less'.

Especially when you bear in mind that, as a nation, India has an almost 6% mortality rate. (Twice that of China).

Regarding Tibet - yes, the Han outnumber 'natives'... but that is hardly surprising, when nine-tenths of ALL Chinese are Han. It only takes a few settlers to skew the figures, when the 'native' population is so low, and the 'ethnic' weighting of the Chinese is so high. It might also have something to do, of course, with the fact that 100,000 Tibetans no longer live in Tibet.

It's a pretty weak complaint to say you are outnumbered on your home soil... when you are not ON your home soil....

I think the point of the topic digression, was that China is on it's way to being the next superpower. I've argued that China's internal politics are, maybe, China's business... and, just maybe, the best way to handle such a huge population, in THAT geography. I don't see anything here that makes me consider China any LESS likely to be the next 'superpower'.

A war between the US and China would be far to costly for everyone. China as the man power. The US has its superior technology. What is left of the world would be very little. Because if the two biggest super powers entered war all the other hostilities would flare. India and Pakistan would nuke each other. The middle east would burn. Pretty much WW3.

What would be a good idea for the US and China to become close allies and conquer the rest of the world and divide it between them. ^.^

A war between the US and China would be far to costly for everyone. China as the man power. The US has its superior technology. What is left of the world would be very little. Because if the two biggest super powers entered war all the other hostilities would flare. India and Pakistan would nuke each other. The middle east would burn. Pretty much WW3.

What would be a good idea for the US and China to become close allies and conquer the rest of the world and divide it between them. ^.^
Which point, hurray!!!, takes us back on-topic! Another reason for the EU to develop its alternative to the US GPS, is as part of a drive to become a power in line with China, Russia, a post-superpower-USA and India - essentially, a return to the old days of the 3/5 Great Powers seems increasingly plausable, in which case I'd actually find myself supporting the notion of a political EU, providing it was democritised and made accountable to the voters.

huh. How'd you turn a ' Europe's GPS Alternative' thread into a 'war between the US and China' thread so fast?

huh. How'd you turn a ' Europe's GPS Alternative' thread into a 'war between the US and China' thread so fast?

Hey, this is it _back_ on topic! It could be even further offcourse!

Actually, as a prestige/utiliatarian project, it makes sense to at least touch on the possibility of future global conflicts (not necc. military, but inclluding them) when discussing the euro-galileo gps.

On the contrary - both are contested territories... and, even if 60% of Kashmiris DO want it to be contested, that means 40% don't.

Last post. I will also let you have the last word.

I think you mean 60% don't contest it.

Anywayz, there would be more participation if not for the intimidation by the jihadis. Please remember that the "contest" is primarily raised by Pakistan. Except Hizbul-Mujahideen, all the other "freedom-fighting" orgs like Jaish-e-Mohammed, Lashkar-e-Toiba, Harkat-ul-Mujahideen, Al-Badr et are Pakistan based. Their leaders are based in Pakistan, their funds come from Pakistan, their arms and training come from Pakistan, their cadre are Pakistani . It is a great PR con job that Pakistan has pulled off that terrorism in Kashmir is indigeneous.

The idea that Pakistan (which itself is military ruled) calling for self-determination to Kashmir (and only the part in India, not the part occupied by them) is such a ridiculous one that it has no takers in India and informed folks around the world.

That well-meaning folks like you are taken in by Pakistani propoganda shows how successful the propoganda has been. But I digress. Suffice it to say that there is no comparision between Kashmir and Tibet. One was accession which has the sanction of the majority of Kashmiris and the other was annexation and the legitimate aspirations of the Tibetan people are still being trampled with.


Is allowing children to be born, live in squalour, then die of some (tragically, probably really avoidable) disease.... actually more 'humane' than an abortion?

Well it depends.

Many a people born in squalor have made it good. I was born in squalor. I went hungry to bed in my childhood. I would not be alive if some dictatorship thought that I would be better off dead before birth than having the chance to experience and dare I say enjoy life and make good of what I was given with.

It might also have something to do, of course, with the fact that 100,000 Tibetans no longer live in Tibet.


They fled Tibet and now live in Dharamsala, India. In squalor. Per your argument, would it have been more humane of India to catch them and kill them too?

I am sorry if I sound harsh. I have been to Dharamsala and had the opportunity to talk to many Tibetans, including a group which trekked for about 2 months with the last 2 weeks on no food except a few forest pickings. They had a 8 year old boy and a 4 year old girl. The girl child died on the way but the family carried the dead body and buried her in Nepal. I can only imagine the trauma of carrying a dead daughter in the wilderness and leaving ancestral home knowing that they can never come back again...and facing an uncertain future in India...

So excuse me if I am cynical of the "One China" BS that the PRC commies spout.

I've argued that China's internal politics are, maybe, China's business... and, just maybe, the best way to handle such a huge population, in THAT geography.

Maybe on purely internal politics. But what happens in Tibet is not internal.

Maybe it's the simple fact that the US can no longer be trusted to respect European perspectives on the world stage?
I think that has to be a factor.

You can't imagine how much this recent CIA thing made me lose faith in the US. They decided that they are going to live like the hegemon, they have disregarded everything that used to matter to America, and instead created this new country, where the rhetoric is the same, but everything else has changed.

So I think the time of the "Western World" alliance between Europe and the US has reached its end. I for one wouldn't have wanted it to end this way, but, alas, that decision has been made in the White House.

I think that has to be a factor...

So I think the time of the "Western World" alliance between Europe and the US has reached its end. I for one wouldn't have wanted it to end this way, but, alas, that decision has been made in the White House.
I think that's probably a bit melodramatic - there's still much more in common than divides, and 1 dickheaded presidency does not destroy cultural similarities and political cooperation overnight. But the various Bush debacles, and the processes that have simply _occured during_ his time in office _does_ remind you that no power stays preeminent forever. The USA is still the sole superpower, but that won't be the case for ever. No, it's a wakeup call, and I wonder if we're reentering the time of Great Powers again; in which case, yes, things like the EU's Galileo program deserve our support - we need to start repositioning ourselves.

If I was _convinced_ of this argument rather than just interested by it, I'd be converted into a euro-federalist, I think :)

Elgesh']I think that's probably a bit melodramatic - there's still much more in common than divides, and 1 dickheaded presidency does not destroy cultural similarities and political cooperation overnight. But the various Bush debacles, and the processes that have simply _occured during_ his time in office _does_ remind you that no power stays preeminent forever. The USA is still the sole superpower, but that won't be the case for ever. No, it's a wakeup call, and I wonder if we're reentering the time of Great Powers again; in which case, yes, things like the EU's Galileo program deserve our support - we need to start repositioning ourselves.

If I was _convinced_ of this argument rather than just interested by it, I'd be converted into a euro-federalist, I think :)

I think the thing is, as Neu Leonstein mentioned.... Europe just can't trust the US anymore.

Europe can't trust the US, even on European soil... because of recent problems like Black Sites.

Hell, even the US citizens can no longer trust their OWN government... because - YES, it is one president that has decided civil freedoms are optional... BUT, the US government has basically let it be.

Maybe it was just where I lived in the UK, but I remember a huge fuss being made over cameras in city centres, and personal ID cards. The US government has basically spread itself across a barrel over the subject of unconstitutional monitoring.

I think the thing is, as Neu Leonstein mentioned.... Europe just can't trust the US anymore.

Europe can't trust the US, even on European soil... because of recent problems like Black Sites.

Hell, even the US citizens can no longer trust their OWN government... because - YES, it is one president that has decided civil freedoms are optional... BUT, the US government has basically let it be.

Maybe it was just where I lived in the UK, but I remember a huge fuss being made over cameras in city centres, and personal ID cards. The US government has basically spread itself across a barrel over the subject of unconstitutional monitoring.
Exactly and who wants to trust things like their infrastructure (air traffic and ship navigation) or their military weapon accuracy to a system controlled by a potential un-trustworthy foreign country.

Europe can't trust the US, even on European soil... because of recent problems like Black Sites.

Hell, even the US citizens can no longer trust their OWN government... because - YES, it is one president that has decided civil freedoms are optional... BUT, the US government has basically let it be.right, but we can trust the chicoms and the french!Maybe it was just where I lived in the UK, but I remember a huge fuss being made over cameras in city centres, and personal ID cards. The US government has basically spread itself across a barrel over the subject of unconstitutional monitoring.damn, we have personal ID cards and have to show papers to the police on demand. we are being oppressed in fascist germany!

Maybe it was just where I lived in the UK, but I remember a huge fuss being made over cameras in city centres, and personal ID cards. The US government has basically spread itself across a barrel over the subject of unconstitutional monitoring.

The UK government has always had far more sweeping powers to monitor the populace than the US government.

You should what they can do to enforce the TV license fee.

right, but we can trust the chicoms and the french!damn, we have personal ID cards and have to show papers to the police on demand. we are being oppressed in fascist germany!
But unlike with the relation to the us (in respect to the GPS service) they dont have to compleatly trusth china or the french because they have some basis for some controll over the system

As is they have no controll and loosing trust

With the new system they may or may not have the trust (though I am sure they do to some extent) but they have some control

The UK government has always had far more sweeping powers to monitor the populace than the US government.

You should what they can do to enforce the TV license fee.

(I know... ex-Englishman living in the US...)

right, but we can trust the chicoms and the french!damn, we have personal ID cards and have to show papers to the police on demand. we are being oppressed in fascist germany!

Is there any special reason why we CAN'T trust China?

We may not agree with their foreign policy, or their internal policy... and we certainly may not agree with their claims to territory (I have Hong Kong friends)... but what is it we should 'distrust' about them?

But unlike with the relation to the us (in respect to the GPS service) they dont have to compleatly trusth china or the french because they have some basis for some controll over the system

As is they have no controll and loosing trust

With the new system they may or may not have the trust (though I am sure they do to some extent) but they have some control

Exactly.

If you are building an international cooperation, you are looking for people you can cooperate with.

The English may be wary of the French (Hell, we've probable invaded them more times than everyone else put together), and we may have disagreements with the Chinese.... but we are not (collectively) especially worried that tomorrow we will be finding Chinese tanks on our streets, or French torture chambers hidden in our countryside.