NationStates Jolt Archive

Very good read. Blotted out the guy's name, as this IS the internet. This was posted over on Americansnipers.org, which is an aid organization that delivers much needed gear to American and Coalition snipers deployed in the WOT, since Snipers need gear that is much different than normal infantrymen.

Here you go.

____________

By Corporal ********, *.

Well, I am still here in Iraq, and with regards to this war, I can say I have seen and done some amazing things.

I've seen both cowards and heroes both young and old.

Been both confident and terrified, both at the same time.

I've grown to love and hate people with a fierce passion.

I've given food to the starving, and water to the thirsty.

I've seen the pain and uncertainty in a man, woman, and child's face right before they died.

I've seen the terror in a man's face when my weapon was pointed at his head.

I've looked a man in the eyes right before I put a sandbag over his head.

I've tasted the burn of OC/pepper spray as I sprayed a man in the face.

I've learned Arabic from a 12 year old girl who was my friend.

I've waved hello back at so many passing cars, I felt like I was famous.

I've been on TV 4 times, then watched the media tell lies about us.

I've been in 3 papers, and was amazed at the inaccuracy of my story.

I've seen dozens of marriages fall apart on both ends.

I've seen Iraqis cry, they were so happy that we were here.

I've had Iraqis swear me up and down because I had to search them.

I've heard the launch of mortar rounds as they left the tube.

I've seen those same mortar rounds blow up around me and my friends.

I had a friend show me pictures of his kids, and get killed the very next day.

I've heard the pop-pop-pop of gunfire, and then the ping-ping-ping as it hit around me.

I've seen people afraid to pull the trigger, and not kill...and I've seen people kill when they shouldn't have pulled the trigger.

I've seen men in the cross hairs of the scope mounted on my rifle and.

I've pulled the trigger so they will never ever be seen again.

I've laid countless hours on my cot trying to sleep but couldn't, because the helicopters were to loud, explosions were to close, their was to much gunfire.

I've taken prisoners, guarded prisoners, and released prisoners.

I've lost weight because my stomach couldn't handle the food here.

I've knocked on people's doors, kicked down people's doors, and almost shot off someone's door.

I've sat on a rooftop for 53 days straight looking for bad guys, and learned what patience really is.

I've lost all sense of privacy, but grew closer than a brother with my squad and platoon.

I've cleaned my weapon more than I have cleaned my clothes, because it was more important.

I've learned to appreciate all the things I once took for granted.

I've never worked so hard and got paid so little in my life, but even still worked harder.

I've watched videos of Nick Berg getting his head sawed off his body while he screamed, and never wanted to kill so bad in my life.

I remember when a young kid that called us "sadiq-i" (friend) brought us food each day at a checkpoint, and remember when a suicide bomber killed him and 18 other people days later.

I remember a crazy lady telling me lies to waste my time for no reason.

I remember a pretty girl secretly waving hello to me so nobody would see, fearing ridicule.

I remember the screams of people when a restaurant exploded with innocent people inside.

I'll never forget the smell of burning flesh for as long as I live...ever.

I've seen Iraqi people fight alongside us one minute, then fight against us the next.

I've captured dozens of weapons, some of which were gold plated.

I've been in a car accident that would've killed me if I wasn't riding in an armored hummer.

I've smiled and scowled, laughed and yelled at different crowds of people.

I've seen a 13 year old prostitute bring money home to her father to live.

I've smelled the crisp air of a new morning, and the soot and stench of cordite the next morning.

I've been so hot, that I stopped sweating and my body started to shut down.

I've been so tired and worn out, but still couldn't sleep for days at a time.

I've seen people accidentally shoot their weapons and almost kill people, and I've seen people intentionally shoot their weapons and kill people.

I've never counted or carried so much ammunition in my life, and I've been around the world more than once or twice with the military.

I've sat back and enjoyed an ice cold Coke, and other times I've called on the radio begging for a resupply of water and food because we were starving literally.

I've seen guys "baby" their weapons, and I've seen guys treat them like hell, fully knowing it was the only thing that might save their lives.

I've said "I hate here" a thousand times, and heard it said a million more times.

I've seen a platoon leader curl up in the fetal position out of terror during a firefight, and a private in that same platoon fight like a savage for his life.

I've seen a medic choke-up and not be able to do his job, and an infantryman next to him bandage up a wounded child.

I've had kids throw rocks at me because I didn't have any chocolate candy to give them.

I almost shot a 14 year old kid that pulled a gun on another kid, the toys look very real here.

I've seen kids play in a virtual minefield of explosives and ordinance like they were at Disneyland.

I've heard shots fired and hit the ground, ducked, jumped behind cover, and flat out ignored them I've seen "new guys" in units come here so scared they point their guns at everything they see.

I've been on missions so long, that I've come back to my FOB (base camp) with a full beard.

I've sat up late at night waiting for a friend to come back from a patrol that got hit, like a parent waits for their child who's been out all night.

I've made best of friends with a 17 year old kid, and a 47 year old man, and talked to both like we were old high school buddies.

I've cleaned my friend's blood off of his equipment, and turned it in because he was killed in an explosion hours before.

I've seen enough different people's body parts, that I could put them all together and make a completely new body with them.

I've laughed and joked with Australian soldiers, had conversations with British soldiers, and drank chi (tea) with Arab soldiers.

I've seen how well our bulletproof vest work, and they do stop bullets.

I've read the bible and figured I am in, or near the 'Garden of Eden'; but it hardly looks like paradise to me.

I've seen fisherman fishing, kids swimming, boats and dead bodies floating in the Tigris River.

I've asked myself dozens of times "Why am I here", but I know the answer, and I know if asked...I'd come back again no question.

I've missed my family and still do, and I regret not spending as much time with them as I should've before I left.

I've figured out who my real friends are back home, because they have taken the time to write me a letter or an e-mail.

I felt sold out by my chain of command because I made a decision to shoot, and sat through an 'inquisition' for making a judgment call that I would again.

I've gone on my 2 weeks of R&R and enjoyed the downtime, however was anxious to get back to this strange place.

I've been to far too many memorial services of our fallen brothers, and choked up everytime, even if silently so nobody could tell

I've seen an enemy sniper cause so much pandemonium, that without a shot being fired the sniper was winning a psychological victory over us.

I've traded 'war stories' with my best friend who worked in the private sector up north through countless e-mails.

I've been disgusted by the double standard that I have seen day in and day out.

I've lost a friend to an enemy sniper's bullet and felt helpless.

I've been given a urinalyses test because people were doing drugs over here.

I've seen the Iraqi people respect the military, and I've seen them totally disregard our presence and "walk all over us".

I've searched a car we stopped in sector and found an Oklahoma license plate in the trunk with '04 tag stickers on it.

I've felt my stomach knot and my heart skip a beat when a vehicle speeding by, cut his wheel and came directly at me...I was going to be blown-up for sure I thought.

I've been terribly sick, but continued to work and patrol through it...mission first.

I've gotten packages and letters from people I don't know, and a smile was brought to my face each time.

I've had my comfort zone tested and violated by these people time and time again.

I've had Iraqis throw fireworks at me on New Years, thinking it was funny that I couldn't tell it wasn't a gunshot.

I've come to the conclusion that some soldiers here will return home by the grace of God, and other soldiers will come home simply because the man to the left or right of him did their job.

I've seen lousy soldiers awarded medals for no reason at all, and other soldiers who rightfully deserved recognition for gallantry under fire passed over with not even a pat on the back.

I've seen the clear difference between competence and arrogance in my leadership.

Corporal ********, *.

From American snipers

Wow.... Hits Your Right There. Really, Really Strong. Shows You How The War In The Middle East Really Is Going...

"Want to know what combat is like?"

No thanks. Been there, done that, got the frakking t-shirt!

Actually, I do have the t-shirt. It says, "Vietnam Veteran: I served and all I have to show for it is this fucking t-shirt!" :D

Wow.... Hits Your Right There. Really, Really Strong. Shows You How The War In The Middle East Really Is Going...

I'm doing my best to bring original, non-stagnated content to the NS general forums. Doing my best to earn my keep around here. :D

"Want to know what combat is like?"

No thanks. Been there, done that, got the frakking t-shirt!

Actually, I do have the t-shirt. It says, "Vietnam Veteran: I served and all I have to show for it is this fucking t-shirt!" :D

So, Is This Basically Vietnam, But In The Desert And Villages?

So, Is This Basically Vietnam, But In The Desert And Villages?
Not even close.

Not even close.

Yup.

32 years apart, incredibly different societies, political climates, etc.

9/11 is also a big factor.

Hmm... True, I Suppose. Glad I'm In The Air Force Reserves.... Now I REALLY Don't Want To Be On The Ground With Those Guys.

Wow.... Hits Your Right There. Really, Really Strong. Shows You How The War In The Middle East Really Is Going...
Yeah, it makes me think that there is 100,000+ men and women that could have been home with their families this Christmas just passed, if it wasn't for some short sighted politicians who thought Iraq was a threat to America. :(

Yup.

32 years apart, incredibly different societies, political climates, etc.

9/11 is also a big factor.
All the usual military "background noise" is pretty much the same. Some things never change. But the tone, tenor, pace, place, atmosphere, people, and so many other things are wildly different.

Yeah, it makes me think that there is 100,000+ men and women that could have been home with their families this Christmas just passed, if it wasn't for some short sighted politicians who thought Iraq was a threat to America. :(
Yep, US soldiers are true professionals, all right.

If you want to know what combat is, enlist. Now.

Not after you finish college, not after you finished whatever, enlist now!

If you want to know what combat is, enlist. Now.

Not after you finish college, not after you finished whatever, enlist now!
I tried, but they told me I was too old, too disabled and had already had more years in than most. Sigh. Oh, well! :p

Yeah a good friend of mine in the Marines has just been called to duty in Iraq (they called him the day before Christmas apparently). His wife just turned 8 months pregnant so he wont get to be there for the birth of his daughter. His son recently turned a year old. I am worried for him and his family. This war pisses me off!!!!!!!:( :mad:

"Want to know what combat is like?"

No thanks. Been there, done that, got the frakking t-shirt!

Actually, I do have the t-shirt. It says, "Vietnam Veteran: I served and all I have to show for it is this fucking t-shirt!" :D
Just count yourself lucky you have the t-shirt.

Yeah a good friend of mine in the Marines has just been called to duty in Iraq (they called him the day before Christmas apparently). His wife just turned 8 months pregnant so he wont get to be there for the birth of his daughter. His son recently turned a year old. I am worried for him and his family. This war pisses me off!!!!!!!:( :mad:
This is nothing new. Even in peacetime, there are still unaccompanied tours of duty.

No, I'd like to know what Americans would do without a "war" being manufactured every generation or so, though.

Maybe they'd get around to their gardening and such. Win-win.

If you want to know what combat is, enlist. Now.

Not after you finish college, not after you finished whatever, enlist now!

I'm going to graduate college with my associates degree in Law enforcement next fall and I will continue to work on my bachelors. However, should something else start up-war with Iran or Syria, or N. Korea, I'll be there. I've submitted my selective service info so they know where I am..

This is nothing new. Even in peacetime, there are still unaccompanied tours of duty.


What's an unaccompanied tour of duty?

I'm just pissed that my friend is being sent to a warzone before even getting to see his daughter being born. It's sucks for him and his wife. She was a Marine too so she knows that it was a possibility. She is sad of course and doesn't want to be left alone to take care of her son and go through her pregnancy alone though.

Besides the fact that this war is a bunch of B.S., sold on "faulty intelligence" and "misstatements"

An unaccompanied tour is when you can't take your family with you. The prime example of this is Korea.

What's an unaccompanied tour of duty?

I'm just pissed that my friend is being sent to a warzone before even getting to see his daughter being born. It's sucks for him and his wife. She was a Marine too so she knows that it was a possibility. She is sad of course and doesn't want to be left alone to take care of her son and go through her pregnancy alone though.

Besides the fact that this war is a bunch of B.S., sold on "faulty intelligence" and "misstatements"
It isn't even a war by any definition that'll hold water: Bush thinks he can get around congress and the senate by comitting troops without having any branch of the government approve this bullshit, because he doubts that they will.
Fair play to the chimp: they're now all saying that they wouldn't have.

An unaccompanied tour is when you can't take your family with you. The prime example of this is Korea.

Even If he could take his family to Korea, I sure wouldn't. Area is way too hot.

I'm going to graduate college with my associates degree in Law enforcement next fall and I will continue to work on my bachelors.
And one bullet or an IED could undo all the hard work that you have done up until now.

However, should something else start up-war with Iran or Syria, or N. Korea, I'll be there. I've submitted my selective service info so they know where I am..
With recruitment figures down, I would imagine that your number is already circled and it will only be a matter of time before you get to "know what combat is like"?

And one bullet or an IED could undo all the hard work that you have done up until now.
Or one drunk driver, or one undetected cancer, or one demented neighbor, or one tsunami, or one hurricane, or one tornado, or one slippery bathtub, or ... or ... or.

Yup.

32 years apart, incredibly different societies, political climates, etc.

9/11 is also a big factor.
Yeah, I imagine that Iraqi society is much more conservative than Vietnamese society. Do you think that the insurgents in Iraq fight more or less dirty than the VC?

I don't see what 9/11 has to do with it.

Or one drunk driver, or one undetected cancer, or one demented neighbor, or one tsunami, or one hurricane, or one tornado, or one slippery bathtub, or ... or ... or.
Those are natural occurences that could happen anywhere and at anytime. One would think that the risk of death or severe injury would increase greatly if one should choose to enter a war zone.

I'm going to graduate college with my associates degree in Law enforcement next fall and I will continue to work on my bachelors. However, should something else start up-war with Iran or Syria, or N. Korea, I'll be there. I've submitted my selective service info so they know where I am..
So do you support all wars?

Those are natural occurences that could happen anywhere and at anytime. One would think that the risk of death or severe injury would increase greatly if one should choose to enter a war zone.
Reeeely??? Wow! [ shocked look ] :rolleyes:

So drunk drivers and demented neigbors are "natural occurences." Riiiight!

Look, another "The media is lying to us about all the peachy-keen things were doing in Iraq" thread.

If anyone has any doubts, allow me to simplify things.

1. There are, indeed, some truly awful things being done by the american military in Iraq, and the media perpetuates these, and reports mostly these kinds of stories.

2. There are some good things being done in Iraq.
This is especially important, becuase we do not now, nor ever did, have any right to be there in the first place.

Reeeely??? Wow! [ shocked look ] :rolleyes:

So drunk drivers and demented neigbors are "natural occurences." Riiiight!

No, but you dont charge into the path of an oncoming drunk driver, knowing it for what it is.

War makes soldiers do that.

Powerful sentiments. Way powerful.

I'm glad there are men like that in Iraq and our military for us.

No, but you dont charge into the path of an oncoming drunk driver, knowing it for what it is.

War makes soldiers do that.
War makes soldiers charge into the path of an oncoming drunk driver? Interesting. :rolleyes:

I'm going to graduate college with my associates degree in Law enforcement next fall and I will continue to work on my bachelors. However, should something else start up-war with Iran or Syria, or N. Korea, I'll be there. I've submitted my selective service info so they know where I am..

If you are so supportive, why don't you forget graduation and join NOW? I mean, your country "needs" you now, not later!

Join in. Go to war, now, when you are needed. As someone said, the army is in dire need of fresh blood. A patriot as you will surely not use graduation as an excuse to postpone is chance to go die.

War makes soldiers charge into the path of an oncoming drunk driver? Interesting. :rolleyes:
Maybe childish bullshit like this is why people like me lack respect fo you?

Last time I posted what combat really is like I got myself banned.
But I'm glad that no one has a problem hearing about a bit of amateur propaganda (a lot easier to stomach than people blown apart by backpacks full of explosives)...

So do you support all wars?

No.

Don't turn this into a political debate.

I tried, but they told me I was too old, too disabled and had already had more years in than most. Sigh. Oh, well! :p
Then kick their asses and join anyway. Haven't they ever heard of respect for ones elders?

Don't turn this into a political debate.
But you're aware that the two cannot be examined apart from each other?

No.

Don't turn this into a political debate.
Talk of war IS political debate.
War IS a result of political debate OR the lack thereof in the case of Iraq.

No.

Don't turn this into a political debate.
He doesn't support any wars: he hasn't joined up, remember?

He doesn't support any wars: he hasn't joined up, remember?
I find it interesting that you all know exactly what war is like, without having experienced it first hand. All sources that are quoted, that dissagree with your opinions are then suddenly discredited as being false. Every outrageous argument that supports your side is suddenly incredibly accurate.

I wonder how many NS'rs have been in a combat enviroment. Eutrusca has said so. Anyone else been in a hot zone?

"Want to know what combat is like?"

No thanks. Been there, done that, got the frakking t-shirt!

Actually, I do have the t-shirt. It says, "Vietnam Veteran: I served and all I have to show for it is this fucking t-shirt!" :D

Been there, done that, as well.

Eut, you were doing it before doing it was in fashion.

I wonder how many NS'rs have been in a combat enviroment. Eutrusca has said so. Anyone else been in a hot zone?
I will become an officer of Marines, so depending on how long we stay at war, I just might.

I wonder how many NS'rs have been in a combat enviroment. Eutrusca has said so. Anyone else been in a hot zone?
My issue is not so much with what is written, it is with the intention with which it was posted.
This poster has a history of posting things that are borderline glorifying war (borderline being more of a polite phrase, in fact it sometimes was nothing but glorification). I suspect that he has some sort of soldier = hero and war = cool (even though it's not something one would say explicitly, you know the sort of fascination that war can have on people) complex.

So I question that, not what is actually written. Although I still find it curious that posting pictures of the nasty side of war is a deletable offense, while writing things like these will not be criticised - ultimately the two are one and the same thing.

I wonder how many NS'rs have been in a combat enviroment. Eutrusca has said so. Anyone else been in a hot zone?

Pax Sueciae! :P

Want to know what combat is like?
If so, that account doesn't begin to explain it. Not that I am trying to diminish whatever merits it has, it is an account, perhaps a powerful one to some, of a particular sort of combat in a particular place. But I imagine that there's been more than just that that's happened in the history of combat, and that more's to come too. And can one man's written experiences really explain it? To know what combat is like, I'd think it'd be necessary to go out and partake in it. Necessary to fight, to live, to kill, to die, to struggle, etc.

I will become an officer of Marines, so depending on how long we stay at war, I just might.
You'll be in good company. Semper Fi, pal.

If so, that account doesn't begin to explain it. Not that I am trying to diminish whatever merits it has, it is an account, perhaps a powerful one to some, of a particular sort of combat in a particular place. But I imagine that there's been more than just that that's happened in the history of combat, and that more's to come too. And can one man's written experiences really explain it? To know what combat is like, I'd think it'd be necessary to go out and partake in it. Necessary to fight, to live, to kill, to die, to struggle, etc.
You need to read some of the good war correspondents. Ernie Pyle wrote some damn good accounts of the Marines in the Pacific. Winged Victory is a great account of flying in World War I. I think you _can_ get a good idea of what men think and do in combat without being there. You don't need to suffer the sweats and the adrenaline jitters that keep you awake all night, just to get the basic idea of what goes on.

You'll be in good company. Semper Fi, pal.
Thank you. This summer I'm kind of cheating though, and my ROTC program is sending me to PLC for their summer program, cause I'm not on scolarship yet. So baisically this summer I get to go to Quantico for over a month, get yelled at, and payed! I'm gonna love it.

I find it interesting that you all know exactly what war is like, without having experienced it first hand. All sources that are quoted, that dissagree with your opinions are then suddenly discredited as being false. Every outrageous argument that supports your side is suddenly incredibly accurate.
Perhaps you have misread the rebuttals? I do not believe that anyone is doubting the realities of war or the original post.

Personally, I am against the war in Iraq and any attempt to glorify it.

So far, over 2,000 US troops have died in Iraq, over 15,000 have been injured and depending on what news source you use, there has been 30,000 to 100,000 Iraqi civilan deaths. All of this death and destruction for all the wrong reasons.

Do I know "exactly" what war is like? Of course not, but I do have a damn good idea.

War makes soldiers charge into the path of an oncoming drunk driver? Interesting. :rolleyes:

It's an interesting conclusion to say the least.

:D

If so, that account doesn't begin to explain it. Not that I am trying to diminish whatever merits it has,

*snips*


Whatever merit does it have? (And don't shovel the old horse-shit of camaraderie/brotherhood, you can get that feeling from a weekend spent fishing.)

Then kick their asses and join anyway. Haven't they ever heard of respect for ones elders?
[ Kicks Neo's ass and joins anyway. ] :D

Whatever merit does it have? (And don't shovel the old horse-shit of camaraderie/brotherhood, you can get that feeling from a weekend spent fishing.)
Listening to my father, and both of my grandfathers, suggests that it is an entirely different type of brotherhood and comraderie. You know these people mean something to you, and you know you mean something to these people. When your out in the field your not thinking about the major cause of the war, or that sort of thing, you think about the lives of those around you, you fight to keep them alive. Going fishing with someone for a weekend is just having good times with friends, going to war with a partner in arms is fighting so the man next to you can survive.

Listening to my father, and both of my grandfathers, suggests that it is an entirely different type of brotherhood and comraderie. You know these people mean something to you, and you know you mean something to these people. When your out in the field your not thinking about the major cause of the war, or that sort of thing, you think about the lives of those around you, you fight to keep them alive. Going fishing with someone for a weekend is just having good times with friends, going to war with a partner in arms is fighting so the man next to you can survive.
But neither are wholly necessary. They have that much in common. Both of them require a choice or decision to participate. Both require co-operative skills and a certain degree of expertise. A background in First Aid techniques is handy in either scenario. Communitarianisn takes many forms. You don't necessarily need the backdrop of a war to give those sensibilities a voice.

You certainly don't need to manufacture conflict every generation simply to recruit and sustain an unhealthy subculture.

But neither are wholly necessary. They have that much in common. Both of them require a choice or decision to participate. Both require co-operative skills and a certain degree of expertise. A background in First Aid techniques is handy in either scenario. Communitarianisn takes many forms. You don't necessarily need the backdrop of a war to give those sensibilities a voice.

You certainly don't need to manufacture conflict every generation simply to recruit and sustain an unhealthy subculture.
I'm not going to try and argue with you for several reasons.

1: I know in the long run, I'm not going to be able to change your mind
2: I utterly suck at debating anything
3: If I try, what respect I have for you is going to dissapear, cause thats what happens to everyone I try and debate with seriously, even people that were OK friends before
4: I only tried to show you that it was an entirely different type of comraderie than you would get going out with people for a weekend.

I'm not going to try and argue with you for several reasons.

1: I know in the long run, I'm not going to be able to change your mind
2: I utterly suck at debating anything
3: If I try, what respect I have for you is going to dissapear, cause thats what happens to everyone I try and debate with seriously, even people that were OK friends before
4: I only tried to show you that it was an entirely different type of comraderie than you would get going out with people for a weekend.
So, you tend to lose respect for people that you "try" to "debate with seriously"? Hmmm interesting.

You do realize that most people who debate on this forum (especially threads involving the War in Iraq) tend to take the debates very "seriously"?

So, you tend to lose respect for people that you "try" to "debate with seriously"? Hmmm interesting.

You do realize that most people who debate on this forum (especially threads involving the War in Iraq) tend to take the debates very "seriously"?
like I said, I can't debate very well, so I usually avoid it. I hang around a bit more in the RP forums, and lurk much more here in general.

It's that I get pissed off when debating, so I tend to get angry, and that usually leads to bad things, so thats that.

Thank you. This summer I'm kind of cheating though, and my ROTC program is sending me to PLC for their summer program, cause I'm not on scolarship yet. So baisically this summer I get to go to Quantico for over a month, get yelled at, and payed! I'm gonna love it.
The is nothing 'cheap' about PLC. I went to the 10 OCS week course after I graduated and I'm not sure I'd have gone back for the second 6 week PLC course.

Be in _great_ shape when you go. I mean like three miles in 18 minutes, twenty pull-ups, and 100 sit-ups kind of shape. Remember that the enlisted Instructors want to see you pass, so everything they do is actually 'help'. They won't put up with dirt bags in our Corps, though. Learn as much as you can from the prior enlisted guys, if there are any in your platoon. PLC is mostly mental, Parris Island was mostly physical, but they have learned the basics on boot shining, bed making, and a lot of the other fundamentals that you should be able to do without taking much time or effort.

A large number of us decided that it was too much trouble to dial in the combination on our foot-lockers every time we wanted to get something out of them. So we left the locks where one could just pull to disengage the hasp. Go figure that one day when we came back to the squad bay after PT, almost all of the foot lockers were unlocked, empty, and piled on top of the contents in the middle of the room. It shouldn't surprise you much when the Sergeant Instructor came in with a ball of combination locks, threw them into the center of the room, and told us we had ten minutes to get them back on our footlockers and get outside. I have no idea how long it really took to get organized and outside, but they left us alone long enough to get it done. Then we got the lecture about keeping the locks locked again.

So, you tend to lose respect for people that you "try" to "debate with seriously"? Hmmm interesting.

You do realize that most people who debate on this forum (especially threads involving the War in Iraq) tend to take the debates very "seriously"?
When a fellow like Dobbs tries to tell you that going fishing and surviving a firefight are building the same kind of bonds between people that aren't even friends, it's hard to build up a lot of interest in wasting the bandwidth that it takes to argue with him.

When a fellow like Dobbs tries to tell you that going fishing and surviving a firefight are building the same kind of bonds between people that aren't even friends, it's hard to build up a lot of interest in wasting the bandwidth that it takes to argue with him.
I was replying to the Nation of Fortune's comment regarding debate in general. I was not agreeing with Dobbs's analogy.

I was replying to the Nation of Fortune's comment regarding debate in general. I was not agreeing with Dobbs's analogy.
Seems to me, the Nation knows his limits and recognizes when he's exceeding them. Not all of us are 'debaters'. Some of us are just 'discussers'.

Want to know what combat is like?

Want to know what peace is like?

Want to know what peace is like?
Kind of like my back yard, eh?

Want to know what peace is like?
That would be nice. Talk to al Quida and Iran for us, willya?

That would be nice. Talk to al Quida and Iran for us, willya?


Seems to me, Iran kinda wants to be left alone, for the time being.

Or, do you think we should just pre-emptively invade every muslim nation on earth?

Seems to me, Iran kinda wants to be left alone, for the time being.

Or, do you think we should just pre-emptively invade every muslim nation on earth?
"Left alone" to develop nuclear bombs, yes.

I think we should "pre-emptively" prevent the development of nuclear weapons by Nations who have demonstrated a degree of insanity.

Thats alot to take in...

I have a buddy that is like a brother to me. He is a Marine. And I can see him in all those lines. And it hurts.

God I hope this is all worth it.

That would be nice. Talk to al Quida and Iran for us, willya?

I would, but I wouldn't know what to say to them. You see, some time ago America invaded Iraq...

I wonder how many NS'rs have been in a combat enviroment. Eutrusca has said so. Anyone else been in a hot zone?

I was in RHHT 3d Armored Cavalry Regiment, Ar Ramadi, Iraq during OIF 1.

Want to know what peace is like?

We haven't had peace for a long time.

Thats alot to take in...

I have a buddy that is like a brother to me. He is a Marine. And I can see him in all those lines. And it hurts.

God I hope this is all worth it.


It is, and it will be. Stick to the course, and do not give up. Just like getting your bachelors degree-quitting early gets you nothing.

We haven't had peace for a long time.

My point exactly. :(

The is nothing 'cheap' about PLC. I went to the 10 OCS week course after I graduated and I'm not sure I'd have gone back for the second 6 week PLC course.

Be in _great_ shape when you go. I mean like three miles in 18 minutes, twenty pull-ups, and 100 sit-ups kind of shape. Remember that the enlisted Instructors want to see you pass, so everything they do is actually 'help'. They won't put up with dirt bags in our Corps, though. Learn as much as you can from the prior enlisted guys, if there are any in your platoon. PLC is mostly mental, Parris Island was mostly physical, but they have learned the basics on boot shining, bed making, and a lot of the other fundamentals that you should be able to do without taking much time or effort.

A large number of us decided that it was too much trouble to dial in the combination on our foot-lockers every time we wanted to get something out of them. So we left the locks where one could just pull to disengage the hasp. Go figure that one day when we came back to the squad bay after PT, almost all of the foot lockers were unlocked, empty, and piled on top of the contents in the middle of the room. It shouldn't surprise you much when the Sergeant Instructor came in with a ball of combination locks, threw them into the center of the room, and told us we had ten minutes to get them back on our footlockers and get outside. I have no idea how long it really took to get organized and outside, but they left us alone long enough to get it done. Then we got the lecture about keeping the locks locked again.
Thanks for the advice. I will make sure to keep my foot locker locked after that story. As for the physical fittness, I'm already meeting two of those three categories, and rapidly improving my pullups. My upper body strength has always been my weakness. At the beggining of school year I was doing about three, and now I'm doing ten, so I believe I'll have twenty by the time summer rolls around.

Semper Fidelis

No.
Would you fight in your country's army regardless of whether you agreed with the war in question? I mean, would you put your country's victory over all other concerns?

This is not a political debate so much as a philosophical debate.

Would you fight in your country's army regardless of whether you agreed with the war in question? I mean, would you put your country's victory over all other concerns?

This is not a political debate so much as a philosophical debate.

Yup.

Yup.
What if the year was 1942 and your country was Germany?

What if the year was 1942 and your country was Germany?

You would obviously be to high on meth to understand what was going on.

Anway if the US was killing people in masse as the German's were than I would not fight. However if I were a German and I didn't realise what was going on with the slaughter in the camps. Than most likely I would have fought for the homeland. Different time and place so it is difficult to say what I would have personally done.

What if the year was 1942 and your country was Germany?
Personally, if the year was 1942 and my country was Germany, I'd probably be celebrating my 9th year in exile, and enjoying it most thoroughly.

You can talk for days and days, and never understand what combat is like until you've been there, and if you are lucky you will never know.

You can talk for days and days, and never understand what combat is like until you've been there, and if you are lucky you will never know.
What's luck got to do with it? Lucky that some wretched politician somewhere decides not to keep up with the Joneses and host yet another war party?

You can talk for days and days, and never understand what combat is like until you've been there, and if you are lucky you will never know.


Not all combat is created equal either. There are different situations that dictate the ferocity of the experience. I would suppose that Eutrusca saw far more than I did in the first Gulf War. Mine lasted a short time compared to a Vietnam veteran per se.

Yup.
Even if your government's actions were morally reprehensible? Did you understand that part?

Not all combat is created equal either. There are different situations that dictate the ferocity of the experience. I would suppose that Eutrusca saw far more than I did in the first Gulf War. Mine lasted a short time compared to a Vietnam veteran per se.

True. Ii'm sure that Eutrusca saw more in Vietnam than I did in my tour in Iraq. War and combat is something that no matter what your previous experiance, its not something that you are ever truely ready for, and an experiance no one can ever propperly convey.

Would you fight in your country's army regardless of whether you agreed with the war in question? I mean, would you put your country's victory over all other concerns?

This is not a political debate so much as a philosophical debate.

'its not a question of why but just to do or die' its those peaceful people out there who believe that war will end one day. it wont, its natural, animals fight all the time. maybe not with weapons, but certainly for power or dominance.

god take care of the personal serving in iraq at the moment

'its not a question of why but just to do or die' its those peaceful people out there who believe that war will end one day. it wont, its natural, animals fight all the time. maybe not with weapons, but certainly for power or dominance.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html
Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace. It thus repudiates the doctrine of Pacifism -- born of a renunciation of the struggle and an act of cowardice in the face of sacrifice. War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have courage to meet it. All other trials are substitutes, which never really put men into the position where they have to make the great decision -- the alternative of life or death....
Believe it or not, but what you are saying is basically the message of Fascism: Don't care about humanity, don't care about principle, don't care about morality - the only thing I care about is that I win the eternal struggle.

What if the year was 1942 and your country was Germany?

I'm never going to have to be in that situation, because thank God I am not German and I wasn't born in the 1920's.

I'd emigrate to the US.

I'm never going to have to be in that situation, because thank God I am not German and I wasn't born in the 1920's.

I'd emigrate to the US.
Ah, so you wouldn't fight for your government no-matter-what. That's a healthy attitude.

I'm never going to have to be in that situation, because thank God I am not German and I wasn't born in the 1920's.
Well, that's something of an evasion of the question, isn't it?

I'd emigrate to the US.
That's not particularly patriotic.

You can't really tell what will happen. The US is not excempt from the same shit that happened in Germany - and all it took there was a lot of patriotic people who'd support their country, even if they found the reasons suspicious.
Massacres, bombings of civilians, torture and all the rest of it happened at one time or another in the US army - regardless of intention, the result for the victims is the same. You're not facing up for yourself to the real question: Do I put the judgement of the leadership of my country (both moral and otherwise) above my own?

Ah, so you wouldn't fight for your government no-matter-what. That's a healthy attitude.

If my government decided "Hey, let's forget the BOR and start rounding up gun owners, freeing oppressed, dis-enfranchised peoples..." etc.....

I'd be on the other side.

... what you are saying is basically the message of Fascism: Don't care about humanity, don't care about principle, don't care about morality - the only thing I care about is that I win the eternal struggle.
How very ... Darwinian of him. :rolleyes:

You can't really tell what will happen. The US is not excempt from the same shit that happened in Germany - and all it took there was a lot of patriotic people who'd support their country, even if they found the reasons suspicious.

Do I put the judgement of the leadership of my country (both moral and otherwise) above my own?
No. No government is worth that. I would, however, place the welfare of my people above my own.

The German people were starving to death under the Wiemar Republic. There was virtually total chaos and uncertainty was the rule of the day. The Country was ripe for the proverbial "man on a white horse."

If you are so supportive, why don't you forget graduation and join NOW? I mean, your country "needs" you now, not later!

Join in. Go to war, now, when you are needed. As someone said, the army is in dire need of fresh blood. A patriot as you will surely not use graduation as an excuse to postpone is chance to go die.


Because he dosen't have to. It's that simple,
I have done my tour in the sand box and I really do not appricate you equaiting somebody to a coward because he wishes to finish his studies. where is your enlistment?

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html

Believe it or not, but what you are saying is basically the message of Fascism: Don't care about humanity, don't care about principle, don't care about morality - the only thing I care about is that I win the eternal struggle.

What? You thought that that the Nazi's fascination with Darwinism only extended to making people feel better about killing Jews? That evolution is just something some faceless "fundies" don't want kids hearing about at school?

What? You thought that that the Nazi's fascination with Darwinism only extended to making people feel better about killing Jews? That evolution is just something some faceless "fundies" don't want kids hearing about at school?
:confused:
I was perfectly aware of the links between social darwinism and fascism - what are you attacking me for?

Nature might be violent and generally amoral - but that doesn't mean we have to be.

And as for Nazism, well, it's not the same as Fascism.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html

Believe it or not, but what you are saying is basically the message of Fascism: Don't care about humanity, don't care about principle, don't care about morality - the only thing I care about is that I win the eternal struggle.
okay i guess im fucked in the head ive got a polish heritage to which isnt exactly helpful. I just find it hard to comprehend that peace does exist in the strictest of senses. i believe in a state of mutual understanding but not complete and utter peace. this letter is mind blowing. and dont forget facsim was infact created by the romans. nazism is a radicallised version of it.

Well, that's something of an evasion of the question, isn't it?


That's not particularly patriotic.


You can't really tell what will happen. The US is not excempt from the same shit that happened in Germany - and all it took there was a lot of patriotic people who'd support their country, even if they found the reasons suspicious.
Massacres, bombings of civilians, torture and all the rest of it happened at one time or another in the US army - regardless of intention, the result for the victims is the same. You're not facing up for yourself to the real question: Do I put the judgement of the leadership of my country (both moral and otherwise) above my own?


We're talking about a mass murderer who murdered millions. If a hitler would have come into power in America and go on the same course the 1930's hitler did, I'd resist or go into exile.

Thankfully Americans know better.





For know. Don't know if Hitlery would get it...

We're talking about a mass murderer who murdered millions. If a hitler would have come into power in America and go on the same course the 1930's hitler did, I'd resist or go into exile.
So that finally answers the question: You would not support your country no matter what.

Thankfully Americans know better.
Yeah...one would hope so. But we'll see - the world will become a difficult place for Americans to deal with over the next 100 years or so.

For know. Don't know if Hitlery would get it...
Hah. Hah. Hah. :rolleyes:
How dare someone with the name "Clinton" go into politics!

If you are so supportive, why don't you forget graduation and join NOW? I mean, your country "needs" you now, not later!

Join in. Go to war, now, when you are needed. As someone said, the army is in dire need of fresh blood. A patriot as you will surely not use graduation as an excuse to postpone is chance to go die.
In the US Military, even in large scale operations that go on for years, casualties are at least an order of magnitude lower than 30 years ago.

Your odds of being killed or wounded are surprisingly small for people in combat.

Because he dosen't have to. It's that simple,
I have done my tour in the sand box and I really do not appricate you equaiting somebody to a coward because he wishes to finish his studies. where is your enlistment?

I am not equating him to be a coward, I am equating him to be an hypocrite, as he is so eager to support sending men into combat without going himself.

The day I support a war is the day I enlist.

In the US Military, even in large scale operations that go on for years, casualties are at least an order of magnitude lower than 30 years ago.

Your odds of being killed or wounded are surprisingly small for people in combat.

Oh here ABL, one more reason for you to be coherent and go fight the war yourself - Statistically, it's actually hard you will get yourself killed.

Want to know what combat is like?oh!!
Are you going to tell us?
Are you going to finally enlist and tell us?

I cant wait for you to tell us...
Just do it.. please do enlist.. the Country needs you...

oh!!
Are you going to tell us?
Are you going to finally enlist and tell us?

I cant wait for you to tell us...
Just do it.. please do enlist.. the Country needs you...

Been there, done that, Ocean.

I am too scared to find out what combat is like plus im still too bloody young, but i will respect any man who is willing to stand up and get involved and fight for the coalition. Good luck to all those who are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan and any where else in the world.

I look at the bravery of our troops over in Iraq, just as I admire the noble men who fought in Vietnam yet at the same time am disgusted by the government that forced them there. It's sickening really. Men are made heroes through conflict created by the deception of the State and all its vile trickery. Ironic.

oh!!
Are you going to tell us?
Are you going to finally enlist and tell us?

I cant wait for you to tell us...
Just do it.. please do enlist.. the Country needs you...


Easy, young buck. ARF will join the ranks of "The Few, The Proud" someday.


But now ARF must concentrate on his studies. TFTP need educated trigger pullers with something more than a high school education. ARF will relish being part of a Fine young men's conservative organization when the time is right.....

One thing ARF hates...............







































Waiting.

War in this modern age is nothing but a farce. You don't have to actually stand face to face with a person as you kill them. You get to remove yourself from that very personal interaction by shooting them from a distance, or bombing them, or driving over them in your tanks. Soldiers have no honor anymore. It has been taken from them and replaced with fancy kill gadgets.

War in this modern age is nothing but a farce. You don't have to actually stand face to face with a person as you kill them. You get to remove yourself from that very personal interaction by shooting them from a distance, or bombing them, or driving over them in your tanks. Soldiers have no honor anymore. It has been taken from them and replaced with fancy kill gadgets.
You my friend, are an idiot. The napoleonic tactics were designed to strictly do that. Line all your troops up, and have them shoot at once, so you had no clue if you personally killed an enemy. Now, if your that one behind the rifle pulling that trigger from a distance, you bear that burden of having killed that person, everything they lived up until this point to achieve, everything they may have had in the future, their family, their parents. You ended everything that person knew, and because of you, everything that person believed in is invalidated. Bombing your enemies has been in effect since WWI, and that isn't as personal as being that person behind the rifle. You don't 'run' your enemies over in tanks, thats jsut stupid. If your enemy can't dodge a tank that is coming at him, then something else is happening. He could be sacraficing himself to destroy the treads on your tank. So, when was it that soldiers had honor? Because the way you make it sound there hasn't been honor in a war since before firearms were invented.

And you need to call me an idiot because you are offended? I don't think there has been honor since firearms were invented. There might have been some for a while when they were so damn slow to load that it was easier to club someone with it rather than try to shoot again if you missed. But firearms make it easy to kill for the reasons you have given. You can pretend it isn't your fault that a father or son or whatever is dead. It takes away the serious nature of killing someone. You should be ready to deal with the consequences of taking a life and that means not dodging the act by spraying bullets around. If you're going to kill someone do it for a reason and do that person the honor of looking in their damn eyes and admitting that you are the person who is going to make their kids orphans.

War in this modern age is nothing but a farce. You don't have to actually stand face to face with a person as you kill them. You get to remove yourself from that very personal interaction by shooting them from a distance, or bombing them, or driving over them in your tanks. Soldiers have no honor anymore. It has been taken from them and replaced with fancy kill gadgets.

:eek: Wow. Just, wow... And I am SURE you would know how "Honorable" it is to gut somebody and see them die before your eyes... Also, I cannot see ANYONE being able to convince anyone in a major war in the past couple hundred years, like say Vietnam, or WW2, that what they fought in was "nothing but a farce". So basically you are saying it is a farce to watch your buddys head get shot off as opposed to watching him get mutilated with a sword or an axe or whatever. Nice opinion...

EDIT: You raise a decent point in your post just before this, that is part of the reason I (and, oh, 99% of the population of world, at least) abhor war, but my argument still stands.

No, I just figure you shouldn't fool yourself about killing someone. With technology you can remove yourself from the act by being distant from it. You didn't have that luxury through most of history. Even when people were killing each other with spears or bows and arrows you still had to go retreive your weapon and look at what you'd done. I just think people are easier about killing now because they can do it faster and pretend that its a video game.

I mean, people don't take killing as seriously as they should. And I think guns, and other killing technology are one of the reasons for this.

And you need to call me an idiot because you are offended? I don't think there has been honor since firearms were invented. There might have been some for a while when they were so damn slow to load that it was easier to club someone with it rather than try to shoot again if you missed. But firearms make it easy to kill for the reasons you have given. You can pretend it isn't your fault that a father or son or whatever is dead. It takes away the serious nature of killing someone. You should be ready to deal with the consequences of taking a life and that means not dodging the act by spraying bullets around. If you're going to kill someone do it for a reason and do that person the honor of looking in their damn eyes and admitting that you are the person who is going to make their kids orphans.
Calling you an idiot was to provoke to respond again, I've raised perfectly good points before and people have passed it by, I just find giving a response like that is more likely to get you a response.

How is it dodging the act to personally kill a man with a rifle? You think when wars were waged with swords they took the time to look their enemy in the eyes before they chopped their heads off? No, I'll tell you why if they did, they could have been killed by any other number of enemies that were surrounding them. It was a bloody mob, hacking away at whatever came near them, it wasn't all this fancy deuling you have envisioned. If you stopped to think about what you were doing you would have ended up dead.

If anything, a person with a rifle is holding much more of a burden on their shoulders then a person in a bloody mob swinging a sword or an axe around.

If I feel like responding I will. No need to get personal.

In a bloody battle with sword, tomahawk, club or whatever, you are still going to be toe to toe with the people that are trying to kill you and who you are trying to kill. You can't be distant from them. A rifle lets you get distant. Newer ones anyway. Like I said the older rifles weren't much good if you missed your shot because your enemy could probably run up to you and stick you with a knife in the time it took to reload. Oh and don't worry I wasn't picturing fancy dueling at all. That ooh la la European dandy pastime crap isn't what I'm talking about. No, I was picturing blood and guts figuring that if you ended up coverd in gore you might lose your taste for killing much faster than someone who gets to fly over and bomb people to death. Or shoot them from a distance.

If I feel like responding I will. No need to get personal.

In a bloody battle with sword, tomahawk, club or whatever, you are still going to be toe to toe with the people that are trying to kill you and who you are trying to kill. You can't be distant from them. A rifle lets you get distant. Newer ones anyway. Like I said the older rifles weren't much good if you missed your shot because your enemy could probably run up to you and stick you with a knife in the time it took to reload. Oh and don't worry I wasn't picturing fancy dueling at all. That ooh la la European dandy pastime crap isn't what I'm talking about. No, I was picturing blood and guts figuring that if you ended up coverd in gore you might lose your taste for killing much faster than someone who gets to fly over and bomb people to death. Or shoot them from a distance.
With firearms you have to think more, in the mass battles with swords and whatnot it was a struggle for survival, you knew only one thing, kill or be killed. Everyone went into it knowing they had a chance of being killed. Now with conventional weapons you have to think more, you have to think of the consequences of your actions before and after. Now soldiers have to see the blood and gore they caused just as much as back then. Now you have to listen to the screams of your fallen enemy, just as much as back then, if not more, you also have to listen to the screams of your comrades, and you can diferentiate a hundered fold. A common trap for a sniper is shoot one enemy in the leg or something, and wait while one of his comrades tries to save him, whole squads have fallen victim to this treatment, and listening to your comrades scream in pain is a thousand times worse than watching your enemy die.

I can see why people bitch and moan about the war, but the ones who know people who are serving, or ones who are serving, can complain because they have reason, and I respect that.
The thing is though, that although alot of people don't care for George Bush (I won't say my side) they still have to realize, he is our commander and chief, and the soldiers commander-and-chief, and their duty is to follow thier commander and chief.
You have all the reason in the world to dissagree with the war, but also, don't always believe the media, liberal or conservative. Get your own reports, such as the one this topic was started on.
Lastly, always, no matter what, no matter if you are a pacifist, or a staunch warr supporter, always support our troops that are there.....always.

Soldiers choose to be soldiers unless they are drafted. I don't know of any American draft. So why should I support them in their choice? It's their choice. What the hell do they need a pat on the back from me for?

I look at the bravery of our troops over in Iraq, just as I admire the noble men who fought in Vietnam yet at the same time am disgusted by the government that forced them there. It's sickening really. Men are made heroes through conflict created by the deception of the State and all its vile trickery. Ironic.

“The military don't start wars. Politicians start wars.” General Westmoreland

i totally agree with ur statement hopefully when the Iraq vets come home they get their recognition. and hopefully the parade they deserve lol