NationStates Jolt Archive


Partisan politics has NO PLACE in the classroom ... PERIOD!

Eutrusca
25-12-2005, 18:17
COMMENTARY: Yes, academic freedom is a necessary freedom for college-level instructors, but this is just ridiculous. IMHO, any professor who indulges in this sort of political indoctrination in the classroom is not only abridging the rights of his or her students, they are violating the very spirit and letter of academic freedom. The real danger is that this sort of abuse will open the door to political oversight of universities, which which I see as definitely not a good thing.


Professors' Politics
Draw Lawmakers Into the Fray (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/25/national/25bias.html?th&emc=th)


By MICHAEL JANOFSKY
Published: December 25, 2005
While attending a Pennsylvania Republican Party picnic, Jennie Mae Brown bumped into her state representative and started venting.

"How could this happen?" Ms. Brown asked Representative Gibson C. Armstrong two summers ago, complaining about a physics professor at the York campus of Pennsylvania State University who she said routinely used class time to belittle President Bush and the war in Iraq. As an Air Force veteran, Ms. Brown said she felt the teacher's comments were inappropriate for the classroom.

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/3987/jenniebrown6if.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Jennie Mae Brown told her Pennsylvania state representative,
Gibson C. Armstrong, that she felt a physics professor's comments
in the classroom about President Bush and Iraq were inappropriate.

The encounter has blossomed into an official legislative inquiry, putting Pennsylvania in the middle of a national debate spurred by conservatives over whether public universities are promoting largely liberal positions and discriminating against students who disagree with them.

A committee held two hearings last month in Pittsburgh and has scheduled another for Jan. 9 in Philadelphia. A final report with any recommendations for legislative remedy is due in June.

The investigation comes at a time when David Horowitz, a conservative commentator and president of the Center for the Study of Popular Culture, has been lobbying more than a dozen state legislatures to pass an "Academic Bill of Rights" that he says would encourage free debate and protect students against discrimination for expressing their political beliefs.

While Mr. Horowitz insists his campaign for intellectual diversity is nonpartisan, it is fueled, in large measure, by studies that show the number of Democratic professors is generally much larger than the number of Republicans. A survey in 2003 by researchers at Santa Clara University found the ratio of Democrats to Republicans on college faculties ranged from 3 to 1 in economics to 30 to 1 in anthropology.

Mr. Horowitz said he was pushing for legislation only because schools across the country were ignoring their own academic freedom regulations and a founding principle of the American Association of University Professors, which says schools are better equipped to regulate themselves without government intervention.

"It became apparent to me that universities have a problem," he said in an interview. "And nothing was being done about it."

Mr. Horowitz and his allies are meeting forceful resistance wherever they go, by university officials and the professors association, which argues that conservatives are overstating the problem and, by seeking government action, are forcing their ideology into the classroom.

"Mechanisms exist to address these glitches and to fix them," said Joan Wallach Scott, a professor at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, N.J., and former chairwoman of the professors association committee on academic freedom, in testimony at the Pennsylvania Legislature's first hearing. "There is no need for interference from outside legislative or judicial agencies."

In a debate with Mr. Horowitz last summer, Russell Jacoby, a history professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, portrayed Mr. Horowitz's approach as heavy-handed. "It calls for committees or prosecutors to monitor the lectures and assignments of teachers," he said. "This is a sure-fire way to kill free inquiry and whatever abuses come with it."

So far, the campaign has produced more debate than action. Colorado and Ohio agreed to suspend legislative efforts to impose an academic bill of rights in favor of pledges by their state schools to uphold standards already in place. Georgia passed a resolution discouraging "political or ideological indoctrination" by teachers, encouraging them to create "an environment conducive to the civil exchange of ideas."

While comparable efforts failed in three other states, measures are pending in 11 others. In Congress, House and Senate committees passed a general resolution this year encouraging American colleges to promote "a free and open exchange of ideas" in their classrooms and to treat students "equally and fairly." It awaits floor action next year.

Mr. Horowitz's center has spawned a national group called Students for Academic Freedom that uses its Web site to collect stories from students who say they have been affected by political bias in the classroom. The group says it has chapters on more than 150 campuses.

The student group has fielded concerns from people like Nathaniel Nelson, a former student at the University of Rhode Island and a conservative, who said a philosophy teacher he had during his junior year referred often to his own homosexuality and made clear his dislike for Mr. Bush.

Mr. Nelson, now a graduate student at the University of Connecticut, said in an interview that the teacher frequently called on him to defend his conservative values while making it clear he did not care for Republicans.

"On the first day of class, he said, 'If you don't like me, get out of my class,' " Mr. Nelson said. "But it was the only time that fall the course was being offered, and I wanted to take it."

Marissa Freimanis said she encountered a similar situation in her freshman English class at California State University, Long Beach, last year. Ms. Freimanis said the professor's liberal bias was clear in the class syllabus, which suggested topics for members of the class to write about. One was, "Should Justice Sandra Day O'Connor be impeached for her partisan political actions in the Bush v. Gore case?"

"Of course, I felt very uncomfortable," Ms. Freimanis, who is a Republican, said in an interview.

In Pennsylvania, lawmakers are examining whether the political climate at 18 state-run schools requires legislation to ban bias. Mr. Armstrong said he discussed the issue in several conversations with Mr. Horowitz "as an expert in the field" before calling for the creation of a committee.

"But I don't know if his Academic Bill of Rights is necessary in Pennsylvania," Mr. Armstrong said in an interview. "Before we have legislation to change a problem, we first have to determine whether the problem exists. If it does exist, the next question is, 'Is it significant enough to require legislation?' "

"So the question I'm asking," he added, "is, 'Do we have a problem in Pennsylvania?' "

For now, the answer is unclear. While Mr. Armstrong said he had received complaints from "about 50 students" who said they were intimidated by professors expressing strong political views, Democratic members of the committee have called the endeavor a waste of time, and the Republican chairman, Representative Thomas L. Stevenson, seemed to agree.

"If our report were issued today," Mr. Stevenson said, "I'd say our institutions of higher education are doing a fine job."
The Soviet Americas
25-12-2005, 18:19
I think we all know the reason why they put her picture into the article.
Eutrusca
25-12-2005, 18:20
I think we all know the reason why they put her picture into the article.
I can't speak for why "they" put her picture in the article, but I know why *I* did! :D
Colodia
25-12-2005, 18:22
I think we all know the reason why they put her picture into the article.
You've reminded me again to call the Florida bar and tell them to ditch Thompson. Have YOU tried it yet?
Fass
25-12-2005, 18:23
Oh, cry me a fucking river.

I have a homophobic, ultra-rightist Iranian doctor as one of my supervisors at the moment and he spills his inane political ideas all the time. Do I bitch? No. Why not? Because I'm a big boy and can handle people higher up on the ladder thinking differently from me.

So your teacher has his own political ideas that he likes to share? Big whoop. Get over it, and stop acting like a little girl. Part of life is learning to deal with this.
The Nazz
25-12-2005, 18:25
Funny how you didn't bold the quote at the end from the Republican chairman who thought it was a waste of time. Guess I ought to be glad that you didn't cut it from your cut and pasted article.

You know, it's easy to find the exceptions who are buttheaded about their politics in the classroom because they stand out. Just because there are a few dumbasses (and they exist on all sides of the political fence, by the way, even in the liberal arts, where I work) doesn't mean that there's an endemic problem as Horowitz claims.

And by the way, I have to wonder why anyone looks at Horowitz as an expert on anything, as he's been busted multiple times for being intellectually dishonest--making shit up out of whole cloth, quoting people out of context, and in one case, deleting part of a person's response in an online debate and then taking them to task for not answering the question at greater length. He's the turd in the intellectual punchbowl, and anyone who takes him seriously needs his head examined.
Eutrusca
25-12-2005, 18:25
Oh, cry me a fucking river.

I have a homophobic, ultra-rightist Iranian doctor as one of my supervisors at the moment and he spills his inane political ideas all the time. Do I bitch? No. Why not? Because I'm a big boy and can handle people higher up on the ladder thinking differently from me.

So your teacher has his own political ideas that he likes to share? Big whoop. Get over it, and stop acting like a little girl. Part of life is learning to deal with this.
Not everyone has the insight and force of will you do, Mr. Fass! :p
Eruantalon
25-12-2005, 18:26
Typical American overreaction. Why can't you just accept it that in your life not everything will be perfect; you're going to come across a few bad teachers, and there's not much that can be done about it.
Myrmidonisia
25-12-2005, 18:26
I'm ashamed that it was a physics prof that was preaching anti-Iraq politics, he should be more acquainted with logic and facts.

I wonder if the student ever 'vented' at her prof?

But, as a former physics prof, I can say that a Georgia Tech student with a valid complaint can always go to the department chair and get a fair hearing. I would be surprised to find that other university departments are all that different. Especially if that student will take the initiative to record the lecture, the comments, and any response to criticisms from the class. I don't think that legislation is needed to correct this. Only more assertive students.
Fass
25-12-2005, 18:31
Not everyone has the insight and force of will you do, Mr. Fass! :p

Those people need to have a cup of STFU and wonder if they're ready for a place of such higher education if they get bent out of shape because some teacher/professor doesn't share their political stance. He can still teach you valuable stuff - the stuff you think is crap or inconsequential, you ignore.

It's that easy.
Eutrusca
25-12-2005, 18:31
Funny how you didn't bold the quote at the end from the Republican chairman who thought it was a waste of time. Guess I ought to be glad that you didn't cut it from your cut and pasted article.

You know, it's easy to find the exceptions who are buttheaded about their politics in the classroom because they stand out. Just because there are a few dumbasses (and they exist on all sides of the political fence, by the way, even in the liberal arts, where I work) doesn't mean that there's an endemic problem as Horowitz claims.

And by the way, I have to wonder why anyone looks at Horowitz as an expert on anything, as he's been busted multiple times for being intellectually dishonest--
Don't know anything about him. I was quoting my "cut and pasted" article to generate some, hopefully, substantive debate about the issue of abuse of adacemic freedom.

I suspect you would be one of the few people who could find a turd in The Huntington Botanical Gardens (http://www.huntington.org/BotanicalDiv/HEHBotanicalHome.html) ... and focus exclusively on it.
Eutrusca
25-12-2005, 18:31
Those people need to have a cup of STFU and wonder if they're ready for a place of such higher education if they get bent out of shape because some teacher/professor doesn't share their political stance. He can still teach you valuable stuff - the stuff you think is crap or inconsequential, you ignore.

It's that easy.
Once again ... not everyone can do that.
Fass
25-12-2005, 18:33
Once again ... not everyone can do that.

Those who can't really don't belong in a place of higher learning, then, IMHO.
Suzieju
25-12-2005, 18:36
I think you'd be hard pressed to find many Universities or colleges in the western world whose faculty members aren't at the very least mostly left leaning, if not the vast majority. Its one of those facts of life, the occupation attracts more people from the economic and social left than the right. At the Uni I attend in Australia thats the case. The good lecturers won't bring much if any of they're ideological prejudices into their teaching. The annoying ones will. But the only time you can really do anything about is if they fail or give you a poor grade based on your political stance so long as in your papers you've done what the task at hand was and backed up you're arguments with evidence.
The Nazz
25-12-2005, 18:48
Don't know anything about him. I was quoting my "cut and pasted" article to generate some, hopefully, substantive debate about the issue of abuse of adacemic freedom.

I suspect you would be one of the few people who could find a turd in The Huntington Botanical Gardens (http://www.huntington.org/BotanicalDiv/HEHBotanicalHome.html) ... and focus exclusively on it.
You're the one who bolded the stuff about Horowitz, and who focused in on the sections of the article that deal with the idea that liberal instructors are indoctrinating their students, so don't give me shit about pointing out the other stuff in the article. You don't want substantive debate, Eutrusca--you want to bash and still hold onto what little moderate cred you think you have. If you wanted substantive debate, you'd have bolded the couterargument stuff at the end of the article as well, or noted the lack of balance in the article on the whole. Don't get pissy with me just because I point out your biases--if you tucked it back a little better, it wouldn't be so easy to see.
Vetalia
25-12-2005, 18:53
I don't really see the problem; as long as these professors don't factor their bias in to the actual subject material or grading system, there's no real problem with them voicing their opinions no matter how rational or ridiculous they are. (But if they start spouting total BS, I don't see any problem with a well informed student owning their asses be they conservative or liberal)
Eutrusca
25-12-2005, 18:56
You're the one who bolded the stuff about Horowitz, and who focused in on the sections of the article that deal with the idea that liberal instructors are indoctrinating their students, so don't give me shit about pointing out the other stuff in the article. You don't want substantive debate, Eutrusca--you want to bash and still hold onto what little moderate cred you think you have. If you wanted substantive debate, you'd have bolded the couterargument stuff at the end of the article as well, or noted the lack of balance in the article on the whole. Don't get pissy with me just because I point out your biases--if you tucked it back a little better, it wouldn't be so easy to see.
Fixed! Happy now? :p
The Nazz
25-12-2005, 18:58
I don't really see the problem; as long as these professors don't factor their bias in to the actual subject material or grading system, there's no real problem with them voicing their opinions no matter how rational or ridiculous they are. (But if they start spouting total BS, I don't see any problem with a well informed student owning their asses be they conservative or liberal)
Exactly, and as Myrmidonisia said, there are plenty of options if a student wants to complain. Hell, they get to make their displeasure known anonymously at the end of every term on evaluations if nothing else, and trust me, department heads look at those things very closely. Enough to get a tenured teacher fired? Probably not on their own, but enough to cost a teacher a raise or two, that's for sure. Plus, there's always the option of going to the department head, the dean, and the provost if you're not satisfied with the decision.
Philanchez
25-12-2005, 19:04
I live in Georgia qhere that ratio is probably more like 30 REPUBLICANS on the staff to maybe 2-3 DEMOCRATS, you dont see me bitching. I also have a history teacher who regularly spouts off Bush's propoganda and I like to think I enjoy it(asides from the majority fo the calss thinking im a communist...) because it causes arguments between me(the only non-apathetic student in the class) and him over whats right and wrong and why and what needs to be done. Sure he makes fun of me for being a Democrat, you dont see me bitching, but I make fun of him for being a Republican. i think that girl just takes it too much to heart and should be a little more humorous about the fact that their teacher is that insecure about their position that they have to spout it off all the time and explain why its right...
Madnestan
25-12-2005, 19:19
The thing is not as simply as many here to seem to think it to be... In all cases it is not possible for the student to have a fair debate with the teacher. Teacher makes fun of the students opinions, and when he responses with the same manner, he gets kicked out of the class. I have been there to see this happening, though not in the US.

Even though I must admit, the girl in this example seemd to be overreacting a bit.
Myrmidonisia
25-12-2005, 19:37
The thing is not as simply as many here to seem to think it to be... In all cases it is not possible for the student to have a fair debate with the teacher. Teacher makes fun of the students opinions, and when he responses with the same manner, he gets kicked out of the class. I have been there to see this happening, though not in the US.

Even though I must admit, the girl in this example seemd to be overreacting a bit.
You have to look out for yourself first. MY first reaction to hearing an offensive political statement would be to ignore it. If it permeated the lessons to the point where learning was lost, I'd go see the prof at office hours. If that failed to tone it down, I'd see the department head. With tapes. Confronting an adverse opinion in class has no possible way mitigating the situation. It can only fan the flames.
LazyHippies
25-12-2005, 19:38
This is a college level course, not a high school or elementary school course. The people in these classes are adults. They are at that university because they choose to be, and if the decide that they do not want to be exposed to political views they dont agree with in the classroom, they will speak with their wallets by moving to a different school. We don't need to protect adults from dissenting political opinions, specially when they chose to be subjected to them.
The Cat-Tribe
25-12-2005, 21:34
"Mechanisms exist to address these glitches and to fix them," said Joan Wallach Scott, a professor at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, N.J., and former chairwoman of the professors association committee on academic freedom, in testimony at the Pennsylvania Legislature's first hearing. "There is no need for interference from outside legislative or judicial agencies."

...

"But I don't know if his Academic Bill of Rights is necessary in Pennsylvania," Mr. Armstrong said in an interview. "Before we have legislation to change a problem, we first have to determine whether the problem exists. If it does exist, the next question is, 'Is it significant enough to require legislation?' "

"So the question I'm asking," he added, "is, 'Do we have a problem in Pennsylvania?' "

For now, the answer is unclear. While Mr. Armstrong said he had received complaints from "about 50 students" who said they were intimidated by professors expressing strong political views, Democratic members of the committee have called the endeavor a waste of time, and the Republican chairman, Representative Thomas L. Stevenson, seemed to agree.

"If our report were issued today," Mr. Stevenson said, "I'd say our institutions of higher education are doing a fine job."

Much ado about nothing.

A few students who somehow have the gumption to complain to the legislature or Congress, but can't speak out in class or complain to the university. So what if you disagree with something your teacher says? This is a trumped-up charge by those seeking to destroy academic freedom in the name of saving it.
Katganistan
25-12-2005, 22:35
So... we're only allowed to speak politically when it's "Yay Republicans!"? Or would you prefer that politics NEVER raise its head in class?

(Mind, I can't see why a physics prof would be talking about politics unless a student asked about it -- seems to be pretty way out for the subject -- but I want to know if it's all political views or just liberal ones that are banned.)
Earthican
26-12-2005, 00:20
What about conservative teachers using class time to talk politics? I had a conservative teacher in Grade 9 who would use classtime to talk about why liberals are bad, hell, the whole class was mostly me fighting with the teacher over ideology (liberal vs. conservative). The important thing is that we all dislike communists.
Neu Leonstein
26-12-2005, 00:28
Whatever...

Jennie Mae (what a name) can't cope with her profs jokes about Bushy. She better never watch the Today Show.

The US seems to be more fanatical about this whole left vs right thing than any other place on the planet. Not that there is a realistic difference in opinion between the Dems or the Reps, not that there is a Socialist Party there, not that anyone actually dare question the established truths.

I'm starting to think McCarthy has left wounds that might never heal.
Myrmidonisia
26-12-2005, 00:45
I'm starting to think McCarthy has left wounds that might never heal.
It wasn't McCarthy and the hunt for Communists that has the Dems and Reps divided in this century. I doubt most voters under 35 could accurately describe what 'Tail-Gunner Joe' was actually trying to do.

The extreme partisanship that is evident these days is strictly due to the waning influence of the Dems, coupled with the inability of the Reps to handle their status as a majority party.
Neu Leonstein
26-12-2005, 00:48
The extreme partisanship that is evident these days is strictly due to the waning influence of the Dems, coupled with the inability of the Reps to handle their status as a majority party.
That might even be worth its own thread.
Eruantalon
26-12-2005, 00:54
I'm ashamed that it was a physics prof that was preaching anti-Iraq politics, he should be more acquainted with logic and facts.

I wonder if the student ever 'vented' at her prof?

But, as a former physics prof, I can say that a Georgia Tech student with a valid complaint can always go to the department chair and get a fair hearing. I would be surprised to find that other university departments are all that different. Especially if that student will take the initiative to record the lecture, the comments, and any response to criticisms from the class. I don't think that legislation is needed to correct this. Only more assertive students.
Good post. I wonder why it is that no other country has felt the need for such regulation? Why only some Americans?
Gataway_Driver
26-12-2005, 01:15
Would this be news if this person supported Bush? I'm a little slow at the moment but whos going to listen to a physics lecturer about politics, i mean they are both science's but its like asking my politics lecturer about quantom theory and actually listening. The only subject you need to worry about political Bias is the Social sciences
Gataway_Driver
26-12-2005, 01:19
I'm ashamed that it was a physics prof that was preaching anti-Iraq politics, he should be more acquainted with logic and facts.


Cardinal sin - logic is very rarely used in politics and "facts" in politics are only true when the majority believes them so technically not facts. Forgive my cynicism
Kroisistan
26-12-2005, 01:27
This situation is downright ridiculous. Someone needs thicker skin and the professor really should be using her time to teach Physics, not muse on current events.

You call it political indoctrination Mr. Horn, but I say that's hyperbole. A teacher making political comments is not 'indoctrination.' Not on people old enough to grace an institute of higher learning. Political preaching? Maybe. But the idea that the liberal academics are indoctrinating college students is just silly. I submit - if a college student can be indoctrinated by a physics teacher's anti-Bush rhetoric then they don't have the mental fortitude to be in a college in the first place.

Now whether this is appropriate is a different matter. I believe that all teachers should be free to discuss politics with their students when and how they wish. I also believe that they are not required to be neutral in their views, or to be silent about what they actually believe. The only true line here should be that the discussion does not create a hostile learning environment for students who may disagree with the teacher(by hostile I mean really hostile, as in a student of a different view would have a truly hard time learning and suceeding in the environment). I don't know all the details of these Bush comments, so I can't judge whether it was appropriate or not. As such I'll err on the side of the defense and say it was acceptable and that the conservatives in the class need thicker skin.
Myrmidonisia
26-12-2005, 01:42
Would this be news if this person supported Bush? I'm a little slow at the moment but whos going to listen to a physics lecturer about politics, i mean they are both science's but its like asking my politics lecturer about quantom theory and actually listening. The only subject you need to worry about political Bias is the Social sciences
It would be bigger news. Look at the way conservative speakers, in particular Anne Coulter, are treated on college campuses. I suspect any prof that fed students a steady diet of pro-Bush rhetoric would be singled out and dealt with by the department.
Gymoor II The Return
26-12-2005, 01:55
It would be bigger news. Look at the way conservative speakers, in particular Anne Coulter, are treated on college campuses. I suspect any prof that fed students a steady diet of pro-Bush rhetoric would be singled out and dealt with by the department.

a SANE conservative wouldn't be treated like Coulter is.
Myrmidonisia
26-12-2005, 01:59
a SANE conservative wouldn't be treated like Coulter is.
Maybe not, but tell me that you believe any conservative prof could include commentary that is derisive to the liberals without some sort of notice.

The difference is that the conservatives know which side their bread is buttered on and aren't going to do things that detract from their employment. On the other hand, that doesn't silence them in other media. Guys like Mike Adams, who writes a column at TownHall.com, are fun to read because they do point out the failings of the left.
Gataway_Driver
26-12-2005, 02:08
It would be bigger news. Look at the way conservative speakers, in particular Anne Coulter, are treated on college campuses. I suspect any prof that fed students a steady diet of pro-Bush rhetoric would be singled out and dealt with by the department.

ah but would it be in the news or would it be quietly dealt with? Anne Coulter is treated (IMO) how any fanatical nut should be treated, their arguments looked at, picked apart and examined. Thats why i bought Farenheitt 9/11(Im a brit so i'm not used to spelling that word:D )
Intangelon
26-12-2005, 02:09
Once again ... not everyone can do that.

Then "not everyone" should be in college. College is the place where one's ideas are supposed to be challenged. I'm the lone Liberal in a music faculty of Conservatives at the University of Mary in Bismarck. I make a point of avoiding anything political, but will never hesitate to share my views if they're asked of me. That's what I wish everyone would do. I'm regularly hooted at faculty lunches and give as good as I get, but I always make sure any students I talk to realize that mine is not THE ONE RIGHT point of view -- that college is where they come to tune their minds after hearing as many sides of an issue as can be found.

But in colleges, you at least have a choice of where to go -- you can do some research, visit classes and profs before you enrol and all that. What I find more distressing was revisionist history and other political commentary in high schools. BOTH sides of the fence were "competing for souls" in the high school I taught at: from the history teacher who elevated Reagan as the best president ever and called FDR a Communist to the other history teacher who openly wished Columbus had sunk before reaching the Carribean...these are captive audiences being funded with tax dollars. Just stick to the facts, please, and light up your opinions ONLY WHEN THEY'RE ASKED FOR!
Gataway_Driver
26-12-2005, 02:10
Guys like Mike Adams, who writes a column at TownHall.com, are fun to read because they do point out the failings of the left.

Read my sig
Myrmidonisia
26-12-2005, 02:13
Once again ... not everyone can do that.
You know, learning discretion is a valuable lesson. Some of us go our whole lives without realizing that a tongue bit once in a while can save a lot of trouble.
Eruantalon
26-12-2005, 02:15
I suspect any prof that fed students a steady diet of pro-Bush rhetoric would be singled out and dealt with by the department.
No proof.
Utracia
26-12-2005, 02:19
This situation is downright ridiculous. Someone needs thicker skin and the professor really should be using her time to teach Physics, not muse on current events.

Sounds simple. Physics professors should teach physics. Any comments made that you don't agree with just needs to be lived with. This girl just wants her name in the news.
Gataway_Driver
26-12-2005, 02:22
Sounds simple. Physics professors should teach physics. Any comments made that you don't agree with just needs to be lived with. This girl just wants her name in the news.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I mean this has nothing to do with political standpoint, its just one person who happens to be republican trying to make a name for herself
Neu Leonstein
26-12-2005, 02:27
A possibly important fact that people might not have considered:
...who she said routinely used class time to belittle President Bush and the war in Iraq...
So does everyone else!
Apparently he wasn't actually preaching politics, he was making jokes about Bush and Iraq.

It's even more of a non-issue than we already established.
Dissonant Cognition
26-12-2005, 02:28
The student group has fielded concerns from people like Nathaniel Nelson, a former student at the University of Rhode Island and a conservative, who said a philosophy teacher he had during his junior year referred often to his own homosexuality and made clear his dislike for Mr. Bush.

Mr. Nelson, now a graduate student at the University of Connecticut, said in an interview that the teacher frequently called on him to defend his conservative values while making it clear he did not care for Republicans.

"On the first day of class, he said, 'If you don't like me, get out of my class,' " Mr. Nelson said. "But it was the only time that fall the course was being offered, and I wanted to take it."


Being a political science major, I have little sympathy for the student described above. Having to defend my own claims against the angry pitchfork-and-torches mob (i.e. my "peers") is something I have to do every day. Indeed, as I aspire to study my subject scientifically, the peer review process is vital; I demand that my claims be treated so. If a person does not want to defend his claims, then he should be redirected to the nearest preschool where he belongs.

That said, if I got myself into a load of student loan debt signing up for political science and got physics lectures instead, I'd probably be upset. If enough class time is being used on off topic material, I'm not getting what I paid for. If that is the complaint being made (which it's not in the case of the student described above), then I can sympathize.

But getting upset because someone told me I'm wrong? Sorry, no sympathy here.
Gataway_Driver
26-12-2005, 02:35
A possibly important fact that people might not have considered:

So does everyone else!
Apparently he wasn't actually preaching politics, he was making jokes about Bush and Iraq.

It's even more of a non-issue than we already established.

the only issue i see is that he's wasting his students contact time with his useless political rhetoric (in relation to physics)
Neu Leonstein
26-12-2005, 03:31
the only issue i see is that he's wasting his students contact time with his useless political rhetoric (in relation to physics)
What, little comments like "So this quantum particle bounces from one place to another and we have no idea where it'll end up - just like President Bush. Hehehehe" are such a big waste of time?
Gataway_Driver
26-12-2005, 03:52
What, little comments like "So this quantum particle bounces from one place to another and we have no idea where it'll end up - just like President Bush. Hehehehe" are such a big waste of time?

my own political back ground aside, if this lecturer is "routinely" using this sort of message they could be alieanating their students. This can damage their education. and if whatthe person complaining is accurate then it degrades the level of education.

"How could this happen?" Ms. Brown asked Representative Gibson C. Armstrong two summers ago, complaining about a physics professor at the York campus of Pennsylvania State University who she said routinely used class time to belittle President Bush and the war in Iraq. As an Air Force veteran, Ms. Brown said she felt the teacher's comments were inappropriate for the classroom.


On a side note i still don't think there is a real issue here
Myrmidonisia
26-12-2005, 04:09
What, little comments like "So this quantum particle bounces from one place to another and we have no idea where it'll end up - just like President Bush. Hehehehe" are such a big waste of time?
So you've sat in the class in question, huh?

I was wondering how one would launch out into a belittlement of a political figure in a physics class.

"Good Morning. Today we are going to continue our discussion of particle kinematics by showing how they can be represented as vector quantities. And by the way, George Bush, our greatest leader, is never wrong. Now look at Figure 3-22 on page 58."

Yeah, it all just flows together, doesn't it.
Kryysakan
26-12-2005, 04:26
On another note, why are most academics left-leaning or left wing?
They are intelligent, can see through the propaganda of the existing system and yet are not paid off like the people who run it.
Baked Hippies
26-12-2005, 04:29
Uh this has been going on for a very long time and now your objecting to it? It's like getting punched in the face and waiting 200 years and then saying "HEY! Wait a minute....".
Myrmidonisia
26-12-2005, 04:32
On another note, why are most academics left-leaning or left wing?
They are intelligent, can see through the propaganda of the existing system and yet are not paid off like the people who run it.
Good question. I can only answer for myself. I quit teaching because I didn't like it. I liked the money that one can earn in a commercial enterprise. Unless you can get some big lecture fees, there isn't a ton of money in education. Certainly not like what can be made with high tech companies that offer stock options and incentive bonuses.
Vetalia
26-12-2005, 04:32
On another note, why are most academics left-leaning or left wing? They are intelligent, can see through the propaganda of the existing system and yet are not paid off like the people who run it.

I always thought it was because they are sheltered from the real world...ZING!

But really, intelligence has nothing to do with liberalism or conservatism, since some of the strongest liberals (and conservatives) are idiots or, for lack of a better term, total losers. The greatest professors and scientists occur on both ends as well.
Kryysakan
26-12-2005, 04:49
I always thought it was because they are sheltered from the real world...ZING!

How do you mean by sheltered though? They don't make the kind of money that allows the rich to separate themselves from the masses (so for example they are far more likely to be victims of personal crime (e.g. mugging) than those in more well paid employment), and in the case of social scientists, actually study society on a daily basis.
Vetalia
26-12-2005, 05:00
How do you mean by sheltered though? They don't make the kind of money that allows the rich to separate themselves from the masses (so for example they are far more likely to be victims of personal crime (e.g. mugging) than those in more well paid employment), and in the case of social scientists, actually study society on a daily basis.

They aren't really sheltered any more than most people, at least the ones who interact with people often (like social scientists).

However, there are some that are "sheltered" in the sense that they don't have any experience in the world outside of their university, and what they do experience comes from a controlled study that is protected from the fullest extent of the world.
CanuckHeaven
26-12-2005, 05:34
This situation is downright ridiculous. Someone needs thicker skin and the professor really should be using her time to teach Physics, not muse on current events.

You call it political indoctrination Mr. Horn, but I say that's hyperbole. A teacher making political comments is not 'indoctrination.' Not on people old enough to grace an institute of higher learning. Political preaching? Maybe. But the idea that the liberal academics are indoctrinating college students is just silly. I submit - if a college student can be indoctrinated by a physics teacher's anti-Bush rhetoric then they don't have the mental fortitude to be in a college in the first place.

Now whether this is appropriate is a different matter. I believe that all teachers should be free to discuss politics with their students when and how they wish. I also believe that they are not required to be neutral in their views, or to be silent about what they actually believe. The only true line here should be that the discussion does not create a hostile learning environment for students who may disagree with the teacher(by hostile I mean really hostile, as in a student of a different view would have a truly hard time learning and suceeding in the environment). I don't know all the details of these Bush comments, so I can't judge whether it was appropriate or not. As such I'll err on the side of the defense and say it was acceptable and that the conservatives in the class need thicker skin.
Definitely an excellent post. :)

And I agree with Cat Tribe when he states "much ado about nothing".

And to throw in my two cents:

IF teachers are not free to raise dissent of the current administration and the war in Iraq, then teachers should not be free to raise pro Bush ideology and pro Iraq war propaganda? Would these objectors be willing to stifle all political debate, thus stifling "the very spirit and letter of academic freedom"?

It is a two edged sword and the whiners should suck it up.

BTW, what about military recruitment on campuses? Should that be banned as well?

Indoctrination my ass.
The Black Forrest
26-12-2005, 05:53
Let's see?

To sum it up. "WAHHHHH!!!! the big meany professor said mean things about my policitical stances. WAHHHHH!!!! he should not say such things because he is only a professor!"

Sorry sweet cheeks but you will meet many asshole professors that spew crap all the time.

However, many of them also know a great deal about their subject.

You have to learn to tune out when he goes on a tangent and tune in when it's on topic.

For me some of the worst professors were ones that only did their lecture.....
Eutrusca
26-12-2005, 06:20
It would be bigger news. Look at the way conservative speakers, in particular Anne Coulter, are treated on college campuses. I suspect any prof that fed students a steady diet of pro-Bush rhetoric would be singled out and dealt with by the department.
I suspect so too, but that's not the point that I was trying to make. The article happened to be about a physics professor who used his position to advance his particular brand of politics. In my opinion, that's an abuse of academic freedom and will, if there are enough cases to build a case in someone's mind, eventually result in limits on academic freedom. The question is: do we want to continue to allow this sort of thing to happen until someone ( Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, or whomever ) builds a case against academic freedom?
The Black Forrest
26-12-2005, 06:27
It would be bigger news. Look at the way conservative speakers, in particular Anne Coulter, are treated on college campuses. I suspect any prof that fed students a steady diet of pro-Bush rhetoric would be singled out and dealt with by the department.

A bad comparison.

That harpy spews nothing but crap.

Bitching about the President is fair game.

Got any proof a Pro-Shrub professor was punished?
The Soviet Americas
26-12-2005, 06:31
You've reminded me again to call the Florida bar and tell them to ditch Thompson. Have YOU tried it yet?


Yes. Got a polite "please fuck off" response. Basically what I expected.
The Nazz
26-12-2005, 06:39
I suspect so too, but that's not the point that I was trying to make. The article happened to be about a physics professor who used his position to advance his particular brand of politics. In my opinion, that's an abuse of academic freedom and will, if there are enough cases to build a case in someone's mind, eventually result in limits on academic freedom. The question is: do we want to continue to allow this sort of thing to happen until someone ( Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, or whomever ) builds a case against academic freedom?
That's already the case for Horowitz, even though he neglects to mention that the cases he finds--when they're not completely bogus to begin with--are few and far between. Yes, as I am a member of the academic community, I worry that idiots like Horowitz will convince idiots in the legislature that there needs to be some bullshit rules passed to protect something that's not being threatened in the first place, but I also tell myself that no rule the legislature could pass on this matter would change my teaching style anyway.

Cat-tribe is right--much ado about nothing.
Eutrusca
26-12-2005, 06:48
That's already the case for Horowitz, even though he neglects to mention that the cases he finds--when they're not completely bogus to begin with--are few and far between. Yes, as I am a member of the academic community, I worry that idiots like Horowitz will convince idiots in the legislature that there needs to be some bullshit rules passed to protect something that's not being threatened in the first place, but I also tell myself that no rule the legislature could pass on this matter would change my teaching style anyway.

Cat-tribe is right--much ado about nothing.
Come back and talk to me about this when state legislatures begin passing laws to limit academic freedom.
The Nazz
26-12-2005, 07:00
Come back and talk to me about this when state legislatures begin passing laws to limit academic freedom.
Well, even though I teach composition and deal with political subjects, my teaching style is such that my students may suspect my personal leanings, but they never know for certain. Put it this way--I had a student last term from Venezuela who went on at length about how she despised Hugo Chavez in our one on one conversations. She was one of my best students and never knew that I had a different opinion. If the work is good, it gets a good grade--that simple--and most professors are just like that.

The thing is, when most of these cases that Horowitz brings up are investigated, it winds up being students who did shitty work arguing that they were discriminated against by liberal professors (as someone else noted--liberal students don't seem to bitch about conservative professors, even though they certainly exist). That's the one constant--the work is always crap.

Horowitz has to make this sound like a big deal because he makes a living doing this kind of crap, but the actual situation on the ground is such that it's not a problem--the professors that get out of line are few and far between.
Greenspandom
26-12-2005, 07:07
Everyone has bias. The only thing to measure if how well do they hide it. So the professor is rather tactless, so what? Argue with him. I had a hardcore economic left english professor, and I used to argue with him almost every day. He was one of my favorite teachers and I came out of the class with an A. It wasn't a big deal. Are you learning physics? Is your grade being negatively effected because you disagree with the professor? If the answers are yes and no respectively, what's the big deal? There will always be someone who disagrees with you, no matter what. I've seen cases like this before, and most often, it's because they secretly think the professor has a good point and they get nervous when their beliefs are challenged.
Ralina
26-12-2005, 07:33
Yeah, even when teachers do bring end up talking about politics, whether they are trying to get the class into a discussion or because they were sidetracked by students (which does happen) your grades don't depend on whether you agree or not. I had one writing teacher who would bring up subjects trying to give us writing ideas. I am a liberal, but so was most of the class, so on any issue I would pick the opposing opinoin and would make it extreme. I would argue against the teacher and class by supporting a Christian Taliban in the US (but with more friendly words.) One day he approached me afterclass and complemented me on expressing my views. I made a 97% in that class (which is hard to do in college, in a class with subjective grading.) In a physics class, I can't see how you can have your grades descriminated against anyway, what you score is what you get, and answers are all either correct or incorrect.
Myrmidonisia
26-12-2005, 14:07
In a physics class, I can't see how you can have your grades descriminated against anyway, what you score is what you get, and answers are all either correct or incorrect.
Then your teacher isn't asking questions the right way. I usually had four or five questions on an exam, each with several parts. In the first question, I'd have the students figure out something simple in part a, then use it again in part b. That answer would be needed for part c and so on. Sometimes question 1 answers were even needed for questions 2 and so on.

Now being the reasonable fellow that I am, I gave partial credit if the student screwed up one of the intermediate steps, but did the work in the rest of the problem correctly. I know plenty of others that didn't.

In fact, I've been in classes where the prof decided, at the end of the term, that he was only going to give one A. I had a 96 average and a buddy of mine had a 95.5 after finals. It wasn't until we compared grades and went to see the jerk that we found out about the policy.

If someone wants to be vindictive, there's always a way.
Cahnt
26-12-2005, 14:31
Once again ... not everyone can do that.
True: the American right seems to find it completely impossible, for a start...
Good Lifes
26-12-2005, 17:12
Haven't read the whole thread, but as someone who has taught college classes, I see nothing wrong with exposing students to ideas they may disagree with. One of the biggest problems that has developed over the last 30 years is people only listen to those they agree with. They begin to think that theirs is the only opinion in the world and they actually have a logical reason for believing it. Comfort in ignorance. A college isn't about ignorance.

College is designed to challenge the mind. To challenge entrenched beliefs. To force the student to look from different views.

There is also nothing worse than having a class that sets on their butts and say nothing. I sometimes throw out a controversial idea just to make sure they are still breathing. I don't care if they agree or disagree, I just want them to have one thought. ANY thought. I want them to be able to defend whatever they believe in the face of opposition, not when among like thinking individuals. Anyone can defend any idea when among those that agrre with him. A person like that is as useful to society as mammary glands on a male swine. Society needs thinkers NOT repeaters.

The student should honor those that challenge their beliefs. Honor those that make them uncomfortable. This is what learing is all about.
Eutrusca
26-12-2005, 17:16
... the professors that get out of line are few and far between.
That's encouraging. :)
The Nazz
26-12-2005, 17:28
That's encouraging. :)
Yeah, I think so. People like Horowitz try to denigrate academia, try to make it seem like professors are a bunch of wild-eyed psychos who are trying to remake the world into this groupthink collective, when in reality the vast majority of professors are professionals who are just interested in passing along knowledge and, more importantly, the ability to think intelligently, along to their students. And most professors welcome challenges to their authority, especially in class--nothing is more boring as a teacher than having a class of students who dutifully copy down every word you say in order to regurgitate it on a test or in an essay.
Katganistan
26-12-2005, 17:30
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10158695&postcount=24
Eutrusca
26-12-2005, 17:59
... most professors welcome challenges to their authority, especially in class--nothing is more boring as a teacher than having a class of students who dutifully copy down every word you say in order to regurgitate it on a test or in an essay.
I tend to agree. The several college level courses I've had the opportunity to teach led me to believe that you sometimes have to give students the intellectual equivalent of a kick in the butt to get them started. :)
Eutrusca
26-12-2005, 18:01
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10158695&postcount=24
Responded to: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10159867&postcount=57
Earthican
26-12-2005, 19:27
Maybe not, but tell me that you believe any conservative prof could include commentary that is derisive to the liberals without some sort of notice.

The difference is that the conservatives know which side their bread is buttered on and aren't going to do things that detract from their employment. On the other hand, that doesn't silence them in other media. Guys like Mike Adams, who writes a column at TownHall.com, are fun to read because they do point out the failings of the left.

Read what I posted. Conservative teachers, from what I've experienced, are actually more biased on their views than liberal teachers. I've had one teacher bring up abortion, same-sex marriage and foreign policy in every single lesson despite the topic being completely different. He hasn't received any bad notices from the board of education. Basically, you'll find political bias on all sides of the political spectrum from all people, don't act like conservatives are being persecuted because they certainly are not. On the other hand, neither are liberals. I would say that with free speech there is an equal level of bias towards all political positions. It all works out in a modern democracy.
Myotisinia
26-12-2005, 19:49
COMMENTARY: Yes, academic freedom is a necessary freedom for college-level instructors, but this is just ridiculous. IMHO, any professor who indulges in this sort of political indoctrination in the classroom is not only abridging the rights of his or her students, they are violating the very spirit and letter of academic freedom. The real danger is that this sort of abuse will open the door to political oversight of universities, which which I see as definitely not a good thing.

Bravo. Well said. I agree 100%. Force-fed politics in the classroom is a huge problem, particularly at the collegiate level. Their politics should be, as Peter Jennings once said, and I am paraphrasing here, "...if you can tell my political beliefs from the way I do my job, then I'm not doing my job properly." I don't always agree with you Eut, but when I do, I always seem to do so enthusiastically.
The Black Forrest
27-12-2005, 00:42
I suspect so too, but that's not the point that I was trying to make. The article happened to be about a physics professor who used his position to advance his particular brand of politics. In my opinion, that's an abuse of academic freedom and will, if there are enough cases to build a case in someone's mind, eventually result in limits on academic freedom. The question is: do we want to continue to allow this sort of thing to happen until someone ( Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, or whomever ) builds a case against academic freedom?

The only problem is that we are dealing with adults. The Professor is hardly going to "convert" people to his political ideology.

At most he wasted some of the students time. What the difference between talking about the shrub or some issue on campus?

What matters is the end result of the students. If the professor has a record of substandard students then there is a problem.

What I find interesting is that I have only seen an "abuse of academic freedom" when the complaints are about republican and or conservative issues or politicians.
Neu Leonstein
27-12-2005, 00:45
...as Peter Jennings once said, and I am paraphrasing here, "...if you can tell my political beliefs from the way I do my job, then I'm not doing my job properly."...
Aristotle said that people are political animals, and I would agree. You can't force people to be neutral, nor would you want to.
Teachers and Professors are just as influential to young minds as friends and family. Would you outlaw parents teaching their kids their political beliefs? What about their religious beliefs?

As long as no one forces anyone to take any political or religious action, let them talk. The more ideas the kids are exposed to, the better.
Gymoor II The Return
27-12-2005, 00:55
Aristotle said that people are political animals, and I would agree. You can't force people to be neutral, nor would you want to.
Teachers and Professors are just as influential to young minds as friends and family. Would you outlaw parents teaching their kids their political beliefs? What about their religious beliefs?

As long as no one forces anyone to take any political or religious action, let them talk. The more ideas the kids are exposed to, the better.

Exactly. The marketplace of ideas is only strenthened by competition. How about we worry more about being more honest and patient with each other, rather than trying to squelch opposing viewpoints?
Daein
27-12-2005, 01:08
Oh, cry me a fucking river.

I have a homophobic, ultra-rightist Iranian doctor as one of my supervisors at the moment and he spills his inane political ideas all the time. Do I bitch? No. Why not? Because I'm a big boy and can handle people higher up on the ladder thinking differently from me.

So your teacher has his own political ideas that he likes to share? Big whoop. Get over it, and stop acting like a little girl. Part of life is learning to deal with this.

Indeed, however, I'm not sure what class he was teaching, but I wouldn't want a professor wasting MY MONEY to bitch about something.
The Black Forrest
27-12-2005, 06:32
Indeed, however, I'm not sure what class he was teaching, but I wouldn't want a professor wasting MY MONEY to bitch about something.

Well your average political rant is about 3-5 minutes depending on responses.

You have probably wasted your money much more. Ever cut a class?
Absentia
27-12-2005, 07:39
If you feel the need to get people to read a newspaper article in the future, posting a link is a better way to do it - that way you don't have to worry about possible copyright violations (or, more specifically, that way the forum ownership doesn't have to worry about them).